# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > RepRap Format Printer Forum > MakerFarm Forum >  Looking at Pegasus 12

## augerpro

Looking to get my first 3D printer. We're pretty capable with anything tech or mechanical so a kit seems doable. Looking for a larger print area with good resolution/quality, and the Pegasus 12 seems like a good candidate in the <$1000 area?

If so, what options should I consider? I'm leaning toward the Titan extruder with e3d-v6 hot end. Deluxe add-on is unavailable at the moment. Also what model plastics have people had the most success with for high resolution prints with good consistency (I'm really hoping to run at the 50 micron the Pegasus claims to be capable of)?

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## augerpro

Couple questions regarding print material. If I upgrade to the Titan with e3d-v6 hotend, can it print nylon? How hot can the tip get, and what metal is made from? What are the pro and cons of 1.75mm vs 3mm considering the priorities of resolution and consistency?

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## uncle_bob

Hi

Simple answers:

Get the 1.75 mm filament version. The 3mm stuff does not feed as well. There is no compelling reason to go with 3 mm unless you are doing 1 mm nozzle stuff (very much *not* high resolution).  I have a pile of 3mm filament and don't quite know what I'll do with it. 

Go for the standard direct drive extruder. Of the bunch MakerFarm offers at 1.75 mm, it will drive the filament the fastest without jamming. It will print anything the other extruders will print. 

Go for the full blown E3D, not the lite. It's not much more money and you *will* need the higher temps, even for ABS.

The three main filaments you *probably* will user are PLA, ABS, and PETG. What you use past that depends a lot on what you are trying to do. You seem to be interested in Nylon. If so, you want to look at the cost of a filament drying setup (vacuum dryer). The stuff is *very* hygroscopic. The printer has zero impact on this, it's just the nature of the filament.  The same issue applies to a couple of other exotic materials. 

If you want to look at something else, the Prusa I3 Mk2 kit is a bit more money, but not a lot. It has a much smaller print volume. It also has some interesting custom firmware and software. That can be a plus or a minus depending on how handy you are. 

Bob

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## augerpro

So the standard Pegasus extruder is that good? Or do you have specific concerns with the Titan? Also, dual extruder, handy or not worth the trouble?

Will definitely be going with the full e3d-v6 hotend. And 1.75mm.

Yeah I may not go with the nylon. PETG looks pretty good, and we'll also probably use some of the PLA/PHA hybrids. Woodfill and possibly the ceramic also, although I'm not sure if the e3d-v6 will get that hot. If not, we just won't use it.

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## uncle_bob

Hi

Yes, the standard extruder is that good (or the Titan is that bad) depending on how you look at it. Neither one has a part cooling fan stock. That's a bigger issue than any difference between the extruders. It's not a hard thing to fix.

Forget about the dual extruder. It's not worth the hassle. The second nozzle drags all over the print. 

Given that you don't have a printer yet, I would plan on keeping things simple at first. Things like ceramic literally eat the nozzle on a hot end. They also are a bit of a pain to print. The fill does not impact the temperature much. It's the plastic that the fill is combined with that mostly determines the temperature. PLA will print colder than ABS. PETG and ABS both print at similar temperatures. The heated bed is a bigger issue for ABS and PETG than the hot end. There a lot of printers that have the hot end, but not a good enough heated bed ....

The E3D-V6 with a high temp sensor will get hotter than any filament on the market today requires. The hot end with a thermistor will get hot enough for any filament a sensible person would wish to print. It also will get hot enough for a bunch of filaments that simply turn into a mess when you try to print them.

Bob

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## augerpro

Thanks for the info Bob!

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## BLKKROW

I have a Pegasus (Direct Drive) and an IV3 (Wades Extruder), I prefer the Wades Extruder. For Christmas I received an E3D Titan to replace the direct drive on the Pegasus. If I get it installed in an orderly fashion I will let you know how I feel about it.

But looking at it from an engineering standpoint, it is superior. I can go into details why, but essentially it has more torque and is about the same weight as a direct drive if I use a pancake motor.

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## uncle_bob

Hi

If you look at the basic engineering of the Titan with it's wimpy motor compared to the basic engineering of the higher torque motor on the "simple" direct drive extruder, the direct drive wins. It also wins when you have a filament race and see which one will actually push filament onto a print faster. 

Note, this *is* sort of a dumb comparison. Running at a speed that you exhaust the extruder with normal filaments means running a *very* fast speed on the printer. That will result in sub par prints. If that does not bother you, fine. If you are running something really weird, there are enough variables there to write a book on....

Bob

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## BLKKROW

> Hi
> 
> If you look at the basic engineering of the Titan with it's wimpy motor compared to the basic engineering of the higher torque motor on the "simple" direct drive extruder, the direct drive wins. It also wins when you have a filament race and see which one will actually push filament onto a print faster. 
> 
> Note, this *is* sort of a dumb comparison. Running at a speed that you exhaust the extruder with normal filaments means running a *very* fast speed on the printer. That will result in sub par prints. If that does not bother you, fine. If you are running something really weird, there are enough variables there to write a book on....
> 
> Bob


The key when using the Titan is selecting a pancake motor that has sufficient Torque. Looking at the specifications of the default Nema 17's they have about 54 Newton Centimeters, of holding torque. With the 3:1 gearing ratio of the Titan you should be able to select a stepper with 1/3 of the Holding Torque of the original motor. However, I am selecting something with 1/2 of the holding torque in order to ensure I have more torque than the direct drive.

Doing this, means I will be using a motor with a length of 34mm compared to 48mm.

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## augerpro

So a different motor comes with the Titan? It cannot use the stock Nema 17? (is too much torque a problem?) Also weight was mentioned, is this an issue? Is the Titan w/ lower weight motor desirable just because it is lower weight?

BTW thanks both of you for giving me the sort of feedback I need!

