# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > RepRap Format Printer Forum > MakerFarm Forum >  Itty Bitty Double Extruder

## clough42

Introducing the Itty Bitty Double Extruder:


IBDE-RightFront.jpg
This is a completely new dual extruder system:

Dual Hexagon hot ends on 20mm centersQuiet, zero-backlash belt driveNEMA 14 motorsIntegrated hot end coolingIntegrated print coolingIntegrated servo Z-probe for auto-bed-levelingEasy-to-install cam-lock idler bearing shafts2g lighter and 2mm narrower than the standard MakerFarm hinged single extruderIncludes all parts necessary to mount on MakerFarm Prusa i3v printers
Please use this thread for questions and discussion.

**** A hardware kit is now available! ***
*Get it here

*Links:*

*Printable parts: * http://clough42.com/go/itty-bitty-double-extruder*Assembly Instructions: * http://clough42.com/go/itty-bitty-do...ruder-assembly*Calibration Instructions:* http://clough42.com/go/double-extruder-calibration*Hardware kit:* http://clough42.com/product/itty-bit...-hardware-kit/*HXT900 Servo:* http://clough42.com/product/hxt900-servo/*Firmware: * https://github.com/clough42/Marlin
Forked from beckdac/Marlin (Roxy's enhanced G29)*Branches:*
*​Marlin_v1: * main from upstream*​hardware/i3v_double_bitty:*  MakerFarm Prusa i3v (8") with auto-leveling
Configuration.h - https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cl...onfiguration.hConfiguration_adv.h - https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cl...guration_adv.h

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## clough42

There has been a fair amount of interest in a hardware kit, so I've been investigating pricing.

What would you want in a hardware kit for the extruder?

Screws, bearings, pulleys, belts, springs and insulating tape (of course)Hobbed bolts?Hot ends?Motors?Z probe servo?
If you have stock MakerFarm-shipped RAMPS electronics, you might also need

A4988 driver boardRRD Fan extender
to control the extra motor and print cooling fan.

Everything (except the RAMPS electronics) can be sourced from a combination of MrMetric, MakerFarm, Pololu, McMaster Carr, HobbyKing, Harbor Freight and a couple of Chinese eBay sellers for around $253, including shipping to the US (2-3 weeks).  I'll upload a shopping list soon.

I've been investigating volume pricing, and I could probably offer an all-inclusive kit (everything except the RAMPS electronics) shipped Priority Mail in the US for a little less (maybe $230, depending on sourcing).

How much demand would there be for such a kit, or for a cheaper kit without the hot ends and motors?

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## eghm

Thank-you for sharing your work, looks awesome, I'm in process of printing the parts.

Screws, bearings, and springs are my biggest concern.  Maybe motors too.  I've already got the hobbed bolts, servo, and hot ends.

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## Stigern

I'm amazed, could I ask what software you're using for designing such a awsome work of art?

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## clough42

> I'm amazed, could I ask what software you're using for designing such a awsome work of art?


This particular design was done in SolidWorks.  I'm glad you like it.

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## OldSourKraut

I have already started printing and sourcing parts for this project. I'm truly excited to get started on it. I have been using your hexagon cooling shroud and z-probe servo mount and am very impressed with the solid design. My question is have you had any issues with the 3cfm fan cooling both hotends on extended prints? It has been doing a good job on my single hexagon hot end, but I would be doubling the heat in that area.
Also how critical is the spring tension used on this build? I have a hardware store across the street with a good selection and I'm hoping I could bring my completed extruder over there and find something that would work.

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## clough42

> I have already started printing and sourcing parts for this project. I'm truly excited to get started on it. I have been using your hexagon cooling shroud and z-probe servo mount and am very impressed with the solid design. My question is have you had any issues with the 3cfm fan cooling both hotends on extended prints? It has been doing a good job on my single hexagon hot end, but I would be doubling the heat in that area.
> Also how critical is the spring tension used on this build? I have a hardware store across the street with a good selection and I'm hoping I could bring my completed extruder over there and find something that would work.


Thanks.

I haven't had any trouble with the 25mm hexagon cooling fan so far.  The shroud is designed to concentrate the airflow around the heat sink fins.  I've run a couple of 8-hour prints with no issues--one with $10 Sunon maglev 3CFM fan (which I highly recommend) and one with the 25mm fan shipped with the Hexagon.  The cooling fins get warm, but I can easily hold a finger on them.  Printing with both hot ends at 250C over a 110C bed, the heat sinks get up to around 45C, with no jams.

For the springs, I recommend 1Kgf per spring as a starting point.  I found some springs in a Harbor Freight spring assortment that I cut in half and bent new hooks.  These grip the MakerFarm ABS very well with the MakerFarm bolts.  I.e. they can transfer more torque than the motors can deliver.  I haven't sourced anything specific yet.

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## OldSourKraut

Good to hear, I'm also using the Sunon maglev 3CFM fan and those are the Temps I'm printing at and about the same temps i'm seeing on the heat sink fins for my single extruder. 

One mod I did make to the single hexagon shroud was to remove the plastic at the bottom between the hot end and cooling fins and replace it with a piece of brass that  is cut to go around the hot end and wrap up the sides, this is attached with a couple of m2 bolts and nuts. This stays cool and avoids the melting plastic issue. Looks like I'll be doing the same to the double shroud as well.

Thanks for all the time and effort you have put into this project.

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## TechMasterJoe

> There has been a fair amount of interest in a hardware kit, so I've been investigating pricing.
> 
> What would you want in a hardware kit for the extruder?
> 
> Screws, bearings, pulleys, belts, springs and insulating tape (of course)Hobbed bolts?Hot ends?Motors?Z probe servo? 
> If you have stock MakerFarm-shipped RAMPS electronics, you might also need
> 
> A4988 driver boardRRD Fan extender 
> to control the extra motor and print cooling fan.
> ...


What would you want in a hardware kit for the extruder? answers 

Screws, bearings, pulleys, belts, springs and insulating tape (of course) = YES to all of thatHobbed bolts?  =  YESHot ends? = NO but if talks with Colin go well, having an option to buy 1 or 2 heads might be coolMotors?  = Maybe but not really right off the batZ probe servo? = maybe but we can do that for nowFans? = Yes 


If you have stock MakerFarm-shipped RAMPS electronics, you might also need

A4988 driver boardRRD Fan extender 
to control the extra motor and print cooling fan.

if talks with colin work out hve it as an option like a drop down list check boxes,
with info on the page about whats parts are need for witch models.

most people with 3dprinters (except makerbot owners) have good Google skills and can source the bigger stuff.

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## clough42

> One mod I did make to the single hexagon shroud was to remove the plastic at the bottom between the hot end and cooling fins and replace it with a piece of brass that  is cut to go around the hot end and wrap up the sides, this is attached with a couple of m2 bolts and nuts. This stays cool and avoids the melting plastic issue. Looks like I'll be doing the same to the double shroud as well.
> 
> Thanks for all the time and effort you have put into this project.


You're welcome.

The brass is a good idea.  I have been making insulators out of fiberglass tape and Kapton and they work pretty well.  The bottom of the shroud gets smooth and shiny, but it stays put.

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## clough42

> What would you want in a hardware kit for the extruder? answers 
> 
> Screws, bearings, pulleys, belts, springs and insulating tape (of course) = YES to all of thatHobbed bolts?  =  YESHot ends? = NO but if talks with Colin go well, having an option to buy 1 or 2 heads might be coolMotors?  = Maybe but not really right off the batZ probe servo? = maybe but we can do that for nowFans? = Yes
> 
> <snip>
> 
> if talks with colin work out hve it as an option like a drop down list check boxes,
> with info on the page about whats parts are need for witch models.
> 
> most people with 3dprinters (except makerbot owners) have good Google skills and can source the bigger stuff.


Thanks.  I think the small hardware is the real killer because you have to order so many small quantities of various bits from all over.

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## TechMasterJoe

> Thanks.  I think the small hardware is the real killer because you have to order so many small quantities of various bits from all over.


I have a McFadden-dale hardware less then 300 yards from my front door so I don't really need a kit anyone that's been to one knows just how much that place rocks. Tack that on to the fact McMaster Carr's warehouse is 1.4 miles away from my shop. I'm set I can get anything fast. If you need any special part's made for a design pm me I own a machine shop both a real shop and one at home with 26 cnc's in all.

After I get the 12" i3v I might ask Colin if he wants  to make a metal ver or if he is OK with me selling a metal frame upgrade I got a OMAX 80X water jet that I don't really use much

I will be producing hotends a little bit like the hexagon with electropolished nozzles soon..running small batch at my costs I think, I can make them for under 20$ my cost so a retail around 30$ complete. 
I plan on making the nozzle and the heat break one solid piece of stainless steel and including 4 of them in 3 sizes  (.3 for 1.75, .4 for 1.75, .4 for 3.0, .5 for 3.0) by making it a single piece the hotend will work with both 1.75 and 3.0 by just changing the heat brake/nozzle

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## clough42

Okay...I just placed orders for parts.

I'll be offering a hardware kit with the screws, nuts, washers, pulleys, belts, bearings, springs and fiberglass for the insulator.  It will take a couple of weeks for everything to arrive, and I'll be able to post final pricing.  Right now, it's looking like it'll be somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 shipped in the US.

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## TopJimmyCooks

I'm sorry  I missed the hardware kit.  I have been printing parts and accumulating stuff over the last few weeks and I just ordered the few remaining bolts from Mr. metric.  I've got HIPS and PVA coming to use to try dissolvable support.  I'm looking forward to running this.  Thanks for the hard work on the design.  Looking at the printed parts, it's intriguing how tiny (itty bitty) everything is.  I actually double checked once to make sure I hadn't mistakenly applied scaling during slicing of the idler blocks.

I hate it when people ask for updates on something that just came out - However, something to consider for the future:  A lot of the flexible and exotic filament users are recommending PTFE liners in the extruders.  In the extruder block you have a longer filament pathway than many greg's type designs.  Doing a version with a wider filament pathway and a little retainer shelf at the bottom for that might be something to look at later.  If it's found to be needed.   I don't know if any the flexible filaments can print into useful parts like washers, light duty valve seats, gaskets, grommets, etc.  But if they do I will be using them.

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## TopJimmyCooks

Also, for those who didn't notice in the pics - Hexagons have started shipping with a molded silicone insulating jacket for the heater blocks which is a very nice feature that hasn't shown up on other hotends so far.

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## kd7eir

> Okay...I just placed orders for parts.
> 
> I'll be offering a hardware kit with the screws, nuts, washers, pulleys, belts, bearings, springs and fiberglass for the insulator.  It will take a couple of weeks for everything to arrive, and I'll be able to post final pricing.  Right now, it's looking like it'll be somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 shipped in the US.


You can count me in for one.

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## clough42

> I hate it when people ask for updates on something that just came out - However, something to consider for the future:  A lot of the flexible and exotic filament users are recommending PTFE liners in the extruders.  In the extruder block you have a longer filament pathway than many greg's type designs.  Doing a version with a wider filament pathway and a little retainer shelf at the bottom for that might be something to look at later.  If it's found to be needed.   I don't know if any the flexible filaments can print into useful parts like washers, light duty valve seats, gaskets, grommets, etc.  But if they do I will be using them.


Don't worry.  It's just a part of the development process.  Every design undergoes (or should undergo) iteration after first contact with users.  I'm already planning on doing a flexible filament version with PTFE liners and perhaps a simplified version with just the extruder for people who want to try other hot ends or don't want to deal with all the options.

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## clough42

> Also, for those who didn't notice in the pics - Hexagons have started shipping with a molded silicone insulating jacket for the heater blocks which is a very nice feature that hasn't shown up on other hotends so far.


Yeah--and they also come with both 40mm and 25mm fans now.  The insulator is nice, once it stops stinking.  My first 8-hour print at 250C was pretty smelly.  After that, I don't notice it any more.

Does anyone know what the insulator is made from and what temperatures are safe?

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## TechMasterJoe

you can count me in for one just to help support the project.
Plus i had only planed to print the single hotend.
now i think i will setup dual. i have never really seen a real
 reason outside of things like PVA support or printing 2 objects in two separate colors 
yet i can't see a reason to care i have never really cared about color as much as print quality 
and dual heads always seams to lead to problems with the ones at the school 
(i took one nozzle off to fix a 2nd nozzle object crash at high Z on the schools Airwolf HDX2)


Is it just me or is *reprapdiscount*.com down completely  today

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## JRDM

Do you have a weight of that whole setup? I designed a belted dual extruder earlier this fall and wanted to do NEMA 14s, but a slim NEMA 17 had better torque and lower weight than all the NEMA 14s that I could find. I can still easily alter it to support 14s though.

I do think going with a belt drive is a winner.

Also: I found SDP/SI to be a handy source for belts & pulleys.

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## TechMasterJoe

> Yeah, but I've typically found cyber Monday to be iffy as far as internet performance.  Today's actually been better than usual.


Ya I can see that a lot of sites are slow newegg is crazy slow right now. I got a new gaming laptop just now a painful 1673$ but I wanted 32gb of ram and a good gpu because I'm in both solidworks and master-cam x8 all day.. I was going to order a new hexagon 3mm and nozzles guess it's got to wait lol

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## RobH2

> Do you have a weight of that whole setup?


As I was building this and testing it with 'clough42' I was interested in the weight also. I weighed my standard Wade's extruder (Magma hot end) and it was 607 grams. The dual hexagon weighed 701 grams. Not bad to add less then 100 grams to get a dual rig. 

One nice side effect I've found is that if I'm careful, I can swap filaments out on the head that's not printing (if I'm not doing a dual head print) and save time. I'm printing with PLA now on my left head and I just switched out the ABS on the right head to nylon without messing up my print. That's nice.

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## jprochnow

Let's see a video of this thing printing! I'm looking forward to a dual extruder!

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## AbuMaia

Do you have to really ramp up the retraction distance in order to avoid oozing when printing with the other hotend? Pull the filament completely out of the melt zone?

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## RobH2

I haven't gotten to the point of tweaking oozing yet. That will come up soon. I'll also get some video sometime soon. That's a good request. 

I've printed PLA and ABS so far. Both printed beautifully. I haven't had one jam yet. In fact, I was cleaning a head and at the bottom you can see that the melt zone is perfectly aligned to the Hotend height. So no melting is occurring where it should not that might cause a jam. 

I'm printing Ninjaflex right now and it's working well, the filament path is sufficiently encompassing well such that the filament can't bend and snake out anywhere. I didn't make any modifications to 'clough42's' original design to accommodate Ninjaflex. I'll be testing Bridge Nylon and PET+ in the next few days. 

DualHexagon_HeatZone.jpg Ninjaflex_01.jpg

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## clough42

> Do you have to really ramp up the retraction distance in order to avoid oozing when printing with the other hotend? Pull the filament completely out of the melt zone?


I'm currently retracting 10mm when switching hotends.  This is just a setting in slic3r, and it seems to work pretty well.

The other key to preventing oozing is to tune the temperatures.  I'm finding that different colors of filament have different melt profiles.  I can get nearly ooze-free performance from black at 240C, but I've got the orange down to 220C, and it's still oozing more than the black.

I have confirmed the temperatures with a thermocouple, and the temperatures are correct (or at least responding the same).  I'm reading 9 degrees cooler than the reported temperature with the thermocouple in contact with the top of the heat block.  The thermistor and thermocouple temperatuers track together up to about 150C, where they diverge, and up in the 250C range, I see the 9 degree difference.  It could just be a thermal gradient in the block, or it could be a small error.

I'm using the default Marlin Type 1 tables.

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## clough42

> I'm printing Ninjaflex right now and it's working well, the filament path is sufficiently encompassing well such that the filament can't bend and snake out anywhere. I didn't make any modifications to 'clough42's' original design to accommodate Ninjaflex.


Really?  Ninjaflex?  That's awesome.  I thought I was going to have to do some more work to get that one working.  The filament is unsupported below the bolt for about 4mm.  Maybe with 1.75mm filament, it will need more support.

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## RobH2

Yep, Ninjaflex printed really well. No issues of any kind. That photo above was the first test of it and was printed at 220C. Yea, I'm guessing 1.75 filament won't be so lucky.

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## clough42

> Let's see a video of this thing printing! I'm looking forward to a dual extruder!


This is a live stream of a test print.  It should be running for the next eight hours.  Unless it fails utterly.   :Smile:   After that, I'll come back and put in a better link and upload a time-lapse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAGA5TIkg9w

I'm printing this:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:11687

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## clough42

> This is a live stream of a test print.


You can see the home/autolevel/priming sequence starting at 06:30.  I'm using Roxy's enhanced G29 code.

Here's the startup sequence:

Heat the bedStart heating the nozzlesHome and probe for autolevel (G28/G29)Park at Z=0 with both nozzles off the glassWait for both nozzles to reach temperaturePrime the left nozzle wipe it onto the glassPrime the right, retract it slightly and wipe it onto the glassPrint alternating loops (Slic3r)Print

Slic3r prints the outside ring with the left nozzle first; that's why I retract the right nozzle slightly.  This keeps it from dribbling while the left nozzle prints loops.  After that, Slic3r automatically handles the retracts.

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## RobH2

Excellent. What's your "Live" setup? I think I should do one too soon.

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## JRDM

> As I was building this and testing it with 'clough42' I was interested in the weight also. I weighed my standard Wade's extruder (Magma hot end) and it was 607 grams. The dual hexagon weighed 701 grams. Not bad to add less then 100 grams to get a dual rig. 
> 
> One nice side effect I've found is that if I'm careful, I can swap filaments out on the head that's not printing (if I'm not doing a dual head print) and save time. I'm printing with PLA now on my left head and I just switched out the ABS on the right head to nylon without messing up my print. That's nice.


OK. I had managed to build a working 600g duallie, but with J-Heads. I have lighter motors to try to reach 500g but I've been just getting my practice and testing in before I built another set. I planned on my second build to have Hexagons and the lighter motors.

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## JRDM

My dual belt-driven design:
https://www.youmagine.com/designs/jd...-dual-extruder
600g version shown

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## beerdart

Love the design thanks for sharing.

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## clough42

> Excellent. What's your "Live" setup? I think I should do one too soon.


Nothing fancy.  Just a webcam and a YouTube live event.  https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2474026

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## clough42

Here's a time-lapse video of the link cup printing.

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## lemming

Hi

Could you put me down for a hardware kit too?

Will need shipping to Australia...

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## clough42

> Hi
> 
> Could you put me down for a hardware kit too?
> 
> Will need shipping to Australia...


No problem.  I'll post back here when they're ready.

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## beerdart

clough42 Do you have a version for the NEMA 17 motors? as we already have them from our failed direct drive dual experiment. If not it should be easy for us to modify.. 
Thanks

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## bobe99

Nice design!

I was wondering on the physical connection and whatever Marlin changes are necessary.

In Marlin, my guess is that we need change MOTHERBOARD from 33 to 34. 

