# 3D Printing > 3D Printers (Hardware) >  Cobblebot 3D Printer

## Brian_Krassenstein

The Cobblebot 3D printer is here, and they are looking to raise $100,000 on crowdfunding site Kickstarter.  The cobblebot printer features a huge build envelope of 15" all around.  With a build envelope of this size you would expect to spend thousands of dollars for this machine.  The Cobblebot however, is just $299 to those who back their campaign.  Below you will find some of the more general specs of this 3D printer:

Build Envelope: 15″ x 15″ x 15″Printer Speed: Current Max for High Quality prints – 150mm / sec; Absolute Max – 250mm / SecLayer Height: 50-350 micronPrinter Size: 24″ x 20″ x 20″Printer Weight: roughly 17 lbMaterials supported: ABS, PLA, Nylon, Polycarbonate, Flexible Filament, LayWood, PVA, HDPE.

More details on this printer can be found here: http://3dprint.com/8597/cobblebot-3d-printer/ . Let us know if you have backed this printer!
Below is a picture of the printer's hot end nozzle.

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## Feign

>August: finish design, make injection molds, lease production space
>September: start of part production

It's like listening to a kid go on about how he's going to be an astronaut and knowing that you_ just can't_ explain to him that he's going to be too tall to fit in the space shuttle by his genetics...

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## JRDM

I like the design, at least, moving beds have generally annoyed me. I understand why it's done, but still.




> >August: finish design, make injection molds, lease production space
> >September: start of part production


Oops!

When I got mold quotes, they generally said 3 months before it can make parts. One month is highly optimistic.

A machine of that size should be an exoskeleton, in my opinion. I don't think a consumer machine that size is going to be very fun for the user while they figure out warping on 12+" parts in an open design and without a heated bed. I do see a heated bed and enclosure are stretch goals.

The idea of a 6" 128 x 64 graphical LCD is comical. Even at 3", they're crude by modern standards. If the machine is Arduino-based, it's also going to be clunky. I much prefer the smaller text-only LCD for these machines, they're a lot more responsive.

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## Feign

I do believe that they're also underestimating the brobdingnagian paperwork labrynth they face in the process of leasing commercial space for their business.

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## JRDM

> I do believe that they're also underestimating the brobdingnagian paperwork labrynth they face in the process of leasing commercial space for their business.


Oh, yes. Probably that too. Just finding the right place can easily take over a month.

I tried looking up his work experience & business experience and didn't find anything - at least yet.

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## Koisn

I decided to back; it still seems a little fishy, but the creator has finally uploaded a coherent video of the printer actually printing on the main page. The worst the above problems could do would be delaying the production/delivery of the printer, but at least we know it's probably not a scam.

I really hope the $1m stretch goal can be met, so you can back @ http://kck.st/1qTC8NO.

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## Feign

> The worst the above problems could do would be delaying the production/delivery of the printer, but at least we know it's probably not a scam.


I never accused it of being a scam.  But the problems are a pretty good indicator that the team is in over their heads, and that can lead to a steady march to completely innocent long-term failure even with the best of intentions at heart.  But good intentions you don't get your money back after a bankruptcy any more than bad ones.

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## SystemsGuy

> I never accused it of being a scam.  But the problems are a pretty good indicator that the team is in over their heads, and that can lead to a steady march to completely innocent long-term failure even with the best of intentions at heart.  But good intentions you don't get your money back after a bankruptcy any more than bad ones.


It simply boggles my mind that they managed to raise nearly $250k with a 41 second video of someone saying "you need a big printer"?! I sorta guess that's the description of "oversold".  Some more specs have come to light - 

1] MASSIVE 76 oz/in stepper motors - they are evidently better know as "NEMAS".
2] Flexible compressible reusable aluminum couplers to support your threaded rods.
3] RepRapDiscount Hexagon hotend in the latest video.
4] Acrylic print surface.  80c Tg - keep your hotend far away.
5] Cantilevered Y supported by Z.
6] Marlin on RAMPS with a gLCD
7] 8825's running in 1/32 mode 

Acrylic print surface is is pretty much a joke, and trying to run 1/32 on an AVR is deadly - combine it with gLCD and I'm not sure you'll get 40mm/s out of it without stuttering.

The math works out until you get to the v-slot and the labor to assemble it - forget the employees, injection molding, and building leases.  I also wonder what logic they are using to design the plastic pieces - they don't appear to be optimized for IM?

I'm in for the moment - the bits cover the costs - but getting nothing when they spend it all on molds is a very likely outcome, so not sure I'll stay in for more than grins.

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## JRDM

I see so many crowdfunded 3D printers, and have known several that have been dissapointing. Makibox took 15 months and the structure is still questionable at best. Part of that delay was "mission creep", I think trying to do a pellet extruder when it wasn't promised or even development work started yet. Buccaneer reneged on the heated bed and was supposed to deliver Feb 2014. I know some people got them by the videos, but I'm not sure if they're actually done shipping the rewards yet.

There's been a couple 3D printer cancellations lately, before the campaign finished, and that was a good thing in both cases. 

Yes, he finally showed the machine printing a calibration cube, one that's a bit flawed at that. I doubt he built the Dalek or Yoda using that machine if he's later showing off the build of a calibration cube as proof the machine works.

These people are trying to outdo each other on price. And that's deadly for people that don't appear to have business, engineering or logistics experience. Most of these situations, I think you're most likely buying a box of frustrations, assuming you even get the box.

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## Geoff

So how does it work, when exactly can these guys cash in in the process? just as the goals met? or after first deliveries?

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## 3DPBuser

What about the Makibot? I thought it was supposed to be the worst KS result ever.

As for wobble, can't the speed be slowed down near the top, to reduce forces?

As for injection, yea anything less than 100,000 parts is not of much use; better to print or use pre-made parts, which is what I thought this guy was doing. Each injection mold will be 5 to $30k.

How about the Gigabot? It's huge too,  www.re3d.org/products-2/

As for KS, after funding, you get your money in about 30 days.

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## CaptainObvious

> I will be so, so disappointed if this project isnt removed by kickstarter.
> 
> I have never seen a more blatant cash grab in the history of 3D printers on kickstarter. $322,000 off a video that shows it moving without printing anything, and a 1x1 inch cube. wow.
> 
> I dont like to be the one to say 'I told you so' but I mean really, I have no sympathy for the people that back this project and never get anything. This creator will walk away with all that money and just bail once he realises the cost of building 1k printers is around $400k, so he will just keep all the money and claim 'manufacturing delays' until people eventually realise their claims for refunds will never work.
> 
> Heres a quick shopping list of critical flaws in this printer design and the campaign
> 
> 1) The cost. I'm sorry, but there is no way the printer, as is, can be built for under $299. He clearly states that the prototype cost over $1k to build and that seems reasonable. The vitamins and core components of any printer come in art around $180. Then you add things like heavier motors, the frame, LCD screens, build plates, longer rods, stiffer supporting structures for his giant machine and... the cost of actually building it which is about half a days worth of labour. I can feasibly see with all parts injection molded and with a garbage, cheap build plate, it could be bought for $299, but it couldnt be built.
> ...


So, in short, it's all a load of cobblerbots?  :Wink:

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## chbrules

They're now saying that they're looking at making the frame entirely out of metal (upgrade option for $299 backers). I'm in it for the $799 package for the 20"x20"x20" w/ heat bed and enclosure, and the metal frame is a free upgrade if they manage it. They've also printed a 7.3" ^3 box with it (pic on their KS).

Am I basically setting myself up to lose $800 here? :/ I'd like to get out of this while I still have time if need be. I'm a first-timer. Can someone suggest a good path for me to go about this? I'm familiar with programming and some EE.

