# 3D Printing > 3D Printers (Hardware) >  Can't decide between Replicator 5th Gen, Ultimaker 2, and Robo3D R1

## atoff

Hi everyone, I've been reading every article I can get my eyes on this past week, but I still can't decide which to go with.  There's very little information about the Makerbot Replicator 5th Generation.  It was the printer I was originally going to purchase, but after doing a bit more research it seems to be priced so much higher than its competition.  This will be my first 3D printer, however, I want something that prints with exceptional quality (for the price).   The Replicator is a bit pricey for one limited to PLA at 100microns.  For $700-800 I could purchase the Robo3D with a larger platform, which also prints at 100microns. 
On the other hand, for about the same price, perhaps a couple hundred cheaper, I could go with the Ultimaker 2, which offers a larger platform and 20micron resolution.   Of course, the quality of the prints from the Makerbot could be significantly better, I just don't know.  I read the article from Make magazine comparing many of the new 3D printers for 2014... there was no mention of the 5th gen, but they did compare the Ultimaker 2 to the Replicator 2, and they gave top mention to the Replicator 2.  I'd imagine that with the new Replicators auto-leveling it wold be even better.  

I am just utterly and completely indecisive on this whole thing.  I'd LOVE to be able to spend only $800 on a 3D printer!!  But if quality and ease are going to be much better, I'm willing to spend the $3k.

I'm hoping to get some opinions and insight.  Can anyone help me make this tough decision?

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## DrLuigi

Well i would take the ultimaker 2 if you have the cash, Its a great printer all around, very silent and you wont have to bother with it when you have it that much,

Robo3D has some problems, Problems that can be solved! But they are still problems,
Also i've heard that the stock hotend is pretty bad and you should replace it with another hotend asap.

So like i said, I personaly would go with the Ultimaker,
The first or the second, thats up to you,
If i could decide again, it would be a decision about money, If i had enough, i would take the ultimaker right away.

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## atoff

> Well i would take the ultimaker 2 if you have the cash, Its a great printer all around, very silent and you wont have to bother with it when you have it that much,
> 
> Robo3D has some problems, Problems that can be solved! But they are still problems,
> Also i've heard that the stock hotend is pretty bad and you should replace it with another hotend asap.
> 
> So like i said, I personaly would go with the Ultimaker,
> The first or the second, thats up to you,
> If i could decide again, it would be a decision about money, If i had enough, i would take the ultimaker right away.


I was impressed by its specs, definitely... is there a reason you'd take it over the new fifth gen Replicator, consider it would be the same cost?  I ask because Make seems to believe the Rep 2 is superior to the Ultimaker 2, and since the new Replicator has auto-leveling, I figure that's a very big plus.  Thanks, appreciate your input on this.

edit: I think it's also important to note the larger user base for the Makerbot.  I just hate that it's so expensive when it's limited to filament type, lack of heat bed, and resolution.  But again, could still produce better quality work, I just don't have experience here.

edit #2:  Bummer, just realized the Ultimaker 2 uses 2.85-3mm filament... not that popular here in the U.S.  Much easier to find 1.75mm, though if the quality is that much better with the UM2, I'd still be willing to go with it.

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## jimc

is there a reason you are stuck on only those 3 printers? there a ton of really great machines out there. to name a couple look at a makergear m2 or a zortrax

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## atoff

> is there a reason you are stuck on only those 3 printers? there a ton of really great machines out there. to name a couple look at a makergear m2 or a zortrax


Well, I had narrowed it down to those 3 based on reviews, youtube videos, and popularity (or hype).  The Makerbot was a safe purchase for me, since it came with an option for a cheap 3-year Squaretrade warranty (from the reseller I was planning to purchase it from).  I also really like the fact that it has guided leveling.  It's suppose to be very simple, and I need that because I have a condition with my back where I'm unable to stand for very long (not more than about 5-minutes at a time), so the less tinkering I need to do, the better.  I'm a bit hesitant in ordering from overseas for the lack of support / parts availability, but the Ultimaker had great reviews wherever I looked.  Everything about it sounds great.  The Robo 3D, well, it's not as impressive, but the price is just absurdly nice for its features.  If I could get away with spending 1/4 the cost for something with just as good print quality, I'd be good.

Taking a look at some videos of the Zortrax in action, I'm very impressed!  I think you just made my life a lot more difficult! lol  I went through several Youtube videos, and the prints look fantastic.  The build size is adequate, and I can go as low as 25 microns.  Though, as I've heard, I know that layer resolution isn't everything.  But, it looks like it'll support a large variety of filaments, and that I like!  My only concern here is that it's international, and there isn't an auto-leveler.  

 I'll just have to see if I can get a separate Squaretrade warranty if purchasing internationally if I go with one of these others.  

I hate how restricted the Makerbot is... I'm trying to convince myself that it's the way to go because of how large the user base is.  Everyone's raving about them, and they're always being praised by reviewers, there has to be a reason for that... but the lack of options with filaments, and the resolution annoy me.  It does have some other great features... there's just no examples yet, so I can't judge it too well... for all I know it's going to blow the rest of these printers out of the water with print quality.  

I remain stuck.   :Frown:

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## jayceekeys

I am going to be watching this thread VERY closely lol. I am in exactly the same position and was waiting to order a Replicator 5th gen within the week. I have a reprappro mono mendel at the moment and just want something more stable. I have just seen this and looked at the Zortrax too ! It looks awesome! I just feel the same .... Do I go for the makerbot just because there will be way more out there and likely more developement and support from users ?
Jay

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## DrLuigi

> Well, I had narrowed it down to those 3 based on reviews, youtube videos, and popularity (or hype).  The Makerbot was a safe purchase for me, since it came with an option for a cheap 3-year Squaretrade warranty (from the reseller I was planning to purchase it from).  I also really like the fact that it has guided leveling.  It's suppose to be very simple, and I need that because I have a condition with my back where I'm unable to stand for very long (not more than about 5-minutes at a time), so the less tinkering I need to do, the better.  I'm a bit hesitant in ordering from overseas for the lack of support / parts availability, but the Ultimaker had great reviews wherever I looked.  Everything about it sounds great.  The Robo 3D, well, it's not as impressive, but the price is just absurdly nice for its features.  If I could get away with spending 1/4 the cost for something with just as good print quality, I'd be good.
> 
> Taking a look at some videos of the Zortrax in action, I'm very impressed!  I think you just made my life a lot more difficult! lol  I went through several Youtube videos, and the prints look fantastic.  The build size is adequate, and I can go as low as 25 microns.  Though, as I've heard, I know that layer resolution isn't everything.  But, it looks like it'll support a large variety of filaments, and that I like!  My only concern here is that it's international, and there isn't an auto-leveler.  
> 
>  I'll just have to see if I can get a separate Squaretrade warranty if purchasing internationally if I go with one of these others.  
> 
> I hate how restricted the Makerbot is... I'm trying to convince myself that it's the way to go because of how large the user base is.  Everyone's raving about them, and they're always being praised by reviewers, there has to be a reason for that... but the lack of options with filaments, and the resolution annoy me.  It does have some other great features... there's just no examples yet, so I can't judge it too well... for all I know it's going to blow the rest of these printers out of the water with print quality.  
> 
> I remain stuck.


I would still take the Ultimaker realy,
Its just better, as quality goes i think it will be better aswell,
It has a heatbed, very silent, great slicer program etc,

You can check this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXnNmwFWXV0
Also autoleveling isnt a big deal, Once you set it right with manualy you get the same thing.

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## atoff

The UM does look great, no arguments there... I made a quick comparison chart, just so I can reference it when comparing.  These are just the overall specs... now I'm down to these 3.

Also, I did see that video when researching the UM... It's unfortunate he received it with a broken fan, the quality didn't impress me, he should have done a review AFTER fixing the issue.  

3DPChoices.jpg

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## DrLuigi

Zotrax also seems like a great printer imo,

Only i hope it will also print PLA, else thats a bummer as ABS warps quiet easily.

i would say Ultimaker or Zotrax realy.

Kinda find it akward ultimaker only gives 3 months warranty, i thought netherland had a minimum of 1-2 years of warranty on all eletronics


But ye ive seen this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V0Lw0OUFx8
And find it a nice printer, might be louder then the ultimaker 2 since thats very quiet but still, i bet zotrax isnt even that loud.

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## atoff

Yes, those 2 do seem to be winning the battle, the Makerbot, just seems to be lacking for that hefty price tag.  Yeah, the Ultimaker warranty is kind of scary.  I tried to find out if I could get a Squaretrade (third party) warranty for either the Ultimaker or Zotrax, but I wasn't given a clear answer.  I called twice and spoke to two different people... the first told me that because the MFR is international they wouldn't be able to cover it, the second told me that it would be covered.  I'll need to wait and speak to a supervisor to be certain.  

Definitely about the PLA... if it doesn't print PLA then I'll have to pass.  I'm also unsure about it's positional precision.  1.5 microns doesn't seem possible, especially for XY, so I'm going to assume it's completely false. I do like the price though.  The filament size for the UM really bothers me though... being in the U.S, it's not very popular / abundant.  

Nice video on the Zotrax, it does seem really loud though.

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## cobalt

I have owned both the Makerbot Replicator 2 and the Ultimaker 2. I purchased one of the early MB Rep2's and sold it after 2 months of frustration. It did not have the upgraded parts that MB provided later after I sold it.
I did my homework after the first purchase disappointment with the MB. The conclusion I came to was that the Ultimaker 2 was the one to get. I purchased it from MakerShed and saved on the shipping costs that Ultimaker charges. The new UM2 was very nicely finished. It seemed more refined than the MB2. I carefully set it up and to my happy surprise I started printing successfully right from the start. Then after a few days the problems started happening. Clog after clog after clog. I searched the web for answers but found few as I had one of the first machines in the US. At first Ultimaker was responsive and tried to solve my problems. After many hours of searching for the problem, I FINALLY discovered what was causing all my grief. I contacted Ultimaker many times to let them know of the problem with the filament feeder design but thats when they totally stopped communicating with me. The knurled sleeve that attaches to the filament stepper motor kept slipping. It is held on to the round shaft of the stepper motor with a tiny tiny set screw (poor design IMHO). Once this tiny set screw loosens the filament can no longer be fed properly. OK you would think it's an easy fix...just tighten the tiny set screw. MUCH EASIER said than done!!!!! Access to the tiny set screw is totally blocked unless the stepper motor is removed. This requires dismantling parts of the printer. This takes about 2 hours to do. Then the problem is that the set screw is so tiny it's not possible to get it real tight so it will, as it did on my printer, come loose again. After fixing this 4 times I finally gave up on the Ultimaker 2 and returned it to MakerShed. I wish the factory would have admitted the design weakness and come up with a solution because the quality of prints it is capable of making is outstanding. Hopefully Ultimaker has corrected this design flaw...if they have then it is a fantastic printer but if they have not then I would look at other brands. 
FYI...MakerShed was absolutely great to deal with. I would give them an A+++ for outstanding customer service.