That translates to the following physical connections on the Ramps 1.4 board:

D10 = Hot End #0 (12v)D09 = Hot End #1 (12v)D08 = Heated Bed (12v)D11 = Servo (5v)D04 = PLA Fan (12v)

My questions (assuming the above is correct):
What Fan Expander are you using? I see one from Makerfarm which states it exposes D4/D5 and one from Geetech which exposes D6/D11.Regardless, how is the servo connected? The Geetech usurps all of the servo pins and only directly (via pin headers) exposes the 4 fan pins (D4/D5 or D6/D11) and 2 pins for an external voltage source. I cannot find any info on the Makerfarm version (other than the description supplied on the Markerfarm website), but the Geetech has schematics that clearly show a common MOSFET gate voltage. So my question is how does this thing power both the 5v servo and the 12v fan though either of these gizmos? I mean, how does either of these adapters handle both a 5v servo and 12v fan?Can you supply all of the Marlin changes you have made?  E.G. Any changes in pins.h? Any changes to support the belt systems?

I'm really skeptical of the Makerfarm fan expander (just due to the lack of documentation, no photo of the other side of the board and the off-hand comment implying it does not provide a buffer between the ramps and fans).

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## TechMasterJoe

I have been thinking of adding code to merlin to move Y and pulse an output pin at a settable Z interval like every 1mm for clean timelapses  what do you guys think..

 Ramps 1.4 has servo headers servo 1 is also tied to D11 I think not check in a long time . All output pins from the avr are 5v that's why it's best to use mosfet and stuff rated for use with logic voltage..at 5v you can get away without but at 3.3 or 1.8v you must them or switchthem off high rail using a darlington pair 
If you want a custom fan expansion board just ask
Side note testing halleffect endstop modied with 10 turn pot and ref vreg and filtering works amazing so far and you can hide it  1/4 turn = .008mm Z

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## bobe99

Thanks TechMasterJoe. So to connect the servo all I need do is run a 5v/GND pair from any source (e.g. the ramps 5v pin or a 5v wart if the servo draws too much power, assuring a common GND inthe latter case) and simply connect the D11 signal from the ramps (or fan adapter) to the servo. Easy. The fan needs some type of transistor; the Geetech looks like it has a dual power mosfet on it to do the job, but it would also be a simple matter to breadboard up a mosfet and a couple resistors for the job. One thing I noticed about the Geetech was that there isn't any diode to handle the negative spike voltage from the fan when is switched off. Should there be?

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## RobH2

> You can see the home/autolevel/priming sequence starting at 06:30.  I'm using Roxy's enhanced G29 code.
> 
> Here's the startup sequence:
> 
> Heat the bed...........Print


Do you mind sharing all of that code. I'm using Roxy's Enhanced 29 too but I'd like to try the "parks" and "wipes", etc.

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## razer1141

> I have a McFadden-dale hardware less then 300 yards from my front door so I don't really need a kit anyone that's been to one knows just how much that place rocks. Tack that on to the fact McMaster Carr's warehouse is 1.4 miles away from my shop. I'm set I can get anything fast. If you need any special part's made for a design pm me I own a machine shop both a real shop and one at home with 26 cnc's in all.
> 
> After I get the 12" i3v I might ask Colin if he wants  to make a metal ver or if he is OK with me selling a metal frame upgrade I got a OMAX 80X water jet that I don't really use much
> 
> I will be producing hotends a little bit like the hexagon with electropolished nozzles soon..running small batch at my costs I think, I can make them for under 20$ my cost so a retail around 30$ complete. 
> I plan on making the nozzle and the heat break one solid piece of stainless steel and including 4 of them in 3 sizes  (.3 for 1.75, .4 for 1.75, .4 for 3.0, .5 for 3.0) by making it a single piece the hotend will work with both 1.75 and 3.0 by just changing the heat brake/nozzle


I don't mean to take the thread off topic, but I just placed an order for my 12" i3v last week and would definitely be interested in a metal/acrylic frame upgrade.

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## clough42

> Nice design!
> 
> I was wondering on the physical connection and whatever Marlin changes are necessary.
> 
> In Marlin, my guess is that we need change MOTHERBOARD from 33 to 34. 
> 
> That translates to the following physical connections on the Ramps 1.4 board:
> 
> D10 = Hot End #0 (12v)D09 = Hot End #1 (12v)D08 = Heated Bed (12v)D11 = Servo (5v)D04 = PLA Fan (12v)
> ...


Yes.  The connections are all correct.  I'm using the MakerFarm fan extender, which is manufactured by RepRapDiscount.  It has a dual buffer driver and a jumper to provide 12v power.  It has two fan channels, on D4 and D5, but it covers all four servo pins.  I soldered a header with three pins to the D11 pins on the top of the fan extender, and that's where I plug in the servo.  The only connections on the board are D4/D5, so the other two are available--just covered.  It would be awesome of they used a wire wrap socket so the pins extended out the top for this purpose.

I didn't make any changes to the firmware.  I can check my local repo and provide my config files later tonight.  I'll also upload my custom GCODE.  I don't have access to that machine right now.

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## clough42

Here's a link to the RRD fan extender, which I believe is the one MakerFarm sells:  http://www.reprapdiscount.com/electr...-extender.html

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## clough42

I have all the parts for the hardware kits ordered and in transit.  Hopefully, I'll be ready to ship later this month.

Of course, US customs clearance can be sketchy this time of year.

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## RobH2

Thanks for this design 'clough42.' This has changed my life as much as autoleveling did. Let me tell you, if you've never printed dissolving support, it's the "BOMB." Wow. 

I print small and complex parts frequently and spend hours digging out support material and using a dremel to clean them up. I even ordered this tiny hobby sander that has a sanding foot that's 15mm square and uses adhesive sandpaper pads to sand support imperfections down in skinny places. I just printed a test that had a long overhang of a plane that was 3mm from the one below it. It would have been really hard to dig that support material out. I dissolved it out in a cup of hot water in about 30 minutes.

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## TechMasterJoe

you guys are ok with soldering i can remake the board to supply both 2 servos and 2 fans
i will take care of the SMD soldering and include wire-wrap and reg headers..
just an offer
i must tell you that i order PCB's from OSHpark so they are a deep purple PCB..
they make amazing PCB's for low cost compared to all the others.

i don't know what filament you guys use but i been using 
toybuilders prototype supply stuff and been very happy. print so clean (get it on amazon)
i store my filament under 15-20in of vacuum
for moisture free filament. and no i have never had a problem with a new roll
but old rolls after sitting awhile pop a lot tell i put them under a vacuum overnight

so if anyone wants a dual fan + dual servo board with  beefier mosfet drivers for fans and servo power switching (no power no twitch it bugs me) reply with a yes

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## AbuMaia

Hmm, that RRD fan extender seems to be plugged into the same pins I use to run my RAMPS fan. How many pins I'm currently using are going to be eaten up by this thing?

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## rhonal89

Do you think this will work for rambo board for makerfarm 12 i3v. Using your setup.

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## clough42

> Hmm, that RRD fan extender seems to be plugged into the same pins I use to run my RAMPS fan. How many pins I'm currently using are going to be eaten up by this thing?


If you're talking about the 12v output on the RAMPS board, then yes.  The fan extender uses these pins for power.  I just attach my RAMPS fan to the 12V input.  I just strip the wires and put them in with the power supply wires and screw down the terminals.

The RRD fan extender doesn't seem like a very elegant design.  A 12V passthru and pins on top for a couple of servos would have made it a lot friendlier.

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## clough42

> Do you think this will work for rambo board for makerfarm 12 i3v. Using your setup.


It should work fine, though the Configuration.h might be a little different.

RAMBO has extra MOSFET PWM circuits, so you don't need a fan extender, but I don't think it has servo connectors, so you have to make a cable or at least split the pins of the servo connector up and hook them to different pins on the board.  I don't have one, so I haven't attempted it.

----------


## clough42

I just created a fork and branch of Marlin with my firmware changes:  https://github.com/clough42/Marlin/t...v_double_bitty

This is a fork of Beckdac's fork of Marlin, which contains Roxy's auto-bed-leveling code.

It's a work in progress, so you should expect changes.

I only modified two files:
Configuration.h:  https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cl...onfiguration.hConfiguration_adv.h:  https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cl...guration_adv.h

You will likely need to tweak the servo endpoints and the Z probe offset.

Right now, I'm doing the extruder offsets in Slic3r, so it isn't set up in Marlin.  RobH2 has played more with the Marlin side and may have some input here.

----------


## clough42

Here's my current custom Start G-Code:


```
; 8" i3v Itty Bitty Double Extruder
M42 P5 S255 ; light on
M190 S[first_layer_bed_temperature] ; wait for bed to heat up
M104 S[first_layer_temperature_0] T0 ; start heating T0
M104 S[first_layer_temperature_1] T1 ; start heating T1
G1 Z5 F50 ; lift nozzle
G28 ; home X and Y axes
G29 ; auto bed level
G1 X0 F8000 ; move to side
G1 Y210 F8000 ; move off front
G1 Z0 ; Level for wipe
M109 S[first_layer_temperature_0] T0 ; wait for heat
M109 S[first_layer_temperature_1] T1 ; wait for heat
G90 ; absolute
T0 ; extruder 0
G92 E0
G1 E12 F50 ; extrude
G1 Y0 F8000 ; wipe
T1 ; extruder 1
G92 E0 ; reset extrude
G1 E12 F50 ; extrude
G1 E9 F50; retract
G1 X15 F8000 ; wipe
```

And my end G-Code:


```
M104 S0 T0 ; heat off T0
M104 S0 T1 ; heat off T1
G28 X0 ; home X axis
G28 Y0 ; home Y axis
M84 ; disable motors
M42 P5 S0 ; light off
M190 S0 ; wait for bed temperature to be reached
```

I have LED illumination attached to the second port of my RRD fan extender.

----------


## clough42

I added reference links to the first page of this thread, and I'll continue to maintain summary info there.

----------


## clough42

> you guys are ok with soldering i can remake the board to supply both 2 servos and 2 fans
> i will take care of the SMD soldering and include wire-wrap and reg headers..
> just an offer
> i must tell you that i order PCB's from OSHpark so they are a deep purple PCB..
> they make amazing PCB's for low cost compared to all the others.
> 
> i don't know what filament you guys use but i been using 
> toybuilders prototype supply stuff and been very happy. print so clean (get it on amazon)
> i store my filament under 15-20in of vacuum
> ...


Agreed OSH Park is fully awesome.

Not sure what the issue is with the servo twitching.  I set up the servo deactivation delay, so it shuts down and doesn't twitch.

You seem to be itching for a project, though.  As long as you're looking at power, I think the community could use a power distribution board.  I want a board with an ATX power supply connector and outputs for the RAMPS power inputs.  I'd like a three pin jumper to the power header to provide 5v to the servos, 5vsb to vcc (no D1) and PS enable to allow switching power on and off with gcode.  I want a few 12V pins for fans and lights and a 5vsb header (maybe USB?) to power a raspberry pi.  Put in as many PWM mosfets as you want.  Could even go crazy and add a heat bed relay.

----------


## printbus

> You seem to be itching for a project, though.  As long as you're looking at power, I think the community could use a power distribution board.  I want a board with an ATX power supply connector and outputs for the RAMPS power inputs.  I'd like a three pin jumper to the power header to provide 5v to the servos, 5vsb to vcc (no D1) and PS enable to allow switching power on and off with gcode.  I want a few 12V pins for fans and lights and a 5vsb header (maybe USB?) to power a raspberry pi.  Put in as many PWM mosfets as you want.  Could even go crazy and add a heat bed relay.


Consideration should be given to providing a dedicated 5v regulator on this so the printer isn't dependent on USB power being there. The regulator on the MEGA2560 can handle itself and the smart panel, but likely not a servo, a Pi, or next month's great idea if it needs 5V.

----------


## TechMasterJoe

> Agreed OSH Park is fully awesome.
> 
> Not sure what the issue is with the servo twitching.  I set up the servo deactivation delay, so it shuts down and doesn't twitch.
> 
> You seem to be itching for a project, though.  As long as you're looking at power, I think the community could use a power distribution board.  I want a board with an ATX power supply connector and outputs for the RAMPS power inputs.  I'd like a three pin jumper to the power header to provide 5v to the servos, 5vsb to vcc (no D1) and PS enable to allow switching power on and off with gcode.  I want a few 12V pins for fans and lights and a 5vsb header (maybe USB?) to power a raspberry pi.  Put in as many PWM mosfets as you want.  Could even go crazy and add a heat bed relay.


Project Started 
this HexFet will take care of bed problems (i have a full reel qty 500)
http://www.newark.com/international-...-7p/dp/28W1167
 using a real Mosfet driver (high current opamp is all they are) so it's really doing it's job
maybe a fan driver ?? 

so the mega can sip power off the 5Vsb line witch most power supply's only have about an Amp on (this is Standby power)
we only want the display and the Mega on the 5Vsb line so all other 5V items need to be isolated and put on a main 5v rail
some newer PSU's have more power on 5Vsb for charging usb things when the pc is off but this is new to this years rev of the ATX IEEE standards

whats in eagle now
ATX24 pin PLUS 8Pin CPU (12V)
4 boosted heater driver circuits each with an aprox 40amps switching capacity  (RDS on + board = 0.0017ohm)Mosfet rated for 260amps ! (i have tested on a 1in by 3in board solo to 100amps static load board settled at 40c, 46c Mosfet)
2 extra switching circuits each safe to apx 10amps use for just about anything 
PS_ON check (Plan this with my setup from day one)
5Vsb Check
4USB ports 2 tied to 5Vsb 2 tied to 5v rail (Pi still has power when printer is asleep)
keep in mind ratings mean nothing if using a small PSU


*so a few questions* before i send this out
do you want more high output Fan, lights, servo,
what type of connections do you like keep in mind the amperage...



note:
all Mosfets used are rated to switch at up to 1Mhz (well over the switching feq of any atmega without bit banging)




> Consideration should be given to providing a dedicated 5v regulator on this so the printer isn't dependent on USB power being there. The regulator on the MEGA2560 can handle itself and the smart panel, but likely not a servo, a Pi, or next month's great idea if it needs 5V.


i think the first part answerer you. most PC ATX PSU's have 10+ amps at 5V

----------


## printbus

The power board discussion likely warrants it's own thread.  If this is for the community, consider posting a schematic and proposed layout for review.  




> i think the first part answerer you. most PC ATX PSU's have 10+ amps at 5V


 Of course, not everyone will want to use an ATX supply.

----------


## clough42

> The power board discussion likely warrants it's own thread.  If this is for the community, consider posting a schematic and proposed layout for review.  
> 
>  Of course, not everyone will want to use an ATX supply.


Agreed.  I derailed my own thread.

Back to the Itty Bitty Double Extruder:  Has anyone besides RobH2 gotten this up and running yet?  Any problems printing any of the parts?

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

I'm thinking about switching to ATX since so many accessories need 5V now.  I don't like that it doesn't fit as well on the frame of the printer,  and they are a lot more expensive.  Especially if you spring for one with the nice modular cabling.   In the meantime I'm going to try running an RC Battery eliminator if I pick up anything else that needs 5V.  

I'm considering trying a heated enclosure, because i need it for fume extraction at a minimum.  I get headaches if I'm near the printer when it's going. If I do that it will be a good excuse to move the meanwell 12V supply to that and get something new for the printer.

----------


## bobe99

> I just created a fork and branch of Marlin with my firmware changes:  https://github.com/clough42/Marlin/t...v_double_bitty
> 
> This is a fork of Beckdac's fork of Marlin, which contains Roxy's auto-bed-leveling code.
> 
> It's a work in progress, so you should expect changes.
> 
> I only modified two files:
> Configuration.h:  https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cl...onfiguration.hConfiguration_adv.h:  https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cl...guration_adv.h 
> 
> ...



The changes I see which are specific the dual extruder (ABL support ignored) are in Configuration.h:
#define MOTHERBOARD 34
#define EXTRUDERS 2
#define TEMP_SENSOR_0 1
#define TEMP_SENSOR_1 1
#define HEATER_0_MAXTEMP 280
#define HEATER_1_MAXTEMP 280
#define DEFAULT_AXIS_STEPS_PER_UNIT   {80, 80, 4000, *644.2*}

I saw a change in Configuration_adv.h, but I'm not sure if it's extruder related (?):
 #define DEFAULT_STEPPER_DEACTIVE_TIME 150    // Makerfarm default was 60

----------


## Stuartknight1

I'd definitely be interested in a full kit at some point, but at the moment I'm still getting to grips with my basic 10" i3V

----------


## AbuMaia

> I saw a change in Configuration_adv.h, but I'm not sure if it's extruder related (?):
>  #define DEFAULT_STEPPER_DEACTIVE_TIME 150    // Makerfarm default was 60


That's to keep the X and Y steppers from deactivating during a G28 after a tall print. It can take the Z axis more than a minute to home, and if any of the steppers deactivate, that stepper's "home" info is lost, and a subsequent G29 Auto Bed Leveling will fail.

----------


## TechMasterJoe

> That's to keep the X and Y steppers from deactivating during a G28 after a tall print. It can take the Z axis more than a minute to home, and if any of the steppers deactivate, that stepper's "home" info is lost, and a subsequent G29 Auto Bed Leveling will fail.


so when you get setup max your Z hit home z and a stop watch then set DEFAULT_STEPPER_DEACTIVE_TIME 
to the the stop watch + say 15 to 30 sec just to be safe 
sounds like a good idea 
i plan on doing something like this http://youtu.be/jguPioUpYtc?list=UU9...nutKg06BitOByg
as well

waiting on http://www.stamps.com/shipstatus/sub...99561698334613 (extra hexagon 1.75mm hotend)
plus belts from mcmaster

on a side note (as posted on thingiverse)
I'm using a custom built SMPS yes designed and built by me a long time ago (about 6 years now)
for more then a few reasons witch i wont get in to mostly because i have it and i can run it at just about any voltage i want

----------


## AbuMaia

> so when you get setup max your Z hit home z and a stop watch then set DEFAULT_STEPPER_DEACTIVE_TIME 
> to the the stop watch + say 15 to 30 sec just to be safe 
> sounds like a good idea


That's exactly what I did.  :Smile:

----------


## printbus

> ...It can take the Z axis more than a minute to home...


I think the numbers are far worse than that. The stock HOMING_FEEDRATE is set to 50 mm/minute, so an 8-inch printer will take four minutes to home full scale 200mm in Z, up to six minutes for 300mm on the 12-inch. I've previously doubled the HOMING_FEEDRATE to 100mm/min, and just timed full-scale Z home to still take 2 minutes 5 seconds on my 8-inch printer to validate the data.  I've tested higher Z feed rates, but I found my Z-motors get pretty skippy at just over Z travel rates of about 2.5 mm/sec.  I've left the DEFAULT_MAX_FEEDRATE for Z at 2 mm/sec in order to ensure margin. I could probably get by with a Z HOMING_RATE of 120mm/min to match the 2mm/sec max feedrate.  