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## chbrules

> That is a viable option to increase stability. 
> 
> However something THAT large made of metal? for only $799?
> 
> Think about it. the printrbot metal is like 1/20th the size using all metal, and is $540. how can he get such a large amount of metal, for so cheap.
> 
>  This doesnt solve the issue of the build plate at that size. I swear, the creator just goes 'oh ill solve this problem by designing this bigger, we will buy it later'. Where can you even buy HBP that large. a 214x214 one costs $45, how much do you think a 520x520 one will cost? its going to be insane. I dont think such a thing even exists and when Jeremiah goes to ask suppliers theyll say, yeah we can custom make 100 of them for about $300 each. And getting a small volume of parts precision cut out of metal? good god its going to be in the order of $50-$100 per part, his printer has dozens of these.
> 
> I am 100% dead certain that this printer can not exist at that price point. Do a little research yourself and youll see how expensive things are. The heated plate will literally be hundreds of $ at that size and the metal parts could total anywhere up to $1000.
> ...


Good points. I backed out of the KS pledge. I'm looking at the Printrbot, Solidoodle 4, and the Da Vinci 2.0. Any recommendations?

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## curious aardvark

> I see so many crowdfunded 3D printers, and have known several that have been dissapointing. Makibox took 15 months and the structure is still questionable at best. Part of that delay was "mission creep", I think trying to do a pellet extruder when it wasn't promised or even development work started yet. Buccaneer reneged on the heated bed and was supposed to deliver Feb 2014. I know some people got them by the videos, but I'm not sure if they're actually done shipping the rewards yet.
> 
> There's been a couple 3D printer cancellations lately, before the campaign finished, and that was a good thing in both cases. 
> 
> Yes, he finally showed the machine printing a calibration cube, one that's a bit flawed at that. I doubt he built the Dalek or Yoda using that machine if he's later showing off the build of a calibration cube as proof the machine works.
> 
> These people are trying to outdo each other on price. And that's deadly for people that don't appear to have business, engineering or logistics experience. Most of these situations, I think you're most likely buying a box of frustrations, assuming you even get the box.


speaking as someone who will never get their makibox _(was told it had shipped in march - turns out it's still in a warehouse in hongkong)_ and has moved on to a flashforge, that not only turned up in 3 days but is way better than I had hoped, can't agree more. 

You simply can't produce machines like this, for that kind of money without setting up a proper factory environment. 
 A lot of these kickstarters are hobbyists who think they can design a printer and make lots of money. 
Little thought is given to who's going to build the machines, pack them, do the taxes etc. 

That's where makible fell down. They didn't factor in all the extra labour, plus all the costs of replacing the really dodgy hotends and ended up using the money supposedly for shipping to pay wages and buy in extra parts.
They turned their office space into a large workshop and called it a factory. 

It's a salutory lesson I've learnt. No matter how good it looks, or how enthusiastic the seller/manufacturer is about their new design. If it's not being offered at a practical price - and $200-300 just isn't enough - the whole business model just can't work.

There are makiboxes out in the wild that are turning out some really nice prints. But they've pretty much all been extensively modified by their owners. 

I paid more for the flashforge, but it's a proven, practical and robust design. okay maybe a few years old now - but it works, consistently and has so far printed every thing Ive thrown at it. 
Innovation is fine - but it needs to go hand in hand with business savvy and a practical approach to manufacturing and distribution.

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## 14thcarrot

Someone did some calculations in the comment section, if they use clone parts, the cost is about 200 usd. So if the bot can print, I wouldn't call it a scam. Maybe even a good deal since I think they might be able to deliver although there will be delays.

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## 3DPBuser

Also I was reading elsewhere that since the Y axis slides on the X axis which slides on the Z axis, you get flexing that is multiplied.

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## 14thcarrot

If you only print smaller parts in pla, it'd still work. It will be slow, prints will be messy and ugly but it'll work. He's only asking for 299 anyways.
What I don't like is that he outright lied about things. On the 50 micron accuracy, here is no way in hell that printer can produce details that fine, anyone with any real world knowledge about 3d printers will know. Too bad the people in their comments section have absolutely no clue. He said that IM will be finalized by August 2nd, which is another lie. The parts look nothing like IM ready and by the looks of the prints, they're still tweaking the "design". Delivery by October? The backers won't see this thing maybe for another year, another lie. 150mm/s printing speed, a major selling point in the pitch, again will never be achieved in the real world.
Despite the lies or should I call it false optimism, if people want to buy a ridiculously cheap, low quality printer, I think that's perfectly ok. But they should know that the bot will not be fast and will not produce high quality prints even after weeks of tinkering. Now they're misled by the fancy tech specs that will never to achieved.

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## KMToydarian

Well, It's a done deal now.  I put in my 299 and we'll see what happens.  I took a chance and am putting some faith in them.  Might not be yhe polished output they thought it would be, but for 300 I may get a kit I can tinker with.

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## 3DPBuser

What drew you to it?

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## bshadown

Honestly, if you want it for standart big prints with out details yeah Its a fine deal, otherwise Its kind a scare place to go my friend

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## KMToydarian

I didn't mind putting up the 300 or so(S/H)  I know I am not buying a printer, and I could have put that $ toward an existing "real" printer.  Fun to try something new, see where it goes.  Has more going for it than some projects that are all 3d renders and slick marketing.  Thought I'd give it a shot.  Also, I am looking for making larger, simpler designs as the base for costume design, kinda skeleton pieces, not meant to be the final surface.

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## 14thcarrot

I saw this article http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/0...bottom-part-4/
I don't know how much truth is in that line of viability graph. But I do think they will lose money on this project.
Also the guy is a bankruptcy lawyer. Maybe its a coincidence but they do have a nice way out if money runs out.

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## crowbar

> I saw this article http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/0...bottom-part-4/


Cool series of articles. I think that should be standard reading before anyone is allowed to back their first printer on KS or Indienogo.

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## 3Dimensional

Here they go again: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/c...-3d-printer--2

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## SystemsGuy

> Here they go again: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/c...-3d-printer--2


Someone used this as a description...  : 

Pon·zi scheme
ˈpänzē ˌskēm/
_noun_


a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a nonexistent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.

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## curious aardvark

dunno about fraud - but there's way too much play in that movement video. It just kind of skids to a halt and bounces. 

Huge print area - but with zero precision - so what ?

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## JRDM

He didn't even show the printer making the cube until after people started objecting to a lack of demonstration. And he seemed proud of a test cube! I doubt he used his design to make the original Yoda or the Dalek in the original video, if the cube is the print he decided to post first. I notice he has added a Yoda video even later. Which causes me to think that he's finally catching up to the impression that he gave in the first place.

So the machine probably wasn't originally building parts when he made the video, otherwise, he would have included a build in the original video. Even so, making a 3" wide part is a far cry from making a 15" wide part, so I doubt it can make such a big part. There's no point believing a cheapie beginner machine can make such a large part without big problems. It will take so much extra work getting it to be useful (glass build plate, an enclosure & heated bed) that it's better to start over.

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## josephchun

Your math is way off. He will not be assembling most of the units.  At $299 they are kits.  Even the pre-assembled units will likely be opted as kits to save on shipping on most of the units.  

Who pays $25/hr to temporary assemblers?  Engineers are not required for manual labor like this.  

Taxes can be offset almost completely by deducting costs.  

Not sure what your beef is with this project but sounds a bit fishy for someone "without a horse in the race" to go out of his way to ignore simple and obvious facts to malign someone else's work.  

based on your own calculations with appropriate factors in place, this would not only be feasible but a successful model.

I agree that the acrylic plate needs to go and IF printing in abs a heated bed would be necessary.  But this project does not include one at $299 so why incorporate it as an implied or necessary cost?

Also, the printer is supposed to be capable of printing in many other materials.  PLA, as an example, would not require a heat bed or enclosure for that matter.  

I don't know for certain if he will deliver or not but the numbers work out if you bother to look at the details.  

Your post reeks of negative propaganda more than objective criticism.

If mine smells of a fanboy it's because I'm actually vested in it at $299 and want to see it succeed.

BTW, I am familiar with injection molding and the pieces are not impossible.  They will require post processing but they are workable with very minor changes.

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## dexx0008

I agree, no way this completes successfully.

As far as the heated bed comments go, the biggest i could find was 12x12. Finding one probably isn't the cobblebot creators biggest problem. cost and powering it will. It'll need a dedicated power supply just to power it.
12" x 12" http://store.quintessentialuniversal...?id_product=29

I feel bad for those who invested.