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## RAMTechRob

I am ordering a Makerbot Replicator 5th Gen in a week.  I will let you know how it does.

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## jimc

zortrax has their own pla in the works but you dont have to use their filament either. it will print anything....pet, nylon, abs, pla just like any other machine. the hot end is all metal so i believe is good for 300+ deg. one of their selling points is that its quiet but ive never heard it in person. that printer puts out about the cleanest prints i have seen from an fdm machine. dell just purchased 5000 of them for their employees. 

while im sure makerbot is a fine machine i have always felt there is nothing special about them and they are waaayy over priced compared to everything else. there is just nothing there to justify the price they ask for them. i just dont get it. you get a nice pretty package for the money and the rest is all big name marketing. no offense to rob. i will be curious to hear your review.

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## DrLuigi

> Yes, those 2 do seem to be winning the battle, the Makerbot, just seems to be lacking for that hefty price tag.  Yeah, the Ultimaker warranty is kind of scary.  I tried to find out if I could get a Squaretrade (third party) warranty for either the Ultimaker or Zotrax, but I wasn't given a clear answer.  I called twice and spoke to two different people... the first told me that because the MFR is international they wouldn't be able to cover it, the second told me that it would be covered.  I'll need to wait and speak to a supervisor to be certain.  
> 
> Definitely about the PLA... if it doesn't print PLA then I'll have to pass.  I'm also unsure about it's positional precision.  1.5 microns doesn't seem possible, especially for XY, so I'm going to assume it's completely false. I do like the price though.  The filament size for the UM really bothers me though... being in the U.S, it's not very popular / abundant.  
> 
> Nice video on the Zotrax, it does seem really loud though.


Ye he also says that, But he told in youtube that its kinda the camera that picks up the noise to well,

I doubt it will be that noisy

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## jayceekeys

Well since I read about the Zortrax I have done masses of reading up about it and I have to say, I am likely not going to order a 5th Gen from MBI. 

I contacted them on their forum and uploaded a few STLs of items that I was having problems printing with my RepRapPro Mendel, asking whether the Zortrax would likely be able to print them reliably.

What happened next is what is impressing me the most - one of the Zortrax employees posted that they had taken my files and were going to print them all (one is really big too), so that I could see photos of how they turn out, so I could see what difference their machine would make to my printing. I am waiting for the demo pics, but have to say I am MEGA impressed as it will really give me an idea of what the machine is like with MY prints. 

That really shows incredible customer service - something it seems that some people have doubted previously. I'm sure others may have their own opinions, but for me they have been spot on.

At the moment the M200 only does ABS, but the availability of other material profiles is imminent. Plus, it not like that's a handicap - even the MB 5th Gen can only do one material type on launch and but there is no plan whatsoever of them changing this in the future. ABS is probably more useful anyway to me.

So for me the plan is wait and see how my files print and then if everything is good it will be a Zortrax order later this evening!

Thanks for the advise and tips guys.

Cheers,

J

ps if anyone wants to read the answers to the extensive questions I posed to them earlier then here's the link:

http://zortrax.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=351

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## atoff

> I have owned both the Makerbot Replicator 2 and the Ultimaker 2. I purchased one of the early MB Rep2's and sold it after 2 months of frustration. It did not have the upgraded parts that MB provided later after I sold it.
> I did my homework after the first purchase disappointment with the MB. The conclusion I came to was that the Ultimaker 2 was the one to get. I purchased it from MakerShed and saved on the shipping costs that Ultimaker charges. The new UM2 was very nicely finished. It seemed more refined than the MB2. I carefully set it up and to my happy surprise I started printing successfully right from the start. Then after a few days the problems started happening. Clog after clog after clog. I searched the web for answers but found few as I had one of the first machines in the US. At first Ultimaker was responsive and tried to solve my problems. After many hours of searching for the problem, I FINALLY discovered what was causing all my grief. I contacted Ultimaker many times to let them know of the problem with the filament feeder design but thats when they totally stopped communicating with me. The knurled sleeve that attaches to the filament stepper motor kept slipping. It is held on to the round shaft of the stepper motor with a tiny tiny set screw (poor design IMHO). Once this tiny set screw loosens the filament can no longer be fed properly. OK you would think it's an easy fix...just tighten the tiny set screw. MUCH EASIER said than done!!!!! Access to the tiny set screw is totally blocked unless the stepper motor is removed. This requires dismantling parts of the printer. This takes about 2 hours to do. Then the problem is that the set screw is so tiny it's not possible to get it real tight so it will, as it did on my printer, come loose again. After fixing this 4 times I finally gave up on the Ultimaker 2 and returned it to MakerShed. I wish the factory would have admitted the design weakness and come up with a solution because the quality of prints it is capable of making is outstanding. Hopefully Ultimaker has corrected this design flaw...if they have then it is a fantastic printer but if they have not then I would look at other brands. 
> FYI...MakerShed was absolutely great to deal with. I would give them an A+++ for outstanding customer service.


Yikes, thanks for the info.  I'm somewhat leaning towards the Ultimaker 2 now because of Jay's post in the Zortrax forum (see below).  Apparently, they have no intention of supporting g-code, or other software options... from what I understand, and anyone please correct me if I'm wrong, you're stuck with their Z-Suite slicer.  There's also the fact that they'll not be offering the ability to print without a raft, and some other obstacles here and there with their proprietary tech.  These are definitely deal breakers, especially being locked into the Z-Suite software.  Otherwise, everything about it sounds great!  It's just so damn disappointing... it seems like the perfect printer to date, then they completely screw it up with all of the tight restrictions.  What a shame.




> zortrax has their own pla in the works but you dont have to use their filament either. it will print anything....pet, nylon, abs, pla just like any other machine. the hot end is all metal so i believe is good for 300+ deg. one of their selling points is that its quiet but ive never heard it in person. that printer puts out about the cleanest prints i have seen from an fdm machine. dell just purchased 5000 of them for their employees. 
> 
> while im sure makerbot is a fine machine i have always felt there is nothing special about them and they are waaayy over priced compared to everything else. there is just nothing there to justify the price they ask for them. i just dont get it. you get a nice pretty package for the money and the rest is all big name marketing. no offense to rob. i will be curious to hear your review.


Good to know about the filament, but from what I've been reading in their forums since we'd be locked into using the Z-Suite software, would we not be restricted in the options available for the other filaments?  For example, printing in PLA is best on glass without a raft correct?  But apparently, you cannot swap out the bed, because you'd be unable to calibrate in the z-axis.  They also mention that they will not be offering the option to print without a raft.  

I guess now my gripe is with being locked into their proprietary software.  

I'm leaning more and more towards the Ultimaker 2, but they have issues as well.  I hate the fact that it uses 3mm filament, and am now worried about whether or not they fixed the issue with the filament feeder that Cobalt had experienced.  The lead time is awful too.  10 weeks.  




> Well since I read about the Zortrax I have done masses of reading up about it and I have to say, I am likely not going to order a 5th Gen from MBI. 
> 
> I contacted them on their forum and uploaded a few STLs of items that I was having problems printing with my RepRapPro Mendel, asking whether the Zortrax would likely be able to print them reliably.
> 
> What happened next is what is impressing me the most - one of the Zortrax employees posted that they had taken my files and were going to print them all (one is really big too), so that I could see photos of how they turn out, so I could see what difference their machine would make to my printing. I am waiting for the demo pics, but have to say I am MEGA impressed as it will really give me an idea of what the machine is like with MY prints. 
> 
> That really shows incredible customer service - something it seems that some people have doubted previously. I'm sure others may have their own opinions, but for me they have been spot on.
> 
> At the moment the M200 only does ABS, but the availability of other material profiles is imminent. Plus, it not like that's a handicap - even the MB 5th Gen can only do one material type on launch and but there is no plan whatsoever of them changing this in the future. ABS is probably more useful anyway to me.
> ...


Jay, I read your post on the Zortrax forum earlier today.  I've been going through that forum myself, trying to do as much research as possible.  Good to hear that they're going to be receiving a large shipment around the 15th.  I'm pretty bummed however about being tied into that Z-Suite software, otherwise, yes, their customer service seems pretty good.  The prints look fantastic, it's becoming a tough decision between the UM2 and the Zortrax.  I think I've abandoned the 5th Gen Replicator... just don't think it'll be on par with these two.

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## jayceekeys

Hey atoff,

Yes ... we're in exactly the same position!


Beyond anything, I just want a printer that is bulletproof - something that gives me awesome prints without being a printer god dialling in a million different variables into the slicing engine - all of which seem to be dependant on each other to get that perfect combo that produces a good print. I had a VERY hard think about the MB 5th and also the ultimaker 2. I already have a reprap that can use all the opensource programs such as Cura, Slicr, etc etc etc. I'm not getting on well with having a printer that doesn't come bundled with matching software as its a case of guessing the right combo of machine, configuration, temps, extrusion values, filament diameters, fill percentages and the list goes on. So I am concerned that if I buy a printer that doesn't come with a matching software that I won't be able to dial the two into each other.  

I was initially concerned about buying a printer from a company that was less renowned than MBI or similar, just in case I end up tied to a software that never gets finished.


BUT ......


I figure, if Dell have bought 5000 printers, there is no way on earth that they would get away with leaving them with all those printers without them being able to print perfectly and without working software. Dell must have faith in them and their product enough to commit!  I believe they are also delivering the contract in several batches - so Zortrax know that they have to deliver the working perfect software very quickly - or risk not getting the remainder of the orders? They are probably one of the few persons that have tested all of the printers (including the MB 5th Gen) so I am going to follow their lead - plus I have seen the quality of the prints and the feedback on the printers. During the research I have done I spotted that Dell are actually selling MBI new printers - BUT they are actually using a different printer for their own company? It kind of tells you something doesn't it!! LOL 


I am really on the edge of ordering the Zortrax - especially as they are printing the parts for me to see (although I think they have probably left them to finish overnight). I can't ask for better service than that. As soon as I see the finished parts I am going to place an order (provided they look good).

Cheers,

Jay

PS I know some people prefer open source rather than closed software, but I have a reprap and I just need a printer that is reliable and high quality in print. For others, they have more skill and perhaps time than I do so its just personal preference for each person I guess.