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## BLKKROW

> So a different motor comes with the Titan? It cannot use the stock Nema 17? (is too much torque a problem?) Also weight was mentioned, is this an issue? Is the Titan w/ lower weight motor desirable just because it is lower weight?
> 
> BTW thanks both of you for giving me the sort of feedback I need!


You can certainly use the stock motor to run the Titan, it will just provide a lot of Torque. This isn't an issue at all and will certainly push any filament you feed it. One of the advantages of using a geared extruder is you can use a motor with less weight. 

This means your carriage theoretically, can run at a greater speed.

Edit: I think Colin only has one type of motor, so if you purchase it with the Titan you will get the typical motor. Also, take a look at this review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiAQ9slUZ58&t=3s

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## uncle_bob

Hi

No, you can not just look at a single torque number on a stepper motor. That's sloppy engineering. You need to look at the torque vs step rate curve for the motor. That's the only way to figure out what is going on. The advertised (and often bogus) torque numbers you see on steppers are at the max torque point. Surprise, that is almost always at zero steps per second (DC). The torque falls off as you speed the motor up. Since a geared motor is stepping faster, it *is* a significant issue. 

You *can* use a bigger motor with the Titan, but the one that normally comes with it is not very powerful. 

*IS* torque why the Titan stalls out earlier? The other stuff involved gets into bearing friction, gear friction, hobbed bolt teeth and force on the filament. Without digging to each and every item, there is no way to tell. What is true is that the Titan does not feed any better than the stock extruder.

Bob

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## pochrist

I'm still really new, but I did just get the PEGASUS 12 Basic with the Titan Extruder and an E3d-V6 hot end, I finished assembling it early this month. Been printing for a few weeks, once I got everything square and calibrated it works great. I can't comment on which extruder is better or worse, for me at the beginning of my journey I'm just happy to be productive with it, once I get more experience I'll decide if I need to change the extruder. I'm hoping to move up to more flexible filaments so can support my Otter Box Phone case with a custom "rubberized" exterior (actually I think its more in the silicone family). Right now I'm just drawing up parts to repair damaged items or supplementing my bathroom "crap" holders.

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## uncle_bob

The bottom line is still that they all work ok for normal prints. You have to get a bit crazy to stress any of them.

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## augerpro

So, starting accessories...I have a wide variety of tools, but is there anything specific to 3D printing I should get?

Going to use PETG and PLA/PHA hybrids to start, what bed release?

Glass bed or no?

Polycarbonate to enclose the machine, or see if I need it first?

Any other items?

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## uncle_bob

If you have a Pegasus, just use the glass bed. PETG prints fine on hairspray, same as PLA or ABS. PLA/PHA should also print the same. Polycarbonate is a total PIA. You do need something weird to print it on. What depends a lot on who you ask and what their process is. I avoid the stuff.

I'd get the "deluxe upgrade" before I enclosed the printer. I mounted an LED light on mine and redesigned the extruder from scratch to have a cooling fan and an integral BL Touch mount.

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## augerpro

The polycarbonate was referring to the sheets to enclose the printer, probably from Home Depot since the deluxe upgrade kit is currently unavailable.

Any particular hairspray? 

Your LED is close to the tip? Interesting.

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## pochrist

I just went to Lowes and had them cut some Glass for the Bed and use only the heated glass bed for printing. I've printed Pla and Petg staight on the glass, I just scrap it clean and wipe it done with denatured alcohol. I had some problems with lifting recently but it turns out my nozzle was to high and my bed bed wasn't level enough. Now that I got past this point all my problems are gone. As for the enclosure I have an office built into half my garage (its insulated but rely s on heat from the rest of my house via a wood burning stove and a small portable heater. I would hold off on the enclosure till you get it up and running and navigate the wire management.

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## uncle_bob

> The polycarbonate was referring to the sheets to enclose the printer, probably from Home Depot since the deluxe upgrade kit is currently unavailable.
> 
> Any particular hairspray? 
> 
> Your LED is close to the tip? Interesting.


Hi

Forget about Lowes for an enclosure. There are places on the internet that will do custom cutting for you with much better material. If you go the Lowes route, make the enclosure out of plywood.

The LED light I used is a fairly normal 12V "outdoor light". It's a 10W unit from Amazon. Nothing special about it.

Bob

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## augerpro

I thought the Deluxe upgrade kit used polycarbonate, but it is actually acrylic. And the kit is back in stock just moments ago!

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## uncle_bob

The advantage of the upgrade kit is that you *know* it works. All the silly bugs have been worked out of it. The parts fit and do everything they need to do. The only thing that may be suspect it the BLTouch and Marlin. From what I have seen with the RC8+ builds (and some mods) the BL Touch works pretty well. Not as well as the inductive probe on my Mk2, but it even it could use a little help from time to time.

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## BLKKROW

I have been working with the Titan the last 2 days. I have it installed with a pancake Nema 17 motor and I have run into zero issues. The thing just keeps printing and I love the ease of use compared to the old direct drive.

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## uncle_bob

I played with the Titan for a bit and found that the direct drive did a better job and was at least as easy to use ...

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## BLKKROW

> I played with the Titan for a bit and found that the direct drive did a better job and was at least as easy to use ...


I appreciate your opinion, I just left my comments to help the OP.

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## augerpro

Looking to make the order, upgrade kit is out of stock. How important are the ACME upgrade screws?

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## uncle_bob

The ACME screws are certainly an upgrade from the threaded rods. They give you a more accurate Z compared to the thread rods. Given how much the thread rods are bent, the improvement is anywhere between very little and quite a bit. The difference shows up mainly in "banding" in the Z axis. They also speed up the Z axis, that (to me) isn't a big deal. Your prints will come out 2 seconds faster ... The final improvement is in the durability of the Z drive. The thread rods *eventually* will chew through the nuts in the traps. As they chew through, things loosen up a bit. The Acme screws do the same thing on their nuts, they just do it slower ...

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## BLKKROW

> Looking to make the order, upgrade kit is out of stock. How important are the ACME upgrade screws?


