# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > FlashForge Forum >  Sore fingers, amazement, frustrations and hair spray: First days with my Creator Pro

## Serena

Hey everyone- Got my Creator Pro and I'm obsessed. And confused. I am so 
glad I found this forum. It has helped me so much all ready in working 
thru some things. Overall I am so so impressed with the print quality on 
this thing. It has literally blown my mind. Every time I successfully 
print something I am filled with a God-like "I made this!" joy. But then 
I tear my kapton tape, or burn my fingers, or get ABS stuck in my hair 
and it brings me down to earth pretty quick.  :Wink: 


I wanted to share a few pics hoping some of you may offer insight into 
what I need to tweak to improve my results. First off- the LEVELING. The 
struggle is so real.  :Frown:   I have spent so much time on it that the platform 
cooled off and I had to go thru the preheating and leveling process 
again. Ugh. When I first got my printer I went thru my bed leveling 
process and according to what I've read here I preheated the bed 
beforehand. Used the paper technique and felt it worked great. The few 
three or four prints I made were PERFECT. I was in awe of the exactness 
of the printing. I had prepared myself for them to be bad, so I was 
thrilled. Here's the first non-test print I made, an Olaf cookie cutter:

Photo Sep 24, 11 30 03 PM (1).jpg


Then several prints later I think I must have leveled incorrectly, (or 
maybe forgot to preheat it?) because it was too close and I dragged the 
extruder thru the ABS and tore the kapton tape. (Which also resulted in 
getting a bit of tape jammed in the extruder and then a clicking sound, etc but 
I fixed it using Geoff's instructions which worked perfectly thank you!) 
I removed the tape and used the blue tape they sent. From that point on 
it went downhill and I haven't gotten a great print since. The blue tape 
was awful and nothing stuck to it. The abs just dragged around behind 
the extruder. What a mess. Tried making acetone slurry, glue stick, 
clear glue, and hairspray. Nothing really worked very well. Finally got 
my order of kapton tape from amazon and applied that to the platform 
hoping that everything would be fixed and I'd be back in business like 
it was at first. While the sticking is better, it's still not good. It's 
extruding thin and stringy and the first layer doesn't stick completely. I 
tried doing a simple triangle print that worked great the first day so I 
knew the STL file wasn't the issue. Here's what my base layer looks like 
(it's on blue tape with glue base in this picture but it's doing the exact same 
thing on the plain kapton:
Photo Sep 26, 9 31 17 AM.jpg



Throughout all this I've kept everything the same as the first day when 
I printed successfully- same abs roll, same temps and using the same few 
STL files so I would know the issue isn't with any of that. While 
waiting for amazon to ship my kapton tape I got antsy so I tried a test 
file that came on the SD card and it printed great which blew my mind! 
then I saw it had rafts. The rafts had no trouble sticking and the abs 
didn't lay down stringy on them. (I still dont understand why?) I then tried 
printed a little owl figure, adding rafts to the print. It printed perfect- 
it's like the rafts were able to stick so it could then print fine once it had a solid 
base to work on. Here's the owl after rafts and supports were removed (sorry
not sure why it's sideways)

Photo Sep 26, 3 51 26 PM.jpg


At this point I wondered if the problem really is the stickiness of the 
platform, or maybe it's a leveling issue since it worked great with 
plain kapton at first. I tried leveling again (sore fingers!) and 
tweaking temperatures, preheating the bed a little higher than my print 
temp (112) and got same stringy, not really sticking, results. Then I 
tried hairspray on the kapton which worked and made it stick for the 
first print (yay!) and got a somewhat good print of that triangle piece 
(Legend of Zelda sign in case you wondered) all though still not as good 
as my earlier one. 


With the kapton and hairspray I'm getting the first layer to stick 
better but now it's curling. Here's a pic of the Batman Batarang I printed 
and a close up of the curling on the ears:

Photo Sep 27, 8 33 23 PM.jpg

Photo Sep 27, 8 40 07 PM.jpg


So my (primary) questions are why the curling? Is it a platform stick 
issue or a leveling issue or something else? Why can't I get a good 
first print on plain kapton when I could at first? I need a long term 
solution other than the hairspray because I can't be spraying it into my 
machine. Either I need to find something else, or get the glass bed and 
clips so I can spray it before I clip it on. And any other insight you 
can can offer. If you have read this whole lengthy mess to this point 
than I thank you now, because you are a better person than most.  :Embarrassment:

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## Teledog

Have an FFCx here, my configs anyway - "I";
-always preheat the bed prior to leveling it (via the front panel) to 110C for ~5 minutes or so, then do the bed leveling with a sheet of paper. (I only level it ~ every 2 weeks now, the more you use it, the less tweaking it seems to need)
-sometimes, but rarely - tweak the bed (move leveling knobs ever so slightly) on the  first layer as the print is running/on the fly , if it clicks a bit -  lower it, if not sticking- raise it a bit
-use kapton on the bed (never had good results with blue tape with ABS).
-preheat the bed prior to running any prints
-print ABS 95% of the time @ 222C to 224C
-have the bed at 102C for all ABS (edit /save Gcode for each file in RepG)   
-use ABS slurry made with MEK {Methyl Ethyl Ketone- hardware or plastics store}  to make stuff stick (MEK is horrible smelling stuff, a glue sniffers delight! Use lots of ventilation!!)
-also clean the bed with MEK 
-use IPA {90%+ isopropyl alcohol} to break the bond of large raft-less objects ,.. drizzle it around, then wait 30 seconds - then tap object off with a maple stick & rubber hammer (at the base)
  the IPA doesn't dissolve anything, it merely helps break the molecular bond -{ try it for removing old hot glue!} -use the MEK for cleaning the bed after, as some IPA has oils in it.

The first layer is often lousy, ..unless it's REALLY bad, I just let it run,- it often tends to clean itself up after a few layers. (I run ~0.22-0.27)
The curling might be from too high a bed temp - could be wrong.
Also, larger objects often tend to warp a bit - haven't figured that one out completely - sometimes running multiple copies of the object seems to help, as the plastic cools a bit between layers.

Again, those are my settings (with much assistance from Geoff!!!)  :Smile: 
I'm sure everyone's settings/results vary (document everything!)

G'Luck
TD

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## Geoff

> Have an FFCx here, my configs anyway - "I";
> -always preheat the bed prior to leveling it (via the front panel) to 110C for ~5 minutes or so, then do the bed leveling with a sheet of paper. (I only level it ~ every 2 weeks now, the more you use it, the less tweaking it seems to need)
> 
> TD


Any idea why you would do that? sorry have never heard of that one, nor have I ever heated my bed before levelling in over 2500 hours of printing, and I level my bed before each print so....   :Confused:

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## curious aardvark

I started not heating before bed levelling and didn't get great results.

You heat the bed to the printing temp before levelling because the metal expands and the calibration of a cool bed is different to the calibration of the same bed at a higher temp. 

I pretty much only calibrate after changing filiment or changing bed temp (for nylon or pla) But because miniscule differences in printhead to bed distance can make a lot of difference to how things print - I would say you should always calibrate the bed at the temp you intend to print at. 

It's definitely made a lot of difference to my prints. 

As for levelling - print a set of these knobs and you won't burn your fingers any more :-) 
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:243998
Use some of the spare nuts that came in your little bag of bits.

The other obvious thing is that your print bed isn't perfectly level. Mine wasn't.
I now use a 3mm aluminium sheet on top of the original bed and it's perfectly level. I can calibrate the edges and the centre is spot on. With the original bed I calibrated the edges and the centre was always much higher. ie: it bowed up in the middle. 
So it was impossible to calbrate more than the centre of the print bed. 

Hence I could print in the centre but anything of any size never stuck properly. 

Things are much better now.

Change filament and use the other nozzle. 
Looks like you might have some blockage. 

I got two rolls of abs from flashforge. A white roll that was amazing stuff and a blue roll that blocked my printhead after a couple of prints. 
I haven't touched the blue since and have had no more blockages. 

I've bought a bunch of cheap filament off ebay and so far - it's all been good. 
The 'silver' was a dull grey, but that's my only issue with the cheap stuff. 

But yeah that triangle definitely looks like a partially clogged nozzle to me.

The owl doesn't need supports. 

Printing with raft really works well. Okay you don't get a great finish on the bottom - but it's pretty much bombproof. 
For larger prints you still need a perfectly level bed though. 

This whole diy 3d printing arena is still very much more of an art than a science. 
What works for me - won't necessarily work for you - and vice versa. There are so many factors to take into account. 

But the basics should stand most people in good stead. 
The most important thing is a perfectly level bed that's calibrated correctly. 

Second is finding something your prints stick to - I currently use blue tape. But given dargonfly's experience am seriously considering the build tak stuff.

Third is getting temps both of the bed and printhead to match with the filament. 
I've found that nylon 618 will stick really well at 30c but not at 20 or 40. Likewise different rolls of abs print better at different temperatures. 

Fourth is getting to grips with the software. Print speeds, don't seem to make much difference to me - but they might to you. 