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## jimc

The only true way to get a trouble free click and print experience is unfortunately with closed source. when you start intermixing slicers and plastics from other manufacturers there are just too many variables there. i have no problems using their software. why would you use a different slicer anyway. if their setup, printer, slicer and plastic gives great results then there is no reason to use something else. they have worked all the kinks out of it.  atleast its abs. mb your stuck with pla which is about useless for anything that doesnt sit on a shelf. if you want a super quality open source printer then give a look at the makergear m2. a usa company that has been around awhile and you cant get better customer support.

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## atoff

> The only true way to get a trouble free click and print experience is unfortunately with closed source. when you start intermixing slicers and plastics from other manufacturers there are just too many variables there. i have no problems using their software. why would you use a different slicer anyway. if their setup, printer, slicer and plastic gives great results then there is no reason to use something else. they have worked all the kinks out of it.  atleast its abs. mb your stuck with pla which is about useless for anything that doesnt sit on a shelf. if you want a super quality open source printer then give a look at the makergear m2. a usa company that has been around awhile and you cant get better customer support.


Well, I believe there's plenty of reason to want to use different software or filament.  There's a wide variety of filament choices out there, with some fantastic colors, or experimental filament, such as laywood that I would love to try.  I'm not sure whether or not the Z-Suite software has the option to custom adjust things like temperature and speed, or whatever else might be necessary to use these filaments.  Do you know whether or not that option is available?

I did take a look at the M2, it looks great too.

I'm pretty much stuck between the UM2 and the M200 though, I am completely unsure which to go with.  It is aggravating trying to decide.  The UM seems to have a more active / larger community as well, not to mention the fact that I'm able to purchase from a U.S. seller.

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## jayceekeys

Ok so yesterday I ordered a Zortrax M200. In the end they made it supper easy for me - I was asking whether the type of parts I had been tying to print on my old machine would be better on their machine. Next minute they had downloaded my files and were printing the parts off in their factory so that I could have close up photos to actually see the finished article - incredible quality and superb customer service so it made the deal for me! The photos are ok their forum :

http://zortrax.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=351



Cheers,

Jay

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## huberbobas

Well if you would like your prints bottom to look like this then buy zortrax M200
http://zortrax.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=249
http://zortrax.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=176

If you would like to get banned on zortrax M200 forum, comment how bad these prints look like, or post some critics about their printer.

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## huberbobas

And come on do you really believe about 1.5microns positioning accuracy with belts? Then you need to go and  ask about it in some CNC forum, have a good laugh...

Did I mention they doubled filament cost for EU users?

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## jayceekeys

Huberbobas, thanks for your comments, you seem pretty passionate about them !

I know all of the things you mentioned and I did take the same things on board before I arrived at my decision. 

I am saddened by the fact that for many on forums, they get quite angry because someone else does something that is perhaps at odds to their own approach. No one is right, we all have different views and opinions and we just make our decisions based upon what is best for each individual person. As jimc said, the only way some of us can get the standard of prints that are reliable and acceptable is by going for a printer that is closed source and bundled with pre-tested software. For you, you obviously have far better skills and experience than me so it's not the right printer perhaps for you - it's great because you get more flexibility and less cost for the extra time and skill you invest. You're lucky, but it doesn't mean that others who are less fortunate are wrong by default.

With respect to specifications in brochures, they have little influence over my decisions. I am wise enough to realise that what you get is what you see rather than what a company always says.

The fact that the prints they did of my own STLs came out as I wanted was why I was happy. Hopefully I will be content with the results - that's all I want  :Smile: 

As for the raft - I've been in reprap long enough to try all of the usually things - hairspray, kapton, painters tape, heated bed, slurry etc etc etc and now I just want it to stick - if there method appears to do this and save me having detached prints then I'm happy with that compromise.

All the best,

Jay

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## huberbobas

How zortrax wants to improve their closed source printer if anybody else opinion is disregarded? 
I too like you am forced to take a fact that for now zortrax is very good printer, cel robox comes next but limited built volume 10cm height is making it more a toy than a tool.

Yes your parts printed OK, because they are mechanical parts, rectangular etc. They not figurines with various surfaces that do not print OK from bottom side.
Zortrax does not reply to inquires about what components they use for their printer.
i can buy for example made in china lm8uu bearing for 8$, SKF bearing for 45$ - and I don't think they will work the same do you?

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## Martin Olchanowski

> And come on do you really believe about 1.5microns positioning accuracy with belts? Then you need to go and  ask about it in some CNC forum, have a good laugh...


http://calculator.josefprusa.cz/ 20-tooth GT2 pulley 1/128 step mode you can count it how many microns is it, math vs good laugh.


I wrote also longer answer for other gossips which you create but I think it is also waste of internet space //smile


Best Regards
Martin

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## jimc

huber, lets be fair here. have you seen that print that julia did. thats a very difficult print for any fdm printer. i dont think any of us could have done any better with any of our setups. overall that print came out great

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## Dhatw

Hello all this is my first post here, I am a newbie but have a strong mechanical background. I am also a Zortrax M200 owner. My first print ever right out of the box was the white calibration piece (see link). The Hitman figurine has some flaws but it was done at 50% and that is how it looks right after removing the support material. The Rook has support material inside that I could not remove, rookie mistake, I should not have used support. The bearing is emaculate and spins freely. Anyways just my 2 cents. I am a very happy Zortrax owner but I cannot compare to other printers since this is my first printer. 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ci0zf6gay5u72yr/GUcKYgLnAp

Dhatw.

----------


## huberbobas

@*Martin Olchanowski* 

Pulley accuracy? Really? I mean declared printer precision is for a system of mechanical components as a whole, measured with instrumentation not theoretical precision. Stating theoretical precision instead of measured one and not mentioning is let's just say not being honest to your customers.

Now instead of being sarcastic with smiles as your last word, why not post the component list you chosen for your printer? If it's such a big secret then maybe just mfg brand names will do? It's up to you. Ultimaker had no problems with this, spiderbot too they even sent me calibration data showing 0.02mm precision from head to print table.

Any honest company in EU gives 2 years warranty, you give one, and want companies to purchase a warranty for additional 300eur because you give none. That does not inspire any quality related thoughts.

----------


## huberbobas

> huber, lets be fair here. have you seen that print that julia did. thats a very difficult print for any fdm printer. i dont think any of us could have done any better with any of our setups. overall that print came out great


Well to judge quality maybe the first thing to do (especially if you a company representing your products) would be to learn some macro photography, or hire somebody who can do it for you. The zortrax print photos do not show print lines that as we know are always present in FDM prints, unless they have been smoothed.

About bottom surfaces of curved parts you must be crazy to say that, there are many printers that have similar things printed way better. Zortrax is yet another made in china printer.
http://www.zbot.cc/en/products.asp
http://blog.colorfabb.com
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/MINGD...618548099.html
http://www.mankati.com/fullscale-xt1.html

The Chinese at least posts better photos.

----------


## jayceekeys

Ok well ..... 

This was my first contribution to this forum. I joined because I was considering buying a 5th gen MBI. I then learnt about the Zortrax and subsequently placed an order.

Can I say that I am absolutely sick of this forum already and as a result will likely not use it again - so frankly I don't give a damn whether this comment results in my removal from the forum even.

Why oh why oh why do some people have to post in an angered and offensive manner? From what I see most people are kind, helpful and constructive in their posts. For others, it is simply an opportunity to propagate bitter and rude comments against those to which do not deserve it.

datw, jimc, Martin and all the others that have been constructive, I thankyou for your help.

To huberbobas - perhaps if you were to post exactly why you are angry with either the Zortrax product - or even life in general, someone may be able to offer help to you too. Maybe you have owned a Zortrax and been disappointed? If so simply say and perhaps your view would be a little better understood? Maybe you have showed an interest and made enquiries on their forum and were treated poorly? If that's it, likewise say so - although quite frankly if they were rude to you I would have to comment that it may have rightly been earned if you conducted yourself in a similar manner on their website. I believe someone stated that they had even been banned - I would have done that myself if you spoke to people the way you have on here.

Put simply - you come across as a highly judgemental and bitter individual that seems to derive great pleasure from sarcastically criticising others.

Your comments are unfair entirely - stating honest companies give 2 year warranties in the EU is rubbish. The legal standard is 12 months. Look at MBI even worldwide who I have never really dealt with and they have offered zero warranty without paying - mainly because it is new technology that in general is hacked within a month of receipt! So one year is normal and actually very good in this field. You state that they are poor because they do not release their Intellectually owned property (material, firmware and software designs etc), and this makes them bad because you know better than they do and want to comment on their business model, procurement choices and technical expertise. It's not bad, it's standard practice for closed source products - do you similarly criticise TV manufacturers because they fail to release their pcb gerber files to you to critique before you buy ? No.

Everyone has the right to choose what they like - you are not a regulatory body that has the right to become nasty at them for doing so.

Don't bother responding to this - I shan't be logging into this forum again because to be honest it's supposed to be a hobby - something you enjoy not something you argue over.

Sorry but I had to say it,

Jay

----------


## huberbobas

> Your comments are unfair entirely - stating honest companies give 2 year  warranties in the EU is rubbish. The legal standard is 12 months.


Know your rights citizen:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...s/index_en.htm




> Wherever you buy goods in the EU, you have two years to request repairs or replacement  if they turn out to be faulty or not as advertised. If a product cannot  be repaired or replaced within a reasonable time or without  inconvenience, you may request a refund or price reduction.
>                      The two-year guarantee period starts as soon as  your goods are delivered, and you must inform the seller of the fault  within two months of discovering it. 
> *The seller is always liable*, and in some EU countries you also have the right to request a remedy from the producer.
> 
> *Your two-year guarantee cannot be shortened by a commercial guarantee*


Now on used goods

"In the case of second-hand goods, the buyer and seller can agree to a guarantee period of less than two years, but *no shorter than one year*. This should be made clear to you at the time of purchase."






> you are not a regulatory body that has the right to become nasty at them for doing so.


I'm not nasty, show me a single claim that can be proven otherwise. You can't? So let's recap:

My claim 1 post21, Bottom of the prints look really not the best - Fact
My claim 2 post22, 1.5microns positioning accuracy is really theoretical - Fact
My claim 3 post24, china lm8uu bearing for 8$, SKF bearing for 45$ - martin orlanowski registered not to post speck sheet but to argue about pulley accuracy? I did not even mentioned that.
My claim 4 post29, Official photos is really not that well made, no lines visible.

----------


## jayceekeys

Don't buy one ! Simple !

