# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > RepRap Format Printer Forum >  The curse of ABS (Warping)

## DrLuigi

Hey guys,

As everyone knows PLA and ABS are great plastics with both there cons and negatives,

Now i'm trying ABS for a few days now when i am pretty known with PLA, 

With small parts ABS works GREAT, But once i am like at 100mm for example its starts to warp,

It used to only warp at the bottom due i used Hairspray as i did for my PLA parts, So i went and made some ABS glue,
This was a great improvement, It didnt warp anymore from the bottom,

But now it started to rip parts of some layers apart,
Like in the middle of a print, it has a rip in it, Not the whole print layer but a side of it.


Anyone a idea how to fight Warping?

My room temprature is aprox 20c, 
Its next to a heater, so i could tune that a little up, But the wood were the makerfarm is made from could always warp due sudden heat i guess.

My print head is at 225c and bed 105c.


Thanks guys ^^

Best regards,
DrLuigi.

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## Black_sheep

Hi DrLuigi,

I haven't used ABS much since I prefer PLA but still I might suggest you to use closed heated chamber.
If is is possible add some acrylic glass sheets around your working area thus the heat coming from heated bed will be trapped 
inside and temperature will be significantly higher than the surrounding.

Another pretty simple thing you can try is to set skirt to the same height as your printed part is. That might also help to prevent
cooling of the perimeters.

Hope it helps  :Smile: 

- Filip

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## DrLuigi

Well already thought about the heated chamber, But i don't realy have a large table or enough space for it realy,
Will consider it in Aluminium/acrylic but not sure yet.

 About the skirt, never realy heard about that one, and isnt a option in Cura,
Btw i am kinda a Cura fan :P it should need more options/parameters but after that its just great to use it ^^

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## RP Iron Man

> Well already thought about the heated chamber, But i don't realy have a large table or enough space for it realy,
> Will consider it in Aluminium/acrylic but not sure yet.
> 
>  About the skirt, never realy heard about that one, and isnt a option in Cura,
> Btw i am kinda a Cura fan :P it should need more options/parameters but after that its just great to use it ^^


As a quick fix, you can wrap a plastic garbage bag over your printer to trap the heat from the bed inside and prevent any drafts. This is what I do and I get no warp when printing on glass coated in elmer's glue stick. The increased ambient temperature inside the chamber really helps eliminate delamination.

Eric

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## Black_sheep

Hehe I never saw anyone put a garbage bag over 3D printer but if it helps why not  :Wink: 

Well slic3r has option to print skirt more than one layer thick. It slows down printing a bit and uses more filament though. It will prevent direct exposure to any excess airflow from the fan and also trap some heat. 

I agree Cura is awesome but I got sort of used to slic3r + pronterface combination and it's pretty hard to kick the habit of using those  :Big Grin: 

- Filip

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## MeoWorks

Yeah unfortunately keeping the printer sealed is one of the best ways to help with warping and edge curling. I run slic3r and pronterface and the brim feature helps a ton with PLA curling at the edges, even with a heated bed and hair spray. It should help you immensely with ABS warping if you put a large enough brim.

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## DrLuigi

Imo Cura lacks parameters/settings, after that its awsome!

Also about the Skirt ye that seems like a great idea, But i just aint sure if it will work,
I might make a aluminium case, Its just i dont have the place for it atm, will think about it i guess :P

Thanks for the help guys ^^

Kinda went back to PLA at the moment for a larger piece, but ye ABS is great for smaller stuff, PLA is very brittle with small diameters/sizes, i guess ABS might do better with that.


/edit
Didnt see your comment yet MeoWorks,
Well i use ABS glue (acetone + abs) and it kinda reacts as a Brim,
I could perhaps use a combination of ABS glue and a Brim, But the problem is then, that the plastic layers will actualy rip, 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cb8kyte9nr...2014.11.08.jpg
That was my last attempt on a larger piece :P 120x50x60 if i remember the size well.

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## Black_sheep

Please accept my deepest condolences for such a nice print, it really looked well until it cracked :/

Another although quite wasteful solution would be to put one or two of those IR heating lamps on the printer so they heat the printed part.
But you will use lots of electricity :P

I don't think that brim of any size will help with that part since the cracks appear all over the object due to inner tension.