I don't do much printing without rafts as it just takes a tiny bit of rouge filament to screw the whole thing up. But hopefully I will when I've sat down and really worked my way through proftweak and got some kind of control over my first layer speed and extrusion. 

The thing that's made the biggest difference in the quality of my prints (not my ability to print, but how well they turn out) is adding a ducted fan to blow on the area being printed. 
that's thoroughly recommended. 

I bought a 24volt fan and hooked it up to the 24volt stepper motor cooling fan connector on the motherboard. Works great. 
Use these for the duct setup.



> It's these two:
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:295317
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:350649
> Combined together, both printed in ABS. As you can see in the first link  it has ducts that redirect the air to where the extruder is placing the  material, thus cooling the extruded material that much faster! Because  you want the material to cool from +-230 degrees to 30 degrees as fast as  possible so that it retains its shape and doesn't warp.


So there are a bunch of things that all go together to make a succesful print. 
Try all of the above and if none of that works - I'm sure we can think of other stuff for you to try :-)

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## Dargonfly

Well, looks like you already got a lot of suggestions for the curling edges. I'll sum up what I've done with my Flashforge to get rid of curling edges:
- Level the build plate 1~2 layers of paper between the nozzle at all points (my plate is pretty bend, so at some points it's way more.. but it still works.)
- As mentioned, when using a heated build plate (for ABS), do the leveling while heated to prevent any extra expansion tolerances when starting your print.
- Use kapton tape or painters tape or BuildTak or glue stick or hairspray or basically whatever works to get it to stick.

At this point your material SHOULD stick for the first few layers if it immediately starts curling; check the above steps.

If your print starts curling beyond this point (in the 'air' or in pointy areas) then it's most likely that you are adding too much heat in your workpiece:
- Lower extruder temperature if possible
- Add more cooling to your workpiece (look at the air duct that Curious Aardvark linked, it works beautifully!)

That should get everything working without curling. Worst case scenario if the model just has some really tricky pointy parts (which means; relatively high temps in a small pointy area allowing it to curl anyway...) then you could always adjust the model a bit or add rafts / supports. But that will of course increase the material cost and decrease the exterior quality of the print due to break-off parts.

Keep trying and keep us posted. I too got a lot of useful and good responses when I joined this board and I will do my best to return the favor.

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## Serena

> -print ABS 95% of the time @ 222C to 224C
> -have the bed at 102C for all ABS (edit /save Gcode for each file in RepG)   
> -use ABS slurry made with MEK {Methyl Ethyl Ketone- hardware or plastics store}  to make stuff stick (MEK is horrible smelling stuff, a glue sniffers delight! Use lots of ventilation!!)
> -also clean the bed with MEK 
> The curling might be from too high a bed temp - could be wrong.


Thanks for the specs- I do think i will try lowering temps and see if that helps. That slurry sounds interesting too. May give that a go. More fumes? Nah-between the acetone, the plastics, and the hairspray I may not even notice.  :Wink: 




> Any idea why you would do that? sorry have never heard of that one, nor have I ever heated my bed before levelling in over 2500 hours of printing, and I level my bed before each print so....


I've read in many places to level after heating- I haven't tried it any other way so I don't know if it matters or not. Seems to me if you have a good tight platform and its really flat that it wouldn't matter. BTW- I printed the most amazing Groot head and was just looking at the model in Thingiverse- think maybe it's your upload? If so it's brilliant! Turned out great. 




> As for levelling - print a set of these knobs and you won't burn your fingers any more :-) 
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:243998
> Use some of the spare nuts that came in your little bag of bits.


Thank you! I remembered reading about those somewhere- you saved me from looking it up. At this point I've read so much its all starting to blend together.  :EEK!: 




> The other obvious thing is that your print bed isn't perfectly level. Mine wasn't.
> I now use a 3mm aluminium sheet on top of the original bed and it's perfectly level. I can calibrate the edges and the centre is spot on. With the original bed I calibrated the edges and the centre was always much higher. ie: it bowed up in the middle. 
> So it was impossible to calbrate more than the centre of the print bed.


Yes! I have read the thread about your alu bed. Sounds interesting. At this point when I level with paper I can't seem to get it the same on all points. i don't know if its me or the platform. I tend to think if it is warped it's not by much and it's just me not knowing what the heck I'm doing. All these little minute adjustments can drive you crazy after a while. But the fact that some of my prints have turned out good tells me it's me and I'm just getting lucky sometimes. 




> Change filament and use the other nozzle. 
> Looks like you might have some blockage. 
> But yeah that triangle definitely looks like a partially clogged nozzle to me.
> Printing with raft really works well. Okay you don't get a great finish on the bottom - but it's pretty much bombproof. 
> For larger prints you still need a perfectly level bed though. 
> This whole diy 3d printing arena is still very much more of an art than a science. 
> What works for me - won't necessarily work for you - and vice versa. There are so many factors to take into account. 
> But the basics should stand most people in good stead. 
> The most important thing is a perfectly level bed that's calibrated correctly.


Rafts definitely help. I don't mind using them at this point- I'm hoping it's something I will need to do less often as I get a feel for this. It is an art- that's part of what I find so fascinating about it!  :Smile:  I didn't consider it might be partially clogged. I will try using the other extruder and see if it changes anything. 
Now, when you (and others) say make sure the bed is "calibrated"- does that mean leveling? Or something else?





> If your print starts curling beyond this point (in the 'air' or in pointy areas) then it's most likely that you are adding too much heat in your workpiece:
> - Lower extruder temperature if possible
> - Add more cooling to your workpiece (look at the air duct that Curious Aardvark linked, it works beautifully!)
> Keep trying and keep us posted. I too got a lot of useful and good responses when I joined this board and I will do my best to return the favor.


Yeah it does seem it's too hot- especially since there is a little burning on the edges. At this point I'm using everything at just about default settings so I will start tweaking some of the temps and see if it helps anything. Yes I loved your "Marvin" thread- very helpful to see what other people try and how it turns out for them! I haven't even tried PLA yet. It looks more translucent in pictures which I think looks great on certain items. Does it look like that IRL?  I thought my printer may come with a roll of each but both are ABS. 

Thanks so much to all of you for helping with this! Just knowing there are real live people to ask for help has made trying to learn this new toy much less intimidating!  :Smile:

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## Dargonfly

> Yeah it does seem it's too hot- especially since there is a little burning on the edges. At this point I'm using everything at just about default settings so I will start tweaking some of the temps and see if it helps anything. Yes I loved your "Marvin" thread- very helpful to see what other people try and how it turns out for them! I haven't even tried PLA yet. It looks more translucent in pictures which I think looks great on certain items. Does it look like that IRL? I thought my printer may come with a roll of each but both are ABS. 
> 
> Thanks so much to all of you for helping with this! Just knowing there are real live people to ask for help has made trying to learn this new toy much less intimidating!


To set up the right temperature, you should extrude a bit of your material before printing products. Because this supposedly differs for every material you buy, meaning ABS from manufacturer A doesn't equal ABS from manufacturer B.

A good way would be to connect via USB and simply heat up the extruder and extrude a bit of material. If it works good (without clicking or anything), then lower temperature by 5 degrees and try again.
Once it start clicking or not extruding well (MIN TEMP) just increase that temp by 5~10 degrees and you should be all set.

I recently lowered my temp by a lot resulting in much better accuracy of my prints, will post a showcase topic about it later today.

Regarding PLA: if the walls are thin enough it will allow light to pass through easily giving it a milky-translucent appearance. Though any walls larger than 1[mm] will nullify this effect almost completely.

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## Serena

Ok quick update- yesterday morning i spent a very long time on leveling my platform. I felt like it had gotten way off and I just wasn't getting it right. What confused me most is that when i forst got it I was able to print clean on just the kapton tape with nothing else. But since then I had tried everything from blue tape, ABS slurry, glue stick, clear school glue, hairspray and all combinations thereof. So I got out an actual level and tested the table it was sitting on first, then the bed itself and leveled just the bed in every way I could until I was convinced it was level from  that standpoint. Then I wen into the actual leveling process with the paper and the extruder. By the way- I still feel like it should have four adjustment points. Maybe it doesn't make any real difference, but in my brain I want four corners to move. Anyway, after much tweaking, several failed test prints, a leveling tester I downloaded from thinkiverse and 3 hours of time I got a good stick on my first layer. Yay! From that point on it was smooth sailing. You read how important leveling is, but I guess it can't be over emphasized. I went from nothing sticking to clean prints everytime on plain kapton tape. No glues, etc needed. Now, this could, of course, change at any minute, but I feel like I have made some learning progress. Here's a Tardis print a did yesterday:

Photo Sep 29, 4 36 00 PM.jpg

Today when I get home I plan on doing that temperature testing that you mentioned Dargonfly. I think that will help a lot. I am most excited about trying my own designs but I want to get better with the process first. Also, there are some jacked up files on Thingiverse! Definitely learning to only use the ones that have printed successfully and check them with meshmixer or Netfabb.  

Will keep you guys updated.  :Smile:

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## Dargonfly

> Ok quick update- ...


Good to hear you are making progress!