I watched cobblebot progress but chose to back a craftbot that was on indiegogo, I have much more confidence on that and @$500 it doesn't break the bank. Also, there is a sound development cycle and a creator how responds intelligently to questions. After indiegogo backers get their machines, the price will rise too to 699 I believe.

I also agree there is no way the yoda was printed on a cobblebot. The first videos that appeared on the KS showing movement were terrible. The circular movement was terribly jerky. I am sad this has found it's way to indiegogo where more people will lose money waiting for a box of parts.

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## Feign

Joseph, I can see where you're coming from, having money invested in something really does change your point of view about it.  And I can see how DJBrowny (I assume that's who you are responding to) comes across as an active propagandist.  But from looking at his history, it seems like that's just his personality rather than evidence of foul play.

And his tone aside, I can see where he's coming from as well.  When someone has had to grind through the (downright traumatizing) process of creating an actual viable and realistic business plan, it gives you a certain perspective that lets you see clearly who does and doesn't have the same experience.  And seeing some of the people who clearly didn't go through the same effort get money thrown at them on a crowdfunding site just feels like injustice.  It's very offensive.

While I agree that nobody gets _paid_ $25 per hour for unskilled work, depending on the state their work may cost around that much after payroll taxes, medicare, labor licencing, various liability insurences and depending on the state any number of general labor union and regulatory fees.  For every dollar that gets to a paycheck, the employer (if they want to stay fully legal) might pay between $1.50 and $2.25 depending on the state, city, and type of labor.  Not saying all his math is right, but it's closer than you'd want to believe.

But maybe this Jeremiah Clifft guy can pull it together and deliver on his promises eventually, I don't know.  All I can do is wish you and him the best of luck.

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## josephchun

> Joseph, I can see where you're coming from, having money invested in something really does change your point of view about it.  And I can see how DJBrowny (I assume that's who you are responding to) comes across as an active propagandist.  But from looking at his history, it seems like that's just his personality rather than evidence of foul play.
> 
> And his tone aside, I can see where he's coming from as well.  When someone has had to grind through the (downright traumatizing) process of creating an actual viable and realistic business plan, it gives you a certain perspective that lets you see clearly who does and doesn't have the same experience.  And seeing some of the people who clearly didn't go through the same effort get money thrown at them on a crowdfunding site just feels like injustice.  It's very offensive.
> 
> While I agree that nobody gets _paid_ $25 per hour for unskilled work, depending on the state their work may cost around that much after payroll taxes, medicare, labor licencing, various liability insurences and depending on the state any number of general labor union and regulatory fees.  For every dollar that gets to a paycheck, the employer (if they want to stay fully legal) might pay between $1.50 and $2.25 depending on the state, city, and type of labor.  Not saying all his math is right, but it's closer than you'd want to believe.
> 
> But maybe this Jeremiah Clifft guy can pull it together and deliver on his promises eventually, I don't know.  All I can do is wish you and him the best of luck.



thanks Feign, I can see what you mean.  however, for better or for worse, that kinda is the whole purpose of crowd funding isn't it?  if the entrepreneur is to be held to all the same standards and requirements of an SBA loan, why would crowd funding even be necessary?  I see KS and Indie as a means to raise funds for a project without the bureaucracy and stringent requirements.  The trade off is better support for creativity and the activation of projects with minimal lag but at a higher risk with little to no recourse.  There is no collateral and none of the backers will own a piece of the company or have any voting rights.  I find it offensive that people throw money at someone wearing a meat dress or using profanity like everyday language.  But I also understand that people have individual tolerances to risk and have the right to throw their money where ever they deem worthwhile.  I don't mind honest criticism, I want to see the reality of risks at hand.  However, DJBrowny who should be disinterested seems to be inflating fictional negatives so I wonder what his motives are.  BTW, if I remember correctly,  Clifft also specialized in consumer advocacy.

Clifft seems to think he can do it better.  We ALL have yet to see.  All I know is that if people can't afford to lose it, they shouldn't bet it.

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## 14thcarrot

He specializes in small business bankruptcy. 
I don't agree with DUG's math either but the cobblebot project is just extremely sketchy. Do you honestly believe that the parts are finalized and ready for IM? His updates showed many revisions of the bot and none looked remotely close to a functional prototype. And there's just no effort at all from his side, it seems like a side thing for him. No real time videos despite his clam of 1000 hours of printing, unstable floppy design from what little we get to see and he even refused to participate in the comments section, there are way too many red flags. I've been on kickstarter for a few years and this is by far the worst project I have ever seen. He doesn't have the time to take videos but no problem starting an indiegogo campaign?

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## awerby

I don't think everybody realizes that when they "pre-order" a product that doesn't actually exist yet on one of these sites  that they are actually betting in a sort of online casino. We keep seeing posts that ask whether one of these prospective machines is "better" than one that's actually on the market; as if there was any way to tell from the promotional material on their solicitations. It's entirely fair to point out to them which prospective companies have a less-than-optimal chance of actually delivering on their promises; and far from indicating a hidden agenda, it seems more like a public service. While these sites do make some dreams come true, they are also tempting targets for fraudsters that never intend to deliver anything to anyone. The more it seems too good to be true, the less likely it is to lead to a viable product. Unfortunately, the current "race to the bottom" in 3D printer pricing favors the less realistic business plans, which is what DJBrowny was tryi9ng to point out. 

Although the crowdfunding community is pretty vigilant about notifying people when it looks like someone's running a scam, they do happen. More common, though, are people simply being unrealistic about what they can do and how much it will cost. Here are some examples of both: http://www.businessinsider.com/3-kic...one-bad-2013-6 http://www.supercompressor.com/gear/...n-crowdfunding http://pando.com/2014/04/04/revealed...-medical-scam/ http://makezine.com/2013/08/02/crowdfunding-confusion/

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

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## josephchun

@carrot - I agree with the concerns you raise.  They are mine as well be assured.  However, the points you raise are real and based on facts.   Unfortunately, as I pointed out previously, DJB makes an argument based on erroneous information and makes misleading implications.  His point is well taken (ie. this is a risky investment)  but the basis for his position is flawed masked seemingly in logic.  I've simply pointed out the flaws and present a question for his zealousness.

I continued my pledge as a calculated risk that I personally deemed worth the risk.  I'm open to pointing out the many concerns with this project even beyond the few you point out.  But I don't think misinformation serves either side of the argument intended or not.

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## josephchun

Andrew - your casino analogy is apt.  Maybe I've been too harsh on DJB.  It is good to see an opposing view for balance.  Raising the question is not a crime yet I would like to see the feasibility formulation reiterated with more accurate factors.

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## weeiiee

I am the same boat as joseph.. my only concern when most of the other backers   dished out my request for a better video .. best case scenario say if the price of $299 was just at the cost.. they can still earn by getting additional cost for the upgrades since they never include the shipping on the cost unlike most of the other crowdfunded printers

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## SystemsGuy

Hopefully everyone who spends money on Kickstarter has their own model of risk vs reward.  I don't completely agree with DJB's model - I have my own - but it arrives at the same conclusion his does, and has a common base on an aggregate unpacked parts price of $200.  My model does not attempt to determine if the printer is actually viable, simply if the costs structure makes any sense at all.

Obviously for me, it does not, and combined with what I believe are fundamental design flaws and overly optimistic assumptions, add up to a load of disappointment for those who chose to gamble on this project.  I do not, and have never, believed that this was an outright scam - I do believe that Jeremiah intends on trying to bring a printer to market.

I as strongly believe that he has over stated the status of the project - 1000's of hours on numbers of prototypes; the depth of experience on "Team Cobblebot",  and has not thought about product liability or support moving forward.  I further think that he is apt to making forward looking statements with less than credible evidence; as an example he specifically states that he has received 100's of request from people who missed out on the Kickstarter, hence his desire to start the IndieGogo funding round.  The fact that the IndieGogo project opened with one funder, and has as of now climbed to the loft height of 3 seems at odds with his statements.  