I would highly recommend the Acme Threaded rod upgrade. I took a quick photo so please ignore the overall bad quality:

http://imgur.com/SIq6Bsz 

I recently upgraded my threaded rods to 8mm Acme Threaded rods and have a before and after photo. On the left is the 8mm Acme Rod and on the right is the typical 5mm threaded rod. You can see the Z banding and the inconsistent layers on the right. 

I would not pay the price that Colin sells his kit. I purchase 2 of the following items on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1. Then all you need is to print the mounts and your upgrade cost is around $30.00.

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## uncle_bob

The main money in the kit is going to the laser cut acrylic and the probe. I'd rather spend the stepper money on a unit with integrated screws like the one on the i3 MK2 than on any of the lash up / bolt on versions.

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## tsteever

> I would highly recommend the Acme Threaded rod upgrade. I took a quick photo so please ignore the overall bad quality:
> 
> http://imgur.com/SIq6Bsz 
> 
> I recently upgraded my threaded rods to 8mm Acme Threaded rods and have a before and after photo. On the left is the 8mm Acme Rod and on the right is the typical 5mm threaded rod. You can see the Z banding and the inconsistent layers on the right. 
> 
> I would not pay the price that Colin sells his kit. I purchase 2 of the following items on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1. Then all you need is to print the mounts and your upgrade cost is around $30.00.


What did you have to print in order for this to work?

I was looking at these and thought they would be a good fit.

https://www.amazon.com/OpenBuilds-An...MZSX0SBA5AS881

Also, how did you decide on the 8mm ACME rod instead of a M6 or similar? Like this one...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I5V4RVO...I3IK93R4AR8RBF

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## BLKKROW

> What did you have to print in order for this to work?
> 
> I was looking at these and thought they would be a good fit.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/OpenBuilds-An...MZSX0SBA5AS881
> 
> Also, how did you decide on the 8mm ACME rod instead of a M6 or similar? Like this one...
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I5V4RVO...I3IK93R4AR8RBF


I had to print the mount for the 8mm nut here is an example: ttp://imgur.com/a/WjSmz . I also printed a mount for a ball bearing to support the top of Acme Threaded rod.

I chose the 8mm Acme Threaded rod due to its common use in 3D printing. Using this and the A4988 driver I also get a nice 400 steps per mm.

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## uncle_bob

If you buy the nuts and the rod for an Acme setup separately, keep in mind that there is more than one Acme thread out there. Some are far more common than others. Your best bet is to get the nuts and rod from the same guy at the same time.

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## tsteever

Anything special or specific about the collar on the bottom?

Do you have links to the files you printed?

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## uncle_bob

The adapter / coupler that attaches the Acme rod to the stepper ( = collar on the bottom?) is the main problem with this approach. If it does not line up the center of the motor shaft with the center of the threaded rod, you are right back to troubles. That is where getting an integrated stepper / rod really shines (there is no possibility of offset). Depending on where you buy the parts, it may actually be just about as cheap. It gets the couplers out of a very crowded part of the printer andmakes the conversion easier.

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## BLKKROW

> The adapter / coupler that attaches the Acme rod to the stepper ( = collar on the bottom?) is the main problem with this approach. If it does not line up the center of the motor shaft with the center of the threaded rod, you are right back to troubles. That is where getting an integrated stepper / rod really shines (there is no possibility of offset). Depending on where you buy the parts, it may actually be just about as cheap. It gets the couplers out of a very crowded part of the printer andmakes the conversion easier.


I contemplated using integrated stepper motors with the 8mm acme thread. However, I couldn't find a company that sold them in the proper length for a decent price. After searching for a few weeks, I thought about the assembly of the integrated stepper/acme thread and realized the mounting for the motor would need to be modified. If you recall you first install the motor bracket getting it straight and in the proper place. You then have to tilt the motor in just the right way to slide it up and into position.

Using a integrated motor/thread system wouldn't work in this manner. To do this, I have two options, the first would be to CNC out one side of the aluminum bracket, so I can slide the motor and threaded rod in easily. The other option would be to print a bracket that can warp over time. 

So I decided to go the easy route and use the flexible collars. However, I have plans to install the following couplers: https://www.amazon.com/Wangdd22-Coup...o+8mm+coupling

This will make the Z Axis nearly as rigid as the integrated motor/thread, while making it easy to install.

I will put my files up on Thingiverse sometime soon for those who want them. They are only a prototype and I plan on changing things are time progresses.

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## uncle_bob

If you get rid of the coupler and mount the nut right, I believe you can keep the motors in the "normal" location for the non-Acme thread rod driving motors. That's what they did on the i3 MK2. Worst case would be a printed spacer between the motor mount and the "chassis". I'm not sure if you could mount the nuts *below* the lower X arm, but you might be able to. That would make the required length of Acme rod a bit easier to find.

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## BLKKROW

Here are the files I used:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lp88ldb90...2iL5Ph0ya?dl=0

Again, these are Beta designs and may have issues. I am testing them out currently.

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## augerpro

So my buddy bought the Pegasus and we're in the middle of the build! Couple questions:
1) why use the springs on teh heat bed? Does the underside of the heat bed need insulation for the heat bed itself, or just to protect the metal bed and mechanicals? We've been thinking this over and it just seems to make sense to use a spacer at the corners so the heat bed is always in a fixed position, which means the glass clipped to it will always be the same height, so you don't have to recalibrate the bed level every time you mess with anything. If we use say, a 1/2" spacer at the corners, there will be a gap between the heat bed and cork, which is good, but the heat bed will lose heat to the air, hence the question about using some soft insulation underneath that doesn't put any force on the bed, but still insulates the bottom

2) How critical are the dimensions of the rod guides that are attached to the gantry? We're supposed to print these and I'm not sure how great these will be considering we've never printed anything before

3) regarding 2, it would be nice if there weren't any pieces the user had to print, since some buyers will be first timers, we don't have anything to print with yet! So now we are forced to build with stock M5 rods, print the pieces for the ACME rods, and tear it apart to install the ACME rods. Same thing with the bed extenders. Looking at having a commercial outfit print these so we can build the Deluxe mods right away.