When I look at the Tardis print I notice two things; 
1) The corners of the first layers are 'bloopy' - might mean that your bed is a little bit too close (or the temp of extruder and heat bed combined are high resulting in material remelting)
2) The bridging isn't solid yet; this can be improved by cooling the material faster after it coming out of the extruder - or by increasing bridging speed / decreasing extrusion during bridging.

That said; it already looks pretty good and I think that just adding some cooling on the workpiece/extruder and tweaking the temperatures will already give you the results you are looking for.
Keep up the good work and keep us posted! :Smile:

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## jfkansas

> Ok quick update- yesterday morning i spent a very long time on leveling my platform. I felt like it had gotten way off and I just wasn't getting it right. What confused me most is that when i forst got it I was able to print clean on just the kapton tape with nothing else. But since then I had tried everything from blue tape, ABS slurry, glue stick, clear school glue, hairspray and all combinations thereof. So I got out an actual level and tested the table it was sitting on first, then the bed itself and leveled just the bed in every way I could until I was convinced it was level from  that standpoint. Then I wen into the actual leveling process with the paper and the extruder. By the way- I still feel like it should have four adjustment points. Maybe it doesn't make any real difference, but in my brain I want four corners to move. Anyway, after much tweaking, several failed test prints, a leveling tester I downloaded from thinkiverse and 3 hours of time I got a good stick on my first layer. Yay! From that point on it was smooth sailing. You read how important leveling is, but I guess it can't be over emphasized. I went from nothing sticking to clean prints everytime on plain kapton tape. No glues, etc needed. Now, this could, of course, change at any minute, but I feel like I have made some learning progress. Here's a Tardis print a did yesterday:
> 
> Photo Sep 29, 4 36 00 PM.jpg
> 
> Today when I get home I plan on doing that temperature testing that you mentioned Dargonfly. I think that will help a lot. I am most excited about trying my own designs but I want to get better with the process first. Also, there are some jacked up files on Thingiverse! Definitely learning to only use the ones that have printed successfully and check them with meshmixer or Netfabb.  
> 
> Will keep you guys updated.



Nope, 3 adjustment points is all that is needed on a solid surface. 4 would be a more solid support structure though, but for leveling 3 points is all that is needed.

With the Creator X/pro the adjustment points are a little closer together than they should be. What happens is if you set the extruder gap on the far right side, the left side will teeter up and be too close. Then you lower the left side and the right side teeters up. Try to set your extruder gaps right over the top of the adjustment points.  

In my opinion you are spending far too much time on the "leveling". It really is a couple minute procedure to check and you should never have to make huge adjustments. I don't turn my adjusters more than 1/8 turn once I have a relatively flat surface.

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## Serena

> Good to hear you are making progress!
> 
> When I look at the Tardis print I notice two things; 
> 1) The corners of the first layers are 'bloopy' - might mean that your bed is a little bit too close (or the temp of extruder and heat bed combined are high resulting in material remelting)
> 2) The bridging isn't solid yet; this can be improved by cooling the material faster after it coming out of the extruder - or by increasing bridging speed / decreasing extrusion during bridging.
> 
> That said; it already looks pretty good and I think that just adding some cooling on the workpiece/extruder and tweaking the temperatures will already give you the results you are looking for.
> Keep up the good work and keep us posted!


Yes I completely agree on the "bloopy-ness".  :Smile:  So just to clarify my understanding- when you are bridging and it droops down the material is staying hot too long and needs to harden up quicker so I can either add fans, decrease temps or increase the speed during that section. Or possibly combinations of those. I will be working with temps first- since those are easiest for me to tweak. I havent tried a print where I adjusted the speed manually during different sections ( I am assuming you can do that?) so i will have to learn that next. So much to learn! It's so much fun though! I can't even believe how much I'm enjoying this. I literally cannot wait to get home and play.  :Smile:  




> With the Creator X/pro the adjustment points are a little closer together than they should be. What happens is if you set the extruder gap on the far right side, the left side will teeter up and be too close. Then you lower the left side and the right side teeters up. Try to set your extruder gaps right over the top of the adjustment points.  
> 
> In my opinion you are spending far too much time on the "leveling". It really is a couple minute procedure to check and you should never have to make huge adjustments. I don't turn my adjusters more than 1/8 turn once I have a relatively flat surface.


Yes! That see-saw effect is what makes it tricky. I agree leveling should not be that time consuming.  Or at least once you have a relatively level bed. Now it's not taking me long at all. Just tiny little tweaks here and there. I think in my inexperience I had gotten it pretty screwed up. Hopefully I will know better next time. I can tell I am getting a "feel" for it. And I think that's half the battle.

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## curious aardvark

> Now, when you (and others) say make sure the bed is "calibrated"- does that mean leveling? Or something else?


Means getting it level. :-) 

My printer has four levelling knobs. And as jfkansas says - it doesn't take more than a minute or two. And i don't do it that often. 

I've come back from the tct show with a bed coating that I will try before revealing. As genuine as the 3dpunlimited people were - I'm still not entirely  convinced this bed coating isn't a windup for the englishmen. 
That said, they use a 1meter square glass print bed and there definitely wasn't anything visible on it. And they have to keep prints flat and stuck to the bed for days at  a time so they are definitely using something better than the norm. Even so, it's that off the wall, I have to try before telling :-) 

But stay tuned to be potentially blown away by something really bizarre :-)   
Nope weirder than even that very weird thing you just thought of.

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## Dargonfly

> Yes I completely agree on the "bloopy-ness".  So just to clarify my understanding- when you are bridging and it droops down the material is staying hot too long and needs to harden up quicker so I can either add fans, decrease temps or increase the speed during that section. Or possibly combinations of those. I will be working with temps first- since those are easiest for me to tweak. I havent tried a print where I adjusted the speed manually during different sections ( I am assuming you can do that?) so i will have to learn that next. So much to learn! It's so much fun though! I can't even believe how much I'm enjoying this. I literally cannot wait to get home and play.


Yes, you got it.  :Cool: 
Adjusting speed during different sections depends on the software: some can increase/decrease speed and/or extrusion rate during bridging (and then you can of course define what the software should see as a 'bridge'.
Other software allows you to create different processes for sections, thus allowing to create a section with a different speed.
If you do a lot of gcode editing you can probably do even more.. but I cannot confirm this. I only have experience with the above - but even that (changing speed/temp during a build) is not something you have/want to do often, because it's a lot of experimenting and doesn't necessarily give better results.
I currently have two setting-profiles; one for parts with infill and one for hollow parts. I open them and adjust some settings depending on the print, save it to SD, and start the build. (assuming my bed is level)

But I agree, it's a lot of fun to play with and there's is a lot to learn and even a lot to experiment in areas that others didn't dig that deep in yet.  :Smile:

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## Serena

> Means getting it level. :-) 
> 
> My printer has four levelling knobs. And as jfkansas says - it doesn't take more than a minute or two. And i don't do it that often. 
> 
> I've come back from the tct show with a bed coating that I will try before revealing. As genuine as the 3dpunlimited people were - I'm still not entirely  convinced this bed coating isn't a windup for the englishmen. 
> That said, they use a 1meter square glass print bed and there definitely wasn't anything visible on it. And they have to keep prints flat and stuck to the bed for days at  a time so they are definitely using something better than the norm. Even so, it's that off the wall, I have to try before telling :-) 
> 
> But stay tuned to be potentially blown away by something really bizarre :-)   
> Nope weirder than even that very weird thing you just thought of.


Well that's mysterious! We will be waiting to hear this bizarre, off the wall technique. ;-)

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## curious aardvark

lol well i can say categorically it does not work for abs. 

I will try it with pla - as it did create a sticky surface, just not for abs. 

I still think it was a wind up :-)

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## Stigern

I see some use Freeze Spray to make models come off more easily, anyone got some experience with it?

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## curious aardvark

I use 0.2mm thick wall paper smoother/scraper from poundland to get prints off. never had any issues.

You actually get 4 of different sizes for a whole £1 :-)

Also means I don't have to change the blue tape more than every couple of weeks.

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## jfkansas

If you go to home depot or lowes, they have drywall knifes that are "full flex". These work great since you can flex them flat and slide easily under a print with less chance of tearing tape.

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## Geoff

Yep, full flex knife is the way to go. I use a Stanley knife, but I extend it all the way out, those separating blades are really flexible. 

Glad to hear you are going well with it Serena, I've not said much in this thread, these guys prob have more experience than me with the Flashforge X, there does seem to be a fair amount different between those and the old one I've got. 

As for stick, sorry, for me can't beat blue tape and PLA now... 

Out of 3 machines, a kossel, prusa and FF, I get the same exact result with my PLA now and that is dead flat prints that will stick forever unless you pry them off.. 

Totally non heated bed, 200c nozzle and blue tape on glass ...  and if there is ever a stick issue, I use a kids glue stick on the blue tape before printing. Best stuff ever. Best way to get zero corner lift from your prints all the way through the print.