- Filip

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## MeoWorks

Agreed a brim won't help here. I think the only way to remedy this is to keep the piece uniformity heated since it really does seem like it's cracking due to internal stress from uneven cooling. The heat lamps sound like a good idea, I use standard 40w bulbs for keeping wax warm while I sculpt, and shouldn't cost you more than $3/yr  :Smile:

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## Tom

Try lowering the printhead for the first layer to get better adhesion, also not sure if the fan is pointing on the print or ducted towards the head but have you tried without the fan? Some swear without a fan is the way to go for ABS.  One last thing is printing on a raft helps many people.

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## DrLuigi

> Please accept my deepest condolences for such a nice print, it really looked well until it cracked :/
> 
> Another although quite wasteful solution would be to put one or two of those IR heating lamps on the printer so they heat the printed part.
> But you will use lots of electricity :P
> 
> I don't think that brim of any size will help with that part since the cracks appear all over the object due to inner tension.
> 
> - Filip


Haha, Well it isnt one of the best i had ^^
http://puu.sh/47KmU
Is one my coolest prints imo ^^
Well its a bulb or a box so the heat stays inside i guess.




> Agreed a brim won't help here. I think the only way to remedy this is to keep the piece uniformity heated since it really does seem like it's cracking due to internal stress from uneven cooling. The heat lamps sound like a good idea, I use standard 40w bulbs for keeping wax warm while I sculpt, and shouldn't cost you more than $3/yr


Well i will see, Its that or a box, or i might just use ABS for small parts and when i wanna print bigger stuff i will have to use some nice PLA :P



Thanks for the help guys,
As side note i realy like how this community is growing with some very nice members, Realy hoping the best atm  :Smile: 




Edit: 




> Try lowering the printhead for the first layer to get better adhesion, also not sure if the fan is pointing on the print or ducted towards the head but have you tried without the fan? Some swear without a fan is the way to go for ABS. One last thing is printing on a raft helps many people.


Didnt see your post, you probably made yours when i was posting mine ^^
Well i have 2 fans, One is always on and thats blowing air on the PEEK of the hot end, the other on the plastic, The one with a funnel to the plastic is controlable and is only on when i use PLA not with ABS.

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## Black_sheep

True that, 40W bulb really shouldn't burn too much. I am running multiple machines at a time thus my favorite material is PLA. It even smells better and Faberdashery supplies colors that you simply can't stop loving  :Smile: 




> Haha, Well it isnt one of the best i had ^^
> http://puu.sh/47KmU
> Is one my coolest prints imo ^^
> Well its a bulb or a box so the heat stays inside i guess.


Nice owl indeed  :Smile:  is this PLA?

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## DrLuigi

Well i also used PLA normaly, but wanted to try ABS for once,

I do hate that when you have like a smaller pin (1-3mm diameter) its VERY brittle, With ABS it seems to be better, Didnt try it yet tho, but it just seems like its stronger in smaller sizes.

Probably going to test that over a few days.

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## Black_sheep

Yeah, PLA parts can be very brittle when thin. From my experience you can make thin parts a bit more rigid if you use more perimeters (lets say 5 or more), normally I print with 2 or 3 perimeters.
Though I must say some good quality filament performs very well when dealing with thinner objects.

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## DrLuigi

Well with cura i just set the wall thicker and thicker density/full.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o6jur4ylv5...2020.05.26.jpg ^^ (0.3 layer height, 70mm/s print speed, Normal PLA, took about 5 hours and 30 minutes)

Just a little Tool holder i made in Solidworks for a caliper and such.

Kinda going off topic now hehe ^^

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## Black_sheep

That's a nice print, in fact you just gave me an idea to make something similar for lab test tubes. Those stainless steel holders for test tubes are kinda expensive here so why not print them  :Smile: 

I suppose thicker wall is the same as perimeter settings is Slic3r so you might have some luck with thinner parts if you increase it.

Anyways almost every part is unique and unfortunately there is no universal setting that works well on every part. But hey that's why 3D printing will never make you bored  :Wink:

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## Hårball

The solution to this is simple, turn up the heat on your bed, i had similar problems in the past, but then tried to print at 120c, it worked like a charm, the plastic keeps softer then, and does not "collect" the warping forces in the print.

i set my first layer temp to 100c and the other layers to 120c, that way i dont have to wait forever for the bed to get to temerature and the printing to begin.

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## RP Iron Man

> The solution to this is simple, turn up the heat on your bed, i had similar problems in the past, but then tried to print at 120c, it worked like a charm, the plastic keeps softer then, and does not "collect" the warping forces in the print.
> 
> i set my first layer temp to 100c and the other layers to 120c, that way i dont have to wait forever for the bed to get to temerature and the printing to begin.