Yes, doubling the HOMING_FEEDRATE also doubles the rate used where the Z motors are moving slower for the more accurate part of the homing. I haven't seen any issues with this on my non-ABL printer.  If I had, it wouldn't be hard to refactor the firmware ratio for the slower part of the movement. Making adjustments in ABL firmware would be a bit more complicated since the HOMING_FEEDRATE factors into a lot more movements for ABL.  

I'm starting to think that especially the larger printers are screaming for a retrofit of 8mm ACME lead screws instead of the M5 threaded rods.  At 2mm pitch vs 0.8mm pitch for M5 rods, the Z feed rate should be able to go up by a factor of 2.5 with the ACME screws.

Apologies to clough42 for continuing the sidebar discussion.

----------


## lemming

Hi

I'm guessing the gears should be printed in PLA.

Should the rest be done in ABS or PLA

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

Generally anything near the hotend should be ABS rather than PLA.  So the fan shroud, x carriage plate, main block and the double groove mount plate should be run in filament able to withstand higher temps.  I printed the rest in PLA.

----------


## lemming

> Generally anything near the hotend should be ABS rather than PLA.  So the fan shroud, x carriage plate, main block and the double groove mount plate should be run in filament able to withstand higher temps.  I printed the rest in PLA.


Thanks for the info

----------


## bobe99

Clough42, what is your recommendation for plastic: PLA, ABS or a mix? 

RobH2, what did you use to print?

----------


## bobe99

> This has changed my life as much as autoleveling did. Let me tell you, if you've never printed dissolving support, it's the "BOMB." Wow.


This seems like a really neat thing to try (for me, more useful than using 2 colors ;-). Did you follow some online guide to get started (or did it all just come naturally ;-). If you have any links, I'd love to read up on how to do this end-to-end.

----------


## bobe99

Are these the correct timing belts?  http://www.robotdigg.com/product/233...dless-GT2-Belt

----------


## TechMasterJoe

> Are these the correct timing belts?  http://www.robotdigg.com/product/233...dless-GT2-Belt


yes that will work

----------


## clough42

> Clough42, what is your recommendation for plastic: PLA, ABS or a mix? 
> 
> RobH2, what did you use to print?


I print all of the parts using ABS.  You'll want the higher glass temperature near the hot end, and ABS fares much better when you have friction, like in the feed channel.  PLA trends to stick and gall.

----------


## clough42

> Are these the correct timing belts?  http://www.robotdigg.com/product/233...dless-GT2-Belt


Yes.  200-2GT (6mm).  You can get them for less than $4 each shipped on eBay.  I'll be curious what RobotDigg charges you to ship a small order.

----------


## AbuMaia

clough42, would this work in place of the fiberglass? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I5093KU

----------


## kd7eir

> Yes.  200-2GT (6mm).  You can get them for less than $4 each shipped on eBay.  I'll be curious what RobotDigg charges you to ship a small order.


Regardless of shipping I would avoid this company at all costs. Their "business" model is to collect your personally identifying information, and then REFUSE to even give you a shipping cost. Instead they expect you to email them begging for a shipping quote. This just smells of scam to me.

----------


## clough42

> clough42, would this work in place of the fiberglass? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I5093KU


I'm not familiar with that product, but it looks like it would work.

The stuff I'll be shipping with the kits is a little looser weave, sold by McMaster Carr:  http://www.mcmaster.com/#8817k63/=uwt7yt

----------


## beerdart

> clough42 Do you have a version for the NEMA 17 motors? as we already have them from our failed direct drive dual experiment. If not it should be easy for us to modify.. 
> Thanks


???.......

----------


## clough42

> ???.......


No, I don't have a NEMA 17 version.

It would be possible to design one, but the overall dimensions of the extruder block would have to change to provide clearance between the base and the idlers for the larger motors.  The larger motors would also change the frame clearance and belt lengths.  I haven't looked into it.

----------


## beerdart

Ok thanks.

----------


## TechMasterJoe

hey on a side note anyone want a completed solidworks model for the hexagon hotend.
i was bored and i just got my 2nd one in the mail today..

i had to make a model to i can tool path it at work and spit them out on the little cnc lathe that we never seam to use.

and any clues on how to get the heat break out ? it's the only part i can't seam to get out  even after hitting it with a torch (and yes i took the set screw out)

Attachment 3827

I'm remodeling clough42's Itty Bitty Double Extruder to work with E3D v6 hotends only because i seen a few users that wished more people made E3D add-on's for makerfarm printers

----------


## lemming

Hi All

Have printed the main extruder block. It came out pretty well. 

I assume we're meant to drill through the bottom where the filament comes out to allow it to go into the hot end.

Maybe I should have also printed it with support (or print cooling) as the 2 recessed areas where the hot ends go aren't so flat due to the bridging it had to do.

Has anyone else had a go and printing this yet?

I used 1.75mm ABS at .2mm layer height.

----------


## RobH2

'TechMasterJoe' thanks for the model. Nice.

'lemming' it printed really well for me too. 'clough42' designed it to print without support. Mine came out really well and I don't remember that I had to drill out the bottom. What I did find though was that the inside of the filament path was not very smooth. I took a 1 foot piece of all-thread (1//8") and ran it up and down the channels to polish them out. I went back and forth a lot until the threads had cut a nice smooth channel. I've had no problems printing.

----------


## clough42

> Hi All
> 
> Have printed the main extruder block. It came out pretty well. 
> 
> I assume we're meant to drill through the bottom where the filament comes out to allow it to go into the hot end.
> 
> Maybe I should have also printed it with support (or print cooling) as the 2 recessed areas where the hot ends go aren't so flat due to the bridging it had to do.
> 
> Has anyone else had a go and printing this yet?
> ...


Yes, you need to cut out the support bridging across the bottom of the filament channel.  I usually use an X-Acto knife.  I just insert the tip into the center hole and sweep around the hole to clean it out.  If you have a print cooling fan, enable it when printing bridges, and those strings across the bottom of the channel should tighten up and make a nice, flat platform.  If your printer can't do this, you'll probably need to use support.  Be careful, though.  You don't want to be generating support inside the filament channel.

RobH2 has reported that the inside of the filament channel didn't come out clean for him.  I haven't seen his prints, so I don't know exactly what he's seeing.  The filament channels are octagonal, to try to improve dimensional stability over round holes, and they print cleanly on my printer.  The filament slides through cleanly for me with no cleanup.

----------


## beerdart

Everyone needs one of theses.  

HL_shaviv_picture.jpg

----------


## clough42

> Everyone needs one of theses.  
> 
> HL_shaviv_picture.jpg


Yup.  Got one on my Christmas list.

----------


## AbuMaia

What is it? The picture is too small for me to see it clearly.

----------


## lemming

Thanks for the tips

I cleaned out that area by scraping a large flat end screwdriver in their and now it's pretty flat. 

When I cleaned out the filament hole, I ended up putting a little bevel on it. I hope it won't negatively affect it. 

The filament moves pretty freely through both holes with just a small amount of resistance. Is that fine, or do I need to touch it up with something?

BTW. Given that I'm about to go to the time and expense of implementing dual extrusion, is their any benefit of changing over from 1.75mm to 3mm filament?

Great community - appreciate all of the help

----------


## RobH2

> Yes, you need to cut out the support bridging across the bottom of the filament channel.  I usually use an X-Acto knife.  I just insert the tip into the center hole and sweep around the hole to clean it out.  If you have a print cooling fan, enable it when printing bridges, and those strings across the bottom of the channel should tighten up and make a nice, flat platform.  If your printer can't do this, you'll probably need to use support.  Be careful, though.  You don't want to be generating support inside the filament channel.
> 
> RobH2 has reported that the inside of the filament channel didn't come out clean for him.  I haven't seen his prints, so I don't know exactly what he's seeing.  The filament channels are octagonal, to try to improve dimensional stability over round holes, and they print cleanly on my printer.  The filament slides through cleanly for me with no cleanup.


Yea, maybe it was blobby inside or some other issue. The outside looked beautiful so I expected the inside to be the same. Could be just a one-time malfunction on my end. When I put filament it the first time it just snagged a bit. So, I reemed it with the all-thread and then it was smooth as glass. Who knows. Bottom line, the model 'clough42' built is a very clean file. I'm sure my issue was not related to the model but to the printer.

BTW, what is that red handled thing that we all need?

----------


## beerdart

The red handle thing is as I call it a whirlegig deburr tool. It will shave time off your tasks so you can spend time with the misses.  Lol.

----------


## TechMasterJoe

here is the hotend model
https://grabcad.com/library/hexagon-hotend-1
if anyone wants it

----------


## beerdart

> here is the hotend model
> https://grabcad.com/library/hexagon-hotend-1
> if anyone wants it


Fantastic. Joe thanks for sharing

----------


## kd7eir

> Yes.  200-2GT (6mm).  You can get them for less than $4 each shipped on eBay.  I'll be curious what RobotDigg charges you to ship a small order.


Robotdigg wants $1/belt for shipping - 60! day delivery...

----------


## RobH2

Got it too Joe. Looks great. I created a rough one for major dimensions  to work with Itty Bitty but it's nice to have a full model. Thanks.

----------


## clough42

> What is it? The picture is too small for me to see it clearly.


It's a deburring tool.  Sometimes also called an edge breaker.

http://www.amazon.com/SHAVIV-151-900...deburring+tool

----------


## RobH2

Yep, figured it out and coincidentally, that's exactly what I ordered 3 hours ago.

----------


## TechMasterJoe

http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.p...ll=1#post38812
made a extreme hotbed switching board if anyone is interested..
20$ shipped with 6ft of 10ga ultra flex silicone cable and 3pairs of XT60 connectors 
.052v drop at 60amps .03 at 30amps opto-isolated

ATX brain still in the works

----------


## JimG

How about this one instead? Says it is for close work and does not have the M extender.

http://www.amazon.com/SHAVIV-151-292...eywords=shaviv

Jim

----------


## Steven57

Started printing the parts and the extruder block in 1.75 and in 3mm says not manifold.

Did you print it anyway?

----------


## clough42

> Started printing the parts and the extruder block in 1.75 and in 3mm says not manifold.
> 
> Did you print it anyway?


I printed with Slic3r, and it didn't have any trouble.  It probably repaired it automatically.

----------


## beerdart

Almost done waiting on a few parts. I must say this is a well thought out and nice design.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

Waiting on belts from China.  Everything's gone together nicely. 

IMG_20141210_203014_578.jpg

----------


## clough42

> Waiting on belts from China.  Everything's gone together nicely. 
> 
> IMG_20141210_203014_578.jpg


Lookin' good.  I hear you on the China part.  I actually have all of the parts in now for the kits, except the bearings.  Hong Kong post miscategorized the package as ammunition and sent it back to the supplier.

Nice.

Paperwork is corrected, and it's in flight again.  I'll be ready to ship as soon as they arrive.

----------


## clough42

> Almost done waiting on a few parts. I must say this is a well thought out and nice design.


How long are those NEMA 17 motors?  I originally designed the block so 40mm long motors would clear the Z axis hardware.

What do they weigh?

----------


## beerdart

Spec sheet 

http://ebay.3dpforu.com/drawings/34mm-stepper.png


> How long are those NEMA 17 motors?  I originally designed the block so 40mm long motors would clear the Z axis hardware.
> 
> What do they weigh?

----------


## TechMasterJoe

> Spec sheet 
> 
> http://ebay.3dpforu.com/drawings/34mm-stepper.png


200g is really good for that TQ and the length fits within the belts
maybe a Nema 17ver is called for clough42
and my i3v is on it's way
keep an eye on the build log for updates
this mod will be on the list very soon
i just ordered 2mm pitch acme for my printer i want to get z a little faster and lets face it 4000 steps per mm is over kill 1000 steps per mm is damn good
2mm acme +16micro is still 1600 steps and if you take that in to account with the limits of the ATmega chips at around 16,000-18,000 steps per second
16000/1600 net me a max safe speed of 10mm/s in the Z axis
16000/80 is 200mm/s X or Y
this number has some flex to it but just remember each output stacks so a 100mm/s in Y and 100mm/s in X stacks to 200mm/s
this is thanks to the single core mini pin head of a brain AVR based controllers have
i wish amtel had a plain atmega with a 80mhz clock so normal firmware worked with lite mods and not a full rewrite.
but hey that just a dream right lol

----------


## AbuMaia

If that 2mm acme works out for you, I may try that at some point. Sure, the .8mm pitch rod that came with the kits allows a theoretical 0.00025mm layer height, but I never attempted anything below 0.1mm layers. I don't think I'll have any need to get that level of detail in Z.

----------


## RobH2

Got my deburring tool today. It's really nice and is so much better than the back side of an xacto.

----------


## TechMasterJoe

> Got my deburring tool today. It's really nice and is so much better than the back side of and xacto.


A machinists best friend !

----------


## beerdart

First print with the Itty Bitty Nema17 Modified Magma hot Ends. . We are only using one drive as someone ordered the wrong hobbed bolts (That would be me). So far its printing nice without any setting changes. Very happy with the fit form and function thanks RobH for the 17 model and Clough for the design. still need to tidy up the wires and get the auto bed level working.

----------


## RobH2

Really good to hear. So the main body rebuild was good? Any tolerance issues?

----------


## beerdart

Just discovered and issue when the motor mounts heat up the attach points sag causing the belt to loose tension. It will need to be reinforced.

----------


## RobH2

Tell me what you think will fix it. Maybe a plate with 4 holes and a center hole for for the pulley? I can put a hole in the middle for it to stick through. Maybe the arms are a bit thicker? Tell me what you need and I'll modify it.

----------


## RobH2

This is not the prettiest model but it might do the trick. If so, I'll make it nicer later. I know it's a long print but if you think this will do it give it a go. 

It must warp a alot because the best part about 'clough42' using belts is that they don't skip unless they get really loose. Are you pushing too many amps through the motors maybe? Mine don't run very hot.

Nema17_Versions.jpg

----------


## clough42

> Just discovered and issue when the motor mounts heat up the attach points sag causing the belt to loose tension. It will need to be reinforced.


You need to reduce the motor temperature (reduce current) or add cooling to the motors.  Adding more plastic to the mount is unlikely to help for long.  You should have lots of torque headroom to reduce the current with those motors.

The NEMA14 motors I specify never get hotter than about 45C with the current pot set at .3V.

----------


## RobH2

This might help you Steve.

Turn the stepper the pots down to the very minimum, manually set an extrude (with no filament in to save materials) in gcode and start turning the pots up until the motor starts to  run. All of my motors ran fine at the lowest amp  setting. The torque was a bit weak though. I could stop the motor easily by  holding the G2T pulley. So, I turned it's put up the tiniest bit. Now when I  grabbed it, and couldn't stop it. At the very lowest pot setting that prevented me from overpowering the motor is where I set it. I did this for all my motors, not just the new extruder motors. 

Now, for me, the printer is much quieter. It was never  loud, but it was sometimes noisy. Now it purrs. It appears I was  overdriving all of my stepper motors even  though they were set at 1/4 of the range by default. I'd say the pots are at 1/8 right now. I can also hold all of my motors with bare fingers and they don't get so hot that I have to remove my grasp. So I'm with clough42, I'm somewhere around 45-50C.

----------


## beerdart

Agree the motor was very hot to the touch. I turned it down I'll do the min settings while running. Thanks for the suggestions.

----------


## RobH2

From what I've read you can run them really hot and the specs have a maximum running temp of over 93C, which I found interesting. But that's super hot. I think by default, most people are probably pushing them too hard by using the recommend 1/4 pot setting. I think you'll be OK with that tweak.

----------


## beerdart

Readjusted all motors to min running + 1/6th  turn. It is much quieter and the shimmed exturder mount is holding tension as it prints the proto3.

----------


## RobH2

> Readjusted all motors to min running + 1/6th  turn. It is much quieter and the shimmed exturder mount is holding tension as it prints the proto3.


Good to hear. Tell me more about the "shim" you used. Do I need to modify the model?

Off topic: like your new Avatar. Love the vaporized air compression. We had the Blue Angels here in Baltimore this year for the 1814 celebration and out of many good ones I got this one. 
Sailibration2014_061.jpg

----------


## beerdart

The shim is temporary teflon disc between the motor and frame. Your proto 3 looks like a winner.

 Back in the day 1984-1989 I worked flight line flight test for all 101 B1-B's at USAF plant 42 it was like an airshow everyday. We had B1 SR71 F117 B2 and lots of different chase planes.

----------


## beerdart



----------


## RobH2

Sorry forum members, I know we are off topic and we'll move it if we can't sit on our hands after this. 

Wow, how incredibly cool is that? I'm impressed, truly...

 I've been a massive "space" geek since I could talk. If my parents had been more plugged in and had noticed my inclinations I probably would have tried to get as close to becoming an astronaut as would have been possible. I have to live vicariously through your "good 'ole days." My best claim to fame though is that I got to spend 5 hours with Buzz Aldrin in the mid-90's. I was an advertising photographer and he was a spokes person for Ellesse footwear, which was my account. We had him alone all day in the studio: what a nice man he was. Prior to that if you had asked me who my hero was I would have said, "two: Neil and Buzz." Well, how often do you get to spend time with your all time hero? 
Buzz.jpg

----------


## beerdart

Rob thats awesome. Yes we are getting off topic maybe start a thread for us Makerfarm peeps. Whats Your Occupation. 

After B1 I worked Rocketdyne for the Delta Atlas and SSME now watching a hot fire (On the hill) from the block house is an experience not many get.

----------


## beerdart

On a side note LOL. The extruder after 1 hour is just above room temp and printing like a dream.

----------


## RobH2

Excellent on all sides: 1) the photos above and 2) that the arms aren't warping now. 

BTW, I've created a new thread so we can continue the "occupation" discussion and get it away from here as you requested. Good idea. Sorry users, thanks for tolerating the past few threads. 

Makerfarm Users Occupation Bragging Thread...

----------


## beerdart

Got the proto3 printed and assembled very robust one issue the stepper center hole need to be oblonged for belt adjustment.. 

Thanks for the tweaks. 


> This is not the prettiest model but it might do the trick. If so, I'll make it nicer later. I know it's a long print but if you think this will do it give it a go. 
> 
> It must warp a alot because the best part about 'clough42' using belts is that they don't skip unless they get really loose. Are you pushing too many amps through the motors maybe? Mine don't run very hot.
> 
> Attachment 3972

----------


## RobH2

I've modified the stepper center holes and elongated them. Let me know if you think this is enough.

HexagonElongatedHoles.jpg

----------


## beerdart

Anyone have the config files for the ittyBitty with ABL for the i3 8" we are having problems getting the ABL setup.
Thanks

----------


## beerdart

OK after spending the day with settings and some Budweiser we have everything working except we have an x and y shift between nozzles. Can anyone shed some light on where the nozzles shift setting are?