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## uncle_bob

Hi

The assumption is that you first build the "normal" version of the printer. Then after it's all running, debugged, and printing like crazy ... you do the upgrade to the Deluxe package. As you have noticed, you need a working and debugged printer to do the Deluxe parts. 

The tolerances on all the parts are fairly tight. I would not build a printer with parts that are not done well. There will be all sorts of issues down the road if you have print issues on the parts. 

The springs are there on the bed to allow you to do fully manual bed leveling. You adjust the screws in each corner of the bed to get it level. With spacer blocks, that process is not going to work. You either do the aided software based manual leveling or you go with a probe. 

As you do the build, keep in mind that mechanical accuracy matters a lot in a printer. The accuracy of a kit like this is pretty much entirely up to how well you align everything as you put it together. Take the time to get it all square and flat ....

Lots of fun.

Bob

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## augerpro

So we've built the machine, did a crude manual bed level and the first print was quite good! It was a 1" cube, but somehow printed only 1/2" in height. I'm searching Slic3r, and the software (can't remember the name, starts with a "p") that is in the manual that had to be used to feed the gcode via USB as Marlin wouldn't see the SD card in the one screen. That all looked good and the only thing I see in Marlin is maybe Zsteps is not right, it's set at 4000 currently - is this right for the M5 guide screws? I'm tempted to change it to 8000 and see if prints the cube the correct height.

Looking around Marlin and the slicer program I'm realizing there are ALOT of settings that I have no idea what they do...

Also the bottom of the cube was not flat, it must have pulled away from the bed. We are using Aquanet on teh bed, set at 70C, and Hatchbox PLA filament. Extruder at 200C. Any advice?

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## uncle_bob

4000 is the correct number for the M5 rods. It hasn't changed in forever and ever on the M5 screws. The Acme rods do use a lower number so you might have loaded the "deluxe kit" firmware. Rather than trying to change individual settings, I'd figure out the basic load error. Colin's firmware is a good starting point and there are lots of custom settings. Much better to get the right firmware version in there. If the firmware is correct, try swapping stepper modules on the Ramps. 

First layer is very much related to how accurately the printer is set up. 80% of the stuff you do in carefully setting up the printer is targeted at getting a good first layer. The "right" hairspray is Garnier Fructis Super Hold 5 from Walmart. If that's not available where you live, there are custom made "3d print" sprays that will do the same thing. PLA normally isn't very hard to get to stick. 

So what to do:

1) Get the right firmware from the Makerfarm site and load it.
2) Reformat your SD card (it can't be a real big one) so it will read properly
3) Get the right hairspray
4) Check all of the dimensions for flat / square by measuring diagonals. They should be within a mm or so of each other.
5) Spend some quality time doing a good bed level 

Once that is all done, you do test prints to work out just how thick the shim you used really was. You offset the head from the bed level zero by playing with the Z offset in your slicer. For a 0.2 mm layer, you will be doing it in 0.05 mm steps or less to get a proper first layer.  Re-check the bed level every couple prints to make sure things are staying tight and nothing is drifting. It is pretty normal to find loose screws for the first week or so of printing. 

Lots of fun !!

Bob

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## Roxy

> The "right" hairspray is Garnier Fructis Super Hold 5 from Walmart. If that's not available where you live, there are custom made "3d print" sprays that will do the same thing. PLA normally isn't very hard to get to stick.


I have always used Rave's 4x Mega hairspray.   Also available at Walmart.   It works very good!   But I'm going to pick up a can of Garnier Fructis Super Hold 5 and see if I can tell a difference.

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## uncle_bob

Hi

Before everybody goes off to Walmart and gets the wrong stuff and hates me forever ....

Green can a out 12" tall. Black top. Label reads:

Garnier
Fructis
Style
Extreme Control
Anti-Humidity
Hairspray 
(yack yack yack) 
Extreme
1 2 3 4 5
...........^
(the number 5 has the arrow and is in black)

It's the stuff I was told to use many years ago. It's always worked fine. It's cheap and I never bothered to play with anything else.

Bob

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## augerpro

So where is the origin? I assume this where home is? If I go into Prepare and manually move an axis, is the 0 position the origin? So if both X and Y show 0 I should be at origin? The reason I ask is the home is in the upper right, are we backwards somewhere and it should be in the lower left, which would be consistent with an actual X/Y plot?

Assuming origin works how I hope, from origin we should be able to check the full travel in X and Y to make sure limit switches are correct and there is no obstruction or binding?

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## uncle_bob

Hi

The origin is set in the firmware. It can be in any corner of the printer or it can be in the center of the heated bed. The simple way to locate the limit switches on the Pegasus was to put them in a way that gives you a back right or upper right origin. There is nothing wrong with doing this and it does not in any way mess up prints. 

In any coordinate system the origin is 0,0,0 by definition (or 0,0 if it's a two axis system). The convention usually is that +Z is the "up" direction and X and Y are the left/right front/back axis. If you want your bed to be +X and +Y that gives the rest of it. On most printers the Y axis is the front to back one and the X axis is the left to right. There is no absolute reason why you could not do it a couple of other ways (possibly with negative numbers). It's a bit simpler to just stick with the conventional approach and move on. 

Bob

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## augerpro

I believe the firmware we loaded was Marlin1_0_2_Pegasus12.ino. Just manually moving the Z axis just now and it shows a position of 220 while it is actually about half way to the top. So it does appear to be going half distance, both steppers obviously since if they were different they would ind quickly. So what do you think?

BTW what does the FR 100% on the Marlin screen mean?

So when we leveled the bed with the 9 point method we used paper as the shim. So you are saying we need to adjust the Z offset in the slicer to do what exactly? Get to exact 0? Or actually move it up to whatever works well for a first layer?