----------


## Serena

> lol well i can say categorically it does not work for abs. 
> 
> I will try it with pla - as it did create a sticky surface, just not for abs. 
> 
> I still think it was a wind up :-)


Cool. Keep us updated.  :Smile: 




> If you go to home depot or lowes, they have drywall knifes that are "full flex". These work great since you can flex them flat and slide easily under a print with less chance of tearing tape.


I will definitely check that out- thanks for the tip! Especially since last night I tore my tape wedging a print off. Grrr.... retaping that kapton is something I really don't enjoy doing. 




> Yep, full flex knife is the way to go. I use a Stanley knife, but I extend it all the way out, those separating blades are really flexible. 
> 
> Glad to hear you are going well with it Serena, I've not said much in this thread, these guys prob have more experience than me with the Flashforge X, there does seem to be a fair amount different between those and the old one I've got. 
> 
> As for stick, sorry, for me can't beat blue tape and PLA now... 
> 
> Out of 3 machines, a kossel, prusa and FF, I get the same exact result with my PLA now and that is dead flat prints that will stick forever unless you pry them off.. 
> 
> Totally non heated bed, 200c nozzle and blue tape on glass ...  and if there is ever a stick issue, I use a kids glue stick on the blue tape before printing. Best stuff ever. Best way to get zero corner lift from your prints all the way through the print.


I have learned tons from the tips you've given on this forum- you have been a big help all ready.  :Smile:  I haven't tried PLA yet but I'm thinking I really want to soon. In my early researching it seemed like many thought ABS was trickier to get nailed down and PLA was a bit easier. Not sure if that's really true or not. But my thinking was to start with the hardest and go from there. Of course, that thinking tends to get me in trouble! ;-) I know I will be printing a lot of cookie cutters and those do better with ABS so they can be put in dishwasher. (Which i tested and it didn't melt-yay!) But I feel like PLA has better colors, and I would much prefer working with blue tape than kapton which is ridiculously easy to tear and a pain to put on without bubbles. 

The last couple of days I have been focusing on the design aspect of the process, and that has it's own GIANT learning curve. I'd like to ask- what is everyone's prefered software choice for creating a 3D model? I've been doing graphic design for 12 years, and I _thought_ that 3D modeling would be a natural segue from there. But it's more like trying to do everything I'm used to doing with my left hand. The whole concept is just different. I've chosen to use Blender which is a ginormous program and a bit overwhelming. I am starting to get the hang of it and I've got the basics but sometimes the littlest things can take me hours to figure out. I also thought that I would be able to use the vast amount of vectors I all ready own as a starting base for designs, or at least as some embellishments,  but there doesn't seem to be a way to do that. I tried Rhino and didn't care for that, and I don't want to spend the money on Maya or 3Ds Max. Tinkercad was way to simple and doesn't let me do all my (overly) complicated ideas. As of now my workflow is modeling in Blender, checking my mesh and sizing in MeshMixer, and then Simplify3D to print. I would love to hear what other people have found works for them.

----------


## curious aardvark

well the 3dp bed coating was a definite windup. 
I'm wondering just how many people came away from the show and wiped their build plate down with beer !
Yeah i know, but they were very persuasive and it was a cohesive effort across the whole team. 

I tried it twice - so they definitely got me :-) 

My biggest problem with blue tape and pla is getting LESS stick ! 
Think I might be getting there. I've de-calibrated slightly and lowered the pla temp to the point where any lower and it won't stick at all. 


For designing I love openscad. I can't draw, never could, never will. 
But I do have very good visualisation and 3d perception. So I know what i want and where I want it and openscad lets me just tell it what I want and where to put it. 

It can look  a little disconcerting at first. But once you realise the syntax is the same no matter what - you just get used to sticking in the brackets and the rest is basic arithmetic. 

You can make something simple like an open topped box with three lines of basic code. Takes about 30 seconds. try that in a gui cad package. 

The more you use it, the easier it is to do complicated things. Some of the most complex models on thingiverse are done in openscad.

----------


## Geoff

> well the 3dp bed coating was a definite windup. 
> I'm wondering just how many people came away from the show and wiped their build plate down with beer !
> Yeah i know, but they were very persuasive and it was a cohesive effort across the whole team. 
> 
> I tried it twice - so they definitely got me :-) 
> 
> My biggest problem with blue tape and pla is getting LESS stick ! 
> Think I might be getting there. I've de-calibrated slightly and lowered the pla temp to the point where any lower and it won't stick at all. 
> 
> ...


Openscad still escapes me lol sorry, even thou by nature I am an old school programmer, when it comes to modelling I find it very hard to go from a visual design perspective to a mathematical one. After 5 years of blender, I know all my metrics, I know which machines and what software screws up those metrics (like makerware reduces ALL models by 0.8% scale when printing.  keep that in mind) so I sort have been sticking with Blender and RepG/makerware/pronterface

For PLA not to stick, that's wierd, how hot is your bed? i'd even try turning it off completely.

----------


## Roxy

> For designing I love openscad. I can't draw, never could, never will. 
> ...
> The more you use it, the easier it is to do complicated things. Some of the most complex models on thingiverse are done in openscad.


*OpenScad Rocks!*   (But somebody needs to fix the render engine.  The stupid thing takes forever to do its thing.)

----------


## Serena

> For designing I love openscad. I can't draw, never could, never will. 
> But I do have very good visualisation and 3d perception. So I know what i want and where I want it and openscad lets me just tell it what I want and where to put it.


I think the two of us put together would be the perfect designer.  :Big Grin:  I love to draw and am very visual. I resent anything that makes me do math. In terms of working with software-If I can't see it than it doesn't exist. 




> Openscad still escapes me lol sorry, even thou by nature I am an old school programmer, when it comes to modelling I find it very hard to go from a visual design perspective to a mathematical one. After 5 years of blender, I know all my metrics, I know which machines and what software screws up those metrics (like makerware reduces ALL models by 0.8% scale when printing.  keep that in mind) so I sort have been sticking with Blender and RepG/makerware/pronterface
> 
> For PLA not to stick, that's wierd, how hot is your bed? i'd even try turning it off completely.





> *OpenScad Rocks!*   (But somebody needs to fix the render engine.  The stupid thing takes forever to do its thing.)


It's always interesting to me how differently people go about similar tasks. The beauty is there is so many software options out there everyone can find something that works for them. The down side to that is when you are new to it all, the researching and finding what you like is so overwhelming. Too many choices!  Geoff sounds like you and I think much the same on modeling. I definitely like to find what works and gives me the visuals I want and then stick to it. I just hate my choppy workflow at the moment. But it will come in time... What I've learned so far is that half the battle is knowing the questions to ask (Or google). When I say "texture" i think of surface changes- physical highs and lows on the surface. I'm learning that in 3d modeling texture means an applied material that simulates the look of texture but doesn't effect the actual geometry in any way. I spent many hours learning some great techniques that will only show up on 3d renders but would be non existent in printing. (This may be majorly stating the obvious to you guys- but it's something that was so hard for me to find explained anywhere!) Sigh....So today my project is learning displacement maps on Blender. Since that seems to be the only way I've found to get what I'm looking for. If anyone has any insight on that I would be most grateful.  :Smile: 

Also, on to actual printing-so I had this strange result. Wondered if anyone can tell me what the heck happened with this print:
Photo Oct 07, 9 10 44 AM.jpg

It's an ampersand that I  did with no infill, 0.1mm height and 2 shells. My first time using no infill-Is that why the top layer turned out like this? When I look at the slicing it looks solid.

----------


## Roxy

The problem is without any infill, it had a hard time bridging the large  gaps.    In Slic3r, you could bump the number of top layers up to  something like 10.   Because with what you have right now, another 4 or 5  top layers would have been able to bridge those openings completely.

----------


## curious aardvark

or just use 5% infill and it'll have something to bridge across. 
Hollow things are usually things with curves, not usually things with large flat areas. 
Also without active cooling you'll get more sag and less bridge. 

For the sake of adding a couple grams infill, and a little extra printing time - but getting a perfect model every time. I usually add the infill. 

Anyway talking of prints that blow you away. And to prove to myself that I've got the pla settings nailed down. I printed a chainmail bracelet. Designed in openscad :-) 
Not by me - I'm a long way from being able to do this. 

chainbraceletfull_800x179.jpg

Zoomed in
chainbraceletzoom_800x567.jpg

Flexible
chainbraceletbend_800x517.jpg

Fully Working catch.
chainbraceletclose_800x600.jpg


Second one being printed, just to prove I can do it again :-) 
chainbraceletprint_800x237.jpg

There's a bit of support on the tongue of the catch that needs removing. Sharp knife and a file did that. 
And viola. If you know anyone who's not blown away by your 3d printer - show them this and I guarentee they will be ! 

My less stick pla basically devolved down to extrusion temp. 
Keep lowering it till it doesn't stick and then add a few degrees till it does. Job done. 
This came off pretty easily. 
Only takes  an hour to print. 
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:399474/#files

The one I printed is the small one - I'll do the big one next.  I have pretty thick wrists (officially large bones - I looked it up). 
This small one should do most women and kids. The big one is another 3 inches or so in length. 

Oh yeah - one word of caution. This took makerware a number of hours to slice. I don't know how many I went to bed and left it to it. 