I watched the Kickstarter Campaign with a bottle of beer and a load of incredulity.  I was stunned at the passion that it generated from people who had no experience with 3D printing - and the speed at which they were willing to shout down those who at least had experience with 3D printers.  I was also amazed how quickly they became experts in the course of a 30 day campaign! 

Time will tell who is right, and who is wrong.  The advantage in my mind is that if I'm wrong I'll still be able to get a Cobblebot, albeit at a premium price.  If I'm right, I might just pick up a box of Chinese V-Rail and wheels for an even lower price.






> Andrew - your casino analogy is apt.  Maybe I've been too harsh on DJB.  It is good to see an opposing view for balance.  Raising the question is not a crime yet I would like to see the feasibility formulation reiterated with more accurate factors.

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## MasterAnubis

djbowny, you have some very good and strong points.  You clearly feel something on a personal level here, especially given your defense in your sig. 

  When you give advise to your clients, is it normal to use the terms "magical world" and "unicorn land" when telling them about their business plans?    For me, this hurts your credibly and a consultant.  Don't get me wrong, I truly believe that you bring up valid and necessary concerns.  I am someone you has done a similar business analysis, I didn't pursue the business I wanted because of it.  That doesn't mean I didn't want to risk it anyway.  I know "hope" and "believe" don't really belong in a business plan with unproven designs or an unknown material cost bracket too. 

  I disagree that skilled labor is necessary for all assemblers.  This is Rigidbot factory assembly. 
No job that they show in this footage is beyond my 12yo's skill level.

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## josephchun

twice my response has been lost and not posted so I'll try it this 3rd/last time more concise than before:

less than $17 reduction from your guestimate will make this project solvent.
acrylic bed costs less from local supplier at retail.  thickness will vary cost.  since neither of us know the thickness designed, we're both guessing.
without and actual BOM we're both in the dark about actual cost.
12yo has assembled and calibrated in about 90 mins.  tech has done it in 30 mins.  your estimates of 6.5 per day for 6 months is way off.
"measly 20k" for labor is still $20/hour for 6 months. 
likely will assemble less than 100 units, the rest will be packaged as kits.  If so, $1000 should cover 6.25 days of labor to assemble 100 units by a skilled tech at $20/hour.  $2000 to cover packaging remaining 908 units for shipping at 24 units per day for less than 2 months.
this reduces your 20k labor cost to 3k that's assuming they need to hire some at all.
you can't include a 20k labor cost to assemble then claim they are 20k in the hole BEFORE shipping.  what else would the labor cost be for?  shipping itself is paid for separately by the buyers.


All of this to say that your guess is as good as mine.
 I certainly don't see the compelling reason for deeming this project impossible. 

In any case, I do appreciate your opinions and I thank you for them.

Will this printer work?  That is an entirely different question.  







> Since I now have time to reply properly
> 
> 1) I will admit that I missed that 'most' of the units will not be sold assembled, I saw multiple tiers, including one of the 299 ones claiming built and calibrated. I did not see that in fact the other, more popular $299 tiers were in kit form.
> 
> 2) I dont know about you, but I found that building a 3D printer is actually not the easiest thing in the world. Youre right you dont need engineers, but you do need people of some technical ability. People who know how to operate a drill pres, know what a socket wrench is and how big an inch is to a centimetre. We are dealing with rather complicated little gadgets and getting one thing messed up can lead to a massive loss in money. One faulty build will incur shipping back and repair costs which could easily total the amount of a new printer. If I was running a small manufacturing business where our products must be able to operate to within 0.15mm, I want smart, capable people and the thing about them, is they are usually employed somewhere else and wont work for some dodgy kickstarter company.
> 
> My use of $25/hour for assembly was based on my own experiences and knowing just how hard it is to find the right people who understand 3D printers. Its a very rare skill set to have. Personally, I would not have looked at anyone who wasnt at least some way tertiary qualified to build the printers my colleagues and I have designed in the past. If I am trusting people with my business reputation to not stuff up, I will trust people who are worth 25/hour.
> 
> Of course in the Cobblebot scenario, of course jeremiah could pay some local kids $10/hour to build his kits, or maybe get his wife or something to build a few for free every day to help start up. Tell me, would you want a printer built and calibrated by your average young-adult with no 3d printing experience? It is REALLY HARD to find people with this skill set, and Id know Ive owned a 3DP business for over a year now, found 2 people ever I would trust to operate my machines.
> ...

----------


## 3dspider

Just wondering here: djbrowny: if / when this product is shipped, will you be issuing an apology to the creators, or will you just find another project to troll?

----------


## Zenica

> djbowny, you have some very good and strong points.  You clearly feel something on a personal level here, especially given your defense in your sig. 
> 
>   When you give advise to your clients, is it normal to use the terms "magical world" and "unicorn land" when telling them about their business plans?    For me, this hurts your credibly and a consultant.  Don't get me wrong, I truly believe that you bring up valid and necessary concerns.  I am someone you has done a similar business analysis, I didn't pursue the business I wanted because of it.  That doesn't mean I didn't want to risk it anyway.  I know "hope" and "believe" don't really belong in a business plan with unproven designs or an unknown material cost bracket too. 
> 
>   I disagree that skilled labor is necessary for all assemblers.  This is Rigidbot factory assembly. 
> No job that they show in this footage is beyond my 12yo's skill level.


What that video isn't showing is more telling than what it is showing.
It isn't showing you the number of times someone has to redo something
or have someone else correct it. It doesn't show a single person taking a
parts bin to fruition resulting in a complete machine, then being calibrated
and set to print. I say "isn't" because they keep stopping the record.

It also isn't showing me a single person I'd want to know was behind the
build of MY 3D printer.

I find myself agreeing with everyting DJB stated.

I'm an engineer, granted an electrical engineer and not a mechanical one but
I do design my own circuits and the code that runs on them. I also do things
as a hobby like build prop replicas. I have looked at having things done overseas
and any order under 10,000 is laughed at. If you want to use COB then that standard
is a million or more. 

I hope for the backers sake that cobblebot comes through but with all of the nagging
questions like no evidence it can actually print anything upwards of 15" and that the
founder ignored the forum is alarming. Where else can you tell your investors to send
me an email  I'll reply but don't expect me at any meetings. Then his explanation for
the lack of a video is because his DSLR over heats. I smell BS. Now I looked into this
and it seems some DSLR camera do overheat taking video, mine does not but some do.

Then get a different camera! Jees mon, my iPhone does 1080p. Most smart phones do
and is he suggesting that as a lawyer, he doesn't have a blackberry or other smart
phone?

I do smell scam. 

He is a bankruptcy lawyer, who better to know how to skate the law.

----------


## 3dspider

I find it interesting that your only posts on here are to attack this project. 
Did you make this account for the express reason of attacking this project? And if so, why? 
It looks like you have a business selling 3d printed parts. 
So do cheaper 3d printers threaten your business model? 
Will you be attacking all similarly priced printers on Kickstarter, or have you singled out the Cobblebot for some reason?
Oh, and your prices: are they AUD, or USD?

----------


## 14thcarrot

I think the backers will receive their kits, although the bot will not work right because the design is crap. I don't think this is a scam or that the lawyer guy will take the money and run. My guess is that he came across a bunch of printer parts that some guy/company close to bankruptcy is trying to dump, and joined up with John Hobgood to cash in on this opportunity. Mr lawyer has his own online reprap printer business (this is before the KS thing), maybe its one of his suppliers that's going down, or maybe its himself. Either way, I think he's getting the parts for next to nothing and trying to get people to buy. We all can tell that he doesn't care about this project like a normal startup founder should, and he's pushing you to buy but there is not a lot of info on the actual product. He's really just cashing in on the parts.

----------


## djbrowny

OK Im done here

Everything I have said on this matter has been formally retracted as of right now (see below for timestamp)

----------


## 3DPBuser

> he specifically states that he has received 100's of request from people who missed out on the Kickstarter, hence his desire to start the IndieGogo funding round.


I think you can re-launch on KS too; no need to go to IGG.