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## uncle_bob

Hi

When you use a shim to level the bed, the shim has a thickness. Let's say your paper is 1 mm thick. After bed level, the Z=0 point will be 1 mm off of the bed of the printer. If I tell a print to start at zero, it will be printing 1 mm up in the air. Since the first layer probably is 0.2 mm, it actually will be printing at 0 point + 0.2 mm = 1.2 mm in the air. You need to take that 1 mm out of the system. You can do that one of two ways. One way is to enter it in the firmware and recompile with that number as an offset. The other approach is to tell the slicer what the offset is and let it do the gcode with the offset figured in. That way the print will start at -1mm + 0.2 mm = -0.8 mm and it will go down on the bed. Of the two approaches, I find the slicer approach easier since you will do a half dozen prints to refine the magic offset number before you get it right.

Have you tried moving the printer driver modules on the ramps board yet? My guess is that you have a problem with one of them. I don't know how Colin labels his firmware for the Deluxe model so no clue if it is easy to spot. In any case 4,000 is the right steps on Z. The other gotcha is a stepper driver that is set to to many micro steps. That's why I suggest swapping the drivers around.

Bob

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## augerpro

So looking at my stepper drivers the one driving the Z steppers is different than the rest, with no black chip. Can't be a coincidence. Wonder if Colin ran out and got some of these but it is a little different. I assume I can change the Zsteps to get it right but I don't know what the exact value would be for this chip.

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## BLKKROW

> I believe the firmware we loaded was Marlin1_0_2_Pegasus12.ino. Just manually moving the Z axis just now and it shows a position of 220 while it is actually about half way to the top. So it does appear to be going half distance, both steppers obviously since if they were different they would ind quickly. So what do you think?
> 
> BTW what does the FR 100% on the Marlin screen mean?
> 
> So when we leveled the bed with the 9 point method we used paper as the shim. So you are saying we need to adjust the Z offset in the slicer to do what exactly? Get to exact 0? Or actually move it up to whatever works well for a first layer?


Real talk, once you level your bed, you should not be using a Z-Offset.  The first layer of the print should be above the bed by a very small amount. For example, I use a feeler gauge with a thickness of 0.1mm. This position will read as 0 on the z-height. It is a little weird as it truly isn't at 0mm.

This small manual offset must exist when printing, do not print with your nozzle at the print bed. Doing, this creates back pressure and your extruder will begin to skip steps. You need that small amount of space so the filament can flow from the nozzle to the bed.

The issue with your Z-Axis height is with the DRV8825 driver you see on the very top. That driver turns the motor at 1/32th of a step compared to the A4982 which runs at 1/16th. So your observation that the Z axis is only moving half the distance is 100% spot on.. To change this you can use a different driver, or change the e-steps in your firmware to 8000.

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## augerpro

So spinning that knob from 4000 to 8000 is a waste oof time. I assume this value is in one of the .h files? So I should just edit it there, recompile with the arduino software, and upload to marlin?

Thanks for the help everyone!

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## BLKKROW

> So spinning that knob from 4000 to 8000 is a waste oof time. I assume this value is in one of the .h files? So I should just edit it there, recompile with the arduino software, and upload to marlin?
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone!


You got it. The other options is to switch to the A4982 driver. I attempted to use the DRV8825 driver and got weird artifacts.

This is what you need to change:

#define DEFAULT_AXIS_STEPS_PER_UNIT   { 80.19, 80.19, 400.00, 394.9}

These are my values, so do not follow them. But change the 3rd option to 8000.

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## augerpro

what file is that in?

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## printbus

> what file is that in?


configuration.h

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## Roxy

> BTW what does the FR 100% on the Marlin screen mean?


You can turn the dial to adjust that number up or down.   It is the 'Feed Rate'.  You can make the printer go faster or slower by turning the dial.

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## uncle_bob

What does Colin say about all this? That's not the "right" driver for the printer. That is the one that ships with the Deluxe upgrade kit.

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## augerpro

We did get the upgrade at the same time, but haven't done any of the upgrades as most require printing something.

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## uncle_bob

Well then that's the explanation (and the missing information). You need to either use the correct stepper driver or mount the acme screw Z axis stuff to get it working with standard firmware.

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## augerpro

But first we have to print the mounts for the ACME rods with funky settings, a Catch-22. We're just going to have the rod mounts printed for us this week and swap to the ACME rods this weekend and be done with it.

The other big issue is the Marlin won't recognize 4 different SD cards.

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## uncle_bob

How did you format the SD cards and how big are they?

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## mook898

1gb to 16gb all formatted in fat32

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## uncle_bob

Freshly formatted on what OS? 

My guess is that the format isn't the issue and you have a broken / unseated cable. The whole format issue is what you need to dig through first though. There *are* well known issues in that regard.

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## mook898

I formatted SD cards with windows 10. I tried switching cables around today and making sure they were seated correctly. Still same as far as info screen says sd card inserted and next screen says no sd card. Augerpro suggested we try and reformat cards one more time. Would you recommend a different OS to format?

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## uncle_bob

Hi

I would format it on a Windows 7 machine if you suspect that Win 10 might be an issue. I format them on OS-X and Linux. In any case you want to be sure that it is a FAT file system. 

Bob

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## BLKKROW

It could also be a faulty Reprap Discount LCD.

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## uncle_bob

Hi

Indeed, the *assumption* is that the parts are the ones that MakerFarm supplies for a Pegasus 12". If we are into some other set of parts then all bets are off ....

Bob

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## augerpro

It's the LCD from Makerfarm. I personally don't think it's the format, or the cables. I think needs to send us a new LCD, unless you guys know of any other reasons?

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## uncle_bob

Hi

If you are not already in touch wth Coin on all this, you should be. He has always been very quick when you ask him a question. He will want to go though a few things before shipping a part. He also *knows* what you ordered and what he shipped you. 