I'll try the same thing on simplify3d later and see how much faster it is. Not that much I don't think. 
We'll see. 

Oh yeah print settings. 
60mms, 0.27 layer (what it says to do it at) 190 temp and 50c bed temp.

I know I don't need to heat the bed with pla - but making it warm keeps all the variables as samey as possible for consistent results.

----------


## Roxy

Very Cool!!!!!   I bet you can feel the individual links break free when you bend it the first time!

UPDATE:  It takes hours to compile and render in Open_SCAD.   I guess the Slic3r will take a similar amount of time.

----------


## Stigern

Nice looking print there  :Smile: 

Just amazing! Didn't know that was possible.

----------


## Serena

> or just use 5% infill and it'll have something to bridge across. 
> Hollow things are usually things with curves, not usually things with large flat areas. 
> Also without active cooling you'll get more sag and less bridge. 
> 
> For the sake of adding a couple grams infill, and a little extra printing time - but getting a perfect model every time. I usually add the infill. 
> I know I don't need to heat the bed with pla - but making it warm keeps all the variables as samey as possible for consistent results.


That bracelet is totally cool! Wow I will have to try one of those! 




> The problem is without any infill, it had a hard time bridging the large  gaps.    In Slic3r, you could bump the number of top layers up to  something like 10.   Because with what you have right now, another 4 or 5  top layers would have been able to bridge those openings completely.


Thanks to you both on the infill feedback. I figured that was probably it. I tried it again on 20 infill and a little smaller so I could test it quicker and it worked good. Will try it bigger again and make sure.  :Smile:

----------


## Geoff

> That bracelet is totally cool! Wow I will have to try one of those! 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to you both on the infill feedback. I figured that was probably it. I tried it again on 20 infill and a little smaller so I could test it quicker and it worked good. Will try it bigger again and make sure.


Remember if you are using makerware especially,  the infill is across the *entire* model on the build plate.

Example...

lets say you print an *entire* chess set on one plate, all pieces, in _one_ print  and you set it to 10% infill.

It's not going to infill each chess piece at 10%. It is going to fill the entire plate at a 10% ratio, so some pieces will be completely hollow, and some might have infill.. some might have alot, a little, or none.. depending on where they are placed on the bed.

So imagine that chainmail is a chess set, too low infill and you will find some links get none, and some do.

However, if you print 1 single item and set it to %10 infill, that item gets the entire %10 infill. The chainmail I'd be doing at 3 shells, or 50% infill, because at 3 shells it omits the infill because the links are thick enough.

----------


## curious aardvark

I'm pretty sure I printed the chainmail with 0% infill and only 2 shells.
Basically there's no piece thick enough to worry about infill. 
Could have been 10% though - is there any way of reading an x3g file to tell what the settings are ? 

Anyway it was either 10% or 0% infill and 2 shells. 
And the links really didn't need breaking. Not like the gear wheel - this was pretty much loose when i peeled it off the bed. 

Just reduced the clasp size on the bracelet - and yep - it's looking like a long openscad compile. 
Even on my quadcore desktop. 
Basically he's got a 10mm slab of plastic before the male tongue of the clasp. As far as I cna see it's just to match the size of the femal component. Which is daft as it gives you  a 20mm thick solid bit of unbendy plastic. I've just cut the 10mm block down to 2mm. Which is sufficient for strength and should give the bracelet a bit more flexibility.  

It is an amazing thing. Needs to be a bit longer, Presumably i can add more rows. 

Just a shame I can't do it in abs. As I could mix the two different thermochromatic filament I've got. 
That said I'll probably buy some thermo chromatic pla for the job :-)

----------


## Geoff

> I'm pretty sure I printed the chainmail with 0% infill and only 2 shells.
> Basically there's no piece thick enough to worry about infill. 
> Could have been 10% though - is there any way of reading an x3g file to tell what the settings are ? 
> 
> Anyway it was either 10% or 0% infill and 2 shells. 
> And the links really didn't need breaking. Not like the gear wheel - this was pretty much loose when i peeled it off the bed. 
> 
> Just reduced the clasp size on the bracelet - and yep - it's looking like a long openscad compile. 
> Even on my quadcore desktop. 
> ...


I think it's parametric isnt it? I am not an openscad man, but from what ive seen you can make an entire suit of this stuff, silver PLA would look kick ass.

The gear wheel.. don't get me started... took me 3 goes before I could print that with a low enough tolerance to actually get the thing to turn.. oh and I finally after all this time managed to print a perfect secret heart box! I got this fluro yellow PLA that is really really good, no curls, no globbling... its just a shame its fluro yellow!
.......................

----------


## curious aardvark

lol sounds like the same pla I'm using. 
Well My first two gear wheels needed electric powered help to get them turning. But worked fine. 
Yeah the mail bracelet is parametric - it's just reading the script to work out ho to add rows I'm struggling with. Changing the clasp parts - that I can understand. But all the weird stuff for the chainmail - be years, if ever, before any of that makes sense to me :-) 
Arithmetic I can do - but complex maths, just never interested me. 

The gearwheel too is an openscad file. Pretty sure you can adjust the gap between gears. There's no reason you couldn't print one with pla that came off the bed freewheeling.

----------


## Geoff

> lol sounds like the same pla I'm using. 
> Well My first two gear wheels needed electric powered help to get them turning. But worked fine. 
> Yeah the mail bracelet is parametric - it's just reading the script to work out ho to add rows I'm struggling with. Changing the clasp parts - that I can understand. But all the weird stuff for the chainmail - be years, if ever, before any of that makes sense to me :-) 
> Arithmetic I can do - but complex maths, just never interested me. 
> 
> The gearwheel too is an openscad file. Pretty sure you can adjust the gap between gears. There's no reason you couldn't print one with pla that came off the bed freewheeling.


I loaded it into blender, select the gears, move the origin to the centre of the geometry on each gear as a seperate mesh and rescale them at their individual origins by 1mm, that's how I got it working anyway, otherwise the thing would just fuse together.

----------


## Serena

Made one! Thanks for sharing that design Aardvark. That is super fun! This one is ABS. Simpliy3d took less than a minute to slice it- think you said you had that one... it is always pretty quick. I would think that would be a good leveling test print to do too. If I had two I'd feel like Wonder Woman.  :Cool: 

Photo Oct 08, 9 18 08 AM.jpg

----------


## curious aardvark

in abs ? That's impressive. 

With or without a raft ? 

Once I've tested the new smaller clasp I'll upload that as a mix. 
Currently making some bits for my mates workbench :-)
And as I paid for it I really ought to start using simplify3d.

----------


## Serena

> in abs ? That's impressive. 
> 
> With or without a raft ? 
> 
> Once I've tested the new smaller clasp I'll upload that as a mix. 
> Currently making some bits for my mates workbench :-)
> And as I paid for it I really ought to start using simplify3d.


no raft. 0 infill. The clasp on one side was a little funky but it still works fine. Yeah I really like Simplify3d. I think it's a really good option for beginners who just want to start with basic settings at first. And it does slice crazy fast and does great break away supports that don't leave any damage.

----------


## jdg56

> Cool. Keep us updated. 
> 
> I will definitely check that out- thanks for the tip! Especially since last night I tore my tape wedging a print off. Grrr.... retaping that kapton is something I really don't enjoy doing.


When I got my (first) glass bed, I was concerned about how to apply the kapton tape. I'm afraid I didn't keep the link, but Googling how to apply kapton tape turned up a Youtube clip that is an excellent solution.

This is not suitable for the built-in bed, as it involved liquid, which will not play well with the bed heater.

parts: bed, bowl of water, healthy dollop of dish washing soap (liquid), your kapton tape, old credit card

Wash the removable bed and dry it, to clean it off. In a small bowl, mix some water and a healthy dollop of dish-washing detergent. Measure out your kapton so it's ready to go, put the bed on a towel to sop up the excess liquid, and then liberally coat the bed with the soapy water. I mean, a total lot of liquid on the bed.

When you place the kapton tape on the bed, it will not stick. It will float on the water, letting you align the edges. Once it's square to the edges, hold it down in one spot and use the edge of the credit card to gently squeegee out the water from under the tape. You'll need to do this multiple times before it starts to stick to the bed, but when it starts to stick on the end you're squeegeeing, squeegee the end you've been holding.  Any air bubbles will be driven out along with the soapy water, so you wind up with a nice flat bed with no bubbles. if it shifts the first few times you squeegee, you can just reposition it, since it's still floating on some water.

After the entire bed is 'dry',  I fold the tape under the ends and let it  stick to the bottom of the bed to hold it in place. With my glass beds, I  try to make sure that the overhang folded under the bed is longer on  one end than the other, so I can orient the glass the same way after I  remove it to wash of the glue stick I use for my abs printing. The  plates I have are pretty even, but one of them is off by about .2mm  between one corner and it's opposite, so I level it in one orientation  and then always install it the same way after that. If you're doing this with an aluminum bed, I suppose you could just write 'R' on the right side with a permanent marker, since the tape is transparent.