And regarding the website you googled it is misleading and  paraphrases the actual law. If you read the actual European Directive 1999/44/EC to which the website interprets, it would state that you do have a period of two years in which to make a claim for a defect - in fact it's actually 6 years in the UK under the Sale of Goods Act (member states can afford their own greater consumer protection), however this does not mean that you have 2 years full warranty. It means that you have 2 years in which to file a claim for a defect that was present at the time of manufacture or for a beach of initial contract. In the case of the manufacturing defect the consumer is obliged under any pursuing claim to be able to prove that the defect occurred within the first 6 months. That is EU law. In the UK as I say the time limit for a claim is 6 years whilst this would ordinarily be in respect of the goods being "fit for purpose".

Honestly I'm not here to argue but one of the things I acknowledge is that no one has the answers to all questions - as just highlighted. For this reason I think we should all exercise more constraint in our opinions and be less judgemental of others.

I really am leaving now

----------


## Dhatw

I am outa here too, I see why you were banned now huberbobas.

----------


## huberbobas

OK, fine leave if you want, If I had hurt you ego. If you want to buy hardware with markings sanded off (like any cheap Chinese stuff) it's your call.

Nice story turn you 3D printer to something useful
http://3domen.com/index.php?newsid=8473

----------


## YosemiteSam

> Know your rights citizen:
> 
> http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...s/index_en.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Now on used goods
> 
> "In the case of second-hand goods, the buyer and seller can agree to a guarantee period of less than two years, but *no shorter than one year*. This should be made clear to you at the time of purchase."
> ...


You are behaving like lawyer but you do not differentiate between warranty and guarantee.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## kyle

@ *huberbobas*  LOL... It's very easy to call something crap when you don't own it. You must understand that Zortrax has only been out for a few months. Improvements will be made. I'm pretty sure the first cell phone was not even close to what it is today. (I had one, Motorola brick, now Galaxy S4) I feel sorry for you. You want the very best out of the gate. Just doesn't happen. You must be a young pup with no life experience. Your attitude will change in time.(If it doesn't, I feel sorry for you) You don't seem to understand how technology progresses. WITH FEEDBACK FROM USERS!!!! I'm glad that Zortrax is not for you. Buy a Stratasys!!!!!! That should keep your wallet busy. I happen to like my Zortrax. Good luck in your endeavours..

----------


## atoff

> @ *huberbobas*  LOL... It's very easy to call something crap when you don't own it. You must understand that Zortrax has only been out for a few months. Improvements will be made. I'm pretty sure the first cell phone was not even close to what it is today. (I had one, Motorola brick, now Galaxy S4) I feel sorry for you. You want the very best out of the gate. Just doesn't happen. You must be a young pup with no life experience. Your attitude will change in time.(If it doesn't, I feel sorry for you) You don't seem to understand how technology progresses. WITH FEEDBACK FROM USERS!!!! I'm glad that Zortrax is not for you. Buy a Stratasys!!!!!! That should keep your wallet busy. I happen to like my Zortrax. Good luck in your endeavours..


Very nice.   :Smile: 

I'm still deciding myself... I'm leaning more heavily towards the UM2, but I'm still very unsure.

@huberbobas The Zortrax has a 1-year warranty, Makerbot offers a 6 months warranty, and Ultimaker offers a 3-month warranty.  Your argument there is invalid.  I also believe I saw your angry post on 3DERS about Zortrax raising the price of the filament for the EU customers, yet you don't even own the printer?

----------


## kyle

Thanks!! I'm very impressed with the quality of the prints for a company who has designed everything from the ground up. I must say that I like the rigid aluminum frame of Zortrax over the plastic of UM2. Never played with a UM2 though. The Zortrax is very solid. I hope you are happy in whatever direction you go.

----------


## Martin Olchanowski

> Know your rights citizen:
> 
> http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...s/index_en.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Now on used goods
> 
> "In the case of second-hand goods, the buyer and seller can agree to a guarantee period of less than two years, but *no shorter than one year*. This should be made clear to you at the time of purchase."
> ...


Seems that you have some personal business to hate Zortrax, I don't want to discuss with you as I wrote in previous post you wasted enough of internet space and whichever I wrote you turn it into next offensive posts.

I just care what Zortrax owners think and writing about it (but you are not Zortrax owner and I suggest for you to order reprap this is the best product for you, open documentation etc.), you have freedom of speech and you can walk around creating new stories, new idea for you can be that maybe Zortrax frame is toxic. 

You just walking around from website to website using different nicknames and creating rumors about Zortrax.

Regards

----------


## huberbobas

@yosemiteSam




> You are behaving like lawyer but you do not differentiate between warranty and guarantee.


Yes I know the difference, this was a quote from europa.eu not my words. It was just to show that a user can get guarantee at used items of 1 year. Is zortrax such a good printer to get a same time period as used goods? Think about it, then reply.

@kyle




> You must  understand that Zortrax has only been out for a few months. Improvements  will be made.


Zortrax has demonstrated the auto leveling raft, and better than 0.19 or 0.14 Z layer performance even during kickstarter, it was their decision to change CPU platforms and then the promises went out the window. Zortrax needs to differentiate an idea from a feature that you announce.




> I'm pretty sure the first cell phone was not even close  to what it is today. (I had one, Motorola brick, now Galaxy S4) I feel  sorry for you.


Good comparison, old cellphones batteries lasted forever, how long does your galaxy S4 battery last? And how often you pay half zortrax price for a cell phone?




> You want the very best out of the gate. Just doesn't  happen.


No, I want a company to declare true information, not marketing, like declared theoretical 1.5microns.
I want to know what i'm paying for, instead of getting sanded components. No computer, phone, IT big company does that.




> Your attitude  will change in time. (If it doesn't, I feel sorry for you)


Usually sellers do not like smarter customers than average Joe.




> You don't seem  to understand how technology progresses. WITH FEEDBACK FROM USERS!!!!


Somehow I don't have "bad attitute" problems elsewhere, maybe it's you who are so inexperienced that even facts posted above don't mean anything for you.
How can they, you bought the printer now you are defending it.




> Good luck in your  endeavours..


Thank you.

@atoff




> The Zortrax has a 1-year warranty, Makerbot offers a 6 months warranty,  and Ultimaker offers a 3-month warranty.  Your argument there is  invalid.


Last time I checked the Makerbot is not EU company, the Ultimaker like zortrax care not about laws.

You should have mentioned Apple, "http://www.techcentral.ie/eu-law-forces-apple-two-year-warranty/"
http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/




> I also believe I saw your angry post on 3DERS about Zortrax  raising the price of the filament for the EU customers, yet you don't  even own the printer?


 I never posted on that site, there are many angry kickstarter users, do you think the thread at zortrax forum was started by me?
http://zortrax.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=155

Real filament price is 12$ as was again posted on zortrax forum, if the post is not deleted yet. Since you buy from china at this low cost you pay no tax or vat.

@Martin Orlanowski




> Seems that you have some personal business to hate Zortrax, I don't want  to discuss with you as I wrote in previous post you wasted enough of  internet space and whichever I wrote you turn it into next offensive  posts.


Since when offensive post is telling facts?

----------


## YosemiteSam

> @yosemiteSam
> 
> Yes I know the difference, this was a quote from europa.eu not my words. It was just to show that a user can get guarantee at used items of 1 year. Is zortrax such a good printer to get a same time period as used goods? Think about it, then reply.


Who said that Zortrax has 1 year guarantee?

----------


## huberbobas

> Who said that Zortrax has 1 year guarantee?


perhaps you should read difference between warranty and guarantee 
yourself.

http://www.access-legal.co.uk/free-l...ranty-1314.htm

if zortrax would be only the manufacturer there would be requirements placed by, since zoltrax is also seller, then they need to respect law that specifies 2 years warranty from seller to consumer/"buyer" or "customer"

In some EU countries the consumer is specified with another word "buyer" or "customer" that means that 2 years warranty even applies to business customers in those countries. Zortrax not happy with this? they should contact EU. They bluntly shouted about filament price doubled price "We can say BIG THANKS for European government." They should apply this to themselves too.

----------


## huberbobas

Perhaps this proves to you that there is bottom print problem, if it can't be solved by this user even with 2 fans !






Video at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH0fJ...Kt3wnSYNS4ZSOQ

----------


## Martin Olchanowski

@huberbobas

Smart try but look at comment leaved by user which uploaded this video.

"This message is towards huberbobas. Two fans is just my own testing and has nothing to do with the ability to print underside off spehre. This is just the nature off FDM printing. Also no support is used."

PS. I didn't contacted with this user I see that he made reaction for your 'work' by himself.

Best Regards
Have a nice hate.

----------


## Jimmy

@huberbobas aka @hacklordsniper I don't know how many money Ultimaker team paid for this non-sense posts but this is very sad that they earn money for people like you  :Smile: 

About warranty you should go to school and learn read with understanding. May I explain you briefly differences between the manufacturers warranty and guarantee. 

Guarantee in EU is always on 2 years - for every products which you will buy. If you will buy UM, MB, Zortrax, or any RepRap printer you always have 2 years guarantee. Many companies change guarantee on their description in Manufacturers warranty. In true they not give any Manufacturers warranty, because they are obligated give 2 years guarantee. More informations about guarantee you will find on google. The sellers is not obligated include this informations on product description.

Guarantee has many limitations and you should not be interpreted so that it printer will breaks for you, and the seller is obligated to repair or replace it, this rules it has a manufacturers warranty. 


Manufacturers warranty is not mandatory, and does not have to be given to the sold product. Only the best companies give Manufacturers warranty on 1 or 2 years.

As I know:
- Ultimaker have warranty for 3 months - poor information about warranty rules, I'm really afraid about fact if this company not break rules...: https://www.ultimaker.com/spree/uplo...of-service.pdf
- Makerbot have warranty for 6 months
*- Zortrax have warranty for 12 months!* - full description about warranty: http://zortrax.com/z-care-warranty

*First you should learn more if you will want write something about law etc.*

Another issue that of me wonders where you found the unhappy backers from the Kickstarter? Most of them are on Zortrax forum, and have not found anywhere information that were unhappy  :Smile: 

*Again, you write about something of which you have no idea. Now I know why you have been banned from their forum  BECAUSE YOU ARE LIAR!*

*I hope, and I wish you that you will be banned here.*

No regards
Jimmy

----------


## YosemiteSam

> @yosemiteSam
> Yes I know the difference, this  was a quote from europa.eu not my words. It was just to show that a user  can get guarantee at used items of 1 year. Is zortrax such a good  printer to get a same time period as used goods? Think about it, then  reply.


You did not answer my question:




> Who said that Zortrax has 1 year guarantee?