----------


## Zenica

14thcarrot,

Your explanation is very plausible and the more I think about it, seems very very likely.

It is the "missing link" explanation that accounts for all of the variables. The name of
his printer even fits...he happened upon these parts and cobbled a printer together with
the intention of selling the parts.

----------


## MasterAnubis

3DPBuser, I don't agree with that "strategy" either.  That number of backers could have been made up with a good long video.

Zenica, I did say "for all assemblers".  Believe me, I understand how important calibration is to everyday life.

djbowny, The camera thing is just silly excuses for sure.  There is video and pictures of a GoPro in shot!  There is no excuse for not putting up video. Even if an upload takes two days to get a large HD video posted on YouTube, that time will (and has) passed.

----------


## LambdaFF

> 4) My 'beef' with the project is that I cant stand reading all the comments of backers who wasted money.


I really support you on that.




> djbowny, you have some very good and strong points.  You clearly feel something on a personal level here, especially given your defense in your sig. 
> 
>   When you give advise to your clients, is it normal to use the terms "magical world" and "unicorn land" when telling them about their business plans?


In my line of work we say "le monde des bisounours", and we build helicopters for a living, can you believe it ? 
Bisounours_bandeau_994.jpg

----------


## Zenica

> yet they struggle to sell machines coz all the 'new 3d printer' money is  being funneled into kickstarter printers which never deliver


This right here is as critical as the possibility that backers may never see that parts bag.
The collateral side effect is a legitimate start up may fail because a "business" that never
intended on delivering is both absorbing money and leaving consumers with a negative
impression of the industry.

----------


## 3DPBuser

Funny thing is, if the cobble were truly a cobbling of already-made parts, it might help. Such as ready-to-purchase ABS corner blocks for rods to slide into; ready-cut rods; wiring and controller from another printer. Sounds like a reprap kit.

----------


## SystemsGuy

> I think you can re-launch on KS too; no need to go to IGG.


KS won't let you relaunch until you fulfill your current obligations.  AFAIK, there's never been an attempt to "Refund & Relaunch" - and remember KS took their 5% off the top, along with 3-5% to Amazon..  In any event, he didn't sell all his KS slots, and is still languishing sub 5 additional units sold on IndieGogo - didn't realize backers there were that much smarter than Kickstarter - guess those 100's of folks looking for printers changed their minds.




> 14thcarrot,
> 
> Your explanation is very plausible and the more I think about it, seems very very likely.
> 
> It is the "missing link" explanation that accounts for all of the variables. The name of
> his printer even fits...he happened upon these parts and cobbled a printer together with
> the intention of selling the parts.



I'm not sure I buy this one - if all he were trying to do was capitalize on a stock of parts, why go to all the sillyness of an unproven design?  If he'd simply copied a more traditional design and kept the price at $299, he would have sold at least the same number.  If he'd actually had a video of a working printer, I'm convinced he'd have touched $1m.

I do feel for 99% of the current backers.  The 1% of the backers who don't own printers but were the comment section "experts" are at least as culpable as Jeremiah - and deserve what's delivered.

----------


## Nemesis

I was backing that project for a while up till the last day. Most of my questions were technical in nature and only the simplest ones were answered directly by the creator in emails. The rest were somewhat answered by over-enthusiastic backers. Without even looking into the finances of it, I believe that not one of those printers will ever create decent prints without major modifications to its design. It doesn't take much thought or research to understand that its just not going to work to the specifications stated. Anyone interested in 3D printing who doesn't have deep interest in fabrication AND have technical problem solving and reasoning skills akin to those of mechanical and electrical engineers and a propensity for stubbornness perhaps should take up another hobby. I probably did convince a few dozen people NOT to invest in it by just stating obvious facts and calling out people who seemed to be paid off to back that project. Unfortunately, fools and their money are soon parted. No amount of effort or reasoning will convince them otherwise.

----------


## SystemsGuy

Latest update says everything is perfect; they are buying a filament company, and filing patents and defamation suits!

----------


## Zenica

"defamation suit"?

That is comical. John Pinette kind of funny...and that is saying something considering John was a riot to see in person!

Nothing to do or say but wait, time will reveal all hidden truths....and lies.

----------


## 3dspider

> "defamation suit"?
> 
> That is comical. John Pinette kind of funny...and that is saying something considering John was a riot to see in person!
> 
> Nothing to do or say but wait, time will reveal all hidden truths....and lies.


Considering you appear to be one of the people who only registered here to slam this product... why don't you tell us all why you feel like trolling this product? eg. what do you gain if Cobblebot fails?

----------


## Zenica

Not trolling, observing. 

Frankly I am observing the cobblebot progress because I would like it to succeed. I am in contact with
a few of its backers to have some things printed, utilizing the 15" print area. So while I want these printers
to come to fruition, my gut tells me it won't. The fanboy club on the forum they setup is disturbing. People
expect more communication when getting their car serviced but sending this guy money and hearing crickets
is ok with them.

Ignorance is bliss.

----------


## LambdaFF

> Considering you appear to be one of the people who only registered here to slam this product... why don't you tell us all why you feel like trolling this product? eg. what do you gain if Cobblebot fails?


I don't think anyone has much to gain by a company making wild claims and going under. If anything, it will fuel deception on this technology and crowdfunding and might prevent actual projects from going forward. And everybody loses somewhat from that.

I worked a lot in manufacturing and now in customer support. My guts tell me that 300$ is low for an assembly with so many components with "fixed price" (e g motors, slides, ...), but still doable (not talking about the quality of the end result here). What it does not include is support, warranty, room for failure and recovery. And that is not a way to do business : there's always mishaps, and that's life so you have to have some margin to recover. That is only my personal feeling and I wish everybody well. But this story and another similar seen on this forum did make me rethink my personal expectations towards crowdfunding in general.

----------


## 3dspider

> I don't think anyone has much to gain by a company making wild claims and going under. If anything, it will fuel deception on this technology and crowdfunding and might prevent actual projects from going forward. And everybody loses somewhat from that.
> 
> I worked a lot in manufacturing and now in customer support. My guts tell me that 300$ is low for an assembly with so many components with "fixed price" (e g motors, slides, ...), but still doable (not talking about the quality of the end result here). What it does not include is support, warranty, room for failure and recovery. And that is not a way to do business : there's always mishaps, and that's life so you have to have some margin to recover. That is only my personal feeling and I wish everybody well. But this story and another similar seen on this forum did make me rethink my personal expectations towards crowdfunding in general.


First, let me say this: I don't usually expect a crowd-funded product to meet commercial standards. The cobblebot is no exception. However, I will support any company that brings down the cost of 3d printing. 

  One of the big problems I see with most crowdfunded projects is when they hire a person to do full time customer relations before they start shipping a product. If the Cobblebot fails to fulfill its first "early-bird" orders, then I'd expect to see concern over it. Then they could hire a customer service rep to do "updates". Until then, all these concerns people have are unfounded. 
  As far as the cost goes, they will probably take a slight loss on the "basic" $299 models, but will make up for that on upgrades. For instance, a heated bed costs $150 extra. An extra hotend? $90. An Enclosure? $145. Also, the creator has stated that he already has funding and the kickstarter was more of an effort to get his foot in the door as it were. 
  Anyway, we'll see. I am willing to give him a chance. 

(Crowdfunding in general is like investing in the stock market... Don't spend what you can't afford to lose. You may receive a payout, you might not. It's a gamble either way.)

----------


## djbrowny

In light of what has gone on here,

If it wasnt painfully obvious, everything stated here was my opinion based on my experiences. If anyone ever construed what I said as fact, well that is their own fault. I made it fairly clear throughout here that everything was my opinion, I doubt something, or made assumptions.

*Therefore in the interest of making things perfectly clear, I retract all that I said on this project.* I have always believed it is possible to deliver them at $299 and I did state that, I just worried that the machine is going to have issues printing objects full size and the timeframe to deliver given lead times on injection molds. My assumptions on viability assumed a large-person team on a salary and this project might not have that. Again, clearly I never made that it was fact what I said.