That's it. It works flawlessly for me. I do a preheat cycle to drive out any water that may remain under the bed.

I have 6" kapton. This should work with narrower strips, if you do one at a time. Once the kapton is stuck down, it doesn't seem to mind repeated washing.

Cheers,

John

----------


## Geoff

> When I got my (first) glass bed, I was concerned about how to apply the kapton tape. I'm afraid I didn't keep the link, but Googling how to apply kapton tape turned up a Youtube clip that is an excellent solution.
> 
> This is not suitable for the built-in bed, as it involved liquid, which will not play well with the bed heater.
> 
> parts: bed, bowl of water, healthy dollop of dish washing soap (liquid), your kapton tape, old credit card
> 
> Wash the removable bed and dry it, to clean it off. In a small bowl, mix some water and a healthy dollop of dish-washing detergent. Measure out your kapton so it's ready to go, put the bed on a towel to sop up the excess liquid, and then liberally coat the bed with the soapy water. I mean, a total lot of liquid on the bed.
> 
> When you place the kapton tape on the bed, it will not stick. It will float on the water, letting you align the edges. Once it's square to the edges, hold it down in one spot and use the edge of the credit card to gently squeegee out the water from under the tape. You'll need to do this multiple times before it starts to stick to the bed, but when it starts to stick on the end you're squeegeeing, squeegee the end you've been holding.  Any air bubbles will be driven out along with the soapy water, so you wind up with a nice flat bed with no bubbles. if it shifts the first few times you squeegee, you can just reposition it, since it's still floating on some water.
> ...


I stopped doing that a few months ago, instead now I just use a smaller piece of kapton (because why cover the entire bed if you are not using it all?) 

Now, I cut about half a plate of kapton off the roll, put it right in the middle, and if there is bubbles keep lifting and re-applying using a credit card to smooth the bubbles. The smaller the piece of kapton, the easier it is to work with.

----------


## jdg56

> I stopped doing that a few months ago, instead now I just use a smaller piece of kapton (because why cover the entire bed if you are not using it all?) 
> 
> Now, I cut about half a plate of kapton off the roll, put it right in the middle, and if there is bubbles keep lifting and re-applying using a credit card to smooth the bubbles. The smaller the piece of kapton, the easier it is to work with.


I'll have to try that next time. I tend to print stuff all over the plate, moving from one corner to the other, to maximize the printing I can do before I have to wash it off and re-apply the glue stick. However, you are right, it might be easier to just do partial coverage.

Cheers,

John

----------


## Geoff

> I'll have to try that next time. I tend to print stuff all over the plate, moving from one corner to the other, to maximize the printing I can do before I have to wash it off and re-apply the glue stick. However, you are right, it might be easier to just do partial coverage.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John


It was so painful for me replacing that whole sheet, I did it once a month or couple of months for 2 years..argh... and my wife lol, I used to get her to hold the roll tight while I laid it on the bed...(err that didn't come out right... :Embarrassment: )

anyway.... when I got into PLA more and wood etc I started using Blue tape...

Then I got lazy  :Stick Out Tongue:   and when I put kapton back on... when i switched to blue tape once more, _I left the kapton on,_ and put the blue tape over the kapton...  Now this did 2 interesting things.. It gave me an extra insulation layer and the parts curl up even less more as they have a buffer between the heatbed now, the blue tape holds heat in too. And the second, was my prints are now 0.0.. whatever milimeters closer to the plate because of the double layer... so printing raftless WITH supports is now a breeze. I used to need a raft for the supports because they wouldnt stick to the bed well, but now thats not a problem.

I'll be honest, I use that combination now for ABS and PLA now for everything, if it's ABS I use the kids glue stick on the blue tape, and PLA just plain on the bed, no additional crap. I don't know if the 3M 3" Blue tape im using is anything special it's the only one I've really tried so far.

----------


## jdg56

My local Lowe's has a few 'improved' types of 3M blue tape which are useless in the printer. I'm stocking up on the 'regular' tape so when they eventually [tinfoil_hat] cave in to the anti-3d-printing corporate manufacturist cartel  and [/tinfoil_hat] stop making the 'good' stuff, I'll be able to carry on whilst we wait for quantum bed adhesion.  :Smile: 

They don't seem to carry the 3" width, which is how I started experimenting with the 'new' versions.

My current addition to the gnome army (my office at work is a total playland of Things) is separating from the kapton tape in the freezer, but I'll definitely give the kapton+3M tape a try tomorrow.. This kapton is a bit scuffed. Will that affect using it along side blue tape, or can I experiment without having to replace it?

Cheers,

John

----------


## curious aardvark

One thing I will say with tape of any kind. 
Buy narrower rolls and use more strips. 

I've got  a20cm wide roll of kapton and it's just totally unmanageable. 
The best use I've had out of it so far is to cut thin bits to attach my level aluminium plate to the original unlevel flashforge plate. 

I did try using it to cover a glass plate and it's just too bloody wide. 
Thought I was being clever buying a width that would do the plate in one go. Nope, definitely not clever :-)

----------


## Stigern

> One thing I will say with tape of any kind. 
> Buy narrower rolls and use more strips. 
> 
> I've got  a20cm wide roll of kapton and it's just totally unmanageable. 
> The best use I've had out of it so far is to cut thin bits to attach my level aluminium plate to the original unlevel flashforge plate. 
> 
> I did try using it to cover a glass plate and it's just too bloody wide. 
> Thought I was being clever buying a width that would do the plate in one go. Nope, definitely not clever :-)


Damn, just bought a 23cm wide one XD

----------


## curious aardvark

the problem is that the kapton tape is super sticky and seems to stick to itself in preference to anything else. 
So just pulling a strip off a roll that wide, stretches it and deforms it. Then while you're trying to get it to stick to something else - it's doing it's best to stick to itself, crease, tear and fold. 

I'm contemplating knocking up some kind of jig so i can cut the roll evenly into thinner strips. 

***

Back to the bracelet - printed the normal size one (previous were short ones) with my adjusted catch. Now I don't know if this was related to the printer or simplify3d. But there are a couple of dodgy areas where filaments blobbed and some links that are fused. This is the first bracelet I've printed with simplify3d and the first issues of any kind I've had with any pla print. 

That said the rest of the bracelet is fine and the catch looks  better and is just as easy to use.  And it did slice in a couple of minutes rather than a number of hours. 
One thing with s3d - I can look at the gcode it generate alongside the x3g file to see if I didn't set the layer height to 0.27.

_Short while later..._




> primaryExtruder,1
> ;   layerHeight,0.2
> ;   topSolidLayers,3
> ;   bottomSolidLayers,3
> ;   perimeterOutlines,2


Yeah my fault. Should have been 2 layers all round and 0.27 layer height. 
So considering that - it probably shouldn't have printed as well as it did :-)

----------


## Serena

Update on my progress- Finally got to print the first thing that I designed myself- yay! Here it is. It's for my daughter... I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. I just need to play with the quality and see if I can get a little faster print without sacrificing too much smoothness. This took about 8 hours to print on 0.1 layer height. 

Photo Oct 09, 10 31 24 AM.jpg



All though I'm starting to feel a little limited by the size of the print bed. Have any of you done many prints where you attached pieces together to make a larger item? How did they turn out? What did you use to attach them? I am going to try experimenting with some various glues I guess... but it seems like most things roll off the abs without sticking really good.

----------


## Teledog

..as to the Kapton tape..the huge wide rolls seem thinner & more prone to damage than the ~1/2" rolls for some reason. :Frown: 
Found an interesting method to dealing with the huge rolls on another forum._ (need 3 pieces of ~1/2"dowel, ~12" long)_
If one can _eventually_ manage to unroll an inch or 3 off the roll ..intact (I stick it to the kitchen counter),
One sticks a dowel (~1/2 " or whatever diameter, aluminum or wood or..) - a few inches longer than the roll -  under the leading edge and roll it up a bit.
The rolled dowel should be pretty much parallel with the main roll,..now carefully draw out the length you need for the bed and a few more inches, then put another dowel underneath the tape - about 1-2" out from roll of Kapton, making sure it's "stuck well".
Add a third dowel, stuck right next to the roll,..to pull the kapton off next time you need it (trust me, it works.. and saves you a lot of frustration)
Cut the kapton between the two dowels that are next to the roll (probably need a second person to help!) 
Now you should have two dowels/sticks with a sheet of kapton in between. (good for capturing bugs or..) :Stick Out Tongue: 
"I" heat the bed to ~50/60C- with the bed as low as it will go & carefully lay the Kapton on from one side to the other.
Lay it on & "squeegee" it with a piece of soft plastic or whatever..there may be bubbles, but they seem to work their way out after a few prints.
Only tried the water thing once,..it sucked..it's OK for vinyl applications/windows, but not a heated bed IMHO

As to sticking on Kapton, I always use the ABS glue (with MEK) and wipe it with MEK between prints.
Let the bed cool, drizzle on IPA, wait 30 seconds & bop the prints off with a maple stick & rubber hammer.