----------


## clough42

> Anyone have the config files for the ittyBitty with ABL for the i3 8" we are having problems getting the ABL setup.
> Thanks


Sorry I didn't reply earlier.  You can see my config file here:

https://github.com/clough42/Marlin/b...onfiguration.h

Click the "RAW" button to just download the file.  You will need to adjust the Z probe offsets for your particular setup.

----------


## clough42

> OK after spending the day with settings and some Budweiser we have everything working except we have an x and y shift between nozzles. Can anyone shed some light on where the nozzles shift setting are?


You have two options.  I think RobH set his up with the offset in the Marlin firmware.  I did mine in Slic3r.  I just set the offsets to [10,0] and [-10,0].  This was close enough for me because I spent some time adjusting the tension of the center screws in the groove mount to get them exactly 20mm apart.  If your unit isn't aligned perfectly, you can adjust the offsets to compensate.

Extruder1.PNGExtruder2.PNG

----------


## beerdart

Thanks for the reply. I found the off sets in my slice software and also in config_h.

----------


## adamfilip

eta on hardware kit?

----------


## kd7eir

> eta on hardware kit?


I second that!

----------


## TechMasterJoe

Well i have been trying to print this for the last 2 days nothing has worked to hold ABS down
i can print all day in play and it comes out flawless using hairspray but in ABS the stuff just pops off the bed after about 30 layers and not just this any thing i print in ABS seams to do this
can i get links to other known good ABS filaments and maybe some known good slic3r ABS settings

i tried low in fill 10% + 3 shells(and more) , tried cura 14.09 
i can't even get 5mm tall 10x10 calibration cubes to stick to tune abs flow
even a raft falls off the bed

room temp 76deg F dead air no fans

things tried 
hairspray
glue stick
abs slurry 
kepton tape
even frog tape

i print with abs all day at school and never have problems like this so i think it's this cheep eSun (prototype supply) ABS
the PLa i get from prints better then any PLA i have used but I'm starting to think they suck at ABS

added note if anyone needs belts i ordered mine off aliexpress i have them now in hand i have 52 of them left (my 1/8 on-road R/C uses them to lol )
i have 30 of the 188mm used on the single extruder ver of this as well

----------


## AbuMaia

How often do you clean your glass plate? Try cleaning it with acetone then alcohol, then putting your adhesive on the glass. I use glue stick, and put it on when the glass is cold. I then use a brim of 4-5mm (not a raft), and rarely get any warping anymore.

----------


## sniffle

Ive been fighting with abs as well..  Im finally getting some decent prints... And then im gon a rip it apart and replace everything with my new printed parts :-D

If your hexagon came with a fan shroud like mine did to minimally direct air, try flipping the fan so that warm air is pulled up from the bed and part instead of cold air being blown down onto the part.  

All of my warps were happening on the back side of the part.  After a laptop hd crash and re-setup a firmware update and abl recalibration... Not to mention fighting with octopi... And doing the rough esteps calibration....


Things are currently flat :-)  on my second part using glue stick 

Clough42s x carraige and fan shroud are 100% printed and flat...

Now to reprint the cold end for an unwarped backip set... Some were only marginally warped... I want flat...

----------


## TechMasterJoe

> Ive been fighting with abs as well..  Im finally getting some decent prints... And then im gon a rip it apart and replace everything with my new printed parts :-D
> 
> If your hexagon came with a fan shroud like mine did to minimally direct air, try flipping the fan so that warm air is pulled up from the bed and part instead of cold air being blown down onto the part.  
> 
> All of my warps were happening on the back side of the part.  After a laptop hd crash and re-setup a firmware update and abl recalibration... Not to mention fighting with octopi... And doing the rough esteps calibration....
> 
> 
> Things are currently flat :-)  on my second part using glue stick 
> 
> ...


I'm printing another air guide as i type this to redirect the air up and away from the bed when i flip the fan lol i was thinking the same thing
i'm going to get this all fixed (switched over)
once i can get the parts i need to print in ABS

another reason why my sig is true best tool for 3d printer repair is a 3d printer 

on another subject
Clough42 can i get a copy of the solidworks files for this
a want to add 2 places for some 1 watt leds to light up the filament just before the hotend (so glow in the dark glows while printing)
stupid idea i know

i really think it's the abs at this point the type of warp i see can be seen from a room away my 1" cube had nearly a 1/4in of warp/shrink

----------


## clough42

> eta on hardware kit?





> I second that!


A couple of days.  The bearings just scanned into a nearby post office tonight.  Hopefully I'll have them tomorrow, after which I'll need a few hours to get the listing up if everything is in order.

Importing ball bearings is a pain.

----------


## clough42

> Well i have been trying to print this for the last 2 days nothing has worked to hold ABS down
> i can print all day in play and it comes out flawless using hairspray but in ABS the stuff just pops off the bed after about 30 layers and not just this any thing i print in ABS seams to do this
> can i get links to other known good ABS filaments and maybe some known good slic3r ABS settings
> 
> i tried low in fill 10% + 3 shells(and more) , tried cura 14.09 
> i can't even get 5mm tall 10x10 calibration cubes to stick to tune abs flow
> even a raft falls off the bed
> 
> room temp 76deg F dead air no fans
> ...


I have been running MakerFarm ABS with Garnier Fructis Extreme Hold #5 on glass at 100/110C, and I haven't had any trouble.  Keeping stray air off the bed is important.  Also, I have been getting different results from different colors of filament.  Black and White adhere well and are easy to control when printed at 250C.  Orange doesn't adhere as well and oozes more.  Clear ABS is just awful.  It's brittle.  It pops off the bed at the slightest provocation and oozes and strings badly.  If I lower the temperatures, then I get delamination.  It's voodoo.

I clean the glass with hot water and a sponge, dry it and then spray on enough hairspray to coat, but not run or drip.  I then spray on another light coat after each print.  It takes a print or two (with subsequent coats of hairspray) to get things sticking well.  Eventually, the bed becomes rough with the outlines of previous prints, and I clean it off and start over.  I probably do this every ten prints or so.

----------


## TechMasterJoe

> I have been running MakerFarm ABS with Garnier Fructis Extreme Hold #5 on glass at 100/110C, and I haven't had any trouble.  Keeping stray air off the bed is important.  Also, I have been getting different results from different colors of filament.  Black and White adhere well and are easy to control when printed at 250C.  Orange doesn't adhere as well and oozes more.  Clear ABS is just awful.  It's brittle.  It pops off the bed at the slightest provocation and oozes and strings badly.  If I lower the temperatures, then I get delamination.  It's voodoo.
> 
> I clean the glass with hot water and a sponge, dry it and then spray on enough hairspray to coat, but not run or drip.  I then spray on another light coat after each print.  It takes a print or two (with subsequent coats of hairspray) to get things sticking well.  Eventually, the bed becomes rough with the outlines of previous prints, and I clean it off and start over.  I probably do this every ten prints or so.


i just did like 5 coats using the same hairspray
1 thick coat let dry then cycle the bed (thick is not a runny coat thick as in covered)
2 lite coats let dry then cycle the bed (lite is lite almost like a mist)
then 2 more coats let dry
then printed a single wall calibration a few times they have been sticking very well 

i cleaned bed with glass cleaner first (good automotive stuff with ammonia)

i will try an abs part next if it fails I'm getting new ABS tomorrow (mater-hackers is 2miles away)

print settings
ET=240
bed=110
with ABL tuned using test indicator (i want my 1204 ball screw and anti backlash nuts off ali faster)
layer 0.2mm prims .5mm wide
first layer 0.35high  0.75 wide

simple test parts single wall .5mm plus brim
2014-12-30 23.58.25.jpg2014-12-31 00.01.48.jpg

----------


## RobH2

Just a suggestion, this is a really useful thread about 'clough42's' extruder and it's getting pretty large. It would be nice to keep it on topic and continue the "sticking" issues on other threads that already are discussing "sticking." What do you think?

----------


## Roxy

> This is not the prettiest model but it might do the trick. If so, I'll make it nicer later. I know it's a long print but if you think this will do it give it a go. 
> 
> 
> Attachment 3972


Were the source files ever posted for this?  For some reason, I think I remember looking into this before and the design was done in SolidWorks or something I don't use.   I'm toying with the idea of reverse engineering this and doing the exact same thing in OpenScad.   (All of my plastic pieces for my RepRap printer are done in OpenScad and that would be the easiest way to cleanly merge it with my X-Carrage.  Especially since I want to add connectors for all my wires and such too.)   I guess I should print one and see what I would want to do to get it to mount.

----------


## clough42

> Were the source files ever posted for this?  For some reason, I think I remember looking into this before and the design was done in SolidWorks or something I don't use.   I'm toying with the idea of reverse engineering this and doing the exact same thing in OpenScad.   (All of my plastic pieces for my RepRap printer are done in OpenScad and that would be the easiest way to cleanly merge it with my X-Carrage.  Especially since I want to add connectors for all my wires and such too.)   I guess I should print one and see what I would want to do to get it to mount.


Yes, I designed all of the parts in SolidWorks.  To adapt this to another X Carriage system, I would focus on the shelf.  Everything but the Z probe servo mounts to that.  Here are the relevant dimensions:


ShelfDimensions.JPG

----------


## Roxy

Thank You!  That will make things much easier!  Do you have a similar document calling out all the dimensions of the actual dual extruder?

----------


## clough42

> Thank You!  That will make things much easier!  Do you have a similar document calling out all the dimensions of the actual dual extruder?


Hmm...that one's harder.  It's all curves and lofts.  Even the filament path through the block is curved.  I might be able to put something together for the geometry of the hardware, but it'll take me a little while to get to it.

----------


## clough42

At long last: *The hardware kits are here!*

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Itty-Bitty-D...-/161542799817

This kit includes all of the miscellaneous hardware required to assemble the Itty Bitty Double Extruder:


GT2 20-tooth Pulleys with set screws (2)GT2 200mm Belts (2)688ZZ 8x16x5mm Bearings (6)Extension springs (2)Fiberglass/Polyimide insulatorM2.5x10 socket head cap screws (2)M4x.7 hex nuts (2)M4x20 button head cap screws (2)M3 flat washers (6)M3x.5 hex nuts (11)M3x25 socket head cap screws (3)M3x16 button head socket cap screws (10)M3x12 flat head socket cap screws (10)M3x8 socket head cap screws (6)M3x6 button head socket cap screws (2)

You will also need the printed parts, motors, hobbed bolts, hot ends and fans.  The Hexagon hot ends now come with 25mm and 40mm fans that will work.  If you order your hot ends from Colin at MakerFarm, be sure to let him know you need the 25mm fans.

----------


## AbuMaia

> At long last: *The hardware kits are here!*


  **POUNCE!!**  Thanks!

----------


## bstag

Thanks for putting the hardware kit up. Order placed.

----------


## rhonal89

Will this work on makerfarm 12 i3v. So I can buy a couple of kits from clough42.

----------


## adamfilip

I ordered a set! thanks

----------


## adamfilip

Where can I get the Nema 14's?

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

> Where can I get the Nema 14's?


One very reputable vendor:
http://www.pololu.com/product/1209




> Will this work on makerfarm 12 i3v. So I can buy a couple of kits from clough42.


Yes, X carriage is the same on all three sizes.

----------


## kd7eir

I do not do ebay, can I arrange to buy one directly from you?

----------


## adamfilip

I found some Nema 14 in canada here

http://www.canadarobotix.com/stepper...mm-2-7v-1000ma

----------


## beerdart

First dual print still tweaking settings and offsets but getting close. I had to make a new duct out of aluminum as the custom/homemade hot ends im using are too close for the plastic one even with insulation. Also using the print cooling fan modified for cold end cooling as the 25mm was just not enough flow.

----------


## beerdart

Tweaked and its real close. While running the final print the main extruder idler lug broke off so tomorrow ill print a new main frame with beefed up lugs.

----------


## RobH2

HI Roxy,

I can't get it to upload to Thingiverse for some reason. I've attached it.

V4_IttyBitty_NEMA-17_RobH2_Prototype_04.STL

Sorry for the delay...

----------


## RobH2

Steve, I'm intrigued by the buss you have at the top or your printer. That's an interesting solution for swapping out parts. Does it work well?

----------


## clough42

> I found some Nema 14 in canada here
> 
> http://www.canadarobotix.com/stepper...mm-2-7v-1000ma


That looks about right.  It's a little less torque than the Pololu motor.  Let us know how it works.

----------


## clough42

> I do not do ebay, can I arrange to buy one directly from you?


I'll PM you and we can set it up.

----------


## TechMasterJoe

ordered a kit in support of and to save me time going to a hardware store (I'm Very Lazy)..
and fixed my ABS problems i picked up a roll of silver ABS
Inland Brand from Micro Center a block from My house and it prints amazing (same suppler as Prototype "eSun")
so i think i just got a bum roll of black
and for $14.99 it's Hard to Beat the price just to try ?

----------


## adamfilip

> That looks about right.  It's a little less torque than the Pololu motor.  Let us know how it works.


Hmm.. wonder how much torque is really needs..

----------


## adamfilip

looks like it actually is the Pololu motor

http://www.pololu.com/file/0J689/SY35ST36-1004A.pdf

----------


## beerdart

The terminal strip across the top is great for the 50+ crowd with tired eyes..It works great for swapping components and troubleshooting.  


> Steve, I'm intrigued by the buss you have at the top or your printer. That's an interesting solution for swapping out parts. Does it work well?

----------


## RobH2

I've make another modification to the NEMA-17 version. It was done in CAD so you can download the .sat version and modify it. I posted a .stl too if you just want to try printing it. It will need a small amount of support on the horizontal motor mounts. 

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:581839

V5_IttyBitty_NEMA-17_RobH2_Prototype_01.jpg

----------


## beerdart

Rob your killing me the V4 is into the fourth hour printing and you release V5..  :Wink:

----------


## RobH2

Ha, don't mean to kill you. It's like the iPhone. As soon as you buy one the next version comes out. Next time I'm in Connecticut I'll buy you a few beers. 

Hey, nothing wrong with the V4 I don't think. The V5 won't work any better. It's doesn't fix any flaws or anything. It's just in a format that others can now use to modify it themselves. So, don't worry. I believe that 'clough42' is still modifying the IttyBitty too. He's likely to have an improvement one day and we will all have to reprint our main bodies. 

So, keep printing. You'll be good to go....

----------


## Roxy

> I've make another modification to the NEMA-17 version. It was done in CAD so you can download the .sat version and modify it. I posted a .stl too if you just want to try printing it. It will need a small amount of support on the horizontal motor mounts. 
> 
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:581839
> 
> Attachment 4240


Two questions.  First, CAD doesn't help narrow the field much.   Try going to Yahoo or Google and searching for 'CAD'.    Is that an actual company?  Is the software something you have to pay to have a license?

Secondly...   One thing I was wondering about this design is if it would be better printed laying sort of flat (with lots more support under it).  The reason is, it would be stronger that way, right?

----------


## kd7eir

I received my hardware kit today. Talk about fast shipping! And thanks for the "bonus" item.

----------


## AbuMaia

Just got mine today too. Thanks  :Smile:

----------


## TechMasterJoe

mine is here

but working on another project so it will take me a bit

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

Itty bitty - I've got it built, but waiting on installing it for a few reasons:  A friend was around over the holidays to troubleshoot his stock 10" and I wanted to be on the same firmware/extruder combo.  Also, I just did the upgrade to an atx type power supply and connected +5v to the Ramps and Raspberry.  

I'm messing with the raspberry right now, fighting through getting tightvnc and the webcam working.  I am not a linux guy and Linux does not appreciate people who want to jump in, get something working quickly and leave for 3-5 years at a time.  I did my first octoprint hosted print last night.

Also, although the CPC connector thing is very cool, I'm using molex for the connectors, since I already have crimpers and a bunch of pins, but I'm waiting for a 15 position housing from Mouser.  

I'm looking forward to firing up both barrels soon.

----------


## kd7eir

> Itty bitty - I've got it built, but waiting on installing it for a few reasons:  A friend was around over the holidays to troubleshoot his stock 10" and I wanted to be on the same firmware/extruder combo.  Also, I just did the upgrade to an atx type power supply and connected +5v to the Ramps and Raspberry.  
> 
> I'm messing with the raspberry right now, fighting through getting tightvnc and the webcam working.  I am not a linux guy and Linux does not appreciate people who want to jump in, get something working quickly and leave for 3-5 years at a time.  I did my first octoprint hosted print last night.
> 
> Also, although the CPC connector thing is very cool, I'm using molex for the connectors, since I already have crimpers and a bunch of pins, but I'm waiting for a 15 position housing from Mouser.  
> 
> I'm looking forward to firing up both barrels soon.


Let me know if I can be of any assistance with getting tightvnc working on your Raspberry Pi.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

Thank you.  I don't think I'm stumped yet. I'll stick with it for a while and check in if I hit a wall.

----------


## clough42

> I received my hardware kit today. Talk about fast shipping! And thanks for the "bonus" item.





> Just got mine today too. Thanks


You're very welcome.

As for the bonus item, I received one in a package once, and it made me smile.  If you're outside the US, I'm sorry.  I don't want to push my (your) luck with customs.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

Alright, am I going to have to buy a set of hardware just to find out what the lagniappe is?

----------


## TechMasterJoe

wow it came with Spare parts just for me
yo C42 did you get my pm and the 2 hairsprays
man it's working good for both ABS and PLA only thing is first layer bed temp needs to be a bit hot on PLA but that's not going to hurt anything.

----------


## clough42

Just got your PM.  I continue to be frustrated by the notifications from this site and wish for tapatalk support.

----------


## csader

Thoughts on infill for these parts? Would 15% be pushing my luck?  :Smile:

----------


## TechMasterJoe

15% might be a tad low but 20% will work fine also depends on the type of infill
i print the Nema 17 ver at 15% and 3 prem with 5 top and bottom and it's really strong but looks like turds
try to fix my extruder flow and z problems before i print C42's nema 14 org

----------


## clough42

> Thoughts on infill for these parts? Would 15% be pushing my luck?


I print them at 40%.  I print everything at 40%.  Come to think of it, I never think about it.   :Smile:

----------


## RobH2

I printed them all at 15% and have had no problems. The only thing I printed higher was the idlers because the are under a lot of force. I printed them at 50% infill.

----------


## Poindexter

C42, thanks for the hardware kit. Very fast shipping and a "gift" in mine as well. I'm new to the 3d printing community so I'll try not to newb it up. With a name like mine you'd expect me to have a handle on these kinds of things. All of my parts are in the process of arriving. Looking forward to joining the IBDE crowd. And it goes without saying, but thanks for the design as well.

----------


## csader

Couldn't find the answer to this anywhere:

When wiring up the second extruder, I get that we use E1 for the motor and D9 for the heater. I'm assuming I use T2 for the thermistor? Is there anything else I need to do in the firmware to associate the two?

Also, does the LCD display temps for both hotends?

----------


## RobH2

Yes, the display shows both temps however mine is reversed and I can't figure out why. The right-hand temperature readout is of the left-hand hot end. 

Here's a hookup guide I made from some other ones.

