# 3D Printing > General 3D Printing Discussion >  Best Material For A Bird Fountain?

## davidhunternyc

Hello,

This is my first post on the 3D Print Board. I have a project that I've been working on for a year. I live in NYC and I've been feeding birds on my fire escape. I've attracted blue jays, downy woodpeckers, goldfinches, and house finches. All of them are beautiful birds and they bring joy to my life. Simple pleasures.

Besides feeding these birds I also want to provide fresh water for them. Every water fountain I've seen online is a plug-in water fountain and being that my fountain is outside on a fire escape I can not use a corded fountain. Recently I commissioned a ceramicist to custom make for me a water fountain that runs on lithium batteries. (See photo below.) The biggest challenge was to make this water fountain double-walled and insulated so in the hot summer months, with an ice pack, I can keep water cool for the birds.

As successful as this project was there are improvements to the design that can be made. The fountain is very heavy and being that it is handmade there were limitations to the preciseness and tolerances of the design. With 3D modeling and printing I can design a fountain in a way that is impossible to build by hand with clay. But first things first...

There are many different types of materials I can use. I am hoping that you experts out there would suggest a material for me to use. Here are the requirements:

1) Most importantly, the material must be inert and not leach chemicals. The water needs to stay fresh and clean and not poison the birds.
2) The material should be somewhat heat resistant.
3) The material should be strong like ceramic but, if possible, not as brittle as ceramic.
4) The material should be light weight so that the finished fountain could be hung from a tree or a balcony rail.
5) The material should be attractive, perhaps resembling stone.

Before I model the bird fountain I need to also know, what is the largest size these printers can handle for the chosen material? Also, what are the limitations in terms of thinness and thickness for the chosen material? What 3D company should I use to print the bird fountain? If there is anything I am overlooking please let me know.

Your help is greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
David

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## curious aardvark

well if you were going to print it yourself - use pet-g. 
If using a print service - then a commercial nylon and sls (selective laser sintering) would be a good choice as that has almost no design issues. 
ie: you don't have to worry about underhangs or overhangs or supports or anything really. 

To make it look like stone - paint it :-)

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## davidhunternyc

Thanks for the reply. No, I do not have a printer so I will need to use a service. I need to print 14" X 14" X 8". The only printer service I know of is Shapeways but I don't know if Shapeways will be the best service for my project. I am open to suggestions. I do not want to paint the finished water fountain. Paint is dangerous for birds and doesn't weather well in the elements. It's simpler and better to find a material that looks and functions great directly from the printer. Would you please send me a link to a service that uses commercial nylon and "sls"? I don't even know what sls is.

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## curious aardvark

> sls (selective laser sintering)


it uses nylon powder and a laser to create items layer by layer - similiar to fdm (fused deposition modelling/manufacturing) but as a complete layer is laid down each time (building a solid cube of powder with the sintered object inside) you have very few restrictions to what you can make - shape wise. 

shapeways use sls. 

But from a purely aesthetic viewpoint (something I rarely see the point of) your ceramic fountain will probably ALWAYS look better :-) 

lol what the hell have shapeways done to their website ? 
Absolutely impossible to find out what materials they have without either asking for a quote or uploading a model. 
Sheesh.

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## davidhunternyc

Thank you Aardvark, 

Yes, clay is great. It's just not precise so that's why I was thinking of 3D Ceramic printing. I just don't know if it is feasible. I was checking out Nylon PA12 in grey and it looks rather attractive. 

What I'm trying to find out too is if there is a material with incredible thermal properties. Is there a way to keep water cold in a vessel on a hot summer day? Or will I have to make a double-wall vessel with insulation like I did with the ceramic fountain above?

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## swedisq

Simpler styles, such as *concrete birdbaths or basic plastic basins, maybe the best choice for ease of cleaning and overall durability. Some materials, such as glazed basins or copper birdbaths, may stay naturally cleaner* Official KFC Survey

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## davidhunternyc

Guys, please read my first post. I already have a clay bird bath with glazed basin. I want to 3D print a bird bath. Please help with recommending materials. Thank you.

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## curious aardvark

lol - now expecting people on an internet forum to actually_ read and comprehend_ your question - is being a bit unreasonable ;-)

From an insulation point of view then a 2 part print you could fill with polystyrene would be simplest. 

I did notice that shapeways also have various binderjet machines includign the new(ish) hp one. So would be able to print in both full colour and quite finely textured surfaces. 
By creating a model with a textured surface you can easily create a stone or ceramic like appearance.
With the hp machine you could not only have a textured surface but also full colour artistic decorations.