Show me the text which says that Zortrax M200 has 1 year  guarantee as you said in quote.

----------


## DrLuigi

> You did not answer my question:
> 
> 
> 
> Show me the text which says that Zortrax M200 has 1 year  guarantee as you said in quote.


http://zortrax.com/z-care-warranty
http://eu.store.zortrax.com/index.ph...&product_id=50



> *Option only for companies
> For retail customers 12 month Z-Care Warranty is FREE
> *



That tells you they do have a year warranty,

I would like to get this back on topic a bit, As this is becoming more like a debate against a few users,
I bet the user that started this topic knows everything he needs to know, He can basicly make his choice already,
If he has any questions he can still ask them but the last few posts werent realy anymore about helping the topic starter anymore.

----------


## YosemiteSam

Guarantee and  Warranty are not the same thing.

----------


## atoff

Looks like Makershed (where I was planning to purchase the UM2 - if purchasing the UM2, which was the most likely plan) raised their price from about $2699 to $2999.  How very annoying...  they still don't have stock, but I believe this is in anticipation of them receiving their stock, as well as the high demand.  Makes it a little less appealing now.  I could purchase directly, but UM's lead time is still 8-10 weeks, not to mention the fact that shipping would be more expensive, as well as any international CC fees and duties.

----------


## huberbobas

Disappearing user posts from zortrax forum is really starting to look the norm for that forum, angry users are posting only in shoutbox for the same reason. Communication with zortrax is non existing, maybe it's fine if you are hobby user, but I can't imagine zortrax targeting businesses with this lack of communication, forum moderation attitude when any critics is censored.

When this forum will have a dedicated forum section for zortrax not moderated by zortrax staff you will see the real deal.

----------


## DrLuigi

> Disappearing user posts from zortrax forum is really starting to look the norm for that forum, angry users are posting only in shoutbox for the same reason. Communication with zortrax is non existing, maybe it's fine if you are hobby user, but I can't imagine zortrax targeting businesses with this lack of communication, forum moderation attitude when any critics is censored.
> 
> When this forum will have a dedicated forum section for zortrax not moderated by zortrax staff you will see the real deal.



I don't see why you couldnt place a Zotrax review or problem in the Reprap forums?

You don't need a whole new fora for a other (brand).

Personaly i think this forum already made to many forums to begin with (at the printer section).

----------


## huberbobas

creating different forums is an advantage imho, look at cnczone forum very organized, many many forum sections. The threads count clearly shows popularity of a brand in an unbiased way. There are many advantages too.

----------


## atoff

> Disappearing user posts from zortrax forum is really starting to look the norm for that forum, angry users are posting only in shoutbox for the same reason. Communication with zortrax is non existing, maybe it's fine if you are hobby user, but I can't imagine zortrax targeting businesses with this lack of communication, forum moderation attitude when any critics is censored.
> 
> When this forum will have a dedicated forum section for zortrax not moderated by zortrax staff you will see the real deal.


Huberbobas, I did a quick Google search for your username and found that you've signed up to a few forums just to post negative comments about Zortrax.  I don't see any other posts from you on any other topic besides the negative posts towards Zortrax... yet, you don't own one.  Why bother?  What's your agenda?

----------


## huberbobas

> Huberbobas, I did a quick Google search for your username and found that you've signed up to a few forums just to post negative comments about Zortrax.  I don't see any other posts from you on any other topic besides the negative posts towards Zortrax... yet, you don't own one.  Why bother?  What's your agenda?


And why should anyone keep silent, when a company tries to use unfair marketing of a product? I have not heard any arguments that would show my claims to be false.
Why do you say negative? Highlighting problem areas can be positive! the manufacturer can improve or fix it, change their attitude on forums. How many companies do you know where CEO moderates the forum?

Seems like kindergarten to me, the CEO should not show the lack of communication and diplomacy with such actions. A busy CEO needs to manage the company, not censor forum posts. And zortrax needs to get the management together to reply to emails on time etc. The release of bonds for 10M seems funny to me at the state the company is now, would you invest into company that does not reply to emails for weeks?

----------


## atoff

> And why should anyone keep silent, when a company tries to use unfair marketing of a product? I have not heard any arguments that would show my claims to be false.
> Why do you say negative? Highlighting problem areas can be positive! the manufacturer can improve or fix it, change their attitude on forums. How many companies do you know where CEO moderates the forum?
> 
> Seems like kindergarten to me, the CEO should not show the lack of communication and diplomacy with such actions. A busy CEO needs to manage the company, not censor forum posts. And zortrax needs to get the management together to reply to emails on time etc. The release of bonds for 10M seems funny to me at the state the company is now, would you invest into company that does not reply to emails for weeks?


And what stake do you have in the company?  Why's it so important to you?  I see no mention of you wanting to buy their product, nor any mention of you looking for another product.  You joined the Ultimaker forum as well, only to post about Zortrax, and how they delete forum posts.  No mention on the Ultimaker forum either of you being interested in purchasing a Zortrax nor an Ultimaker.  Then I see a post from you on a jewelry making site complaining about the quality of someone's test print.  Again, no other posts besides the one's against Zortrax, so from that it's clear you have some kind of agenda with this company... what it is, I really don't know nor care about, just that your opinion has become null for the fact.

----------


## huberbobas

> your opinion has become null for the fact.


I don't want to discuss opinions, do you have facts that my claims in  this thread are false? If you have nothing to say then please do not say anything.

The zortrax password protected software and even user manual speaks for itself. i can't remember when was the last time I so a company protect user manual with a password to be able to read it? Do you?

----------


## atoff

Ignoring the troll and getting back on topic, I've been turned off by the UM2.  It's probably a great printer, but I do feel that it's a bit expensive for what it is.  
I've been looking at two others however... one is the Airwolf3D HD http://airwolf3d.com/store/products/...model-aw3d-hd/, the other is a little more risky... the F306 from a startup Fusion3 http://www.fusion3design.com/.  It doesn't look like much, but look at that build volume! 12x12x12!  and the prints look great!   The AW3D is a little more than I want to spend, and the F306 is just unrefined, and a bit too homebrew, but both have everything going for them.  The AW3D HD has a 12x8x12" build size and is able to print at 50microns after switching to a 0.35mm nozzle (of course, this increases the price even more, as it comes standard with only the 0.50mm nozzle).

----------


## huberbobas

After zortrax just recently disabled the "orders and shipping" forum section because numerous discussions they did not like to be public some users decided to post questions elsewhere:

Before it gets deleted here is a copy:


user kazz911




> 1. We are sitting on beta software - with no updates in a long long  time - and no progress reports at all. It has been > 1 1/2 months  since last update - and we still can't auto calibrate the printer - and  need to switch it on/off after each print to keep the heated bed hot. 
> 
> 2. We have been promised ability to buy spare parts - nothing has happened.
> 3. A mock up of a "Enclosure" to keep temperature stable was promised for just after Chinese new year
> 4. Delivery of PC ABS?
> 5.  [edit] Almost forgot - 2nd extruder support - [ quote from Zortrax  december "Dual Extruder upgrade is almost finished - we have a few  cosmetic fixes. We can't promise a date but should be February or  March"]
> I'm just feeling that Zortrax does not care about us at all - or have other more "pressing issues" 
> I'm  not far from putting my M200 up for sale - only due to complete lack of  response(ability) shown from Zortrax. I only bought because they "used  to be" very responsive. 
> I don't know if you feel the same. But I'm feed up with having a 1/2 functional printer.





> Hi Julia, I, among other things, do ARM micro-controllers for a  living... 6 weeks is a LONG time when customers are already all on beta  test "firmware" (lets be true - and call it Alpha test - beta test is  reserved for "Feature complete and thought to be bug free" releases.  Alpha release are releases with known bugs that are not feature  complete. - most companies have forgotten the definitions though and  call everything beta)





> Small Issues:
> 1. Sensor connector for the heated bed - is not really  meant to be unplugged a lot. I don't have the spec sheet for that exact  connector - but I would guess it is designed for max 200-500  disconnects. I don't have any good ideas on how to solve it - but I  would stock a spare sensor cable and heated bed





> 6 weeks is a long time to fix a stupid bug like heated build plat "reset  needed" - things like that should be fixed same week it is reported.  I'm not complaining that I can't print in higher / lower resolution. But  I do want my printer to be able to run without I have to turn it on /  off all the time. I also want that auto calibration. Those two issues  are important. Next is the print quality - that should be better on the  underside of prints.  Rest - fine that they are not implemented right  now - but a bit of openness would be nice - like this is our "release  plan" - without dates on it.
> 
> Please remember - I did NOT buy as a Kickstarter. I bought after  Kickstarter printers started shipping - and this forum was band new.  Things happened quickly - lots of updates - and a reasonable amount of  openness. 
> Now it is all about "closing" everything off - download  of manual need serial number entry, no communications about what is  going on. I think Zortrax think they are Microsoft. But again - that is  just attitude. Right now Zortrax can not rely on me for recommendations -  I tell people to stay far away at least until the brochure listed  features are completed. 
> I don't know what I'll buy - but I think  I'll go back to Ultimaker. At least they fix their bugs within  reasonable short time (<2 weeks after I report a bug) - for indoor  things I have gone back to using my Ultimaker I - since the lower  surfaces look a lot nicer.  Now I only use the Zortrax for outdoor stuff  that has to be ABS.

----------


## Trhuster

> After zortrax just recently disabled the "orders and shipping" forum section because numerous discussions they did not like to be public some users decided to post questions elsewhere:


If you really want to buy a printer is it not better to ask multiple users opinion about the printer?

----------


## JohnA136

> Ignoring the troll and getting back on topic, I've been turned off by the UM2.  It's probably a great printer, but I do feel that it's a bit expensive for what it is.  
> I've been looking at two others however... one is the Airwolf3D HD http://airwolf3d.com/store/products/...model-aw3d-hd/, the other is a little more risky... the F306 from a startup Fusion3 http://www.fusion3design.com/.  It doesn't look like much, but look at that build volume! 12x12x12!  and the prints look great!   The AW3D is a little more than I want to spend, and the F306 is just unrefined, and a bit too homebrew, but both have everything going for them.  The AW3D HD has a 12x8x12" build size and is able to print at 50microns after switching to a 0.35mm nozzle (of course, this increases the price even more, as it comes standard with only the 0.50mm nozzle).


Why have you been turned off by the UM2.  We got ours a few weeks ago and it has been been printing great daily. It has proven to be a great addition to our printer farm.

----------


## atoff

> Why have you been turned off by the UM2.  We got ours a few weeks ago and it has been been printing great daily. It has proven to be a great addition to our printer farm.