----------


## OldSourKraut

> Yes, the display shows both temps however mine is reversed and I can't figure out why. The right-hand temperature readout is of the left-hand hot end.


Mine is the same way, I have my right hand extruder connected to T0.  I think it sees T0 as the primary extruder and places it in the first or left position on the display.

----------


## beerdart

Just view the printer from the back  bam all good lol

----------


## Errol

Hello can I order a hardware kit to be shipped to New Zealand?

----------


## AbuMaia

Is there any printed part of this extruder that would be damaged by acetone vapor smoothing? I like the shiny red look in the renderings, and I want to try to achieve that look.

----------


## RobH2

I wouldn't think so as long as you don't overdo it and you give it time to re-harden. It might change the tolerances for the bearing holes. You could split the main body and just print one of the holes and smooth it to test it. That way you wouldn't waste 8 hours of printing. There isn't anythng that is dependent on really exacting tolerances. As long as the bearings aren't loose and knocking around you'd be OK. The rest of it has a lot of tolerance really. 

If you do it please post photos. I'd love to see a real one that was fire engine red and shiny...

----------


## adamfilip

Should I be using ABS to print it?

----------


## RobH2

You could use PET or PLA as well. Any rigid filament will work. If you want to smooth it like some other are suggesting then use ABS. Acetone won't smooth PLA or PET. They can be smoothed but I don't think you want to mess with the nasty chemicals that can do it.

----------


## adamfilip

im not worried about smoothing it. just for strength and whats appropirate as an extruder

----------


## RobH2

Sure, I assumed that. You'll be good with any of the three I mentioned. They are all strong. PLA has the lowest melting point so I'd say ABS and PET are better marginally. There's some heat to deal with at the hot ends so you do want as much temp resistance as you can get. You'll need an insulator between the hot ends and the air intake to keep that shroud from deforming no matter what material you use.

----------


## clough42

> Should I be using ABS to print it?


I use ABS and recommend it.  In addition to the higher melting point, it has less surface friction, so the filament should feed a little better than PLA.

----------


## clough42

> Mine is the same way, I have my right hand extruder connected to T0.  I think it sees T0 as the primary extruder and places it in the first or left position on the display.


Interesting.  I wired mine with extruder 0 on the left, as viewed from the front, to match the display.  I had it wired the other way around at first, but swapped the connectors because it was confusing.

----------


## clough42

> Hello can I order a hardware kit to be shipped to New Zealand?


I just updated the listing to allow shipping to NZ.  I had intended to offer global shipping all along, but apparently the category I  chose (Industrial plastics machinery) was excluded from the program.  It's now listed as computer/printer spare parts, and offering shipping to NZ.

I also had a query about Bulgaria, and that's now available as well.

----------


## clough42

> Is there any printed part of this extruder that would be damaged by acetone vapor smoothing? I like the shiny red look in the renderings, and I want to try to achieve that look.


Go for it.  And upload pictures.  I haven't tried it, but I'm interested because of the added layer adhesion.

The bearing pockets are the only part of the extruder with critical tolerances.

----------


## clough42

Sorry for all the late replies.  My notifications started going to spam around the start of the year.

----------


## Errol

Cool thanks. Have ordered the kit. Am really looking forward to getting it up and running. I have a prusa i3v 10"

----------


## sreid55

I found that printing the 3mm version of the body, drilling out the channel with an 11/64" bit makes a perfect fit for a bit of 4mmOD x 2mm ID PTFE tube in the channel.  

http://smile.amazon.com/Fluorotherm-...sin=B00KJDK1N4

Still waiting for a few more parts to finish this up, but it looks promising.

----------


## usarmyaircav

> Sorry for all the late replies.  My notifications started going to spam around the start of the year.


Mine did too, I actually had to create a filter in gmail, to get it to stop sending 3dprintboard notifications to spam

----------


## kfahn

Has anyone had issues with their hexagon hot ends being different lengths? I ordered two new ones from Makerfarm, and they are ~0.5mm diffferent in length from end to end. There also seems to be a slightly updated design from before. (see this other thread on the topic: http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.p...4357#post44357 )

This difference in lengths could pose a problem for us since there isn't any way to level the hexagons. Clough42, did you see anything like this when you were getting yours set up?

----------


## Poindexter

Hey everyone,
I'm having some trouble with getting the servo to respond. My setup is as follows: RRD fan extender from makerfarm (D4 and 5 pins?). D5 is set to auto cool when hotends are above 35, which works. M106 command successfully controls the print cool fan, though I'm unable to determine which pin it is defined to (its plugged into lower right corner of fan extender). This leaves me with the option to power my servo from D40. I have found others who did it but altering my pins.h file as they did didn't have any effect. Im running the Marlin firmware with the config.h and configadv.h files from this thread. Anyone have some insight? I'm so close! Thank you

----------


## Roxy

I can tell you this about Pins.h :    It isn't 100% correct.  The problem is 2 different libraries are used by Marlin.  One is the Fast-I/O library and it uses different logical pin numbers than Pins.h    I had trouble finding an I/O pin to control my servo when I did the Auto Bed Leveling with a PrintrBoard.   I wrote some code to toggle each I/O pin so I could put a volt meter on the desired pin and figure out what the pin # was going to be in Pins.h     Arrrgghhhh....

----------


## kfahn

Care to share that toggle code? I am not sure where to start with writing that, but it strikes me that it would be incredibly useful!

----------


## Poindexter

Thanks Roxy. Also, when powering the servo from the AUX-2 pins, do I need the signal wire on D40 and the pos/neg wires plugged in on the two top pins? The AUX-2 schematics look a bit more convoluted when determining pins than the rest of the board.

----------


## Roxy

> Care to share that toggle code? I am not sure where to start with writing that, but it strikes me that it would be incredibly useful!


Its hardly any code.   I'll look at my older code base archives and see if I can hunt it down.  It also was a little bit smart.  There are certain pins that are deemed to be 'Sensitive'.  It did not mess with any of those.  And in fact, there was no reason to mess with them because those have important stuff connected up to them.  You aren't going to be connecting new stuff to them.

Update:  Here it is.   I don't remember exactly what was going on.  The posted code includes the original M42 command and then 3 more versions done by me to scan.   You probably want to start with the M43 to get a rough idea where your pin is located (numbered).  And then maybe edit the M44 and M45 to limit the search across less pins.  

If you connect up your volt meter to a pin and let this run, it should tell you where it is and when you see something happen on the volt meter you can reset the board and start over using the M42 command to verify things.  You would use the pin numbers you learned from the scan to limit your search and locate the pin.


```
    case 42: //M42 -Change pin status via gcode
      if (code_seen('S'))
      {
        int pin_status = code_value();
        int pin_number = LED_PIN;
        if (code_seen('P') && pin_status >= 0 && pin_status <= 255)
          pin_number = code_value();
        for(int8_t i = 0; i < (int8_t)sizeof(sensitive_pins); i++)
        {
          if (sensitive_pins[i] == pin_number)
          {
            pin_number = -1;
            break;
          }
        }
      #if defined(FAN_PIN) && FAN_PIN > -1
        if (pin_number == FAN_PIN)
          fanSpeed = pin_status;
      #endif
        if (pin_number > -1)
        {
          pinMode(pin_number, OUTPUT);
          digitalWrite(pin_number, pin_status);
          analogWrite(pin_number, pin_status);
        }
      }
     break;
     
  case 43: //M43 - Roxy hack to look for GPIO pins
        int pin_number;
        int i;
     
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("M43 - Roxy GPIO Hackery:\n");
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("HIGH/LOW: ");
        SERIAL_PROTOCOL(HIGH);
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("/ ");
        SERIAL_PROTOCOL(LOW);
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("\n");
        for( pin_number=0; pin_number<55; pin_number++)  {
          SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("Pin  ");
          SERIAL_PROTOCOL(pin_number);
          for(i = 0; i < sizeof(sensitive_pins); i++)    {
            if (sensitive_pins[i] == pin_number)     {
              SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM(" Sensitive!\n");
              goto NEXT_GPIO;          
            }
          }

          pinMode(pin_number, OUTPUT);
          delay(50);
          digitalWrite(pin_number, LOW);
          delay(500);
          digitalWrite(pin_number, HIGH);
          delay(1000);
          digitalWrite(pin_number, LOW);  
          delay(500);        
//          analogWrite(pin_number, HIGH);
          pinMode(pin_number, INPUT);
          delay(50);
          SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("\n");
NEXT_GPIO: ;
        }
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("Done...\n\n");
    break; 
    
 case 44: //M44 - Roxy hack to look at GPIO pin values for input value change
        int pin_being_examined;
        int ii, iii, jj;
        
        pin_being_examined=11;
        iii=-1;
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("M44 - Roxy GPIO Hackery:\n");
        
        pinMode(pin_being_examined, INPUT_PULLUP);
        delay(50);
        
        for( jj=0; jj<10; jj++) {
          do {
            ii = digitalRead(pin_being_examined);
          } while(ii==iii) ;
          iii = ii;
          SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("Pin  ");
          SERIAL_PROTOCOL(pin_being_examined); 
          SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM(" : ");
          SERIAL_PROTOCOL(ii); 
          SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("\n");
        }
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("Done...\n\n");
    break; 
    
    case 45: //M45 - Roxy hack to look for GPIO pins
        
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("M45 - Roxy GPIO Hackery:\n");
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("HIGH/LOW: ");
        SERIAL_PROTOCOL(HIGH);
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("/ ");
        SERIAL_PROTOCOL(LOW);
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("\n");
        for( pin_number=28; pin_number<=31; pin_number++)  {
          SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("Pin  ");
          SERIAL_PROTOCOL(pin_number);
          for(i = 0; i < sizeof(sensitive_pins); i++)    {
            if (sensitive_pins[i] == pin_number)     {
              SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM(" Sensitive!\n");
              goto NEXT_GPIOx;          
            }
          }

          pinMode(pin_number, OUTPUT);
          delay(50);
          digitalWrite(pin_number, LOW);
          delay(500);
          digitalWrite(pin_number, HIGH);
          delay(1000);
          digitalWrite(pin_number, LOW);  
          delay(500);        
//          analogWrite(pin_number, HIGH);
          pinMode(pin_number, INPUT);
          delay(50);
          SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("\n");
NEXT_GPIOx: ;
        }
        SERIAL_PROTOCOLPGM("Done...\n\n");
    break;
```

----------


## clough42

> Has anyone had issues with their hexagon hot ends being different lengths? I ordered two new ones from Makerfarm, and they are ~0.5mm diffferent in length from end to end. There also seems to be a slightly updated design from before. (see this other thread on the topic: http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.p...4357#post44357 )
> 
> This difference in lengths could pose a problem for us since there isn't any way to level the hexagons. Clough42, did you see anything like this when you were getting yours set up?


I didn't have any trouble.  I bought two hot ends directly from RepRapDiscount, and they were exactly the same length once I disassembled them, cleaned them out, heated and tightened them.

I would disassemble the blocks and nozzles and look for any flashing or other imperfections in the metal that might be preventing them from seating properly.  Then heat up the block to your printing temperature, tighten the nozzle first and then tighten the barrel into the block with the wrench.

Note that you can adjust the heights a little bit by racking the whole X carriage left and right.  Just turn the Z screws by hand to tip the axis and level the nozzles.  As long as you're using auto-bed-leveling, this will work fine.

I am in the process of getting a web site set up with detailed assembly and calibration instructions.  I developed a couple of calibration objects to make it easier.  More on that soon...

----------


## RobH2

I developed a system for my "rod" version Makerfarm 8" that allows me to perfectly level the two Hexagon heads. I've posted some photos. There are 4 views per page showing different angles. The top image shows it twisted to the left, the center 4 show it roughly centered and the bottom 4 images show it twisted to the right. It's a printed back plate that replaces the back plate from the IttyBitty. It attaches directly to the existing wood on the rods. I had to drill a couple of holes and just put bolts through. 

Maybe you could do the same kind of thing. It's super easy to use and works perfectly for me.

----------


## beerdart

Rob thats a great solution I also have a removable back plate screwed to a printed sled I never thought about slotting for adjustment. My adjustment is on the hot end head sink with threaded rod and a jamb nut. Yours seams more friendly.

----------


## clough42

The Itty Bitty Double Extruder now has a new home on the web:http://clough42.com/go/itty-bitty-double-extruder
Detailed assembly and calibration instructions are also now available.  The calibration system uses a new set of calibration objects and an on-line calculator to hopefully make the process a little easier:
Assembly instructions:  http://clough42.com/go/itty-bitty-do...ruder-assembly
Calibration instructions:  http://clough42.com/go/double-extruder-calibration
Le me know if you have any questions.  This is a brand new site, and things might be a little rough around the edges.

----------


## clough42

> Hey everyone,
> I'm having some trouble with getting the servo to respond. My setup is as follows: RRD fan extender from makerfarm (D4 and 5 pins?). D5 is set to auto cool when hotends are above 35, which works. M106 command successfully controls the print cool fan, though I'm unable to determine which pin it is defined to (its plugged into lower right corner of fan extender). This leaves me with the option to power my servo from D40. I have found others who did it but altering my pins.h file as they did didn't have any effect. Im running the Marlin firmware with the config.h and configadv.h files from this thread. Anyone have some insight? I'm so close! Thank you


The fan extender board only uses D4 and D5, even though it also covers D6 and D11, where the servo would normally be connected.  If you solder a 3-pin header to the back of the fan extender board, to the top of the D11 pins, you can still connect the servo there, and you don't have to do anything special in firmware.

The connections you show for the cooling fans are correct.  The print fan is on D4 and the hotend fan is on D5.

----------


## Forrest

Nice site ... I have ordered all the parts, motors, hot ends, etc. to build this, should have everything in a week or two. Thanks for your efforts in putting all this together, including the hardware kit on eBay.

----------


## clough42

> Nice site ... I have ordered all the parts, motors, hot ends, etc. to build this, should have everything in a week or two. Thanks for your efforts in putting all this together, including the hardware kit on eBay.


Thank you.  You're welcome.

----------


## clough42

I'm looking at the RRD and Geetech fan extenders, and it looks like they might be wired opposite of each other.  Has anyone else seen this?

The RRD fan extender (http://www.makerfarm.com/index.php/r...-extender.html) looks like it has the fans on D4/D5, and the Geetech one (http://www.geeetech.com/wiki/index.p...D_Fan_Extender) looks like they're on D6/D11.

The actual Geetech page referrs to their extender as an "RRD" fan exdender, and the top of the page references pin 4, just like the RRD extender, but the photos clearly show it wired to D6/D11 and the bullet down further in the page says to define FAN_PIN as 6.

For the record, when I recommend soldering pins to the top, for a servo, this will only work with the real RRD extender that has D11 free.

----------


## Poindexter

Thanks for the work around C42, as well as the new site. Time to get this thing running 100%.

----------


## mwyrick

> I'm looking at the RRD and Geetech fan extenders, and it looks like they might be wired opposite of each other.  Has anyone else seen this?
> 
> The RRD fan extender (http://www.makerfarm.com/index.php/r...-extender.html) looks like it has the fans on D4/D5, and the Geetech one (http://www.geeetech.com/wiki/index.p...D_Fan_Extender) looks like they're on D6/D11.
> 
> The actual Geetech page referrs to their extender as an "RRD" fan exdender, and the top of the page references pin 4, just like the RRD extender, but the photos clearly show it wired to D6/D11 and the bullet down further in the page says to define FAN_PIN as 6.
> 
> For the record, when I recommend soldering pins to the top, for a servo, this will only work with the real RRD extender that has D11 free.


I have a RioRand RRD Fan Extender and they are on D6 and D11 for sure.  I have not decided if I am going to change my Pins.h or just rewire the board.  You can see from the link below a good picture of the traces as to where they are.  What I received is just like the pictures.

*http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GHE3456/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1*

----------


## kd7eir

Since board 34 redirects the fan to pin 4, why is anyone making extenders that use pin 6? Just sounds like ignorance to me.

----------


## printbus

Here's another possible option for a fan expander - you'd have to mount and wire it yourself but that way you can pick and choose what available pin you want each of the three MOSFETs to be controlled by.  eBay MOSFET breakout board switch relay (15A, 60V) 3-outputs for  Arduino/PIC

----------


## mwyrick

> I have a RioRand RRD Fan Extender and they are on D6 and D11 for sure.  I have not decided if I am going to change my Pins.h or just rewire the board.  You can see from the link below a good picture of the traces as to where they are.  What I received is just like the pictures.
> 
> *http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GHE3456/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1*


So in playing with the Geetech one on D6/D11 I found I could just install it shifted two sets of pins to the right towards Aux-1 and now it runs on D4/D5,  This also opens up D11 for the servo to connect to so I don't have to do any modding of the expander.  Board type 34 works fine with it installed two rows of pins over.   I would expect the RRD expander on D4/D5 might be able to be shifted one row to make D11 available to the servo and still have D4 for the fan.

----------


## beerdart

Anyone try a retractable hot-end with the Itty Bitty?

----------


## AbuMaia

"retractable hot end"? What do you mean?

----------


## beerdart



----------


## AbuMaia

No, I don't think that'd work with this extruder.

----------


## beerdart

Why not? ...

----------


## clough42

> So in playing with the Geetech one on D6/D11 I found I could just install it shifted two sets of pins to the right towards Aux-1 and now it runs on D4/D5,  This also opens up D11 for the servo to connect to so I don't have to do any modding of the expander.  Board type 34 works fine with it installed two rows of pins over.   I would expect the RRD expander on D4/D5 might be able to be shifted one row to make D11 available to the servo and still have D4 for the fan.


Perfect.  That's a lot easier.

----------


## clough42

> 


Oh...interesting.  In that video, it looks like they're using the filament drive to force the hot end down against spring pressure.  I think the only issue would be the diameter of the heat block.  How big are they?

----------


## beerdart

Correct it uses filament pressure with a spring return down tube. There unit looks a little long but it might fit. I plan to make a new cold end with retract for my set-up. If anyone has a broken Hex i could look into modifying the cold end.

----------


## Poindexter

Is there any benefit in having the print fan running during preheat? Thats how my printer was configured during the test prints. Is it meant to reduce oozing?

----------


## clough42

> Is there any benefit in having the print fan running during preheat? Thats how my printer was configured during the test prints. Is it meant to reduce oozing?


I don't run the print fan during preheat.

----------


## clough42

> Correct it uses filament pressure with a spring return down tube. There unit looks a little long but it might fit. I plan to make a new cold end with retract for my set-up. If anyone has a broken Hex i could look into modifying the cold end.


Hey...that looks like it might fit with the right groove mount and a long enough servo probe arm.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

It's an intriguing idea but I would need to get more real world reviews.  It just seems like Z level repeatability would be tough to get consistent.

----------


## clough42

> It's an intriguing idea but I would need to get more real world reviews.  It just seems like Z level repeatability would be tough to get consistent.


Yeah...it is a great idea, but it isn't clear to me if it's adding a lot of value.