Before you decide, get a quote for something of a similiar size - 'cos it won't be cheap !

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## davidhunternyc

Yes, Aardvark, perhaps my expectations were too high. : ) Thanks for your suggestions. I will check out the binderjet hp machine at Shapeways. I have been asked about uploading a 3D model to get a quote from a couple of companies. I have not made the model yet because I don't know which material I'm going to use and I don't know how thick or thin the tolerances are. Does this seem reasonable to you? Find the material then do the 3D model? Also, I was recommended to use the following company that specializes in ceramics. Please take a look and let me know what you think. Are their printers more appropriate than the binderjet printer from Shapeways? Like I said, I don't know anything about 3D printing so I need to rely on the expertise of others. http://www.akronporcelain.com/default.htm

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## curious aardvark

lol - wrong way round - create the model FIRST - always :-)

Then find out what material and process you can actually afford. THEN modifiy it to fit the materials and print processes within your budget :-)

The akron people are traditional manufacturing methods only and will most likely cost a lot more, as they are geared up for large numbers of units NOT a one off custom item. 

You can always just pick something similiar off thingiverse to get an initial idea.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3672008

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## oneeyepete

for outdoor use, ASA would be the best material. looking at the geometry of what you posted, I think if you want to pay someone with a lathe or a CNC lathe to make the top and bottom die, this would be a good design for injection molding. you could maybe do some kind of resin casting at home instead of injection molding. any FDM printer will have layer lines. this looks like a staircase with 0.1mm layer height. sls or sla would be better to avoid the layer lines but I think you would probably only use sla to make a posative plug for casting.

as for the material strength, they are similar. you will not make the part thin like paper or thick like ceramic. probably something in between. the 3d printing company you use will probably tell you if the part is too thin to work. if it is too thick they will print it anyway for more $.

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## davidhunternyc

@oneeyepete Thank you for your input. I've been calling around and even though this project is doable with 3D printing it looks like it will cost me $2,000 or more! Whooaa... a bit too rich for my blood. So maybe a CNC machine would work better? Would it be just as expensive? I live in a small NYC apartment so I don't have the space for any equipment. I would have to outsource the project. There just has to be a way to find someone to make this within a budget I can afford.

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## oneeyepete

in many countries people have a lot of free time, a lot of creativity, passion etc.. but not a lot of money. this is where the DIY lathe comes in. or alternatively, the DIY pottery wheel. people have built these things from old car parts for many years. I don't think you can do it in your apartment. what you want can be 3d printed for less than $200 from ASA filament. you just need to find someone with a 3d printer that can print ASA in the size that you want. it could take a week to print on high detail. the professional shops charge a lot for that time. some hobby user or makerspace will give it to you for the $50 monthly membership fee + a spool of $40 ASA. fusion 360 is free for student or non-commercial use.

sls nylon will be expensive in that size. you can also look at forming thermoplastics. that is like stamping. a bit different than injection molding. there are techniques that involve spinning a disc while pressing on it to form it. I have only seen it done in metal but I don't see any reason why not to try it with thermoplastics. bowls can be pressed from discs with hot dies. I don't see why you can't do that with a bird bath. the design will be something that works for the technique used. a 3d model (the design) will be different for 3d printing vs injection molding vs stamping. you need to understand what 3d printing can not do. $2000 sls in that size for example. 3d printed parts with overhangs can be a problem. cleaning 3d printed parts can be a problem. moulded PVC is super easy to clean if it has a good surface finish. it is used in vinyl siding. some formulations are good for 100 years outdoors.

the question is why build a bird bath. why not buy it. what are you willing to pay for that bird bath. will you make money back selling your design or your product. if you already own a 3d printer AND you can do 3d design, this is a free bird bath. for everyone else, it is not. that is why for everyone else it is a tool for work. a path to a business that saves time vs traditional methods. that does not guarantee a good product. it only reduces cost for people who make products.

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## bellabh

Simpler styles, such as concrete birdbaths or basic plastic basins, maybe the best choice for ease of cleaning and overall durability. Some materials, such as glazed basins or copper birdbaths, may stay naturally cleaner.


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## curious aardvark

$2000 for a one off smallish print from a printing service ? 

You've got something screwed up there for sure. 

Have you done a design at all ?

As fas a cnc and injection moulding goes - yes that would cost a LOT more.