I actually do the opposite. I print with the first layer at 110C and the other layers at 80C within my "garbage chamber"  :Big Grin:  (clear garbage bag chamber). I find that if I set the temp above 100C for the entire print I get some heat distortion of the part on the bottom layers.

Eric

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## Hårball

You mean that the weight of the part squishes the bottom layers?

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## Black_sheep

> I actually do the opposite. I print with the first layer at 110C and the other layers at 80C within my "garbage chamber"  (clear garbage bag chamber). I find that if I set the temp above 100C for the entire print I get some heat distortion of the part on the bottom layers.
> 
> Eric


Hi Eric,

Do you use kapton tape or do you print directly to the glass?

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## Keith

Indeed Tom is right, I never use a fan on ABS and it certainly helps the lifting situation. Another method I use which combined with not using a fan is a small fan heater, it doesn't need to be an infra red heater just one of the cheap ones, in England B&Q sell them for about 5 or 6 GBP so they don't hurt the budget and the saving on material pays for the heater in the long run.

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## RP Iron Man

> You mean that the weight of the part squishes the bottom layers?


Above it's glass transition temperature (Tg) of about 105C, ABS takes on a soft, rubbery consistency and consequently is very susceptible to deformation. When you have the bed temperature hot enough, the bottom layers of the part rise above the Tg of ABS and become soft and rubbery. As a result, the weight of the part is enough to slowly squish/deform the bottom layers.

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Hi Eric,

Do you use kapton tape or do you print directly to the glass?
---------------

No, a while ago I experimented with several different bed setups for ABS printing and I found that I had the most success with glue stick (Elmer's, UHU, etc..) applied to glass. 

I found that kapton stuck well, but the part often lifted the tape right off the glass bed, and parts were very hard to remove without damaging the kapton. 

I have never had success printing on heated glass, no matter how carefully I cleaned the glass or how hot I set the heat bed. I tried ABS glue on glass as well, but it never really worked consistently and was a real PITA.

Here is my complete printing set up for ABS printing on my Prusa I2:

- 2 smooth, even layers of Elmer's glue stick applied to glass surface (allow each layer to dry before applying the next). Reapply every 48 hours of printing or as you see fit (adhesion of glue stick starts to wear out after a while). You can just apply the layers on top of each other until the surface starts to get messy, at which point you can easily wash the layers of old glue stick off with water.
- First layer bed temp = 120 though you could get away with less.
- Other layers bed temp = 80C for large parts, but you can raise this to 90C or even 100C if you are having trouble with tall skinny parts lifting off the bed.
- Wrap clear plastic garbage bag around your print area to trap in the heat from the heat bed (at 90C bed temp I can get to about 40C chamber temp)
- Put a fan blowing over your extruder motor as it will get hot.
- Enjoy your warp-free prints!  :Smile: 

Eric

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## Black_sheep

Thanks for sharing your recipe for warp-free ABS print Eric  :Smile: 

As for the kapton goes I had roughly the same problems when I tried to print ABS, even cooling the bed down to room temperature didn't prevent excessive attachment and damage to the tape. 

Anyways I am running my machines inside the flat and I got too much complaints from my family about the smell of ABS so I quit using it quite soon. PLA is my absolute favorite although ABS is very useful for tall thin parts  :Smile: 

- Filip

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## RP Iron Man

> Thanks for sharing your recipe for warp-free ABS print Eric 
> 
> As for the kapton goes I had roughly the same problems when I tried to print ABS, even cooling the bed down to room temperature didn't prevent excessive attachment and damage to the tape. 
> 
> Anyways I am running my machines inside the flat and I got too much complaints from my family about the smell of ABS so I quit using it quite soon. PLA is my absolute favorite although ABS is very useful for tall thin parts 
> 
> - Filip


BTW, I forgot to mention, the parts usually pop off by themselves once the bed has cooled to about 50C. You should hear some cracking noises as this happens. You can use a fan to speed up the cooling after the print is done, but only if you are using a borosilicate or tempered glass surface. Ordinary thin window glass is more sensitive to temperature fluctuations, so it could crack if you try to cool it too quickly. 