Bob

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## augerpro

Gotta say I'm pretty pi$$ed off at the moment with this printer. Had the ACME rod mounts printed commercially and installed them. First off, the alignment sucks, had the steppers binding up near the bottom really bad. After we messed around with spacing the stepper mounts it is better but not reliable long term solution. Loaded the new firmware and went to level the bed, but it appears the manual option is gone, as it appeared to go through an auto operation. But we don't have the damn sensor mounted because WE CAN'T PRINT and didn't expect to have to send even more parts to the commercial printer!!!!!!!!!! 

I didn't find the ACME rod guides to have zero backlash, hope gravity is one our side.

New firmware has "Z offset  = -1.6" as the first option in Prepare or Control (can't remember which), which I assume is related to what UB was telling me. Is this a correct starting value?

Note to new owners: don't bother with the Upgrade kit. You can buy the ACME rod parts for cheap and you'll be designing your own mounts anyway. Acrylic sides are easy to make. ABL is $10.

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## uncle_bob

Hi

If you go through all the info on the Deluxe package, they are pretty clear about buying the not-deluxe first and getting the deluxe only after the standard printer is up and running. Yes, I found that a bit odd as well. There are a bunch of differences between the standard printer and the deluxe. The whole geometry of the printer changes.

The Z offset in the firmware is the distance between a typical trigger on the BL Touch and the typical hot end mount in the Makerfarm carriage. If you head over to the Prusa MK2, you will find that all of these sensors have a bit of fiddling involved with them. The part I designed up has a similar offset. It is *not* a perfect number. There is to much tolerance in the probes trigger point for that to be true. You go through a print / measure / change offset / new gcode (loop) process to get them set up. 

The other thing to keep in mind, if you are going to use a gcode offset, your firmware will need a negative Z minimum limit in it.

Bob

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## augerpro

> The Z offset in the firmware is the distance between a typical trigger on the BL Touch and the typical hot end mount in the Makerfarm carriage. If you head over to the Prusa MK2, you will find that all of these sensors have a bit of fiddling involved with them. The part I designed up has a similar offset. It is *not* a perfect number. There is to much tolerance in the probes trigger point for that to be true. You go through a print / measure / change offset / new gcode (loop) process to get them set up.


Do you know of a good walkthrough?




> The other thing to keep in mind, if you are going to use a gcode offset, your firmware will need a negative Z minimum limit in it.
> 
> Bob


I don't understand what your saying here?

Thanks for the help!

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## uncle_bob

Hi

I have yet to see a rational set of instructions on setting up the probe on a bed leveling system. It is one of the most discussed and least understood parts of these systems. Compounding the problem is the fact that signs (which way is +) can change depending on what the reference is. 

====

A gcode file is generated from an stl by a silcer. The slicer program does a whole bunch of things. One of the many things is to center the stl model up on the print surface. You can tell your silcer how far above or below the surface you want the print to start. Many people find that re-compiling firmware each time you do a different print is a bit of a pain. Changing the Z offset (start of the print) in the slicer can be an easier way to do things. You have to do it one way or the other (firmware or slicer). It's an iterative  process that has to be done on each printer after it's built. 

In the case of a slicer based adjustment, it can be either negative or positive. The sign simply depends on which direction the offset is being applied in. The standard Marlin firmware has a minimum Z of zero. If you apply an offset of -0.1 mm in your slicer and have a firmware minimum of zero, the offset will be ignored. That makes the process very frustrating .... 

Bob

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## augerpro

I tried enabling Manual Bed Leveling and disabling ABL in the configuration.h file, but the printer behaved exactly the same: jumped through 9 positions on its own and stopped. The .h file compiled and uploaded ok, but I must have not added/removed the // properly. Can you tell me what it should look like?

Manual Bed Leveling ===========================//==================================================  =========================


//#define MANUAL_BED_LEVELING  // Add display menu option for bed leveling.
//#define MESH_BED_LEVELING    // Enable mesh bed leveling.


#if ENABLED(MANUAL_BED_LEVELING)
  #define MBL_Z_STEP 0.025  // Step size while manually probing Z axis.
#endif  // MANUAL_BED_LEVELING


#if ENABLED(MESH_BED_LEVELING)
  #define MESH_MIN_X 20
  #define MESH_MAX_X (X_MAX_POS - MESH_MIN_X)
  #define MESH_MIN_Y 20
  #define MESH_MAX_Y (Y_MAX_POS - MESH_MIN_Y)
  #define MESH_NUM_X_POINTS 3  // Don't use more than 7 points per axis, implementation limited.
  #define MESH_NUM_Y_POINTS 3
  #define MESH_HOME_SEARCH_Z 4  // Z after Home, bed somewhere below but above 0.0.
#endif  // MESH_BED_LEVELING


//==================================================  =========================
//============================ Bed Auto Leveling ============================
//==================================================  =========================


// @section bedlevel


#define AUTO_BED_LEVELING_FEATURE // Delete the comment to enable (remove // at the start of the line)
#define DEBUG_LEVELING_FEATURE
#define Z_MIN_PROBE_REPEATABILITY_TEST  // If not commented out, Z-Probe Repeatability test will be included if Auto Bed Leveling is Enabled.


#if ENABLED(AUTO_BED_LEVELING_FEATURE)


  // There are 2 different ways to specify probing locations:
  //
  // - "grid" mode
  //   Probe several points in a rectangular grid.
  //   You specify the rectangle and the density of sample points.
  //   This mode is preferred because there are more measurements.
  //
  // - "3-point" mode
  //   Probe 3 arbitrary points on the bed (that aren't colinear)
  //   You specify the XY coordinates of all 3 points.


  // Enable this to sample the bed in a grid (least squares solution).
  // Note: this feature generates 10KB extra code size.
  #define AUTO_BED_LEVELING_GRID


  #if ENABLED(AUTO_BED_LEVELING_GRID)


    #define LEFT_PROBE_BED_POSITION 0
    #define RIGHT_PROBE_BED_POSITION 265
    #define FRONT_PROBE_BED_POSITION 0
    #define BACK_PROBE_BED_POSITION 280


    #define MIN_PROBE_EDGE 10 // The Z probe minimum square sides can be no smaller than this.