If you look at the Stratasys UPring SE Plus (which is a fantastic printer if you have five figures burning a hole in your pocket), it uses a cam system to raise and lower its two nozzles.  There's a cam bar extending all the way through the head assembly, sticking out both sides.  You slide it back and forth to switch nozzles.  While printing, the printer runs the head all the way against the side of the frame to push the bar to one side or the other, then moves the nozzle over a catch bin, extrudes some plastic into the bin and then wipes the nozzle on a metal brush.  It does this for every nozzle change, so twice per layer.

This auto raise system doesn't really deal with priming or cleaning the nozzles, so I think at best it just keeps the idle nozzle from dragging across the print and smearing whatever it's oozing onto the print.  If it's oozing, though, that extra plastic is still going to get wiped somewhere.

----------


## adamfilip

can you add something about wiring up Nema 14s the colors are different then the standard steppers from makerfarm

----------


## RobH2

This might help in the meantime:

http://www.easterngeek.com/2010/06/h...otor-lead.html

----------


## clough42

> can you add something about wiring up Nema 14s the colors are different then the standard steppers from makerfarm


The short answer, if you're using the Pololu 1209 motor is that I have them wired blue-red-green-black.  You may have to flip the connector if the motor turns the wrong way.

In general, a four-lead stepper motor has two coils.  You can use an ohmmeter or continuity tester to figure out which wires are connected to the same coil.  On the Pololu motor, you'll find that the blue and red wires are connected to one coil and the black and green wires are connected to the other

You can also figure it out with no tools.  If you connect two wires from the same coil together, the motor will get harder to turn by hand and you will know you've found a pair.

Once you figure out the coils, just connect the wires in order, the two wires from one coil, followed by the two wires from the other cool.  Order doesn't matter, except to change the motor direction.  If your motor turns the wrong way, just turn the whole connector around on the board.

Pro tip: if you need to extend your motor wires, Makerfarm has motor extensions really cheap.  As in cheap enough that I buy ten or twenty every time I place an order, just for the wire.

----------


## clough42

> can you add something about wiring up Nema 14s the colors are different then the standard steppers from makerfarm


And here's another page on stepper wiring that addresses other motor types:

http://reprap.org/wiki/Stepper_wiring

----------


## adamfilip

i switched from a Hitec 9gram servo to cheaper towerpro servo as it fits the servo bracket better
but for some reason when i send down a servo command it only moves 45 degrees at a time instead of 90
(and yes im telling it to move 90)

----------


## RobH2

Hmmm, I use the Towerpro servos and have used two of them. Both functioned normally. They are cheap enough, maybe swap it out and see if you have a bad one.

----------


## adamfilip

hmm i commented out this and it seems to have fixed it

 //#define PROBE_SERVO_DEACTIVATION_DELAY 300

----------


## RobH2

That's interesting because here is mine. But hey, if it works, well...it works, right?  Notice the comment I have:

#define PROBE_SERVO_DEACTIVATION_DELAY 500  // DEFAULT was Disabled

----------


## adamfilip

when i had the Hitec Servo i enabled it to reduce twitching. but with the tower it seems like a slow dog compared to the hitec
havent noticed any twitching yet. but i also insulated the servo wires to reduce EMI

----------


## RobH2

What did you insulate them with?

----------


## AbuMaia

After reading through the posts in this thread https://3dprintboard.com/showthread....Dv6-vs-hexagon, I'm more hesitant to buy two Hexagons to replace the E3D I have now. Is there no way we can get an IBDE version for the E3Dv6?

----------


## clough42

> After reading through the posts in this thread https://3dprintboard.com/showthread....Dv6-vs-hexagon, I'm more hesitant to buy two Hexagons to replace the E3D I have now. Is there no way we can get an IBDE version for the E3Dv6?


What is the max width dimension of the e3d fan shroud?  It's getting tight under the X carriage shelf if you still want a Z probe.

Does the E3D do any better than the hexagon at preventing oozing?

Also, what's the best way for me to get my hands on a couple of E3d v6's?  I see a lot of chinese sellers with very low prices.

----------


## sniffle

> What is the max width dimension of the e3d fan shroud?  It's getting tight under the X carriage shelf if you still want a Z probe.
> 
> Does the E3D do any better than the hexagon at preventing oozing?
> 
> Also, what's the best way for me to get my hands on a couple of E3d v6's?  I see a lot of chinese sellers with very low prices.



When i get mine in this week before putting it in the machine i will do my best to make a rough model of it for you.  The X carriage might have to be replaced and widened, or I have an idea for extending the bottom if need be.

----------


## AbuMaia

> What is the max width dimension of the e3d fan shroud?  It's getting tight under the X carriage shelf if you still want a Z probe.


http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:340312
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:341689
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:433258




> Does the E3D do any better than the hexagon at preventing oozing?


I couldn't say, I've never used the Hexagon.




> Also, what's the best way for me to get my hands on a couple of E3d v6's?  I see a lot of chinese sellers with very low prices.


I got mine directly from E3D.

----------


## adamfilip

almost done, its been a challenging upgrade so far

----------


## adamfilip

more pics, still need to print the proper dual fan shroud

----------


## RobH2

Love the gold fan. Hey, what springs are you using on the idler? I'm using tiny rubber bands stacked on each side. It's adjustable but they stretch out an about a month and i have to replace them.

----------


## adamfilip

During ABL since the servo arm is very close to the bed once its done ABL
right now, when it tried to retract the servo its very close to the bed and it hits the bed.

I would like it to lift Z before it retracts

----------


## adamfilip

i got the hardware kit, springs were included

----------


## RobH2

Ok, I'll ask 'clough42'. Thanks...

----------


## beerdart

Printed a second Itty Bitty for a spare sliced with S3D zoom in for detail. Also add a belt guard to the pulley to prevent the belt from walking off the pulley.

----------


## beerdart

Rob you can get a screen door spring and cut it to size. 




> Love the gold fan. Hey, what springs are you using on the idler? I'm using tiny rubber bands stacked on each side. It's adjustable but they stretch out an about a month and i have to replace them.

----------


## RobH2

Steve, did you have the belts walking off or are you just thinking it wouldn't hurt to prevent it? 

I saw your cones too, I had the same issue. Where the filament changed  and dove in I got a messy line of black. I've been thinking about doing a  'wiper'. Here's a link that shows one. I've seen a few variations that  employ different mechanisms. We might need Roxy or someone to help get  the code right. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF6Z...ature=youtu.be   ...uses a guitar wire.




      ..................................................  ..................................................  .................

----------


## beerdart

Yes I had a belt walk off during one print I moved the motor side pulley over to prevent it but adding a rim the the large pulley should prevent it altogether.

----------


## beerdart

For the wipe check out the way Cura makes a prime and wipe tower works good. But after switching to S3D I need a better way.

----------


## RobH2

> Yes I had a belt walk off during one print I moved the motor side pulley over to prevent it but adding a rim the the large pulley should prevent it altogether.


Wow, really. The axis of the two shafts must be off just a bit or something softened and shifted. I might go ahead and print two gears with guards as a preventative measure so if it happens I can quickly change them. Although, if it's a chronic issue and the belt is pressing up against the guard, it might wear the belt out or cause other problems. It might be better to diagnose why it happened to start with and fix that. 

I'll have a look at the Cura 'wipe.' It shouldn't be hard to do a good wipe system with the super-coders we have on this site. I'm just not good enough to write it. I can come up with the mechanics but not the code. To keep the travel time to the edge down I wonder if we could come up with a servo that brings a wiper in and then retracts? That would be fun. That might be difficult though in the first 5-10 layers when there isn't much clearance between the bed and the hotend orifice. Hmmm.... need to think about this.

----------


## beerdart

Dropped the pulley STL on Thngiverse. 
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:652354/#files

----------


## paulpangrazzi

> So in playing with the Geetech one on D6/D11 I found I could just install it shifted two sets of pins to the right towards Aux-1 and now it runs on D4/D5,  This also opens up D11 for the servo to connect to so I don't have to do any modding of the expander.  Board type 34 works fine with it installed two rows of pins over.   I would expect the RRD expander on D4/D5 might be able to be shifted one row to make D11 available to the servo and still have D4 for the fan.


This was a helpful tip, especially since I ordered the Geetech before realizing there were so many alternative flavors of fan extenders.

----------


## clough42

> Yes I had a belt walk off during one print I moved the motor side pulley over to prevent it but adding a rim the the large pulley should prevent it altogether.


Interesting.  SDP/SI has specifications for when flanges are needed, and this drive setup should be deep in the region that requires flanges only on one side.  I generally turn the pulley in the normal forward drive direction unlit the belt settles in and adjust the small pulley until it stays centered on the big one.

I'd still try to adjust your drive so the belt stays in the center.  Belts will try to climb to the highest point if they can.  That's how most band saws control the blade position on the drive tires.

----------


## beerdart

Yes its staying in the center now it was only for one print that was sliced with a new slicer and it had wicked retract speed.

----------


## paulpangrazzi

Finally printed, assembled, and wired up on my Makerfarm i3V 10" with polulu 14 motors, hxt-900 servo, 1.75 hexagons, and a geetech fan expander. I have the heated bed on a relay. Using Repetier with the Cura slicing engine.
The hardware assembly all seems to work, (even after I briefly had the 12V jumper to the Geetech board flipped for a moment. Facepalm.) Extruders roll in the right direction, heat up and display temps. Print fan enabled at will. Golden.

But "auto bed level" printing is challenging...

1. What is a typical sample Start G-code sequence for this setup? 
When I copied Clough42's sample provided earlier in the thread the ABL routine begins, but everything stalls when the LCD displays "Heating..." Nothing begins to heat*. 
If I use Repetier/Cura dual extruder Gcode defaults, things appear to behave as expected, but after the G28 homing sequence (x, y, then move nearly to the center of the bed and z) the print begins at homing height.... in other words, above the bed. Confusingly, I was able once to print ON the bed, but now can't duplicate it. I need a proper procedure.
My probe offset settings in Configuration.h currently are:
X=22
Y=-7
Z=-2.11

2. I've disabled eeprom settings in Configuration.h based on other forum advice; mostly to eliminate variables in testing. Is this important?

3. I understand there are two ABL methods; grid vs 3pt... But I don't understand why or how they are used. The both appear to be enabled, but is grid invoked by G29? It appears to be, since G29 causes the probe to tap across the glass 9 times (3x3).

I realize there are other forums devoted to ABL; I'm posting here because there's likely to be specific solutions with the common parts/vitamins for this build.

Thanks.

*Edit: I realized Clough42's G-code samples from post #55 weren't meant for copy/paste. They were examples where the bracketed attributes [first_layer_bed_temperature] were supposed to be replaced with dynamic "S{BED}" or explicit "S110" temperatures. Sigh... brain working again.

----------


## beerdart

Issue a G28 then G29 manually and see if it completes the routine.

----------


## paulpangrazzi

> Issue a G28 then G29 manually and see if it completes the routine.


It does complete both routines. On G28, it moves to X, Y, then near center of bed and Z. On G29 it maps the glass in a 3x3 grid and retracts the probe, leaving the extruder in the last position of the test.

For my Start G-code, shouldn't these commands occur after the bed and hot ends are heated to allow for proper thermal expansion? I see that Clough's code appears to accommodate for this, but I'm not able to get a print started with it yet.

Edit: I just successfully started a print. It's still a bit too high off the bed, but at least it's trying to print ON the bed now. I *think* disabling the eeprom commands helped. Will keep tweaking.

----------


## beerdart

Yes your start G code should heat first. Ill post my start code later when I get home.

----------


## adamfilip

First test print

http://youtu.be/Fh9bkObiFOU

----------


## adamfilip

> What did you insulate them with?


I first sprayed the servo wires with Super Shield (Nickle conductive coating) then i wrapped thin strips of adhesive aluminum foil tape around them, seems to have helped

the Super shield isnt cheap ($30/can)

----------


## RobH2

> I first sprayed the servo wires with Super Shield (Nickle conductive coating) then i wrapped thin strips of adhesive aluminum foil tape around them, seems to have helped
> 
> the Super shield isnt cheap ($30/can)


Great, thanks.

----------


## RobH2

> First test print
> 
> http://youtu.be/Fh9bkObiFOU



Yea! Looking good....

----------


## csader

No matter what I do, I can't get the hotends level...my right side Z-nut spins itself out of the nut trap by the time the right side hotend touches the paper (see gap on right side in photo). I'm at a loss...

----------


## beerdart

Sounds like you have a Z axes bind remove the rods from the motors and make sure your Z has no bind throughout the entire range. 


> No matter what I do, I can't get the hotends level...my right side Z-nut spins itself out of the nut trap by the time the right side hotend touches the paper (see gap on right side in photo). I'm at a loss...

----------


## csader

> Sounds like you have a Z axes bind remove the rods from the motors and make sure your Z has no bind throughout the entire range.


Sorry, I'm a little dull sometimes. Can you elaborate on what you mean by making sure there's no bind? 

I'm assuming I should discconnect the threaded rod from the motors, then run the z-nuts up and down the threaded rod to make sure they don't hang on the threads?

----------


## printbus

Properly tightened, the eight M5 bolts that hold the X-motor and X-idler plates to the horizontal v-rails turns the x-carriage into a pretty firm assembly.  The z-rods can really only be used for minor adjustment once those M5 bolts are tight.  As csader is seeing, you can't use  a z-rod to pull down one side very much without the nut pulling out of the bracket on that side.  The nut is intended to back out like that in case of a failure that causes the Z-motors to attempt driving the extruder into the print bed. Here, it's the other side of the x-carriage being held up by the other Z rod rather than the extruder hitting the print bed. Different cause, same result.

EDIT 4: Removed portions of the post that were a bad idea...

----------


## clough42

> No matter what I do, I can't get the hotends level...my right side Z-nut spins itself out of the nut trap by the time the right side hotend touches the paper (see gap on right side in photo). I'm at a loss...


If you've already got the left nozzle on the bed, lowering the right z rod won't do anything.  Raise the left side slightly and then lower the right to get them both to settle evenly.

If the nozzles are in the air and the right nut is backing out, your axis is binding and resisting the tilting motion.  If it's tilted a lot (more than a couple of mm), you may have something misaligned.  Check that your hot ends are the same length and that the pockets in the bottom of the extruder block are cleaned out.

You could loosen the screws holding the extrusions to the wood x motor and idler assemblies, adjust and retighten.  You could also just adjust the bed to touch the nozzles evenly.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

+1 on loosening the eight bolts and realigning the x carriage.  

RobH2 - I have never been able to print that arch because as soon as it bridges from side to side at the top the tension pulls the small piece off the bed.  if I set the settings so the bridges aren't stretched at all  they sag and look terrible.  I see you added a foot to the outboard end.  is there a secret to being able to bridge this properly?

----------


## RobH2

> You could loosen the screws holding the extrusions to the wood x motor and idler assemblies, adjust and retighten.  You could also just adjust the bed to touch the nozzles evenly.


Maybe you need to make a backing plate adjuster like I did for the rod version of the MakerFarm i3. I'd make that for your but I don't have the rail version to use for measurements and details. I think I've posted this before but here is what I did again. It works beautifully. I can get very, very precise leveling in just a few minutes.

----------


## beerdart

1+ on the tilt plate I did it to mine and its great..

----------


## beerdart

Rob can you  move the test prints and S3D discussion to this thread as not to mud up this thread? 
http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.php?9768-simplify3d

Good point. Done... (RobH2)

----------


## csader

Probably not the place to post this, but since I'm using Cloughs configuration.h, I figure what the heck.

Having an issue where Z axis isn't homing on G28 or G29...I can move the z axis up and down just fine using Pronterface, but when I send G28 or G29 the X and Y home. With G28 Z does nothing. With G29, Z raises 10-ish then does nothing.

Going crazy trying to figure all this out.

Edit: Sorry, I'm an idiot. Typo in my firmware had the Feedrate setting itself to 0. Fixed.

----------


## clough42

> Probably not the place to post this, but since I'm using Cloughs configuration.h, I figure what the heck.
> 
> Having an issue where Z axis isn't homing on G28 or G29...I can move the z axis up and down just fine using Pronterface, but when I send G28 or G29 the X and Y home. With G28 Z does nothing. With G29, Z raises 10-ish then does nothing.
> 
> Going crazy trying to figure all this out.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, I'm an idiot. Typo in my firmware had the Feedrate setting itself to 0. Fixed.


Double check that you have the max endstops disabled in Configuration.h.  I let a few copies of my file into the wild with them enabled and triggering randomly.  There should be a link to my current file in the first post of this thread.

----------


## clough42

Oh, and if you're using my Configuration.h file, note that I have the EEPROM functionality turned on.  You will want to do an M502 (factory defaults) followed by M500 (store to EEPROM) after flashing the firmware.

----------


## csader

Should I be able to see the e-steps for both extruders via the LCD? I only see one. 

Using clough's configuration.h.

----------


## csader

Jeez, I feel like I've got nothing but issues...

1. Here's a video of my extruders pushing out equal amounts of filament at the same speed and temp. Left extruder works fine. Right extruder seems like maybe it's clogged? If so, how does one fix that without having to take everything apart?




2. I've tried multiple times to calculate the probe offset using this method but when I try to print the height gauge from clough's site, the hotends try to start 20-ish mm off the heatbed. Am I supposed to use a different method to calculate the X_PROBE_OFFSET_FROM_EXTRUDER, Y_PROBE_OFFSET_FROM_EXTRUDER, and Z_PROBE_OFFSET_FROM_EXTRUDER values? Also, yes...I'm doing an M502 + M500 after uploading the firmware.

3. I'm using Cura, and it seems like my start.code is not getting run...I have a G29 (ABL) in there, but the printer isn't doing it before trying to print. Now that I have dual extruders enabled in Cura, I see my start.gcode and end.gcode, but now there's a preSwitchExtruder.gcode, post.SwitchExtruder.gcode, a start2.gcode and an end2.gcode...what are all of these for?

I'm really hoping this is helpful for other people and I'm not just being a dunce.

----------


## adamfilip

> Should I be able to see the e-steps for both extruders via the LCD? I only see one. 
> 
> Using clough's configuration.h.


I can only see one estep option aswell
I read somewhere that if you end up putting a second estep number in the config.h file it will ignore it
but i havent tried myself.

----------


## clough42

> Jeez, I feel like I've got nothing but issues...
> 
> 1. Here's a video of my extruders pushing out equal amounts of filament at the same speed and temp. Left extruder works fine. Right extruder seems like maybe it's clogged? If so, how does one fix that without having to take everything apart?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. I've tried multiple times to calculate the probe offset using this method but when I try to print the height gauge from clough's site, the hotends try to start 20-ish mm off the heatbed. Am I supposed to use a different method to calculate the X_PROBE_OFFSET_FROM_EXTRUDER, Y_PROBE_OFFSET_FROM_EXTRUDER, and Z_PROBE_OFFSET_FROM_EXTRUDER values? Also, yes...I'm doing an M502 + M500 after uploading the firmware.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what's happening with the extrusion from the right nozzle.  Is the mass of filament extruded similar?  I have seen tiny imperfections in the nozzle cause that.  I've also seen the plastic just stick and twist up like that and when I pulled it off with tweezers, it started flowing okay.