No doubt it's a great machine, but for the price, I feel that there are better alternatives out there.  Going back to the AW3D HD for example, with it's 12x8x12" build volume for just about the same price and without the 8-10week lead time.  With the HD you're looking at about 3weeks, but nevermind the lead times... being that they're based in the U.S. support will be much easier to obtain, the jam-resistant hotend is highly rated, and I really like how they've set up ready-to-go profiles for different materials.  That being said, there are also smaller companies that are producing very nice machines.  Fusion3 for example (http://www.fusion3design.com/).  12x12x12" build volume, well built, all high quality parts, and the prints look fantastic.  It too is the same price as the UM2... and after all of my research, it would probably be my first choice, if it weren't for the shipping cost.  He ships LTL only, and to me it would be $330.  While I think the machine is top notch, I can't justify the cost to have it delivered.    That's not to say it isn't worth it, I'm just personally unwilling to part with that much just for delivery.  

I've also been looking at Delta bots.  Namely the Rostock Max V2 from SeeMeCNC.  $1K for the kit... yes, it's a kit, but still worth a look.  Though, the square build area would be pretty small, it would still be larger than the UM2's build area.  

So, while I think the UM2 is a really nice machine, I think I can get more for my money elsewhere.

----------


## RepRappa

> Well since I read about the Zortrax I have done masses of reading up about it and I have to say, I am likely not going to order a 5th Gen from MBI. 
> 
> I contacted them on their forum and uploaded a few STLs of items that I was having problems printing with my RepRapPro Mendel, asking whether the Zortrax would likely be able to print them reliably.
> 
> What happened next is what is impressing me the most - one of the Zortrax employees posted that they had taken my files and were going to print them all (one is really big too), so that I could see photos of how they turn out, so I could see what difference their machine would make to my printing. I am waiting for the demo pics, but have to say I am MEGA impressed as it will really give me an idea of what the machine is like with MY prints. 
> 
> That really shows incredible customer service - something it seems that some people have doubted previously. I'm sure others may have their own opinions, but for me they have been spot on.
> 
> At the moment the M200 only does ABS, but the availability of other material profiles is imminent. Plus, it not like that's a handicap - even the MB 5th Gen can only do one material type on launch and but there is no plan whatsoever of them changing this in the future. ABS is probably more useful anyway to me.
> ...


Still happy with their "incredible customer service" - I watched there site after you said how good they were. Sorry mate but I been laughing my feckin a$$ off after you spent all your time defending them and they just wwent ahead and walked all over you. I hope you have learned ! I sorry that you had to suffer and dont mean any bad feeling but they have royaly screwed you over and you are looking like a dum a$$ now aint you?

And they have played right into hands of huberbobas - they deleted there forum because they didnt want people to see there customers were pi$$ed off - he said they deleted stiff didn't he? You didn't listen did you?

They don't talk to there customers he warned you - you didnt listen did you?

They advertise that there printer beats everyone else, but its all theory and they actually cant do half the stuff they said can they? Levelling, Only 140 and 190 microns layer thickness - not the fine resolution 25, 50 or even 90 microns they have in ads . ABS that sticks (oh no it curls according to Simon there own staff).

If you aint already done it ditch them off as you aint getting anywhere with there incredible customer service now are you?

And you might want change the link you gave to your first thread showing how good they were -- they deleted it guy! 

Mica

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## huberbobas

Here some more prints from zortrax users mirrored for obvious reasons:

zortrax curving and warping.jpgzortrax curving and warping2.jpgzortrax curving and warping3.jpgzortrax curving and warping4.jpg

And official reponse from Szymon (zortrax staff)




> Please note that Z-ABS is not designed for printing elements as  large as that. All of the described issues came from warping and  cooling. You can follow the advices noticed by @dhatw and @julia (expect  third-party filament - you do it for your own risk!), the best way for  large prints is to use less-warping material (that will be available  soon) or printing in pieces.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Szymon

----------


## DrLuigi

Well its kinda normal with ABS, every printer will have these problems,

I know they have Z ABS wich would be better as warping goes, But there are alot of other filaments wich seem to be as strong as ABS and do not have the Warping issues,

Like ColorFabs filament should be decent, from what i've heard.

Thats not realy a flaw of the machine, Just something that happens with every printer.

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## jimc

X2. thats completley normal for abs. we all deal with that. 





> Well its kinda normal with ABS, every printer will have these problems,
> 
> I know they have Z ABS wich would be better as warping goes, But there are alot of other filaments wich seem to be as strong as ABS and do not have the Warping issues,
> 
> Like ColorFabs filament should be decent, from what i've heard.
> 
> Thats not realy a flaw of the machine, Just something that happens with every printer.

----------


## Trhuster

Mabey this Ultimaker clone can be good? Seems like a sturdy and good constructed bot imo.

http://www.mankati.com/fullscale-xt1....CtpjcoOw.dpbs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsusR8CAG9U

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## atoff

> Mabey this Ultimaker clone can be good? Seems like a sturdy and good constructed bot imo.
> 
> http://www.mankati.com/fullscale-xt1....CtpjcoOw.dpbs
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsusR8CAG9U


I was looking at that earlier today.  Looks interesting.  It's about $1500, so, not a bad price, as long as it uses high quality parts... perhaps the hotend could be swapped for something more reputable otherwise (E3D, Budaschnozzle?).

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## jayceekeys

Sam..... Check your PMs!!

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## kaz911

> After zortrax just recently disabled the "orders and shipping" forum section because numerous discussions they did not like to be public some users decided to post questions elsewhere:
> 
> Before it gets deleted here is a copy:
> 
> 
> user kazz911


Let me first say that I'm not to happy about my quotes being used on other sites - as I am the one who wrote the above. 

But let me make it clear - I stand by my criticism  - but the biggest issue with Zortrax is the big heads on the management. They should learn to listen to their customers. They have had since the kick-starter beginning to create the firmware and correct the bugs. 

But the printer is built like a rock - it is very solid - and very quiet - and I'm not afraid to leave it while it prints. But the things mentioned in my quote are correct. Zortrax went from being very informative to no information at all. Went from software release every couple of weeks - to now none in 7 weeks despite some "idiotic" coding errors that could be fixed in a very short time. 

But as I wrote on the Zortrax forum - I can not recommend the Zortax as it is now. To buggy and NOT feature complete. I do also find it cowardly that Zortax requires Serial Numbers to download software AND manuals - even the QUICKSTART requires a S/N to download. That would have made me NOT buy the printer in the first place.

And for me to recommend Zortrax again - the management would have to come "down" from their high horses to the level of their customers - and not display their petty fear by moving, deleting, limiting access and otherwise spoil what could have been a great Company AND Printer and User forum.

----------


## Iona

At the time of writing the Zortrax forum has been  'down for maintenance' for the past 3 days. Strange - as posts were starting to appear from customers questioning their delivery schedule. I was originally interested in purchasing their printer, but over the past month or so the companies attitude to customers has started to change for the worse, going by Zortrax's staffs forum posts (or lack of).

----------


## huberbobas

Before Zortrax placed their forum on maintenance mode (probably because they offering bonds and do not want investors to read their forum else their will not get their quick money) some users reported that they have received a printer with Z axis being simple trapezoidal screw, as you know a ball screw is used in zortrax.
No forum announcement was made regarding ball screw change etc. Do you want to buy from company that changes major components when they want? And you discover this when you receive the printer?

First they removed the no maintenance IGUS bearings, now the ball screw. This machine is not worth the money.

Zortrax forum member Tivoli posted: "My new Zortrax came with trapezoidal screw. What is the reason you resigned to use the ball screw for z axis?"

This has been confirmed by few forum posts by Zortrax CEO Rafal, stating that:

"@Tivol, it's many reasons why we change it:
1. Long delivery time, production has moved to 3-4 weeks.
2. Difficult assembly and maintenace.
3. We noticed several cases of damage Z coupler.
4. A large number of poorly made screws that had to be returned to the manufacturer.
5. In addition to the visual appearance there is no difference in print quality. The tests lasted almost half a year.

Best Regards,
Rafal

"

I would like to note that zortrax print platform is removable and held by magnets, you can conveniently remove the platform and then remove your print. This avoids any debrief getting anywhere.

User smile noted that: "Repetitive movements that are reproducible call for a ball screw,  everybody know this. Lead screws are for cheap equipment like hobby CNC  made in china etc. Can I get a printer with ball screw? At least there should be an option to choose."

However this user was banned afterwards.

This is all facts that has happened, this not gossip.

----------


## atoff

Well, just want to give an update as to which printer I've chosen, and why.  

I have been seconds from purchasing the F306.  I was given a discount and had an invoice set up, however, at the last minute, I was advised over and over again that the price was too high for what it was.  Really, I think the price is decent, but I do think it's a very simplistic and economical design that should lend to a much lower price.  In any case, considering I'm not a fantastic modeler, I've decided that spending $2800 is perhaps not the best idea for a beginner.  I've decided to go with the Rostock Max V2.  This printer has received great reviews from all those I've asked.  In fact, even the creator of the F306 had said that SeeMeCNC (Rostock) is a good choice to go with if choosing a Delta style printer.  At $999 + Shipping, it makes much more sense for someone to learn to model and print with.  It is a kit, but I'm actually looking forward to that.  I think it'll be a fun puzzle to play with.  As for the printer itself.  It has an 11" diameter x ~14" H build area.  Not too bad, not great for square parts, but all the same.  It comes with a Rambo board, which is nice, and perhaps I will be able to swap out the hotend for a E3D hotend, and perhaps even go dual extruder down the road.  

You guys mention the attitudes of the Zortrax staff... this was one of the primary reasons I chose to stay away from this printer.  The specs were so very very optimistic, however, at this stage it is still unable to print a higher resolution that 140microns, and PLA is a last priority for the Zortrax team.  Their attitudes are a bit high and mighty I admit.  They seem not very accommodating, or willing to listen to their customers.

Makerbot seems like they want to be the Apple of the industry.  They're putting all of their efforts into the design, and not really the functionality.

Ultimaker 2... this one's tricky.  Their machine's really nice.  I have no issue with the quality of the machine, however, the price is just far too high for what you're getting.  At nearly $3K shipped, it's just not worth it.  I do see the clones popping up, and these look appealing, but, if I had to choose between a clone and the Rostock, it's not too tough a decision, as I'll have much more people to troubleshoot with owning a Rostock. 