Then again, with $383,000 you can have a decent amount of bargaining power.

Good luck to the backers of this project. With some DIY mods it probably could work really well.

----------


## SystemsGuy

I think it's pretty clear that all stated in this thread is speculation and opinion based on information that's publicly available about the project.  There are very few "facts" released about the printer other than what the creator has stated on the pitch page of the kickstarter project.  I guess in two months we'll all know how that plays out.

----------


## Bloodgroove

> So how does it work, when exactly can these guys cash in in the process? just as the goals met? or after first deliveries?


That's a good question, although I wouldn't exactly say they will "cash in" necessarily.  That kind of implies they aren't actually intending to do much work once they get the money.   I have run a Kickstarter campaign before though, and you receive the seed money a few days after the goal is met.  You do not have to meet any production criteria to receive the money.  The system works on an honor basis.  Obligation to fulfill your promises are implied by a project creator's decision to use Kickstarter as a funding platform.

----------


## Brian_Krassenstein

Anyone see this?  http://3dprint.com/58371/cobblebot-shipment/

Holding back shipments now if you 'defame' them on internet forums.

----------


## soofle616

Wow, that's ballsy. Here's some defamation for you Cobblebot:

You're morons with no business sense of any kind. For the act of suing or even threatening to sue those who helped build your business based on on the promise of a product that they paid for your principles deserve to fall into the deepest pit of bankruptcy. It is my sincere hope that you are publicly shamed for your immoral acts and lawfully blocked from continuing to do business (or whatever it is that you've been doing with all those people's money) in texas or anywhere else.

----------


## JRDM

The whole thing was pretty shifty. The fact that he has a lawyer despite the meager budget only puts the legitimacy of the campaign into further question.

The first campaign was haphazardly run, it looks like he didn't even have a running 3D printer when it was first posted. The first video of a running 3D printer was posted a  9 days later, of a *calibration cube* being built. Despite that, he gave the impression that printer built a Yoda and a Dalek in the original video, and there's no reason to believe that was true.

----------


## SystemsGuy

> The fact that he has a lawyer despite the meager budget only puts the legitimacy of the campaign into further question..


The fact is he is a lawyer, which makes it pretty easy and cost effective to issue C&D letters as and where he feels appropriate.  I find it more surprising that they have shipped printer kits but not included the instructions for assembling them than the fact that this is their fourth round of sending letters to suppress what they feel are defamation. 

It would seem shipping a working printer would solve 90% of the problems alluded to in the posts I've read.

----------


## soofle616

Yeah but thats how business people work. Lawyers don't understand that suing isn't the only way to silence your critics. Nor do they seem to get that it frequently results in more and much more vocal critics than what you started with.

----------


## JRDM

> The fact is he is a lawyer, which makes it pretty easy and cost effective to issue C&D letters as and where he feels appropriate.  I find it more surprising that they have shipped printer kits but not included the instructions for assembling them than the fact that this is their fourth round of sending letters to suppress what they feel are defamation. 
> 
> It would seem shipping a working printer would solve 90% of the problems alluded to in the posts I've read.



Wow, I didn't know he's a lawyer.

This site shows him as an inactive license as of last month:
http://www.avvo.com/attorneys/77063-...t-1773415.html

It might be worth following up on that if he gives anyone any more lawyery grief. Practicing law, or even 'practicing law' without a license might get him in trouble.

I wouldn't be surprised if "fourth round" was BS. I doubt a business can threaten to sue its customers without it coming out much quicker than the "fourth round".

----------


## JeffBlack

While I am much more pleased with the recent article compared to the last one, there are still some thing I have issue with.

Yes, they have shipped some printers, but the article implies (at least to me) that numerous printers have shipped and people are happy with it. So far I know of 2 people receiving the kit. A pre-order and a SEB backer. Neither got any instructions on how to build. After contacting Cobblebot and some back and forth, Cobblebot told Mike why but doesn't want anyone to know why and said he would receive instructions soon.




> I wouldn't be surprised if "fourth round" was BS. I doubt a business can threaten to sue its customers without it coming out much quicker than the "fourth round".


I wouldn't be so sure.
Some people would be too scared to publicly admit that someone had sent them a cease and desist letter as they may feel that that could result in further legal action, or them not getting their printer.

I was banned from their forums (and all my posts deleted) "pending review for defamation by their legal department" in early December.
They then later sent a cease and desist letter in early January for negative remarks towards them on the cobblebot google+ group (not hosted or run by cobblebot). (giving 3 statements I made)
Then, in early February when their little monster Kickstarter was almost complete they sent another email stating " Cobblebot Inc. is currently reviewing the totality of your actions and determining damages, which is expected to be in excess of $100,000" conveniently the goal for the little monster Kickstarter, money they wouldn't have had if the Kickstarter wasn't successful.

I asked for evidence of the falsity of the claims I had made that they deem defamatory and are yet to receive a response.

So there is at least 2 or 3, and of course we have DJBrownies sudden retraction of all his comments and stating it is "just his opinion". I suspect he received a cease and Desist as well.


P.S. the links in the article seem to be missing their "//" to make it link here.

----------


## DonnellWilliams

> While I am much more pleased with the recent article compared to the last one, there are still some thing I have issue with.
> 
> Yes, they have shipped some printers, but the article implies (at least to me) that numerous printers have shipped and people are happy with it. So far I know of 2 people receiving the kit. A pre-order and a SEB backer. Neither got any instructions on how to build. After contacting Cobblebot and some back and forth, Cobblebot told Mike why but doesn't want anyone to know why and said he would receive instructions soon.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be so sure.
> Some people would be too scared to publicly admit that someone had sent them a cease and desist letter as they may feel that that could result in further legal action, or them not getting their printer.
> 
> I was banned from their forums (and all my posts deleted) "pending review for defamation by their legal department" in early December.
> ...



It's all scare tactics. My roomate is a jr lawyer and this happens on a regular. People who are not knowledgeable gets spooked, this they accomplished their mission. C&D letters are nothing. They can be written up by any lawyer. It doesn't even have to be a valid case yet. Lawyers have nothing to lose doing this. It's when they follow through with a valid suit is when it gets serious. In most of these matters, there's no defamimation if the party has just been stating events that has happened. he would be wasing a lot of money to file a suit which would get thrown out. The other party should file a countersuit for criminal harassment and threathening conduct which he would win easily. Judges hate snobby lawyers who threaten consumers. They beat DJBrowny with this scare tactic becuase he wasn't knowlegeable and is a coward.

Heck if this ever goes to trial, Jeff, start a gofundme. You can personally hold me to at least $500 in donation and I'm sure more will support you in wiping the smirk off Jeremiah's face. It's a slam dunk case from the messages i've seen from you in public. You have more going for your countersiuit than he has for defamination.

----------


## JRDM

Yes, in my experience, threats to sue are 99% empty. The fact he doesn't respond to a serious inquiry suggests he's not serious. Also, if you're not in Texas, Texas law doesn't apply to you.

That said, this is a good reason to use handles for accounts that aren't under your real name.

----------


## DonnellWilliams

> Yes, in my experience, threats to sue are 99% empty. The fact he doesn't respond to a serious inquiry suggests he's not serious. Also, if you're not in Texas, Texas law doesn't apply to you.
> 
> That said, this is a good reason to use handles for accounts that aren't under your real name.


Handles won't hide you from anything if the case was real. A lawyer would just have the webhost and isp subpoenaed to get your mailing addresss. Of course this would mean for a lawyer to have a real case and all the legal paper work for this to happen. Unless a user make his mailing address public or somehow finds him to hand the letter in person. He just has Jeff's mailing address because he was a backer which made it convenient to be easily sent a C&D. 

Again I'm sure Jeremiah himself knows he doesn't have a case here. But it costs him nothing to serve a C&D letter to someone who doesn't know any better to shutup. Unless you are some competitor running some smear campaign and reporting falsefied information about them you are protected by the First Amendment. Do you know how many defamation lawsuits Obama would win if someone said anything bad about him?