I have three hexagon hot ends, and the very first one got clogged on day 1.  I had to disassemble it, dissolve the ABS out with acetone, clean it and start again.  After that, everything was fine.  You could also try clearing it with a guitar string, but it's tough because it has to be hot.

You should be running a G28 followed by a G29.  I played with Cura briefly at one point and also had trouble getting it to run my start GCODE.  I never solved it.  The whole reason I was investigating Cura was because Slic3r was excruciatingly slow.  Once I discovered it was just the "avoid crossing perimeters" setting, I haven't gone back and sorted it out.

The Configuration.h file I link to in the first post is actually the file I use on my printer, so the Z offset in the file should be pretty close if you're using a snap switch without an arm.  If you're using one with an arm, it's probably within 5-10mm.

If you're running the firmware from my fork, the G28 should cause the printer to center on the bed and probe once to set an initial Z height, which will be off by 3-7mm and then the G29 should probe nine times and end up close.  You can then measure the space between the nozzles and bed and increase the Z offset by the measured gap to get close.

It sounds like you're not getting the G28 to run, though.

----------


## sniffle

C42 can solidworks open/import .IPT files from inventor?  If so PM me your email, I will email you the model i made for the E3DV6

I'm working on updating the original fan shroud right now for the single extruder, but i figured you might want to see if you could fit these under the itty bitty, though looking at it right now you'll have to figure something out for the servo and foot

----------


## sniffle

woo hoo managed to grab a kit before they were gone :-D

----------


## adamfilip

Where can I get this  :Smile:  ?



> Maybe you need to make a backing plate adjuster like I did for the rod version of the MakerFarm i3. I'd make that for your but I don't have the rail version to use for measurements and details. I think I've posted this before but here is what I did again. It works beautifully. I can get very, very precise leveling in just a few minutes.

----------


## RobH2

What printer do  you have? I have files for the "rod" version but not for the "VSlot" version.

----------


## adamfilip

I have the vslot, please send me what you have, I will try and make a vslot version

----------


## RobH2

I built a model in 3ds Max. What do you have to edit 3d files?

----------


## beerdart

I have the 2D. dxf files for both the rod and vslide if anyone wants it.

----------


## RobH2

> I have the 2D. dxf files for both the rod and vslide if anyone wants it.


I'd definitely like to have those.

----------


## Forrest

I wonder what would happen if one of the fixed wheels on top were replaced with an eccentric spacer, or both. seems then the tilt could be adjusted slightly if needed, perhaps on the order of half a mm ... only need to drill out the holes to take the eccentric spacer? I got my double extruder installed today, and checked with paper under them, seems both nozzles are very close to the same height off the glass .... but no print tests yet, still need to wire it all up.

----------


## adamfilip

> I'd definitely like to have those.


yes please send!
also I have Cinema 4D R16
I can import OBJ, STL files

----------


## clough42

> I wonder what would happen if one of the fixed wheels on top were replaced with an eccentric spacer, or both. seems then the tilt could be adjusted slightly if needed, perhaps on the order of half a mm ... only need to drill out the holes to take the eccentric spacer? I got my double extruder installed today, and checked with paper under them, seems both nozzles are very close to the same height off the glass .... but no print tests yet, still need to wire it all up.


I think with the v-slot, this is the easiest path forward, assuming the error isn't too great.  I spoke with Colin about this a while back, but for my printer and hot ends, just racking the carriage slightly was enough.

----------


## adamfilip

I made a tilt plate for my i3v 12" will test soon, http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:664362/#files

----------


## sniffle

C42 when you get ready to test the e3d itty bitty let me know ill order a second one and be your guinea pig

----------


## beerdart

.......................................

----------


## adamfilip

What scale are these in?, inches? mm?

----------


## adamfilip

Im running into jamming with the extruder, need to add more tension on the hobbed bolt

----------


## clough42

> Im running into jamming with the extruder, need to add more tension on the hobbed bolt


What filament and temperature?  Are you using the MakerFarm hobbed bolt?  What fan are you using to cool the hot ends?  The one from Digi-key, or something else?  s it actually grinding the filament?  What springs are you using?  On my extruder, with the springs I include in the kit, the motor skips long before the ABS filament strips.

----------


## adamfilip

Using ABS Black filament, 3mm made by MG Chemicals,  using makerfarm hobbed bolt, using fan from makerfarm, using springs from your kit. ive run into prints where i just stops feeding in middle of a print and when i check it , the hobbed bolt just ground down the filament,
steppers are not skipping

running 245 degrees on .4mm hotend, hexagon

----------


## clough42

> Using ABS Black filament, 3mm made by MG Chemicals,  using makerfarm hobbed bolt, using fan from makerfarm, using springs from your kit. ive run into prints where i just stops feeding in middle of a print and when i check it , the hobbed bolt just ground down the filament,
> steppers are not skipping
> 
> running 245 degrees on .4mm hotend, hexagon


Wow.  Does the filament feed by hand once you get to that point?  Can you push it in further?  Can you pull it out?  Can you tell where it's jamming?  Is it getting stuck in the hot end due to insufficient cooling?  Is it getting stuck in the extruder block?

I  haven't used that filament combo.

You could try adding more  force to the springs with rubber bands or other springs, but on my printer, they're very tight already.  I would be afraid of separating the layers in the hinge with very much more force.

How warm is the room?  Can you tell if the hot ends are overheating?  Can you hold your finger on the fins, or are they uncomfortably warm?  45-50C near the middle of the fins is pretty normal.

----------


## adamfilip

when its printing if i see its jammed, sometimes when i squeeze the idler block it starts to feed again, sometimes i need to push down the filament to give it a kick start.
right now i cant tell where and why its getting stuck. room is warm, right next to furnace, warmest room in house., fins are 50 degrees, stepper is 54 degrees,
rigth now only the right extruder is jamming so im printing on the left, I will take off the nozzle soon to see whats up.

----------


## AbuMaia

Closely inspect your filament, too. I had troubles with jams near the end of a spool of clear ABS caused by occasional bulges in the thickness of the filament. It was too big in some spots to fit into the hotend.

----------


## clough42

> when its printing if i see its jammed, sometimes when i squeeze the idler block it starts to feed again, sometimes i need to push down the filament to give it a kick start.
> right now i cant tell where and why its getting stuck. room is warm, right next to furnace, warmest room in house., fins are 50 degrees, stepper is 54 degrees,
> rigth now only the right extruder is jamming so im printing on the left, I will take off the nozzle soon to see whats up.


One of the characteristics of this design is that the clamping force on the two extruders is always equal, barring some kind of mechanical interference.  Take the springs off and make sure the block moves freely and can close completely to the point where the bearing contacts the bolt or the idler makes contact with the block.  When you feed in filament, it should force the the idler out away from the block.

You might also check to be sure you don't have something broken on the idler block or hinge anchor.  If that's broken or flexing, you might not be getting even clamping force.

You might just try switching your filaments between the left and right extruders to see if the problem follows the filament.  You can also swap the hot ends to see if the problem follows the hot end.  Same with the bolts.  Same with the idlers.  If you swap everything and the problem stays on the right side, check to be sure the filament channel in the block is clear and isn't constricted by some kind of printing imperfection.

Are you using the Pololu 1209 motors, or something else?

----------


## adamfilip

When I move the filament to the other side it prints fine.
I will do some checking and let you know what I find out.
I dont recall what the motors are..

----------


## adamfilip

I took off the hotend, soaked it in acetone, and there was a plug in the cold end, that i removed.. i put in a different abs color and this is what im getting now. odd evenly spaced gaps in extrusion.
i was watching the extruder and idler bearing.. and it seemed to be moving the entire time.

----------


## adamfilip

hmm ive been watching it.. and it does seem to slow down for second 
seems like there is a flat part on the hobbed bolt.. but i dont see it on the bolt itself

----------


## RobH2

Are all of the little grooves in the hobbed bolt clean? I know that sounds too simple like, "my computer won't work....we'll, is it plugged in? My dear old mother actually made that call once and that was the issue. 

 I had a similar issue recently and I had been using some gray filament. About 1/3 of the bolt had material filling the grooves. I didn't notice it as it was the same color as the metal in low light. So when the bolt had that part rotating over the filament, it would not grip and I was getting gaps in a regular pattern. I cleaned the grooves out and I was OK. Believe me, I looked at all the other potential contributors to find the issue before I looked there. 

It might help to diagnose if you print a large flat layer and see if there is any "regular spacing" of the gaps. If so, that might lead to a mechanical failure with the extruder. If it's oddly spaced and intermittent, then that might lead to a hot end, clog issue or filament diameter issue. It really helps diagnose if you can definitively figure out what's "not" contributing to the malfunction.

Edit:

Also, you could put a small mark on the head of the bolt and a mark on the plastic just outside the hobbed bolt. See if they stay lined up. I know it's very unlikely but could the bolt be turning inside the gear?

----------


## adamfilip

i cleaned the hobbed bolt twice and it looks good.
when i pull out the filament and look at the teeth marks the pattern is obvious

----------


## RobH2

Ok, you can eliminate a clogged bolt. 

What about the amps you are driving your stepper with? Have you adjusted the pot on the board? Maybe it's too low and the stepper is not able to generate enough torque. Turn that pot up just a tiny bit clockwise and see if you notice a difference. Don't turn it too high or your stepper will run too hot. It probably should never need to be above 30-40% of its range starting from all the way counter-clockwise. Of course, each machine is a bit different. 

What I do is turn it all the way down. I heat up the extruder and pull the filament out. Then I set a manual extrude of about 200mm at a slow rate, say 2mm/s. As the stepper is turning you'll be able to hold it still and overcome it. Very slowly turn it up until you can't hold it still and it feels really strong. Doing that I found that at a 25% increase clockwise from zero that my motors were strong. Also, having printed a lot since then, I've felt my motors and they do not get hot so I know I'm probably in a good place.

----------


## adamfilip

ive been turning my digi pots down, a bit as the extruder steppers have been kinda hot i have them set to 125 in Marlin
they are strong. i wasnt able to hold it

----------


## RobH2

From what I've read, they can run pretty darn hot, as high as 200C without damaging them. That's hard to believe and I wouldn't do it for long but what if you turned them back up temporarily, say to about 40% and see if the skipping goes away? If it does, then they are just too low. If not, then you can eliminate that too. 

You say that you've been turning them down as they've run too hot. At the same time, you are getting skipping. On the surface it would appear that the turning down and led to the skipping. Maybe not, but I'd try to overdrive the steppers for a little bit and see what happens. Again, I've read that it won't hurt them to overdrive them for a short time. Verify that on your own though. I don't want to hear that I made you ruin your steppers. But, I really do think you'll be ok if you don't go higher than 50% on the pots.

----------


## clough42

> i cleaned the hobbed bolt twice and it looks good.
> when i pull out the filament and look at the teeth marks the pattern is obvious


Ahh...repeating defect.  What's the period?  Does it match the circumference of the bolt?  That would indicate that it is related to the rotation of the bolt.

I wonder if that pulley is striking the head of the other hobbed bolt once per revolution.

If it isn't running straight on the bolt head, that could happen.  If your belts are extremely tight, it could contribute as well.  There's only about a mm of clearance.  If your spacer is upside down or you got the 1mm and 2mm spacers swapped on either bolt, that could spell trouble.

----------


## clough42

> From what I've read, they can run pretty darn hot, as high as 200C without damaging them. That's hard to believe and I wouldn't do it for long but what if you turned them back up temporarily, say to about 40% and see if the skipping goes away? If it does, then they are just too low. If not, then you can eliminate that too. 
> 
> You say that you've been turning them down as they've run too hot. At the same time, you are getting skipping. On the surface it would appear that the turning down and led to the skipping. Maybe not, but I'd try to overdrive the steppers for a little bit and see what happens. Again, I've read that it won't hurt them to overdrive them for a short time. Verify that on your own though. I don't want to hear that I made you ruin your steppers. But, I really do think you'll be ok if you don't go higher than 50% on the pots.


Uhh...I think 200C is unrealistic.  Most stepper motors are rated for "80C temperature rise" which I have understood to mean 100C.  I personally wouldn't run them over 80C.

But in this application, you should be trying to keep them under 60C for sure and better under 50C or they will melt the extruder.

----------


## adamfilip

Im pretty sure its matching the hobbed bolt. once per rev
the bolt heads are not touching the other gears
no rubbing

once i get a few prints done on the working side i will take the hobbed bolt out for a better look.
BTW stepper is running at 52 degrees

----------


## RobH2

> Uhh...I think 200C is unrealistic.  Most stepper motors are rated for "80C temperature rise" which I have understood to mean 100C.  I personally wouldn't run them over 80C.
> 
> But in this application, you should be trying to keep them under 60C for sure and better under 50C or they will melt the extruder.


That's just what I read in the specs for a stepper from a manufacturer. All I was saying was to drive them a little harder to see if the print succeeded and that if they got pretty hot for a few minutes that they'd likely be OK based on the manufacturers claim that they could run at 200C. I was not implying that was a smart thing to do. We've had many discussions here talking about trimming pots down to get cooler motors.

----------


## clough42

> That's just what I read in the specs for a stepper from a manufacturer. All I was saying was to drive them a little harder to see if the print succeeded and that if they got pretty hot for a few minutes that they'd likely be OK based on the manufacturers claim that they could run at 200C. I was not implying that was a smart thing to do. We've had many discussions here talking about trimming pots down to get cooler motors.


No worries.  I'm just thinking about people looking for help with Google who drop into the middle of threads like this and sometimes lack that additional context.

----------


## rhonal89

Can someone tell me. Am ordering http://www.reprapdiscount.com/hotend...otend-set.html and my current i3v 12 I have the 1.75mm and I would love to have the 3mm hexagon also. I would like to know if that combination will work well. Also will I'll be able to print right on top of the other like use 1.75mm filament and then 3mm filament for support or vise versa. Or should I stick with 1.75mm hexagon. One reason is I heard that 3mm filaments prints faster than the 1.75 filament. So I would love one side also for fast printing and the other side for better looking prints.

----------


## sniffle

Then answer is no, both have to be either 1.75 or 3mm.

There are only 1 set numbers in marlin to control the feed rate of both extruders.  Until both extruders can be operated independently they must match

----------


## rhonal89

Thanks! Sniffle.

----------


## mwyrick

> Then answer is no, both have to be either 1.75 or 3mm.
> 
> There are only 1 set numbers in marlin to control the feed rate of both extruders.  Until both extruders can be operated independently they must match


I am running a 1.75mm and a 3mm on the same IBDE.  Using slic3r and setting filament size for each prints fine.  There is only one estep but it is the same value for both, correction is done by changing the filament size and leaving the estep alone.  The hardest part for me is my 1.75 and 3 mm nozzles are not the same length. So getting it level is a pain.

----------


## clough42

> I am running a 1.75mm and a 3mm on the same IBDE.  Using slic3r and setting filament size for each prints fine.  There is only one estep but it is the same value for both, correction is done by changing the filament size and leaving the estep alone.  The hardest part for me is my 1.75 and 3 mm nozzles are not the same length. So getting it level is a pain.


Mwyrick is running a prototype of a mixed block with both filament sizes.  This should work as long as you're not using volumetric extrusion.  If you're using linear extrusion (the default) Marlin doesn't know the diameter of the filament.  Your slicer just needs to know the filament diameters.

If there's interest, I can make the mixed blocks available.

----------


## RobH2

I just wanted to report back. I'm having good results with Ninjaflex with the Itty Bitty. It's recommended that you don't print it faster than 20mm/s and I'm using 15mm/s. The parts are pretty small, around 1" and look pretty nice.

----------


## beerdart

Good info Rob I have a few NinjaFlex parts to print and need to tweek the settings.

----------


## OldSourKraut

> I just wanted to report back. I'm having good results with Ninjaflex with the Itty Bitty. It's recommended that you don't print it faster than 20mm/s and I'm using 15mm/s. The parts are pretty small, around 1" and look pretty nice.


 are you printing with 1.75mm or 3mm ninjaflex?

----------


## stridera

Could you add to the main post all the extra parts and maybe some places on where to source them?

I ordered an extra hexagon from makerfarm.  A couple NEMA 14 stepper motors from pololu, as mentioned earlier, but I'm at a loss of where to find a HXT900 servo.  Also, what Z probe snap switch do you use as well?  It would make it easier for people just getting started to be able to click links to buy stuff.   :Smile:   (I'm not even against you putting referral links so you get paid for your work.)

----------


## clough42

> Could you add to the main post all the extra parts and maybe some places on where to source them?
> 
> I ordered an extra hexagon from makerfarm.  A couple NEMA 14 stepper motors from pololu, as mentioned earlier, but I'm at a loss of where to find a HXT900 servo.  Also, what Z probe snap switch do you use as well?  It would make it easier for people just getting started to be able to click links to buy stuff.    (I'm not even against you putting referral links so you get paid for your work.)


I've been making some updates to my web site today to make sure all of that is clear and included in the instructions.  The complete list of parts with links is here:  http://clough42.com/go/itty-bitty-double-extruder/

If I've missed anything, let me know.

----------


## RobH2

3mm. Clough's design is for that size.

----------


## stridera

Purchased everything and I'll put it together when everything arrives!  Thanks for the help.  The update is perfect.  I wish I had seen the servo when I ordered the part pack to save you having to ship an extra package.  Either way, I can't wait to do the dual prints!

----------


## ChadroG

First, thanks to Clough42 for making the Itty bitty. One look and I knew it was for me! I printed one up, ordered the hardware kit, made a slight mod to the gears by putting side guards on them and thought I was ready to go. That's when I hit my first snag....and it's a big one! I have a MakerFarm i3v 12" with the hexagon hot end. It has worked good, but when I was going to make the change to duals I thought "I'll get better ones". So, I ordered two of the new E3D V6's. Man, are they sweet. But...man are those heat-sinks big! Two of them side by side are too big to fit in the Itty bitty dual as is. I thought of cutting the fins down, but that would ruin some of the heat dissipation the head needs...so no go there. I thought, well I''l just stretch the extruder out and make the room. Well, there's too much going on, when I do that, for my machine to handle and it will crash while trying to merge the objects back to one single item. I guess I'm asking too much from 123D as my machine can hold it's own ( I7, 32 GB of RAM, GTX OC 650i and a SSD). So, I'm stuck using a single extruder (yes I'm running the V6 in it now and not the Hexagon) in my Wade's with a pack of hardware for an extruder I can't use. I still want to go the Itty Bitty route, but I need some help from someone who is better than me and my setup. I'm sorry if this is against the rules or if there is a different place to request such things. Please forgive a first time poster. I would be eternally grateful if someone could make me a .STL ( or any other file type I can open with 123D or Simplify3D (yes I paid that much for slicing software and would again as it is truly awesome)). I would need it to hold two of the E3D V6 ( the 1.75mm Universal models)hot ends running the factory fan shrouds. I want it to run the NEMA 17 motors as well. It will need to go on the i3V 12" MakerFarm that I mentioned earlier, but I can handle the X carriage part. The wiring can come out of the hot ends anyway, so I'm flexible there. I know this can be done, but is beyond what I can pull off at this point. There are several examples of the X carriage on thingiverse, if someone needs a reference. Also, on thingiverse there is a working NEMA 17 motor version of the extruder already out there. The hot end has documentation on E3D's website and there are CAD files for it on GrabCAD as well. Thanks in advance to any kind souls!