My 2 cents anyway..  :Confused:

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## Serena

> the problem is that the kapton tape is super sticky and seems to stick to itself in preference to anything else. 
> So just pulling a strip off a roll that wide, stretches it and deforms it. Then while you're trying to get it to stick to something else - it's doing it's best to stick to itself, crease, tear and fold. 
> 
> I'm contemplating knocking up some kind of jig so i can cut the roll evenly into thinner strips. 
> 
> ***
> 
> Back to the bracelet - printed the normal size one (previous were short ones) with my adjusted catch. Now I don't know if this was related to the printer or simplify3d. But there are a couple of dodgy areas where filaments blobbed and some links that are fused. This is the first bracelet I've printed with simplify3d and the first issues of any kind I've had with any pla print. 
> 
> ...


Yeah thats great it turned out, considering.... I may try that bigger one too. I could get the small one on, but it pinched pretty bad.  :EEK!:  Is PLA like ABS in that the manufacturer makes a difference in the quality? is there one you recommend? I'd like to get some to try.  :Smile:

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## Geoff

> Yeah thats great it turned out, considering.... I may try that bigger one too. I could get the small one on, but it pinched pretty bad.  Is PLA like ABS in that the manufacturer makes a difference in the quality? is there one you recommend? I'd like to get some to try.


PLA and ABS completely different to work with Serena,  but I have to say I really do like the look of printed PLA, it's shiny and looks sleek. It really is worth just getting a roll and trying it, get a nice bright colour.

ABS gives you more headaches with things lifting off the heatbed whereas PLA gives you headaches with the printing temperature.. too hot and the top layer raises up alot as it prints and get's messy, but over all I have to say for someone who was a total ABS fanatic, I really am finding myself loving PLA more. It is also very malleable, if you put PLA in hot water, it can be maniuplated into other shapes. 

The way I look at it now, if it is a functional part, like a Gear, or print head or something that needs to be durable, I print in ABS, if it is an arty thing, busts, sculptures, toys etc, or very very large prints, I go with PLA just because it's easier to work with.

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## curious aardvark

as far as quality goes - that chloe print would look just as good printed at 0.3 layer and 10 % infill. 
Which would be MUCH faster :-) 

Also if you rounded off the top - rather than keep it flat you could print it hollow. Much much quicker and way less plastic and it would look better and feel nicer.
I'm impressed you got that much abs to print without warping. 

the slightly longer bracelet is better. And with the reduced size catch looks sleeker as well. I'll upload the stl when i get the chance. 

But if you wnat to render the openscad file yourself here's the .scad file: chainmail_bracelet_v4-reducedclasp.scad

Just load into openscad. Press the f6 key
wait about an hour till the picture of the bracelet shows up. Then click 'file' and export to .stl
Print :-)
My only real issue with openscad is the time it takes to render the more complicated files.

@geoff - for gears pla is better because it's harder and less prone to wear. Not so good if they get real hot - but apprently for wearing it's a lot better. 

So are you selling just the plastic parts or complete kossel kits ? 
I thinm we're nearly at the point where I want to try building one from scratch. Just ordering the right bits thats the issue as I have no idea which bits works best and are cheapest :-)

MY mate can do any soldering and understands electrickery, And I can make the bits and scrounge the aluminium (hopefully) 
We've got to redesign the control and arm rest setup for a friend of mine's electric wheelchair first - but after that I reckon we could try for a delta :-)

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## Stigern

Have some trouble writing ABS with my Pro. It won't stick properly, I've tried kapton & blue tape.

Could it be that my heatbed isn't hot enough?

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## Serena

> PLA and ABS completely different to work with Serena,  but I have to say I really do like the look of printed PLA, it's shiny and looks sleek. It really is worth just getting a roll and trying it, get a nice bright colour.
> 
> ABS gives you more headaches with things lifting off the heatbed whereas PLA gives you headaches with the printing temperature.. too hot and the top layer raises up alot as it prints and get's messy, but over all I have to say for someone who was a total ABS fanatic, I really am finding myself loving PLA more. It is also very malleable, if you put PLA in hot water, it can be maniuplated into other shapes. 
> 
> The way I look at it now, if it is a functional part, like a Gear, or print head or something that needs to be durable, I print in ABS, if it is an arty thing, busts, sculptures, toys etc, or very very large prints, I go with PLA just because it's easier to work with.


Yeah that's what I'm noticing is the brightness of the colors on the PLA looks really good. And I will be printing mostly decorative things. Except the cookie cutters which need to be dishwasher safe. Definitely going to get some. I'm off to amazon.com! :-)


[QUOTE=curious aardvark;29800]as far as quality goes - that chloe print would look just as good printed at 0.3 layer and 10 % infill. 
Which would be MUCH faster :-) 

Also if you rounded off the top - rather than keep it flat you could print it hollow. Much much quicker and way less plastic and it would look better and feel nicer.
I'm impressed you got that much abs to print without warping. 
/QUOTE]

The rounded top is a great idea! Now to figure out how to get blender to listen to me....... ;-)

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## Serena

Stigern- I will let the experts answer more since I am totally new, but I can say that so far I've had success printing abs with my bed between 225-230. I had trouble sticking early on though, due to my bed not being level. I think it was too far from the nozzle and it wouldn't stick. Many gave me great advice earlier in this thread if you want to scroll back.  :Smile:

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## Stigern

> Stigern- I will let the experts answer more since I am totally new, but I can say that so far I've had success printing abs with my bed between 225-230. I had trouble sticking early on though, due to my bed not being level. I think it was too far from the nozzle and it wouldn't stick. Many gave me great advice earlier in this thread if you want to scroll back.


225,230 C on the bed?

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## Geoff

> @geoff - for gears pla is better because it's harder and less prone to wear. Not so good if they get real hot - but apprently for wearing it's a lot better. 
> 
> So are you selling just the plastic parts or complete kossel kits ? 
> I thinm we're nearly at the point where I want to try building one from scratch. Just ordering the right bits thats the issue as I have no idea which bits works best and are cheapest :-)


PLA is stiffer but nowhere near as strong as ABS for a gear I find, sorry you can't convert me, and i've been doing this a fair bit longer than you mate  :Stick Out Tongue:  PLA gears are rigid yes, seem great .. but have zero stress tolerance, warp over time (no matter how well you printed it to start with) and have more of a tendency to snap off small segments from stress fractures, like gear teeth.

I sell both complete kits and parts, in ABS or PLA it depends on what they want, end effector, zprobe holder and gears always in ABS.  I prefer to have peace of mind knowing i've sold someone an end effector that wont melt to buggery during a print.

@ Stigern..

Get a kids Glue stick, use some of that on the blue tape if you are having stick issues, but at 110c hotbed, it should not be having issues sticking really.

Is it lifting straight away or after a while?

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## Serena

Oops sorry- that's the extruder temp. Bed is between 106-110c.

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## Stigern

> PLA is stiffer but nowhere near as strong as ABS for a gear I find, sorry you can't convert me, and i've been doing this a fair bit longer than you mate  PLA gears are rigid yes, seem great .. but have zero stress tolerance, warp over time (no matter how well you printed it to start with) and have more of a tendency to snap off small segments from stress fractures, like gear teeth.
> 
> I sell both complete kits and parts, in ABS or PLA it depends on what they want, end effector, zprobe holder and gears always in ABS.  I prefer to have peace of mind knowing i've sold someone an end effector that wont melt to buggery during a print.
> 
> @ Stigern..
> 
> Get a kids Glue stick, use some of that on the blue tape if you are having stick issues, but at 110c hotbed, it should not be having issues sticking really.
> 
> Is it lifting straight away or after a while?


Straight away, I'm gonna level my build plate again, and try some more. Maybe enclose my printer better. Haven't attached the top acrylic cover yet.

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## Geoff

> Straight away, I'm gonna level my build plate again, and try some more. Maybe enclose my printer better. Haven't attached the top acrylic cover yet.


Ok if it is lifting straight away, we have a bed level issue, not an ABS issue.  If you have the bed at 110c, the ABS should no matter what, be sticking well for at least the first 10-20 layers or so

If you have Blue tape, here is a good trick to get you going..

Add another layer of blue tape on top of whatever you have there, so you have 2 layers... heat the bed to 112c when you print, you will see a big difference. The extra tape saves you re-levelling the bed also, its a band aid fix but tells you if you are on the right track or not.

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## curious aardvark

> PLA is stiffer but nowhere near as strong as ABS for a gear I find,  sorry you can't convert me, and i've been doing this a fair bit longer  than you mate   PLA gears are rigid yes, seem great .. but have zero stress tolerance,  warp over time (no matter how well you printed it to start with) and  have more of a tendency to snap off small segments from stress  fractures, like gear teeth.


lol true. I was just going by soemone who was running gears with a drill. reckoned the pla stood up better. 
I will bow to your greater experience :-) 

Had a look at the creator pro specs. 



> *Key features and improvements:*
>  - Sturdy metal frame is substantially more stable than the Creator's original wood frame.
>  - Warp-resistant 6.3mm aluminum build platform remains perfectly level under the stress of high heat.
>  - New heat-resistant metal platform supports replace plastic supports.
>  - New heavy-duty (10mm) z-axis guide rod ensures steady and precise movement. 
>  - New acrylic cover encloses the chamber to insulate and protect ABS prints.
>  - New LED light illuminates the build chamber..