----------


## JeffBlack

It appears they have updated their TOS. 
Section 5 now also states: 
"You agree only individuals that pledged for the $499 and $999 Kickstarter reward tiers will receive an assembled unit."
and 
"Our products do not come with a warranty by default, but you may purchase a warranty separately. The electronics included in our kits are delicate and we have no method of determining if customers handle them safely and properly. Improper handling can easily cause damage to the electronics. All electronics shipped are considered to arrive in working condition. Therefore, should you choose to not purchase our separate CobbleCare warranty, electronics will not be replaced if you later determine they are damaged or otherwise not working."
Section 13 also has the statement about the electronics arrived in working condition.
They made a few changes turning "Terms of Service" into "Terms and Conditions"
And they added this to section 22: 
"You agree that should Cobblebot Inc. make an exception and refund any money associated with the purchase of a Cobblebot 3D printer, that there is a $300 restocking fee associated with the refund of Cobblebot 3D Printers.
Should Cobblebot Inc. make an exception and refund your post-Kickstarter upgrade purchases, you agree that receiving a refund of your post-Kickstarter upgrade purchase is also an agreement that you are forfeiting your Kickstarter pledge. Agreeing that you are forfeiting your Kickstarter pledge means you agree that you are not entitled to a refund or any other form of compensation for the donation you made to Cobblebot Inc. on Kickstarter."

So now the SEBs that wanted an assembled unit are no longer entitled to one and if they complain and want a refund it will cost around $600.

Also, if the electronics are broken, tough. You need to replace it.

Don't you just love their attitude?

----------


## 3dspider

Yeah, I now retract all defense of them. Criticize away. They had their chance to deliver on their promises, they've failed.

----------


## Blackstar

Well, I'm here to add my tale to the tale of others.  I too backed cobblebot.  I'll be honest, I really want that printer as there are a lot of things about it that I like.  I'm not going to give a lot of info about the conversation's I've had with them, but let's suffice it to say they are treating me pretty bad.  They won't give any information on when I'll get my printer or simple detailed questions about the printer itself.   

I was encouraged by several state attorney generals that I have spoken to over the last several weeks to file official complaints against them, as due to the fact they met their funding goals, they are legally obliged to deliver product.  That is per Kickstarter's terms and conditions that anyone seeking funding must agree to.   Sounds like several state attorney generals are very interested in a nice  little wrapped up class action suit that could form out of this.   

The are rather nasty and unhelpful when asking them simple questions as well as if they have no time for the people who helped fund their company and their product.

- Blackstar

----------


## NoahSH

Seems like the guy should start his own law firm. The way that he made a warning about circumventing the security feature of the PDF. Get real. Even if they deliver they are not setting themselves up very well to run a business long term. All the warnings and law suits are only a sign that the people in charge are afraid. And you can't make a successful business if you are afraid of your customers!

----------


## nka

Just participating with instant of threatening customer would have helped a lot. I'm sure someone would have come with instructions (so they dont even have to do it !!).

Can't wait from them to have all printer delivered to see them die and/or having a massive law sue again them !

----------


## MiniMadRyan

I wonder what their motive is at this point. Are they actively trying to commit fraud and use false legal claims to silence their users, and have no intention of delivering any printers? Though I haven't seen the build guide, releasing it would seem to imply they are still trying to deliver or at least produce printers, which if that's the case, why would they alienate their users with such heavy handed tactics. 

Or is the product that bad, and they know it's that bad, but don't want to take the time to correct the issues that they just keep pushing ahead and use their 'legal' tactics to silence any reviews or comments about it...

----------


## JeffBlack

I would say they are trying to deliver something to try and avoid a lawsuit for non-delivery of goods.
I also believe that they are significantly overcharging for it especially on shipping where they are charging around double (or more) for some people.

But yes, it is quite a bad product.

In order to make it work you need to support the entire gantry system from one side, making it lean meaning it will be next to impossible (without additional items) to have good prints.
The attachment for the build plate is absolutely pathetic.
The bearings they have provided are horrible and are difficult to turn.
They have provided the wrong size shims/spacers so when tight the bearing assembly seizes, and for the idlers, they didn't have any shims so the bearing is pressed against the plate making it useless.
The electronics are substandard, with at least some being counterfeit arduinos, with at least one being DOA.
Numerous people have been getting A4988s instead of DRV8825 (numbers may be wrong).
People are also having issues with the stepper motors.

And they have modified their T&Cs to state that if electronics are broken, you need to fix them.

So I would say it is a very bad product.
They appear to want to make money and don't care how they go about doing it and seem to be quite happy to threaten their customers/others if they dare to point out their negative attributes.

----------


## JeffRand

I have had it with Jeremiah (CEO of Cobblebot). He just posted that people, like me, that have been shipped the wrong parts, will have to wait until the very end to receive the correct parts. I was backer #84 and in the October Super Early Bird group. And, because they screwed up and sent me the wrong part, I will have to wait until they have shipped all of the other parts to everyone else. When will that be? December? 

This is the worst Kickstarter I have ever backed. They had me hooked with a fully assembled 3D printer for only $299. Then after the campaign ended, I was told that getting the fully assembled printer would cost me $225+ to get it shipped. So, I was forced to go with the "cheaper" shipping ($75) for a pile of parts. Then I'm told that I should get the "highly recommended" metal upgrades, so I pay an additional $160. Now it turns out that if I hadn't paid the extra $160 dollars, I would have received the same parts everyone else is receiving. And to top it off, because I didn't upgrade to the metal LCD enclosure, I'm now told that I won't receive anything to protect the electronics. I'll have to come up with something on my own. So, at this point I've sunk $535 into this and I still have no working printer. I'm still waiting for instructions and firmware, in addition to the fitting I need to connect the tubing to the hotend.  

I really feel like I was deceived on so many levels. I wonder if that was the plan all along? This whole fiasco reminds me of bait and switch fraud. I'm so frustrated right now, I could scream. This has been a very costly lesson for me. I hope sharing my experience saves someone else from making this same mistake.

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## mcw

@JeffRand I feel for you, but starting from where you are now (and after all, that's where you are!) your best bet is to buy the Bowden fitting elsewhere and stop trying to get Cobblebot to behave in a reasonable manner.

BTW I can think of only one reason why they haven't released the firmware, and that's because they don't yet have a working non-prototype printer – i.e. even they can't build a working printer out of the bits they've sent you all. That would also explain why there is no evidence, at all – not a single photo or video – of a production cobblebot. It would also explain the lack of full build instructions. Note that this is my opinion – you are free to form your own.

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## Blackstar

The Attorney General of Texas was very interested in what they are doing.  They did say they wouldn't do anything for one person.  However, if a bunch of backers got together, they said they would be happy to look at a class action lawsuit against them for their shady practices.

Might be something to consider.

Blackstar

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## wire10ga

> I really feel like I was deceived on so many levels. I wonder if that was the plan all along? This whole fiasco reminds me of bait and switch fraud. I'm so frustrated right now, I could scream. This has been a very costly lesson for me. I hope sharing my experience saves someone else from making this same mistake.


+1000
Right there with you.  I feel it is a bait and switch on the kickstarter pledge.  I even paid the extra $225 to get the assembled printer and they still sent me the kit.  I sunk around $800 into this POS printer and still did not get what I was promised, and didn't get my $225 back. They said that I was because being mean to them (I asked when they would ship and if I should have my credit card reverse the charges ) and that did not want my business.  Fine but give me my money back. Don't send me a KIT when I paid for an assembled unit.  I really think it is cause they don't have a fully working printer or the software to run it.  From what I see, they have no clue as to how to run a business unless it is trying to sue / scare their customers.   Heck they don't even have a full set of instructions on how the build the stupid thing.  I got burned, but I have learned one thing, stay away from any company who is run by ex lawyers.  As the old saying goes " There is no honor among thieves!"

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## nka

> The Attorney General of Texas was very interested in what they are doing.  They did say they wouldn't do anything for one person.  However, if a bunch of backers got together, they said they would be happy to look at a class action lawsuit against them for their shady practices.
> 
> Might be something to consider.
> 
> Blackstar


Where can I sign in as "interested" ?

