# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > FlashForge Forum >  Issue with ABS and Micro-Swiss All Metal Hot Ends.

## wirlybird

Below (the red part) is printed in ABS on the FlashForge Creator Pro.  You can see the issues with the edges of the gears.  The pink part is done in PLA and is far better.
Print at 230 speed 3000mm/min  .2 layer.  Using S3D.
The other thing I noticed during the print is that at the ends of the teeth, the points,  were curling up during printing.

I am running a test print on another printer with stock setup to see how it does.

Is this just adjustments needed to the setup for the Micro-Swiss ends?


[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

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## Todd-67

I have read that the all metal hot ends require different settings than the PTFE setup. Hit up jkansas on this one here. I know a lot of people are running them on the other groups i am a member of. If i get time later today i will poke around there.

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## wirlybird

Yea, I was hoping he will chime in.  They are running in his cooling block and heat-sink setup.

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## jfkansas

Hmm, interesting. It looks like cooling issues to me. The PLA was ran at a significantly lower temp I assume and probably with forced cooling? 

I'd say the ABS needs more time between layers to cool. It is a different plastic all together so it is hard to compare. Usually when something like that happens try printing 2 pieces at once on opposite sides of the build plate. Possibly need to drop the temp of the ABS to 220 or so. Keep build plate at 90c.

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## wirlybird

There are actually 8 gears printing and a block and 8 pins that fill the entire bed so there is quite a bit of time between layers!
I tried a run on the QIDI with the standard extruder setup and it was better but the edges of the gear teeth still look "chewed" on!  I was getting curling at the points of the gear teeth so I turned on the fan.  I think that slowed the curling some.

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## jfkansas

Some cooling can help ABS, just not so forced and direct as PLA. ABS holds heat from the build plate too, and PLA you shouldn't have a very hot plate at all. Since it is a different machine do you have any different acceleration settings between the 2 printers?

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## jfkansas

There are so many variables involved here, different printer, filament, hot end, temps, cooling, it is hard to pinpoint exactly what is happening. Probably a combination of things mostly heat and extrusion volume related.

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## wirlybird

The red ABS and pink PLA were the same printer.  I tried another ABS with a new roll on the other printer but got a similar but not so bad "chewed" look on the edges.  I did use the right hand side with the fan going so it was less direct cooling.

My recent ABS prints are acting like they are over extruding except my settings are still about what I have used in the past.  I need to test more.

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## jfkansas

Ya an all metal setup can flow more plastic, bigger/longer melt zone. More direct heat to the nozzle since no PTFE to insulate. I run my multiplier at about .86.

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## wirlybird

What do you use for retraction distance and speed?  I think I am getting the distance pretty good but not so sure on speed.

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## jfkansas

Usually about 1.4mm and 50mm/s

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## jfkansas

Thing is you shouldn't be retracting there anyway.

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## wirlybird

I was more wondering about in general for ABS.

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## Todd-67

What i am wondering about is looking at the top layer on that abs part. Not so much the gear teeth as those are weird to fill depending on thier size but the flat section looks under extruded.

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## wirlybird

The flat part is actually the bottom.  I think this thing was over extruding a lot.  I have reduced from 1 to .9 and I think I am making progress.  I think the edges area combination of over extrusion and curling.  So adding the fan to cool a bit.  Using the right extruder the fan is less direct.

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## Todd-67

Ah that explains it a little. If it's over extruding back off the multiplier. I am with JK on the retraction shouldn't come into play here but that is a well known issue around dialing in the all metal hotend from what I was able to gather from the other forums. The cooling issue I learned a while back with ABS. some parts with small features like that like about 60% fan on them. Because you are enclosed you can get away with more fan than those with a large makeshift or no enclosure.

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## wirlybird

Here is an update on this issue.

In the attached pic you can see the curling at the ends of the gear teeth.  This is causing the issue I am having.

How can I solve this?
Again, it is ABS and Micro-Swiss all metal hot ends.

[IMG][/IMG]

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## jfkansas

What I find interesting is the model on the right side isn't doing that. Or is it doing it also but that side is cropped off?

My thoughts are still cooling and overhangs. It looks better than what you were getting before doesn't it? Lower layer heights help cooling, thinner layers cool faster, and they also help overhangs by having lest step from the previous layer.

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## wirlybird

It is definitely an improvement.  Your suggestions along with some input from Micro-Swiss has helped.
I agree on heat.  I am now running the bed at 90 to start and dropping to 80 on this run to see how it goes.  Also running the fan  after a few layers.
Running at 2000mm/min.  I think too slow on print speed on the layer and the nozzle has to much time at any one spot.

I haven't tried a thinner layer yet.  I am thinking to remove the top to let some heat out.  Overall warping is not really an issue not is adhesion.

Thanks for the suggestions.

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## jfkansas

Ya you shouldn't have issues with warping on small parts like that. Heat dwell "might" be an issue but additional cooling should help that. It's all about getting that previous layer solid before the next layer hits it. I print all my small parts pretty slow because even if you set the speed to 100mm/s there isn't enough travel distance to get above say 10-20mm/s. So knowing that you might as well just print at 20mm/s, but travel speed can be higher.

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## wirlybird

Ok, I'll try slowing more on the next run and see.  The current run is looking better.  Problem with slowing so much is that these take forever to print as is!!  I know, 4 hours for a bad part is worse than 6 for a good part!!

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## jfkansas

Ya but like I said, there isn't a lot of difference between 60mm/s and 20mm/s when acceleration is factored in. S3d time estimate will show less time for 60mm/s but actual time will be more like 20mm/s..  It is all relative to part size.You could set your default speed to 80mm/s and then set your outlines to like 20% of that speed. That way infill is done fast but outlines are done very slow, and that is where your detail is wanted.

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## wirlybird

For sure!  I did slow the outlines a bit for this go at it.

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## wirlybird

Micro-Swiss says to run 10-15 hotter on PLA what have you found with ABS?  Run hotter or cooler than stock?

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## jfkansas

I rarely if ever use PLA. I don't think it is good to make a blanket statement like that about any type of filament.

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## wirlybird

My question was about ABS and what temps you found compared to a stock set up.  I was simply referencing that MS said you may need to increase for PLA but gave no guidelines for ABS.

I was just wondering what you found on temps with the all metal vs. standard PTFE set up.

I am trying a run without the top on the printer to see how that goes.  The last one was better but when the print got to the smaller area the defect came back which makes sense from a cooling aspect.

I'll have another real good one later with ABS!  But that's another issue!

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## jfkansas

It's really been so long since I've changed I don't remember. Nothing drastic I'm sure, my default for ABS is 235 and I wouldn't deviate from that more than 5c either way.

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## wirlybird

Ok, thanks.  I am at 230 so not far off I guess.  I may try up a but and see.

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## wirlybird

Ok so last test with the top off of the printer resulted in a pretty good print.  Still have issues but gaining on it.

I think I need to figure out how to slow the print speed for the top part of the model where it is at its smallest.  i.e. quickest travel time to complete the full layer.  Never messed with those settings in S3D before but I am guessing it will be the part about slow if layer time is under X seconds.

I have the bed dropping all the way down to 80 after the first several layers and still seem to have reasonable adhesion.

Things still to try:  Thinner layer (at .2 now).  Reduce extrusion temp a little, maybe 225 or 220 and see how it goes.

Making progress!

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