In either case, you will never have to pry the parts off the bed again  :Smile: 

Eric

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## jimc

i pretty much print exclusively with abs. the next thing on my list is to make the box for the printer but with the few things i have done, i have made a big improvement and i dont have any issues with abs unless i am doing something really big with thin walls like a box. #1 like ironman said the cooler bed temp works better than higher. on my printer i have found 90-95deg to be the spot. another thing i have found is with a glass build platform there was a big variance in temp at different points on the bed. the center may be 95 but at the corners it could be as little as 72deg. i ditched the glass and got a 1/4" thick piece of mic6 aluminum. now there is only a 1deg difference across the whole platform. a very even heat. always run the extruder tamp as low as you possibly can while still getting good layer bonding. this will vary with filament used. i always print on kapton with abs glue. i recently glass beaded one side of my mic6 for better adhesion so i am going to do some testing soon to see if i can eliminate the kapton. i dont have any issue with it but if i can eliminate that step it would be nice. if you have a large piece where the corners tend to lift then model some mouse ears onto the corners. they work wonders.

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## JohnA136

We use our Prusas for PLA and our MBs for ABS since they are enclosed. We have been printing with the ABS slurry on Kapton Tape.  The Heated bed is usually set at 110 degrees.   If I am doing a Demo or in a big hurry, a quick blast from an inverted air duster makes them pop right off.  This has worked well for us on our ABS machines, your mileage may vary!

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## Keith

First point, I'm wondering why there are so many variances between machines running the same products, I use Kapton when printing with ABS and find that I can pull off the finished print with my fingers more or less within a minute of the job finishing, it pops off easily but has adhered to the kapton throughout the print. There are others using the same set up who struggle like crazy to get the print off and yet others who cannot even get the print to hold whilst printing, anyone know why?

Second point, I'm looking at other ways of adhesion to save the cost of Kapton, there is mention of Elmers, now my wife is American, I'm English (not British by the way, my wife understands the reasons why now I've explained to her  :Smile:  ) and she tells me that Elmers is used by kids in primary school but she's not able to tell me what the comparison is over here. I imagine it's a gentle waterbased glue so it could be something like PVA glue otherwise known as wood glue that joiners and cabinet makers use. Would I be right in saying this ?

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## skew

Keith, Elmers glue is also called white glue. Its also used as a food substitute in the U.S. for elementary kids they love eating it for some reason. LOL

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## JohnA136

I think the big difference in adhesion to Kapton tape is how close the nozzle is to the heated print bed.  if you have it the first layer squished on real good, it will practically never pull up and warp during the build, but is harder to get off when done.  It is is just laid on for the first layer, it comes off easily but will probably pop off on a larger/longer print.  There is a little finesse needed to get it "just right". On my Cupcakes, I adjust the first layer height on the run.

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## Mysli

Luigi, you might wanna try and sand down you kapton as described in my solidoodle upgrade thread.
After i did so myself i can actually lift the whole printer in small prints... thats how good it works for me  :Big Grin:

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## DrLuigi

Well i dont use Kapton,
Only ABS glue or Hairspray,

ABS is imo great but only for small things,

Bigger stuff, well it always warped for me :P

Might try to get a trash bag and put it over it and see if the heat is kept in.

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## Keith

Have you tried pva glue ? the white woodworkers glue. I've just got my new hot end fixed up and I'running some trials with it  also with ABS glue and finally with Pritt Stick. I'll report back when I have some meaningful results.

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## DrLuigi

Well i had great glue before,
But instead of the ABS going from the heated bed, the layers where ripped from each other :P

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## Mysli

Well if you dont use it Luigi, then may i suggest getting some just to try  :Smile:

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## Hårball

I bougt a roll of PET tape from ebay just to try it out, and god damn how well the abs sticks to it, almost too well, i am now printing a 180x180 mm print without any signs of lift in the corners, this is with bed temp at 110'c and a 40mm fan constantly blowing at the magma hot end.

beware that you will need to wash the taped bed with acetone before printing to get fat\oil residues off.

Highly recommended to try, you can get it pretty cheap from china.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-50mm-x-1...-/151062877293

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## DrLuigi

Sticking isnt the problem like i said,

It sticks rly well, but the layers are getting ripped from each other,
As you can see here : https://www.dropbox.com/s/ibkb4q0ui1...2023.02.49.jpg

A print ive done a sec ago :P

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## Hårball

To get around this you have a couple of options.:

1 - more infill may help
2 - get the bed temp up
3 - get the ambient temperature up. (heated chamber)

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## DrLuigi

Well the infill was already 40% or so,

Bed temp was 115c wich is pretty high, last option is the ambient temprature i guess :P
Already knew that for a while but still trying to find a chamber for it :P
Probably a trash bag or something.