    // Set the number of grid points per dimension.
    // You probably don't need more than 3 (squared=9).
    #define AUTO_BED_LEVELING_GRID_POINTS 3


  #else  // !AUTO_BED_LEVELING_GRID


      // Arbitrary points to probe.
      // A simple cross-product is used to estimate the plane of the bed.
      #define ABL_PROBE_PT_1_X 15
      #define ABL_PROBE_PT_1_Y 180
      #define ABL_PROBE_PT_2_X 15
      #define ABL_PROBE_PT_2_Y 20
      #define ABL_PROBE_PT_3_X 170
      #define ABL_PROBE_PT_3_Y 20


  #endif // AUTO_BED_LEVELING_GRID


  // Offsets to the Z probe relative to the nozzle tip.
  // X and Y offsets must be integers.
  #define X_PROBE_OFFSET_FROM_EXTRUDER -33     // Z probe to nozzle X offset: -left  +right
  #define Y_PROBE_OFFSET_FROM_EXTRUDER -0     // Z probe to nozzle Y offset: -front +behind
  #define Z_PROBE_OFFSET_FROM_EXTRUDER -1.6  // Z probe to nozzle Z offset: -below (always!)


  #define Z_RAISE_BEFORE_HOMING 4       // (in mm) Raise Z axis before homing (G28) for Z probe clearance.
                                        // Be sure you have this distance over your Z_MAX_POS in case.


  #define XY_TRAVEL_SPEED 8000         // X and Y axis travel speed between probes, in mm/min.


  #define Z_RAISE_BEFORE_PROBING 5   // How much the Z axis will be raised before traveling to the first probing point.
  #define Z_RAISE_BETWEEN_PROBINGS 5  // How much the Z axis will be raised when traveling from between next probing points.
  #define Z_RAISE_AFTER_PROBING 5    // How much the Z axis will be raised after the last probing point.


#define Z_PROBE_END_SCRIPT "G1 Z10 F12000\nG1 X15 Y330\nG1 Z0.5\nG1 Z10" // These commands will be executed in the end of G29 routine.
                                                                            // Useful to retract a deployable Z probe.


  //#define Z_PROBE_SLED // Turn on if you have a Z probe mounted on a sled like those designed by Charles Bell.
  //#define SLED_DOCKING_OFFSET 5 // The extra distance the X axis must travel to pickup the sled. 0 should be fine but you can push it further if you'd like.




  //If you have enabled the Bed Auto Leveling and are using the same Z Probe for Z Homing,
  //it is highly recommended you let this Z_SAFE_HOMING enabled!!!


  #define Z_SAFE_HOMING   // This feature is meant to avoid Z homing with Z probe outside the bed area.
                          // When defined, it will:
                          // - Allow Z homing only after X and Y homing AND stepper drivers still enabled.
                          // - If stepper drivers timeout, it will need X and Y homing again before Z homing.
                          // - Position the Z probe in a defined XY point before Z Homing when homing all axis (G28).
                          // - Block Z homing only when the Z probe is outside bed area.


  #if ENABLED(Z_SAFE_HOMING)


    #define Z_SAFE_HOMING_X_POINT (((X_MIN_POS + X_MAX_POS) / 2)-20)    // X point for Z homing when homing all axis (G28).
    #define Z_SAFE_HOMING_Y_POINT (((Y_MIN_POS + Y_MAX_POS) / 2)-20)    // Y point for Z homing when homing all axis (G28).


  #endif


  // Support for a dedicated Z probe endstop separate from the Z min endstop.
  // If you would like to use both a Z probe and a Z min endstop together,
  // uncomment #define Z_MIN_PROBE_ENDSTOP and read the instructions below.
  // If you still want to use the Z min endstop for homing, disable Z_SAFE_HOMING above.
  // Example: To park the head outside the bed area when homing with G28.
  //
  // WARNING:
  // The Z min endstop will need to set properly as it would without a Z probe
  // to prevent head crashes and premature stopping during a print.
  //
  // To use a separate Z probe endstop, you must have a Z_MIN_PROBE_PIN
  // defined in the pins_XXXXX.h file for your control board.
  // If you are using a servo based Z probe, you will need to enable NUM_SERVOS,
  // Z_ENDSTOP_SERVO_NR and SERVO_ENDSTOP_ANGLES in the R/C SERVO support below.
  // RAMPS 1.3/1.4 boards may be able to use the 5V, Ground and the D32 pin
  // in the Aux 4 section of the RAMPS board. Use 5V for powered sensors,
  // otherwise connect to ground and D32 for normally closed configuration
  // and 5V and D32 for normally open configurations.
  // Normally closed configuration is advised and assumed.
  // The D32 pin in Aux 4 on RAMPS maps to the Arduino D32 pin.
  // Z_MIN_PROBE_PIN is setting the pin to use on the Arduino.
  // Since the D32 pin on the RAMPS maps to D32 on Arduino, this works.
  // D32 is currently selected in the RAMPS 1.3/1.4 pin file.
  // All other boards will need changes to the respective pins_XXXXX.h file.
  //
  // WARNING:
  // Setting the wrong pin may have unexpected and potentially disastrous outcomes.
  // Use with caution and do your homework.
  //
  //#define Z_MIN_PROBE_ENDSTOP


#endif // AUTO_BED_LEVELING_FEATURE




// @section homing


// The position of the homing switches
//#define MANUAL_HOME_POSITIONS  // If defined, MANUAL_*_HOME_POS below will be used
//#define BED_CENTER_AT_0_0  // If defined, the center of the bed is at (X=0, Y=0)