The Airwolf3D HD was another I was so very close to pulling the trigger on.  I love that they have configurations already in place for the various types of filaments.  They have a great all metal hotend based on the Budaschnozzle I believe.  The issue that was pointed out to me about the HD was that the bed wouldn't be stiff enough for a build volume of its size, so that there would be a degradation in quality.  Considering the tech behind the AW3D, I can pass for it being a $3K machine... and again, probably best not to spend that kind of money with my modeling experience, I've started to realize.

There were many many others in consideration, but price to performance, they just didn't have it.  So, in the end, I think the SeeMeCNC machine win it.  Would love to hear opinions on this though, if anyone has any.

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## huberbobas

There is also very nice printer called Mingda_3D_printer

http://esdmd.en.alibaba.com/product/...r_machine.html

Yes it's made in china, but print quality is very nice, then there is spiderbot.eu with their delta printer with chamber heater feature making big parts from abs no problem.

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## hacklordsniper

> There is also very nice printer called Mingda_3D_printer
> 
> http://esdmd.en.alibaba.com/product/...r_machine.html
> 
> Yes it's made in china, but print quality is very nice, then there is spiderbot.eu with their delta printer with chamber heater feature making big parts from abs no problem.


I ordered a Ultimaker 2 and canceled my order as soon i seen that. I got that printer and its great, built like a tank. The only details that i did not like is that they mounted x-y motors on standoffs so i machined them from alluminium (i have my machine shop so i did not have to buy them, but you can for 20 $ on ebay if needed). It prints perfect, the construction is strong, stable and rigid. All parts are of high quality and im perfectly happy. Compared to Ultimaker 2, UM2 looks like a dollar store toy. I have seen Ultimaker 2 in person and was surprised how cheaply it is built, clearly a product designed to fill someones pockets with alot of money, totally not worth what it costs. And check howmany people have problems with it (especially that cheap feeder) I have seen dollar store toys built more stable and rigid. On my printer feeder is made from aluminium, geared stepper and hardened steel feeding gear. It is enough strong to pull a stell cable if needed. 

 Zortrax is on the other hand lead by people that don't work honest, i would avoid that one even more. Their forum is heavily moderated, they gave up on that project but still "milking the cow" as long as they can. Most of users unfortunately ended with not working (bad working) printers and still hold back because they keep promising new firmware that will turn their printers to "gold". In latest time a lot of problems appeared with printers not delivered, and ones that were delivered with changed key components (cheaper ones) and accidentally their forum disappeared. 

Im open for any questions  :Smile:

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## RepRappa

I see in the comments above that Zortrax silence their own users even talking to each now? This is really bad. Even if there were people who had caused problems - why did they ban everyone talking. This is just another example of a Sh * t companys who do not know how to run a business. I think that this is quite common for companies starting at Kickstarter . They may have a great idea, but they do not understand  about any of the other things they need to do for a buyer.

I  know that I picked out technical deficiencies in their product before ,  and I would not buy one for me, but if someone at Zortrax reads this  - begin to respect the customers you have because they will surely leave. If you turn off the site, they will simply start their own and walk away from you. Then you have no control at all and may not even write your response.

For them customer, please start behaving Zortrax

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## hacklordsniper

> I see in the comments above that Zortrax silence their own users even talking to each now? This is really bad. Even if there were people who had caused problems - why did they ban everyone talking. This is just another example of a Sh * t companys who do not know how to run a business. I think that this is quite common for companies starting at Kickstarter . They may have a great idea, but they do not understand  about any of the other things they need to do for a buyer.
> 
> I  know that I picked out technical deficiencies in their product before ,  and I would not buy one for me, but if someone at Zortrax reads this  - begin to respect the customers you have because they will surely leave. If you turn off the site, they will simply start their own and walk away from you. Then you have no control at all and may not even write your response.
> 
> For them customer, please start behaving Zortrax


Hello!

I agree with your opinion, i was lookin to buy Zortrax myself some time ago. I asked questions, did not get answer. I posted on forum and got banned, and that told me enough. I have also noticed later that the staff was very rude to customers on forums many times and even insulting them, banning them and what not. 

I would not agree its common for Kickstarter companies.

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## csshih

Thank you for the thread..
I was trying to decide between a Zortrax or UM2, but now I'm even more confused!  :Smile:

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## atoff

> Thank you for the thread..
> I was trying to decide between a Zortrax or UM2, but now I'm even more confused!


Took me over a month to decide.  As someone coming into 3D printing for the very first time, it's easy to let the marketing hype make your decision for you, but best thing to do is visit the manufacturer forums, or forums like this and just read about the experiences from the users.  Read the troubleshooting sections to see what problems people are having, read the "what are you making" type threads, to see the quality of prints coming out of the machine.  My budget was $3K when I went into this mindset of purchasing a printer, but after having learned so much I decided to go with the SeeMeCNC Rostock Max V2 kit, and build it myself.  I finished my build a couple of days ago... it took me much longer than it typically would as I have severe back pain, and there was a lot of waiting on parts for upgrades that I wanted to add initially.  I spent $995 on the kit, and additionally about $300 on tools and parts for upgrades.  I'm pretty happy with my decisions.  My very first print looked great for the most part, and now I have a much better understanding of the mechanics of the machine.  I'm not afraid to take apart the hotend and such.  

You have a lot of options other than those two choices right now.  Almost too many options.  You may want to take a look at the Wanhao 4X, looks pretty good with dual extruders.  Cheap too, at about $1100.  Just don't feel that you need to spend the kind of money UM2 is asking for their machine to get quality prints.

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## csshih

That's what's killing me! I have an Up Plus 2 - and I'm reasonably happy with the print quality, but the print volume of that machine isn't enough for me anymore. 

I actually do like their software and raft system- peeling the raft off does make for a very clean bottom without any post-processing.. there are very few reviews talking about how the bottom of the prints look.
Unfortunately I don't have too much time to DIY, but that rostock does look very cool. I just wish there were a printer with all the upgraded parts, -everything- you could want in a single kit. Fiddling with settings is my nightmare.

My ideal 3D printer is one that works right out of the box(hah- even the up plus needed fiddling in the form of replacing the build platform with a glass one and doing manual levelings etc..), can do ABS and PLA, has around 8"^3 (the bigger the better) build volume, is accurate, ideally is quiet but that's not a must, and fast. Of course, good software is a plus too. I'm sure everyone is looking for something like that, though  :Smile:

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## atoff

Yeah, I hear you, I wanted to upgrade everything on this thing before I even had a chance to see how it runs stock.  I ended up just going with a few upgrades:  24V 31A power supply, dampers on the motors, which makes it much more quiet, and a screw-in thermistor, for which I had to drill and tap a hole for in the hotend (which made me nervous).  I really want to go dual extruder and I'm looking into whether or not an all metal hotend would be a good idea (E3D for example).  

What you're looking for is definitely what I was looking for.  Except once I started looking at 8"^3 build volumes, I wanted even more!!  :Wink:   Have you looked into Airwolf printers?  They look really good too, albeit a little pricey.  They have a really nice looking hotend, so no need to upgrade that part.

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## csshih

> Yeah, I hear you, I wanted to upgrade everything on this thing before I even had a chance to see how it runs stock.  I ended up just going with a few upgrades:  24V 31A power supply, dampers on the motors, which makes it much more quiet, and a screw-in thermistor, for which I had to drill and tap a hole for in the hotend (which made me nervous).  I really want to go dual extruder and I'm looking into whether or not an all metal hotend would be a good idea (E3D for example).  
> 
> What you're looking for is definitely what I was looking for.  Except once I started looking at 8"^3 build volumes, I wanted even more!!   Have you looked into Airwolf printers?  They look really good too, albeit a little pricey.  They have a really nice looking hotend, so no need to upgrade that part.


That airwolf does look interesting, but I'm not sure there's much of a community around it yet. We'll see! so many new manufacturers have been popping up, it's crazy.

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## jimc

have any of you guys looked at the makergear m2. one of the best printers goin, fantastic support and company to deal with. you wont find a better more helpful community.

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## atoff

> have any of you guys looked at the makergear m2. one of the best printers goin, fantastic support and company to deal with. you wont find a better more helpful community.


The M2 was one I was checking out during my research.  It has some really great reviews, but ultimately, I passed on it.  It has a direct drive extruder, whereas I was looking for a bowden setup, but it is a really nice looking machine, and a good choice I'm sure.  

Btw, I received some sample prints from Zortrax a few days ago, a keychain, and spiral box with lid.   I had requested samples a couple of months ago when I just started shopping for a printer.  They look and feel really good.  I'll perhaps print the same items with my Rostock and compare.  I've been getting some really nice prints from the Rostock, I'll have to post up a review with some pics.

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## jimc

huh, may i ask why you are looking for a bowden setup?

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## atoff

I'm no longer looking, I already have my printer up and running, but when I was looking, it was for the sake of increasing speed / reducing weight.  I suppose it also reduces the amount of vibration by not having the motor mounted to the hot end assembly.  Seems to be working really nicely on the Rostock.  My next step is to go dual extruders.  I'm waiting on E3D to release their V6, or waiting for something better.  An all metal hot-end that performs just as well with PLA.

----------


## RAMTechRob

I'm done looking as well.  I passed on the MakerBot 5th Gen, and went with the Orion Delta.

----------


## ravnistic

New User here, I've been reading through the thread. We just took delivery of our Fusion3 3d Printer, and after having looked at so many others I am very pleased with the purchase. Perhaps it does look homebrew, but the design is solid and extremely stable. We've been printing almost non stop since we got it, and have not found a single thing (yet) it can't handle. If you are still in the market, take another look at it.

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## jimc

yes that is chris's printer. i have been keeping an eye on that printer for awhile. fantastic design. if i was going to break down and buy a printer today i would probably be purchasing his printer. i do wish it was an enclosed design though but with it being a core xy and the steppers outside the frame i think it would be a little hard. once you get a little more time with it please do a review and give us some pictures. there is very little on the net about this printer or chris's company.

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## atoff

No doubt it's a great printer.  I had done so much research and weighing of pros and cons to come to a conclusion as to which printer to buy.  I ultimately decided not to go with the F306, but it had nothing to do with the quality of the machine.  First of all, the price is considerably high for what it is.  The design is great, but it can be built for under a grand without significant shopping around for parts, though I do realize you're paying for a pre-built / pre-calibrated machine, and they do need to make a profit.  I also felt that it would be smarter for me to learn the ins and outs of 3D printing by going with something significantly cheaper, and by building it myself, which is why I went with a Rostock kit.   There's also the resale value...  I upgrade often.  I upgrade my PC's, I upgrade my phones, I upgrade my ebook readers... I like staying on top of technology.  While I know it's a great machine, its resale value is very low, because though I may be willing to spend $3k for it, not many others are.  It's not a known name.  I wouldn't have a difficult time selling a Makerbot or Ultimaker for example.  Several other reasons I decided not to go with it, but that's the gist.