I can see why you're getting better abs results than I do :-)
 I haven't got any of that stuff lol

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## Geoff

> - Sturdy metal frame is substantially more stable than the Creator's original wood frame.
> - Warp-resistant 6.3mm aluminum build platform remains perfectly level under the stress of high heat.
> - New heat-resistant metal platform supports replace plastic supports.
> - New heavy-duty (10mm) z-axis guide rod ensures steady and precise movement. 
> - New acrylic cover encloses the chamber to insulate and protect ABS prints.
> - New LED light illuminates the build chamber..


Now you would think that with all that, it would have improved things. Now, I don't know why but you would think that if I can do it without hassle on my caveman-flashforge-3d-wooden-casket of a machine, you would think with all the improvements, that printing ABS would be easier for you, but it's not. 

I will spend some considerable time this weekend doing ABS vs PLA tests

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## Stigern

Did another try with ABS, got it working!

But, I had a hard time removing the raft. Still some left on my model. Tried another print increasing raft offset, separation and lowering infill to 30%. Got some sag on my lines. But easier to remove the raft  :Smile:

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## Geoff

> Did another try with ABS, got it working!
> 
> But, I had a hard time removing the raft. Still some left on my model. Tried another print increasing raft offset, separation and lowering infill to 30%. Got some sag on my lines. But easier to remove the raft


Yeah, I have some ABS that just doesn't come off well, but that also was ReplicatorG. Makerware does a much better rafting job, it peels off like a single sheet.

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## Serena

> Now you would think that with all that, it would have improved things. Now, I don't know why but you would think that if I can do it without hassle on my caveman-flashforge-3d-wooden-casket of a machine, you would think with all the improvements, that printing ABS would be easier for you, but it's not. 
> 
> I will spend some considerable time this weekend doing ABS vs PLA tests


Nice! That will be really interesting to see. 




> Did another try with ABS, got it working!


Yay!

Today's print took just under 12 hours- needed lots of supports which removed pretty cleanly. I do feel like I see imperfections more in this dark blue color. Also- it turned out really shiny. Not sure why- is it just the design? Anyway, I'm very happy with the level of detail you can get from the flashforge. 

Photo Oct 09, 9 46 34 PM.jpg

Photo Oct 10, 8 34 17 AM.jpg

Photo Oct 10, 8 35 40 AM.jpg

Photo Oct 10, 8 35 08 AM.jpg

Anyone know how I rotate pics? Also, on that last one- see the roughness from the supports I removed? I tried sanding it and I feel like it looked worse. Maybe I need finer sandpaper... do you guys ever sand your pieces?

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## Dargonfly

> Nice! That will be really interesting to see. 
> 
> 
> Yay!
> 
> Today's print took just under 12 hours- needed lots of supports which removed pretty cleanly. I do feel like I see imperfections more in this dark blue color. Also- it turned out really shiny. Not sure why- is it just the design? Anyway, I'm very happy with the level of detail you can get from the flashforge. 
> 
> 
> Anyone know how I rotate pics? Also, on that last one- see the roughness from the supports I removed? I tried sanding it and I feel like it looked worse. Maybe I need finer sandpaper... do you guys ever sand your pieces?


Looks good! What settings did you use for it?

You always see imperfections better on darker and/or glossier colors. That's why I never trust printers (or painters) that only show white and/or matte products..
I prefer printing in glossy dark blue PLA. Gives me a very good visual of what settings I need to tweak to get better results.

I have filed a print sometimes, never used sandpaper (sandpapering small things with my large fingers is not doable.) But from what I've heard; sanding PLA is a bit more difficult then lots of other material. Just start with 200-300 grit and gradually move up to 1000.
But if possible; try making support that easily break of (or don't use any at all) to save a lot of time.

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## Geoff

> Nice! That will be really interesting to see. 
> 
> 
> Yay!
> 
> Today's print took just under 12 hours- needed lots of supports which removed pretty cleanly. I do feel like I see imperfections more in this dark blue color. Also- it turned out really shiny. Not sure why- is it just the design? Anyway, I'm very happy with the level of detail you can get from the flashforge. 
> 
> Photo Oct 09, 9 46 34 PM.jpg
> 
> ...


Thanks for printing my Model  :Smile: 

If you want to clean up sanding marks, use a cigarette lighter VERY gently on it, they will dissapear like magic. Easy way to rotate pictures is windows office picture manager, if you have Office.

I sand alot of prints, mainly support removal spots to clean them up, I use a small butane torch set to low and lightly flick over the white marks from sanding and supports.

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## Serena

> Looks good! What settings did you use for it?
> 
> You always see imperfections better on darker and/or glossier colors. That's why I never trust printers (or painters) that only show white and/or matte products..
> I prefer printing in glossy dark blue PLA. Gives me a very good visual of what settings I need to tweak to get better results.
> 
> I have filed a print sometimes, never used sandpaper (sandpapering small things with my large fingers is not doable.) But from what I've heard; sanding PLA is a bit more difficult then lots of other material. Just start with 200-300 grit and gradually move up to 1000.
> But if possible; try making support that easily break of (or don't use any at all) to save a lot of time.


Its ABS- layer height was .0.1700mm. Trying to find that sweet spot between high and medium quality.  :Smile:  Everything was pretty much default S3D settings except I removed the brim and slowed down the first layer speed. I've been having problems with the brim not laying down good and creating little strings that then catch on the extruders and mess up the first layer. I haven't seen a way to slow down the speed of the brim because I think that would solve the problem. So I just took it out and slowed the first layer. That seems to be working ok. The supports were auto generated by s3d and came off easily. No problems at all. They just leave that tiny bit of roughness that really shows up in the darker color. I do love the way the dark colors look though. I can see why you use them.  




> Thanks for printing my Model 
> 
> If you want to clean up sanding marks, use a cigarette lighter VERY gently on it, they will dissapear like magic. Easy way to rotate pictures is windows office picture manager, if you have Office.
> 
> I sand alot of prints, mainly support removal spots to clean them up, I use a small butane torch set to low and lightly flick over the white marks from sanding and supports.


I didn't realize that was yours!!! I downloaded quite a few things to try out a while back. I think the Groot head I printed was yours too. Those two things are my most favorite things I've printed to date. Thank you for sharing them. They are so well done. Now that I've tried several different Thingiverse designs, I can really tell the difference in quality of the various choices. You are really good at sculpting great detail that prints beautifully. Nice job man. :-) My husband is a HUGE superman fan, so I printed that one for him.  :Smile:  

I will definitely try your tip about the heat to smooth the roughness. That sounds like a great idea.

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## curious aardvark

Apart from superman's chin - what else needed supports ? 
Looking at the model it ought to print supportless without too much trouble.

(looks through geoffs thingiverse uploads) 
WOW ! 
some seriously cool stuff there. 

Tell you what you could do - how about a gonzo from the muppets ? 
Well, it can't hurt to ask :-)

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## Serena

> Apart from superman's chin - what else needed supports ? 
> Looking at the model it ought to print supportless without too much trouble.
> (looks through geoffs thingiverse uploads) 
> WOW ! 
> some seriously cool stuff there. 
> Tell you what you could do - how about a gonzo from the muppets ? 
> Well, it can't hurt to ask :-)


The main area that needed supports was the arms. The cape had a little bit but probably would have done fine without them. 

Some updated pics of recent prints:
Attachment 3070

First off- (really bad cell cell phone pic) but this geared heart printed great. It's so cool! Have you seen this model? It's a remixed one and it works like a charm. Super fun to play with! I was able to print all the parts in only two batches which wasn't bad at all. First batch was around 3hrs and second was maybe 4 or so. I did have to redo the pins with a raft because they kept slipping. Highly recommend trying this one!

Next I tried the t-rex skull that is on thingiverse. Great model- I was worried about the skull but turns out I've had more trouble with the rod and the platform. So this is a new one for me:


Photo Oct 15, 8 56 54 AM.jpg

It's like a strip just peeled off. I tried sanding it smooth but more kept lifting. Like a thread I wish I hadnt pulled. Anyone tell me what went wrong?

Also, the rod has been a real pain. Tried printing it and it lifted off the bed so I rafted it but this happened:

Photo Oct 15, 9 46 46 AM.jpg

This should be the easy piece to print but I can't seem to get it. Any advice?

The skull turned out great- 
Photo Oct 15, 8 57 51 AM.jpg

a little cracking but I think I had the temp too low:

Photo Oct 15, 8 58 34 AM.jpg

This is such a great looking model though- and not too bad long of a print either. No supports at all which is awesome. Had to floss his teeth a bit with some sandpaper, but overall very smooth. I want to try it again with some modifications to my processes- once I figure out that stupid rod.

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## curious aardvark

you need to print a little hotter to avoid the delamination. 
Or use pla :-)

I've found it difficult to avoid the cracks in any solid block of abs. 
I refer you to my previous answer ;-)

----------