// Manual homing switch locations:
// For deltabots this means top and center of the Cartesian print volume.
#if ENABLED(MANUAL_HOME_POSITIONS)
  #define MANUAL_X_HOME_POS 0
  #define MANUAL_Y_HOME_POS 0
  #define MANUAL_Z_HOME_POS 0
  //#define MANUAL_Z_HOME_POS 402 // For delta: Distance between nozzle and print surface after homing.
#endif


// @section movement


/**
 * MOVEMENT SETTINGS
 */


#define HOMING_FEEDRATE {50*60, 50*60, 200, 0}  // set the homing speeds (mm/min)


// default settings


#define DEFAULT_AXIS_STEPS_PER_UNIT   {80.19,80.19,800,90}  // default steps per unit for Ultimaker
#define DEFAULT_MAX_FEEDRATE          {500, 500, 2, 50}    // (mm/sec)
#define DEFAULT_MAX_ACCELERATION      {3000,3000,5,3000}    // X, Y, Z, E maximum start speed for accelerated moves. E default values are good for Skeinforge 40+, for older versions raise them a lot.


#define DEFAULT_ACCELERATION          500    // X, Y, Z and E acceleration in mm/s^2 for printing moves
#define DEFAULT_RETRACT_ACCELERATION  500    // E acceleration in mm/s^2 for retracts
#define DEFAULT_TRAVEL_ACCELERATION   500    // X, Y, Z acceleration in mm/s^2 for travel (non printing) moves


// The speed change that does not require acceleration (i.e. the software might assume it can be done instantaneously)
#define DEFAULT_XYJERK                20.0    // (mm/sec)
#define DEFAULT_ZJERK                 0.4     // (mm/sec)
#define DEFAULT_EJERK                 5.0    // (mm/sec)

----------


## uncle_bob

Hi

Have you wired the printer for the BL touch (taken out the Z axis limit switch) or for the normal setup (no BL touch). 

If you are digging into customizing your own firmware, go for the latest version and roll your own. It will take a bit of time, but at least you will have all the latest features.

Bob

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## augerpro

We haven't wired the BL Touch because we don't have the mount printed. Haven't even looked at the instructions, but from your comment it takes the place of the Z probe? That makes sense why it bounced around on its own, it did moved on to each position just after the Z stop clicked.

Anyway, no I don't really want to get crazy customizing my firmware - I don't even know what I'm doing - but the auto bed level doesn't look any better than the manual bed level, just more hassle, the manual was easy and quick to do. So I just want to do that. I assume this would require some change to the Z probe settings in the config file though, now that I see how the ABL is using it.

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## augerpro

BTW if anyone can tell me in Cura where to set the Z offset I'd appreciate it!

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## uncle_bob

Hi

When you get it running properly, probe based mesh bed leveling is much better than any form of manual leveling. It also has the advantage that it auto corrects for all the weird variation in glass and hairspray you run into.

Bob

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## augerpro

From the config it looks like Manual BL uses Mesh BL?

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## uncle_bob

The type of bed leveling done is very dependent on the Marlin version you are using. The thing that the better stuff does is to allow for multiple lumps and bumps in the bed. The earlier stuff simply tries to find a flat plane through the data. The whole process of getting the "better" working is rumbling along as we have this conversation.

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## Roxy

I know I'm not objective...   But really...  The UBL branch of Marlin is really good for non-flat beds.  I went to several Dollar stores looking for the worst piece of glass I could find.   I get perfect adhesion across 100% of the bed 100% of the time.

https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marlin/tree/devel-ubl

If you search the Marlin Issue list, you will find a 'Cheat Sheet' with a list of commands to do to get your Mesh perfectly defined.   In fact, you can get a perfect mesh without even having a Z-Probe on the machine.

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## augerpro

I have no idea how to transfer the relevant settings to a machine-agnostic firmware. I just want this thing to work with what is supplied. I haven't gotten far enough to know if I have a "lumpy" bed...

----------


## augerpro

If someone could tell me how to edit the config file I posted to get manual BL enabled that would be great.

----------


## augerpro

How often does one have to level the bed? Does it retain the calibration after a power cycle?

----------


## uncle_bob

Hi

It does not normally retain the auto bed level information after a power cycle. Even if it did, any bump or bash to the printer might muck things up. Better to level it each time. If your print is going to take a couple days, why worry about a minute or two ..

Bob

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## seattle_phil

Hi, I've had my P12 up and running (mostly) for a week or so now. Steep learning curve but I kind of revel in that sort of thing. I'm a bit late to this thread so some of this is for people who come later.

Anyway, a few things from this thread:

cura - no Z offset but you can set it in the "pre" G-code. Not sure the details but I found it in a forum somewhere. That's one of the reasons I decided to stop focusing on Cura. By the way slic3r 1.2.9 stable is really quite good. I'm using it now and while it's not a pretty as Cura, it works quite well.bed leveling - I do it every day. Makes a difference. I will also do if I've been fussing with the machine.lumpy bed - I posit that an average piece of glass will be fine. I've had 2 pieces (don't ask me why that was necessary) from ACE hardware. They both were within .3 mm of flat based on manual bed leveling and I have had zero bed adhesion issues. Garnier Fructis #5 is epic stuff! Note that I spent a lot of time getting the bed heater bolts/springs at a very precise level. Once that is done, everything else is easy.upgrading the printer - I know this won't do augerpro any good but I highly recommend assembling the basic stock printer. Get it working and tuned up. You will learn a lot and be able to print your own parts.

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## mook898

So Still not printing. Have the upgraded rods and now bought simplify3d. been through the whole machine numerous times. Still problems with the printing, can make cone or cube that is about it. Had a neighbor make me  cooling fan to see if that would help, which is another issue it always is on. I cant even run fan with the any of the slicers. Im going to try and follow simplify3d bed level technique. Overall just frustrated right now and not to impressed with the quality of the prints.Just don't now what to try from here.

1st I guess is how to control part cooling fan
2nd i guess is setting help with the slicer

----------