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## csshih

we're on the verge of purchasing an ultimaker 2, just wish there were spare parts more readily available (print bed et all)

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## dm7864

Airwolf 3D HD2x is dual head and 12 x 8 x 11 with .06 mm layer height. So far they have answered all my questions and have printed in ABS,PLA and now nylon with no problems

----------


## csshih

> Airwolf 3D HD2x is dual head and 12 x 8 x 11 with .06 mm layer height. So far they have answered all my questions and have printed in ABS,PLA and now nylon with no problems


tempting, but I don't know how I feel about the acrylic? case. and it being $1000 more. Not sure I'd want to wait 3-4 weeks either! Waiting on reviews!

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## tony030512

> tempting, but I don't know how I feel about the acrylic? case. and it being $1000 more. Not sure I'd want to wait 3-4 weeks either! Waiting on reviews!


Also waiting on more info I want the AW3d hf2x

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## jimc

Yeah printers with acrylic frames always look real appealing but its brittle, cracks easily and the high thermal expansion is trouble for a 3d printer. Its really not the best. Great for marketing though since its pretty and has alot of flash. People eat it up. The airwolf has just a ton of printed components as well. Basically everything on it is printed. Not saying its a bad printer but those are some things i notice that just arent the best choice.

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## tony030512

> tempting, but I don't know how I feel about the acrylic? case. and it being $1000 more. Not sure I'd want to wait 3-4 weeks either! Waiting on reviews!





> Yeah printers with acrylic frames always look real appealing but its brittle, cracks easily and the high thermal expansion is trouble for a 3d printer. Its really not the best. Great for marketing though since its pretty and has alot of flash. People eat it up. The airwolf has just a ton of printed components as well. Basically everything on it is printed. Not saying its a bad printer but those are some things i notice that just arent the best choice.


What would you recommend?? I want a printer with dual extruder...and can print multiple materials price range is approx 3k

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## redhatmatt

Ok, I stumbled onto this thread and read the whole thing. Wow... 

I've owned an Ultimaker original for two years, I added a heated bed and a dual extruder long ago. Now they are selling the heated bed on a new Ultimaker Original +. The shipping date is long but that will shorten. They are also starting to start operations in the states out of Tennessee by a long time community member. I love love love my Ultimaker. You can't go wrong with a printer that is so open source and meticulously supported (even if they went out of business you are fine for like forever you can source the parts), has such an active community (so many modifications already available to trick it out, so much advice, so much support), provides such high quality prints at such high speeds.... The Ultimaker 2 is great too if you can afford it - I have many friends with them and am a member of a few labs with them... they are a little slicker but if you don't have that kind of coin and want a seriously capable, future DIY printer go with the UM1.

I also have had (for a little over six months) a Airwolf 3DHD including the .35 nozzle for an extra 35.00 (oh my  :Wink:  ), which then I upgraded to the 3DHDx (Polycarb single head) and finally to  the 3DHD2x all on the same original 3DHD. Now I have two extra heads. Yeah they aren't 100% open source but I researched it enough to see that if they ever (hope not they are nice people) went out of business (that seems HIGHLY unlikely) I could source this one as well as far as getting parts. The acrylic is thick! -- and great, I've made similar acrylic cutouts to do mods at my local maker facility. The airwolf uses a RAMBO board (which also just uses Marlin and Arduino) and it's basically a Bowden design. The Viki controller is made by someone else in Irvine - Pancautt Designs - but you could use an Ulticontroller.

The argument I read on fear of 3mm filament is kind of silly. I actually think for these types of setups it's superior to 1.75mm and it's easy to get everywhere. Not being available in the US??? Wha??? The highest quality great stuff in the US: matterhackers & ultimachine.

To Tony above, for 3K --- for a dual extruder with a heated bed... seriously consider the Ultimaker Original and upgrade the head to a dual with the kit, you are looking at around 1500-1700 and you can spend the rest on filament.

PS. I would not go with a Makerbot considering everything out there... I should say the Replicator 2x. I've had a ton of experience with them... bad support, tendency to break and then exacerbate that with again... bad support... and their tendency towards proprietary everything means == less community sharing - and or the capability to do so... plus the way they've been grabbing ideas and patenting them off of thingiverse... the list goes on... --however if all you want to do is do PLA then the new ones do look like could be hassle free - but that isn't what most of you are after. The zortrax???? yeah that's like a super bad version of what makerbot is doing these days (as far as their proprietary, unproven, questionable ethical "inventions") but with no real community and barely alive for very long.... the fact that Dell bought 500 of them makes me stay away further, since when did corporations get smart on buying things (not much from what I've seen and I've worked for a good chunk of the fortune 500) -- they are the same "groups" buying Makerbot Replicator 2x's by the bundle so they can sit and be broken... I'm sure Dell did so before moving on to the newest line of the same thing but worst with the Zortrax line!

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## Trhuster

> The zortrax???? yeah that's like a super bad version of what makerbot is doing these days but with no community and barely alive.... the fact that Dell bought 500 of them makes me stay away further, since when did corporations get smart on buying things (not much from what I've seen and I've worked for a good chunk of the fortune 500) -- they are the same "groups" buying Makerbot Replicator 2x's by the bundle so they can sit and be broken... I'm sure Dell did so before moving on to the newest line of the same thing but worst with the Zortrax line!


You making conclusions that not make sense. If you want a ABS printer today Zortrax is one off the best in this pricerange. Regarding community, it is there but printer for the most parts works without any big problems so not always so much to write about. But if you ask something you will always get an answer from some user in Zortrax forum.

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## redhatmatt

> You making conclusions that not make sense. If you want a ABS printer today Zortrax is one off the best in this pricerange. Regarding community, it is there but printer for the most parts works without any big problems so not always so much to write about. But if you ask something you will always get an answer from some user in Zortrax forum.


 :Mad: 
I don't think they make sense to you as english is clearly not your first language. If you read the rest of this thread you'd read what I read and see that they aren't real popular with this thread. You are right in one area, I am basing my conclusions on what I have read and I do not own one... nor do I plan on owning one but as I said I read the whole thread and the feedback isn't good on that company.

First of all the person I was replying to asked about getting a dual extruder. As far as I can tell they have no dual extruder and from what I have read they are being asked to fix other core things promised to their users first before even moving on to that feature.

"But if you ask something you will always get an answer from some user in Zortrax forum." -- did you read anything anyone wrote in the last 75% of this thread??? Like the owners and managements are control freaks who delete, lock and erase parts of threads? Maybe they are all lying but I seriously doubt it. Maybe you mean some user based forum no one wrote about vs. the Zortrax company forum others did write about, eventually negatively.

If I don't make sense to YOU... then ask me a question to clarify what is confusing you, I'll try and help clarify my conclusions to you.

In this case many people wrote many negative things about the Zortrax printers including bad things on their support, their forum and made fun of their claims as far as how detailed it can print as far as being on an XY axis, also they are very very proprietary on their software and such as written by others... THEREFORE: I WOULDN'T RECOMMEND THIS P-R-I-N-T-E-R company to do business with. I really hope this is clear and makes at least a tiny amount of sense in how I drew my conclusion.

--I edited this part after I thought about other possible angles Trhuster maybe coming from... if you have lots of money and don't care about having to replace them on your own dime then this could be a good fit. If you live in Poland this might be a great fit. If you work at Dell and they'll buy more replacements for you without waiting. There's probably a lot of other Niche use cases I haven't thought of, but I hope I've written clearly how I got to my own conclusion about considering that printer in my personal recommendations list. -- 

Trhuster -- if you like it and your happy with it then great, I just think down the road you are going to have a lot more problems with it than I am with mine. My point was in how well run open source helps end consumers with maintaining their own products and helps with growth. It has downsides but overall it's an awesome system to be a part of... the closer a company is with sharing plans and using standards based open hardware the more we as consumers are not worried about fixing or truly "owning" our machines.

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## Trhuster

> I don't think they make sense to you as english is clearly not your first language. If you read the rest of this thread you'd read what I read and see that they aren't real popular with this thread. You are right in one area, I am basing my conclusions on what I have read and I do not own one... nor do I plan on owning one but as I said I read the whole thread and the feedback isn't good on that company.
> 
> First of all the person I was replying to asked about getting a dual extruder. As far as I can tell they have no dual extruder and from what I have read they are being asked to fix other core things promised to their users first before even moving on to that feature.
> 
> "But if you ask something you will always get an answer from some user in Zortrax forum." -- did you read anything anyone wrote in the last 75% of this thread??? Like the owners and managements are control freaks who delete, lock and erase parts of threads? Maybe they are all lying but I seriously doubt it. Maybe you mean some user based forum no one wrote about vs. the Zortrax company forum others did write about, eventually negatively.
> 
> If I don't make sense to YOU... then ask me a question to clarify what is confusing you, I'll try and help clarify my conclusions to you.
> 
> In this case many people wrote many negative things about the Zortrax printers including bad things on their support, their forum and made fun of their claims as far as how detailed it can print as far as being on an XY axis, also they are very very proprietary on their software and such as written by others... THEREFORE: I WOULDN'T RECOMMEND THIS P-R-I-N-T-E-R company to do business with. I really hope this is clear and makes at least a tiny amount of sense in how I drew my conclusion.
> ...


 No my first language is not English, it is Swedish. I had my Zortrax for 8 months now and i know all the storys about them, good and bad. Is they the perfect company with the perfect printer? No, ofcourse they are not. Does i always agre with them? No i don't. Is zortrax M200 a good printer? Yes it is, and i would buy it again today without hesitation.

I know only one printer that i think can be better and that is Clone R1 made by Carl Raffle that i have preorded. Check it out if you are searching for a open source printer.  http://shop.raffle.ch/shop/clone-r1-...91bb-189348425

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## curious aardvark

on an alternative note, for $3000 you could buy FOUR flashforge creators. Dual heads, heated bed, will print with just about anything. 
You really don't get that much more for your money with the more expensive machines. 

If I was going to buy a bowden setup printer I'd probably go with 3mm filament. Just gives more push and pull for retraction so you should get less stringing and faster porinting than with the 1.75 mm bowden setup. 
And I suspect 3mm printers have less hassle with the flexible filaments as well.

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## kathmorgan12

Well since I read about the Zortrax I have done masses of reading up about it and I have to say, I am likely not going to order a 5th Gen from MBI.

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## JohnA136

Wow, way to revive a 15 month old thread?  I still love our Ultimaker 2.  Best out of our 11 printers.

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