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## davidhunternyc

> $2000 for a one off smallish print from a printing service ? 
> 
> You've got something screwed up there for sure. 
> 
> Have you done a design at all ?
> 
> As fas a cnc and injection moulding goes - yes that would cost a LOT more.


An 18 inch X 11 inch bird fountain doesn't seem like a smallish print. Everyone I've talked to said it's huge, hence the price. I would think that with Covid printing services would welcome this project but they are still very busy with other projects. Good for them. I've pretty much given up this idea. It sucks. No, I have not done a CAD drawing yet. First I need to find out what's feasible and what the material is first. I'm kind of giving up on the idea. This sucks but it's a first world problem.

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## curious aardvark

Nope - first you NEED the design. 
How can you find out what is feasible if nobody knows what it is you actually want to print ? 
You are approaching this in entirely the wrong way. 

And for less than 2000 dollars you can buy a printer with a larger print volume than 18x11. Actully for less than half that. 
https://www.tevo.cn/products/3d-prin...ittle-monster/
Less than $750 in fact. 

So there's that - but until you have a design you can do nothing. 
You can't estimate how much material you need. Until you can run a design through a slicer - there is simply no way you can either work out what you need or get a sensible quote. 

As far as material goes. 
Pet-g is impervious to uv light, water and most solvents and petrochemicals. 
And while tricky it's easier to use than asa.  - which is essentially slighly modified abs. 

This is not a complicated or difficult project - as long as you do things the right way round :-)

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## johnshelbyy

> Simpler styles, such as *concrete birdbaths or basic plastic basins, maybe the best choice for ease of cleaning and overall durability. Some materials, such as glazed basins or copper birdbaths, may stay naturally cleaner* Official KFC Survey


*Birds* don't bathe in deep water. Keep the level in your *birdbath* to about two inches or less. This is *perfect* for songbirds to wade into and splash around. If your *bath* basin is deep, place a layer of pea gravel or some large, flat stones in the bottom to offer *birds* a choice of water levels.

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## johnshelbyy

> Simpler styles, such as *concrete birdbaths or basic plastic basins, maybe the best choice for ease of cleaning and overall durability. Some materials, such as glazed basins or copper birdbaths, may stay naturally cleaner* Official KFC Survey


informative thanks

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## SKP Global

Simpler styles, such as concrete birdbaths or basic plastic basins, maybe the best choice for ease of cleaning and overall durability. Some materials, such as glazed basins or copper birdbaths, may stay naturally cleaner.

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## harrycharlesop

Concrete is a popular material for bird baths, as it's extremely heavy, durable, and weather-resistant. If you're hoping to buy a bird bath made from concrete, the Athena Garden Octagon Bird Bath is a top-rated option 






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## fatemeh

> Hello,This is my first post on the 3D Print Board. I have a project that I've been working on for a year. I live in NYC and I've been feeding birds on my fire escape. I've attracted blue jays, downy woodpeckers, goldfinches, and house finches. All of them are beautiful birds and they bring joy to my life. Simple pleasures.Besides feeding these birds I also want to provide fresh water for them. Every water fountain I've seen online is a plug-in water fountain and being that my fountain is outside on a fire escape I can not use a corded fountain. Recently I commissioned a ceramicist to custom make for me a water fountain that runs on lithium batteries. (See photo below.) The biggest challenge was to make this water fountain double-walled and insulated so in the hot summer months, with an ice pack, I can keep water cool for the birds.As successful as this project was there are improvements to the design that can be made. The fountain is very heavy and being that it is handmade there were limitations to the preciseness and tolerances of the design. With 3D modeling and printing I can design a fountain in a way that is impossible to build by hand with clay. But first things first...There are many different types of materials I can use. I am hoping that you experts out there would suggest a material for me to use. Here are the requirements:1) Most importantly, the material must be inert and not leach chemicals. The water needs to stay fresh and clean and not poison the birds.2) The material should be somewhat heat resistant.3) The material should be strong like ceramic but, if possible, not as brittle as ceramic.4) The material should be light weight so that the finished fountain could be hung from a tree or a balcony rail.5) The material should be attractive, perhaps resembling stone.Before I model the bird fountain I need to also know, what is the largest size these printers can handle for the chosen material? Also, what are the limitations in terms of thinness and thickness for the chosen material? What 3D company should I use to print the bird fountain? If there is anything I am overlooking please let me know.Your help is greatly appreciated.Thank you,David


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## WillCardwell

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## rockdee733

I did notice that shapeways also have various binderjet machines includign the new(ish) hp one. So would be able to print in both full colour and quite finely textured surfaces.

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