I want :
1) The wheels that have been promised (they say on a video "extreme high quality part"), with proper bearing and/or washer - Those are not high quality at all... in fact, notthing is high quality.
2) My Arduino DOA (I had to use my own!)
3) LCD Plate that fit.
4) Maybe better stepper... mine seems weak as hell, can't ever move the printer correctly (my spare stepper from the delta is working right) - But this part might be my fault, i'll try with the Smootieboard later.
5) An actual design that work. There's no way this one could work right !

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## Blackstar

> Where can I sign in as "interested" ?
> 
> I want :
> 1) The wheels that have been promised (they say on a video "extreme high quality part"), with proper bearing and/or washer - Those are not high quality at all... in fact, notthing is high quality.
> 2) My Arduino DOA (I had to use my own!)
> 3) LCD Plate that fit.
> 4) Maybe better stepper... mine seems weak as hell, can't ever move the printer correctly (my spare stepper from the delta is working right) - But this part might be my fault, i'll try with the Smootieboard later.
> 5) An actual design that work. There's no way this one could work right !


I'll get the details and post it here.  
-Blackstar

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## Hatter

> I'll get the details and post it here.  
> -Blackstar


I'm in as well, if the design had a chance to live up to what they promised, there wouldn't be a the need for this. As it stands, I'm not even convinced that I'll receive it, so I'm waiting, and once I receive my parts, I'm betting it will cost a couple hundred extra to fix the design.

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## nka

It's not just that... I would have been frustrated (a lot), but would have turned the page and fixed the things myself, but they are threating customer with law and acting very badly IMO. I think they deserve there "own sauce" for not delivering what they promissed.

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## Blackstar

> It's not just that... I would have been frustrated (a lot), but would have turned the page and fixed the things myself, but they are threating customer with law and acting very badly IMO. I think they deserve there "own sauce" for not delivering what they promissed.


Well, this is what I was told.  First of all, everyone who is unhappy with either their product they have received, (or not not yet received), needs to file a complaint at the following links:

Federal Trade Comission - Web Complaint Form : https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/#crnt&panel1-1
Texas State Attorney General - Web Complaint Form: https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov...umer-complaint

From there, the AG will determine what they are going to do.

We also have an option to contact an attorney in Texas to see if they will do some sort of a class action lawsuit against CobbleBot.  I am still researching this option myself, but obviously, the more people who get in on something like this, the more enticing something like this becomes for an attorney.

There is also the option to file a complaint with the internet fraud agency at http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

- Blackstar

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## L3f7y

Blackstar thanks for the posts.

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## Binderbin

Thanks Blackstar for the info I will be looking in to it this weekend. I also purchased all recommended upgrades and the astro print which is still in the box. I am a January backer and still have not received my final invoice. Which according to Cobblebot all invoice were supposed to be finished today

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## notthreatened

Hi guys. I just wanted to let you know that I've been talking to attorneys in Texas, and working to build a case against Cobblebot and it's owners for deception, bait and switch tactics, among other things.

I can't promise I'll check both forums, but here is my original post: http://cobbleflop.cohesion3d.com/t/suing-cobbleblot/167

Please feel free to add to anything else that is not as promised, or received.

Thanks,
Paul

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## Blackstar

I'm supposedly receiving mine soon.  We'll see what happens, but I'll be onboard with you.  From what people who have received theirs have said, a lot of the promised stuff isn't showing up.  This was my first thing I've ever backed, and so far I'm really disappointed with the nasty responses to my inquiries and everything.  If everything they promised isn't lived up to, they deserve a lawsuit.

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## toddlamp

I am part of the Vanguard/Little Monster Kickstart project and they're at it again.  The promo video and even the FAQs state that the unassembled Little Monster was going to fit and ship in a USPS Priority Mail Large flat rate box.  The FAQ says "How Much Will Shipping Be?  You can get a good estimate of what shipping costs for a Cobblebot Little Monster will be by going to usps.com and calculating the costs of a large flat rate box originating from the zip code 77377, USA."  I live in Maryland; zip 20724.  USPS says $17.90.  What did CobbleBot end up wanting for shipping?  $60.  I thought this might make sense if they got the dimensions wrong and had to ship it in two packages or there was added insurance etc. so I inquired.  I was baffled when they said that the shipping cost was business confidential information.  And when I asked a follow-up question just to ask what carrier they were going to use.... 

ME: "Good morning. Can you please tell me what carrier and service my Little Monster will be shipped by? For example will this be sent via UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc.? Also can you please tell me what service for the specific carrier that will be used? For example UPS Ground, FedEx Home, USPS Priority Mail Express, USPS Parcel Post, etc.?"
CobbleBot: "I am afraid your account has been suspended for wrongfully and continuously accusing Cobblebot Inc. of wrongdoing as well as harassing the support team. This means that support personnel are no longer available to respond to help desk tickets from you. You will still receive help desk messages regarding the packaging and shipping of your Cobblebot 3D printer once your shipping invoice has been paid (like tracking numbers), but you will no longer receive responses to any inquiries submitted. Have a wonderful labor da

i have filed a complaint with the BBB and the Attorney General of Texas.  During my Google searches I saw a Reddit post:

"Call Channel 2 in Houston and tell your Cobblebot story to the media at Click2Houston. Channel 2's consumer advocate wants to hear about your issues! Contact Tera at 713-222-2222. " (https://www.reddit.com/r/CobbleFlop/...bleflop_story/)

I went to their website and submitted an inquiry.  Maybe I will call today to see what they want to know.  It would be quite interesting if the media got involved.  Might be worth looking into for others.

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## Blackstar

I just called Tera, and her direct number is 713-778-8947.

Blackstar





> I am part of the Vanguard/Little Monster Kickstart project and they're at it again.  The promo video and even the FAQs state that the unassembled Little Monster was going to fit and ship in a USPS Priority Mail Large flat rate box.  The FAQ says "How Much Will Shipping Be?  You can get a good estimate of what shipping costs for a Cobblebot Little Monster will be by going to usps.com and calculating the costs of a large flat rate box originating from the zip code 77377, USA."  I live in Maryland; zip 20724.  USPS says $17.90.  What did CobbleBot end up wanting for shipping?  $60.  I thought this might make sense if they got the dimensions wrong and had to ship it in two packages or there was added insurance etc. so I inquired.  I was baffled when they said that the shipping cost was business confidential information.  And when I asked a follow-up question just to ask what carrier they were going to use.... 
> 
> ME: "Good morning. Can you please tell me what carrier and service my Little Monster will be shipped by? For example will this be sent via UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc.? Also can you please tell me what service for the specific carrier that will be used? For example UPS Ground, FedEx Home, USPS Priority Mail Express, USPS Parcel Post, etc.?"
> CobbleBot: "I am afraid your account has been suspended for wrongfully and continuously accusing Cobblebot Inc. of wrongdoing as well as harassing the support team. This means that support personnel are no longer available to respond to help desk tickets from you. You will still receive help desk messages regarding the packaging and shipping of your Cobblebot 3D printer once your shipping invoice has been paid (like tracking numbers), but you will no longer receive responses to any inquiries submitted. Have a wonderful labor da
> 
> i have filed a complaint with the BBB and the Attorney General of Texas.  During my Google searches I saw a Reddit post:
> 
> "Call Channel 2 in Houston and tell your Cobblebot story to the media at Click2Houston. Channel 2's consumer advocate wants to hear about your issues! Contact Tera at 713-222-2222. " (https://www.reddit.com/r/CobbleFlop/...bleflop_story/)
> 
> I went to their website and submitted an inquiry.  Maybe I will call today to see what they want to know.  It would be quite interesting if the media got involved.  Might be worth looking into for others.

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## sioboop

Blackstar, 
What is the status of a potential lawsuit? I ordered a Beast and I have not received one piece of the device. All of my attempts to contact them thru Kickstarter and their website have gone un answered. I have received the third party software,  that is all. Can you help?
Siobhan

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## ServiceXp

No surprise with the outcome of this campaign.

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