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## Mysli

Luigi, you could try just placing a cardboard box over the printer when printing ABS. I kinda did that with my SD3 and was able to raise my bed temp from 85 to about 100C and the ambient temp is ofcourse higher too.

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## jimc

just a bit of info, stratasys will run a heated chamber at 70c. this is the temp needed to print in to keep the part relaxed enough for no warping.

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## vandborg

well. I have no problems with ABS. But I have used many figurations until I did this one:
Hotend 270 degree C
Bed 115 C
Filament speed 292
Infill 0.15 - 0.3
Everything works like a charme. My 3D printer is a RepRapPro Mono Mendel. with Melzi board.

Regards
Torben

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## ldabkey

Keith-

The Elmer's glue solution I am aware of is using an Elmer's glue STICK. This is not quite the same as liquid glue as it is paste-like substance. It comes in tubes like lipstick and is used in a similar way on your build plate. You 'write' it on the build plate. I think the European equivalents may be Pritt or UHU that make glue sticks. These are available at office supply stores.

Good luck and cheers!

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## RP Iron Man

> Keith-
> 
> The Elmer's glue solution I am aware of is using an Elmer's glue STICK. This is not quite the same as liquid glue as it is paste-like substance. It comes in tubes like lipstick and is used in a similar way on your build plate. You 'write' it on the build plate. I think the European equivalents may be Pritt or UHU that make glue sticks. These are available at office supply stores.
> 
> Good luck and cheers!


Yeah, using Elmer's Glue Stick is much easier than applying liquid glue. I also find that Elmer's is much more consistent and smoothly applied than the UHU brand. I haven't tried Pritt though...

Eric

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## intohim

> Yeah, using Elmer's Glue Stick is much easier than applying liquid glue.  I also find that Elmer's is much more consistent and smoothly applied  than the UHU brand. I haven't tried Pritt though...


I hadn't even thought about the Elmer's Glue trick.  I'm going to have to give this a try.

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## DrLuigi

Well i find hairspray good enough on most prints these days,

On sharp corners i normaly use a Brim feature, Almost never failed on me, The only thing that does happen is that the layers split, but thats all realy.

I don't believe we have Elmer's glue in Europe.

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## KDog

I use aquanet on kapton and a heated bed at 85C.  Works most of the time.  When I do get warping it seems to be related to bed leveling more than the surface.

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## RP Iron Man

> Well i find hairspray good enough on most prints these days,
> 
> On sharp corners i normaly use a Brim feature, Almost never failed on me, The only thing that does happen is that the layers split, but thats all realy.
> 
> I don't believe we have Elmer's glue in Europe.


Any type of glue stick should work. Elmer's is nice because it can be applied in a very smooth layer whereas UHU is a little messy.

Eric

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## RogerD

i3 here with a J-Head Mk v. Lots of warping of larger parts (Wades extruder, or the X-carriage) until:

Kapton, 105 degrees. Make sure the whole bed has heated evenly so leave for 15 mins after it has reached temp.
ABS at 235 degrees
No fans, draughts, door closed!
ABS paste on the kapton. Until I applied the paste I failed.

Now it's all working!

I still get minor layers peeling from each other occasionally.

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## ciutateivissa

Over a couple of weeks I found out that prtinting in ABS is quite tricky for me and I never had perfect results so far. Happy to hear about all your experiences here, but I´m asking myself what would be a real guideline of dos and don´ts? for instance in terms of bed temperature we have quite different results here...

Let´s try to summerize this thread:

- heat bed temperture between 105 - 120 degrees, after first layer reduced to 80 - 100 degrees
- print on Kapton, PET tape, aluminium, glass or mirror - so it don`t matter?
- prepare the bed with glue, ABS paste, glue stick
- use more infill
- constant high ambient temperature or better: heated chamber
- no fan´s at all, problematic if your hotend needs one

Did I missed anything?

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## LambdaFF

Thanks to all of you for these contributions., just a few questions.

@RP Iron Man : nice trick with the garbage bag, how hot does it reach inside ? Don't you fear to overheat some components ? Or do you make holes to keep warm but not too hot ?

I was looking at the Printrbot Go v2 and they wrote on their twitter page they wound't do a heated bed due to warping. So I guess from what you all put this is mainly due to the very "open architecture" and could be solved with closing it a bit, that so ? 

Anyone using a Creatr Xl or such big volume machine ? Do they have the same issue ?

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