----------


## sniffle

wow wall of text...

you aren't the first to request this of C42, there are several of us with E3DV6's and were willing to buy another to test an itty bittyV6... he has some E3D Models, but i don't know if he has made much ground on this.  Will just have to wait and see.

I've also considered building my own.  It will just take a little time for me to actually get it going as i am working on converting his single extruder cooling solution over to the E3DV6. :-)

Once's that's done... maybe...  I just can't remake his work on this one, he worked too hard on this for me to rightfully do so.

----------


## clough42

> First, thanks to Clough42 for making the Itty bitty. One look and I knew it was for me! I printed one up, ordered the hardware kit, made a slight mod to the gears by putting side guards on them and thought I was ready to go. That's when I hit my first snag....and it's a big one! I have a MakerFarm i3v 12" with the hexagon hot end. It has worked good, but when I was going to make the change to duals I thought "I'll get better ones". So, I ordered two of the new E3D V6's. Man, are they sweet. But...man are those heat-sinks big! Two of them side by side are too big to fit in the Itty bitty dual as is. I thought of cutting the fins down, but that would ruin some of the heat dissipation the head needs...so no go there. I thought, well I''l just stretch the extruder out and make the room. Well, there's too much going on, when I do that, for my machine to handle and it will crash while trying to merge the objects back to one single item. I guess I'm asking too much from 123D as my machine can hold it's own ( I7, 32 GB of RAM, GTX OC 650i and a SSD). So, I'm stuck using a single extruder (yes I'm running the V6 in it now and not the Hexagon) in my Wade's with a pack of hardware for an extruder I can't use. I still want to go the Itty Bitty route, but I need some help from someone who is better than me and my setup. I'm sorry if this is against the rules or if there is a different place to request such things. Please forgive a first time poster. I would be eternally grateful if someone could make me a .STL ( or any other file type I can open with 123D or Simplify3D (yes I paid that much for slicing software and would again as it is truly awesome)). I would need it to hold two of the E3D V6 ( the 1.75mm Universal models)hot ends running the factory fan shrouds. I want it to run the NEMA 17 motors as well. It will need to go on the i3V 12" MakerFarm that I mentioned earlier, but I can handle the X carriage part. The wiring can come out of the hot ends anyway, so I'm flexible there. I know this can be done, but is beyond what I can pull off at this point. There are several examples of the X carriage on thingiverse, if someone needs a reference. Also, on thingiverse there is a working NEMA 17 motor version of the extruder already out there. The hot end has documentation on E3D's website and there are CAD files for it on GrabCAD as well. Thanks in advance to any kind souls!


I don't like to pre-announce usually, because my time is limited, and I don't want to commit to something that may take a while to finish.

That said, I am working on a modified version of the dual that will support e3d got ends (27mm spacing) and flexible filament.

It will use the same hardware, so there shouldn't be anything more to buy to get it working.

I have the first prototype printed, but I don't have the x carriage designed yet.  It won't fit between the brackets on a normal Makerfarm carriage due to the wider hot ends.

If you are interested in testing early prototypes, pm me with an email address and we'll chat.  I'm committed to keeping this open source, but I want to make sure it's good before it gets into the wild and too many people start trying to build it.

----------


## Poindexter

I'm having difficulty setting my pot for one of the steppers. It is either too low and the motor skips or it is too high and I get an intermittent response from the motor. The other stepper driver does this as well, however there is at least a window of functionality. Does this sound like a stepper driver problem or maybe a motor problem?

P.S. this happens without any filament as well

----------


## voodoo28

Im having the same issue but I use the Rambo board. it doesnt matter what i set it to on the digi pots , it still skips. I can hold with my finger tips softly and make it skip.



> I'm having difficulty setting my pot for one of the steppers. It is either too low and the motor skips or it is too high and I get an intermittent response from the motor. The other stepper driver does this as well, however there is at least a window of functionality. Does this sound like a stepper driver problem or maybe a motor problem?
> 
> P.S. this happens without any filament as well

----------


## clough42

I'm at a loss on this one.  I'm running three of these motors on RRD and StepStick drivers and I've never seen this.

How fast are you stepping?  I'm assuming it's slow?

----------


## voodoo28

I contacted Pololu support, and it appears that my motor might actually be defective. I'm Still awaiting their response for the exchange. Just seems weird that No matter what Voltage setting i use in Marlin 100 - 255(max) it still skips with slight pressure of resistance, Clough are you able to make your motors skip by applying some resistance by hand?



> I'm at a loss on this one.  I'm running three of these motors on RRD and StepStick drivers and I've never seen this.
> 
> How fast are you stepping?  I'm assuming it's slow?

----------


## clough42

I can make them skip, of course, but I have to apply some pressure.  I don't know how to characterize the pressure, except to say that it seems reasonable to me.  I have my current set to .75A (.31V measured on the Pololu driver pot).

Do the coils on your motor ohm out correctly?  They should be 2.7 ohms each.

Voodoo28 and I have been exchanging PMs over the last few days about his difficulties with PLA, so I ran a 5.5 hour test with MakerFarm PLA on my printer, just to make sure I'm not going crazy.  I usually print ABS.  Here's a time-lapse of the print:

----------


## voodoo28

Im going to check the omhs reading tonight when i get home. Each coil should give me a reading of 2.7 ohms? The Rambo board doesnt have Adjustable pots instead its controlled digitally through Marlin on a scale from 100 - 255. Marlin specifies (135 = .75a). If i set it to anything lower than 135...If i sneeze it will skip. All my other motors are set from MakerFarm to 100. I dont think the issue is solely related to PLA at this point.

What feed rate are you using in the slicer? im using the defaults from Marlin and Simplyfy3d. Perhaps thats where an issue lies...At this point anything is possible...lol 



> I can make them skip, of course, but I have to apply some pressure.  I don't know how to characterize the pressure, except to say that it seems reasonable to me.  I have my current set to .75A (.31V measured on the Pololu driver pot).
> 
> Do the coils on your motor ohm out correctly?  They should be 2.7 ohms each.

----------


## clough42

> Im going to check the omhs reading tonight when i get home. Each coil should give me a reading of 2.7 ohms? The Rambo board doesnt have Adjustable pots instead its controlled digitally through Marlin on a scale from 100 - 255. Marlin specifies (135 = .75a). If i set it to anything lower than 135...If i sneeze it will skip. All my other motors are set from MakerFarm to 100. I dont think the issue is solely related to PLA at this point.
> 
> What feed rate are you using in the slicer? im using the defaults from Marlin and Simplyfy3d. Perhaps thats where an issue lies...At this point anything is possible...lol


Yes.  2.7 ohms.

I'm printing at 100 mm/s maximum.

----------


## voodoo28

wow...40 mm/s wouldnt even work for me, much less 100.



> Yes.  2.7 ohms.
> 
> I'm printing at 100 mm/s maximum.

----------


## voodoo28

Im getting 2.7 ohms from both coils...
Crap....I dont know what else to do.

----------


## printbus

Maybe try configuring for less micro-stepping? Does your board support that? If so, that should give you more torque.

----------


## voodoo28

You mean Change it from 16 to 8?

----------


## printbus

Yes. Might not help enough, but it'd be something to try.

----------


## voodoo28

:Frown: ..Yup, just did...no go.

----------


## printbus

Did you also reduce the steps per mm by one half as well?

----------


## voodoo28

i have them set to 644.2
should i go to 322.1?

...never mind ,tried that just now and still same.

I wonder is it me? 
I am able to make it skip while holding the shaft.. How much torque does 20 oz really feel like? 
If the motor is active and set to the same values you guys have (100) I can turn the shaft just as easy as if the motor was off..

----------


## printbus

Ok, well it was an idea.

----------


## kd7eir

Extruder question -

I have both extruders wired as follows BLK->1A, GRN->1B, RED->2A, BLU->2B. This matches what Polulo recommends - Coil A=BLK, Coil C=GRN, Coil B=RED, Coil D=BLU. Neither of the extruders will move. If I plug my old NEMA17 extruder in it works fine. Continuity test indicates that the wiring is correct. Any suggestions?

----------


## clough42

> The short answer, if you're using the Pololu 1209 motor is that I have them wired blue-red-green-black.  You may have to flip the connector if the motor turns the wrong way.
> 
> In general, a four-lead stepper motor has two coils.  You can use an ohmmeter or continuity tester to figure out which wires are connected to the same coil.  On the Pololu motor, you'll find that the blue and red wires are connected to one coil and the black and green wires are connected to the other
> 
> You can also figure it out with no tools.  If you connect two wires from the same coil together, the motor will get harder to turn by hand and you will know you've found a pair.
> 
> Once you figure out the coils, just connect the wires in order, the two wires from one coil, followed by the two wires from the other cool.  Order doesn't matter, except to change the motor direction.  If your motor turns the wrong way, just turn the whole connector around on the board.
> 
> Pro tip: if you need to extend your motor wires, Makerfarm has motor extensions really cheap.  As in cheap enough that I buy ten or twenty every time I place an order, just for the wire.





> Extruder question -
> 
> I have both extruders wired as follows BLK->1A, GRN->1B, RED->2A, BLU->2B. This matches what Polulo recommends - Coil A=BLK, Coil C=GRN, Coil B=RED, Coil D=BLU. Neither of the extruders will move. If I plug my old NEMA17 extruder in it works fine. Continuity test indicates that the wiring is correct. Any suggestions?


I quoted my previous comment on motor wiring above.  Black-Green-Red-Blue should be right.

You should be able to resist the motor or turn it by hand when it's parked, but it should be way harder than when it's disconnected.  You can try shorting black and green together and trying to turn by hand.  Same with red and blue.  In either case, it should get harder to turn.

If you can plug your old extruder into the same port and it turns, but the 1209 motors won't turn--even without a belt on--it seems like it would have to be the motor or the wiring.  I can't imagine what else could be causing it.

Just to confirm:  You have two 1209 motors, and they're behaving the same?

Next step might be to upload photos or video of your setup to see if anyone else notices anything.

Are you near anyone else who could lend you parts for testing?  Do you have a RAMPS board or know someone with one who would let you plug in a motor to see how it turns?  Heck, if you want to send me a motor, I'll be happy to test it for you.  This stuff is tough to do by yourself.

----------


## kd7eir

Connecting blk/grn and red/blu together does result in the motor being harder to turn. Tomorrow I will remove the belt and see if that changes anything. The motors are very easy to turn with the belt in place, so I don't think that is a cause, but I need to test everything. I can buy a new RAMPS board if necessary, but I think that is not necessary since the original extruder motor works just fine.

----------


## Multiplxd

Just wanted to throw my hat in the ring, I've finally got all the parts on hand and I should hopefully be putting together my itty bitty this weekend. Thank you Clough for putting together what is a much more affordable dual extruder than just about anything else out there that I've seen.

When I bought this machine back in September I grabbed a RRD fan extender at the same time with the hopes of upgrading to dual extrusion in the future. It worked for awhile, however there seemed to be a short of some kind and the board stopped working. While I was contemplating ordering another for this kit, I like many others here was a bit bitter that I lost two of the servo pins and ended up spending the evening last night designing a MOSFET breakout board that connects to the servo pins via servo cables and provides you with up to 4 MOSFET channels, which also includes a 40mm fan mount for cooling, all of course without blocking any of the servo ports. I'll be ordering the parts this weekend will report back with how it worked out if you guys are interested.

----------


## kd7eir

I plugged the extruder motors into the Z motor connectors and they worked perfectly. Replaced the stepper driver and the extruder motors still did not work plugged into the E0/E1 connectors. I ordered a new Mega and RAMPS board. I will install them tomorrow and hopefully all will be well.

----------


## Poindexter

> Just wanted to throw my hat in the ring, I've finally got all the parts on hand and I should hopefully be putting together my itty bitty this weekend. Thank you Clough for putting together what is a much more affordable dual extruder than just about anything else out there that I've seen.
> 
> When I bought this machine back in September I grabbed a RRD fan extender at the same time with the hopes of upgrading to dual extrusion in the future. It worked for awhile, however there seemed to be a short of some kind and the board stopped working. While I was contemplating ordering another for this kit, I like many others here was a bit bitter that I lost two of the servo pins and ended up spending the evening last night designing a MOSFET breakout board that connects to the servo pins via servo cables and provides you with up to 4 MOSFET channels, which also includes a 40mm fan mount for cooling, all of course without blocking any of the servo ports. I'll be ordering the parts this weekend will report back with how it worked out if you guys are interested.


There is a work-around to access the the two servo pins that are blocked by the fan extender. You can solder wires to the solder points on the fan extender board above the pins that aren't being used. If you use this method you will have to jumper the 5V pin below to send power to those pins. I used this method to power my servo when I couldn't figure out how to power it off of the AUX-2 section. Since you already designed an alternative this may not be of much help to you but hopefully someone else might find it handy. BTW, work-around courtesy C42.

----------


## kd7eir

OK, I got my new Mega and RAMPS board today. Exact same behavior - extruders work if plugged into X, Y, or Z drivers, NOTHING works when plugged into either of the extruder drivers. I have switched out all stepper drivers, including exchanging the working X, Y, and Z drivers with the extruder position. I have reloaded Marlin several times to no avail. I have even reloaded the original MakerFarm Marlin just to see if I could get one extruder to work - nothing.   I am now completely stumped.

----------


## sniffle

Are the correct pins called in pins.h for the extruders?  Dunno shot in the dark throwing my .02 in to try and help...

----------


## clough42

> OK, I got my new Mega and RAMPS board today. Exact same behavior - extruders work if plugged into X, Y, or Z drivers, NOTHING works when plugged into either of the extruder drivers. I have switched out all stepper drivers, including exchanging the working X, Y, and Z drivers with the extruder position. I have reloaded Marlin several times to no avail. I have even reloaded the original MakerFarm Marlin just to see if I could get one extruder to work - nothing.   I am now completely stumped.


Same jumpers on the board under the drivers?

Change the text in Configuration.h that shows on the LCD just to be absolutely sure you're getting new firmware loaded.

----------


## kd7eir

> Same jumpers on the board under the drivers?
> 
> Change the text in Configuration.h that shows on the LCD just to be absolutely sure you're getting new firmware loaded.


Embarrassment time. The extruder will not turn unless the hot end is at a minimum temperature. I was testing piecemeal, without the hot end preheated. Thank you to everyone that offered their help - sorry for the red herring.

----------


## AbuMaia

At least you now have a backup RAMPS.  :Smile:

----------


## kd7eir

> At least you now have a backup RAMPS.


That is true! Been meaning to do that anyway.

----------


## clough42

> Embarrassment time. The extruder will not turn unless the hot end is at a minimum temperature. I was testing piecemeal, without the hot end preheated. Thank you to everyone that offered their help - sorry for the red herring.


So glad to hear that.  Thank you for sharing.  I help a lot of people troubleshoot these things, and I will add that to my list of things to check.  I have been bitten by that before, and didn't even think of it this time.

----------


## Poindexter

> Embarrassment time. The extruder will not turn unless the hot end is at a minimum temperature. I was testing piecemeal, without the hot end preheated. Thank you to everyone that offered their help - sorry for the red herring.


Command M302 allows cold extrudes.

----------


## sniffle

i got the last of my parts ordered in preparation for the E3D double extruder :-D

----------


## voodoo28

A new motor did it for me...apparently it was defective..Printing calibration cube now....Also installed E3d hot end.

----------


## clough42

> A new motor did it for me...apparently it was defective..Printing calibration cube now....Also installed E3d hot end.


Awesome.  Glad to hear it's working for you.

----------


## sniffle

Motors came in today, just waiting on the hobbed bolt and i'll be ready for Testing :-)

----------


## clough42

> Motors came in today, just waiting on the hobbed bolt and i'll be ready for Testing :-)


Let me know if there's any way I can help.

----------


## sniffle

> Let me know if there's any way I can help.


Just waiting on your e3d variant of the ibde and my hobbed bolt was supposed to be delivered last wed... So i am just waitijg out the required days to file a claim with usps.

----------


## Gogomjdevil

Hi, I'm having an issue when it comes to the ABL.  I've had it before (I used Zenmasters ABL when it came out) but the new probe for the IBDE catches on the glass and doesn't retract all the way.

Is there a way to have it lift before retracting?

----------


## clough42

> Hi, I'm having an issue when it comes to the ABL.  I've had it before (I used Zenmasters ABL when it came out) but the new probe for the IBDE catches on the glass and doesn't retract all the way.
> 
> Is there a way to have it lift before retracting?


Yes.  There's a link to firmware in the first post of this thread, with a configuration.h file for the double extruder.  You'll need to tune the Z offset, of course.

This is a fork of the beckdac fork of Marlin, with Roxy's enhancements, including lifting before retracting the probe.  My fork just adds config files for my extruders.

----------


## Gogomjdevil

> Yes.  There's a link to firmware in the first post of this thread, with a configuration.h file for the double extruder.  You'll need to tune the Z offset, of course.
> 
> This is a fork of the beckdac fork of Marlin, with Roxy's enhancements, including lifting before retracting the probe.  My fork just adds config files for my extruders.


That's what I'm using. It lifts before retracting when it does a homing routine, but when I run a g29 it doesn't lift to retract and ends up getting stuck.  I set the firmware to lift it higher before each time the probe moves and that works up until the last probe. It gets stuck there.


Thank you for your help though. I really appreciate it.

EDIT: Well...I feel silly.  I had the screws holding the end stop facing the hot end. I moved them to the other side and apparently that was what was causing it to bind.

----------


## avluis

I have been meaning to put together my IBDE for a few days now but I have to wait for two .3mm hexagon nozzles (yes, I broke one off somehow) so I am on the stock configuration as I await with anticipation (will have to order a hexagon block as well if I can't get a bit of brass left by the broken nozzle).

But (of course) I am having a bit of trouble managing to print the double hexagon shroud and (to a certain extent) the part cooling double shroud;
- I cannot manage to remove this part without breaking it (LOL) under a 0.2mm layer height setting so I printed it under 0.3mm and managed not to break it:
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/xmgcu6c9o...-L3FF8T5Y_dzPa
Looking for tips on how to manage a strong 0.2mm layer height (I would love to get a good slic3r config, might as well).

- As for the part cooling double shroud, I think I may be extruding too much filament;
The part that interlocks with the IBDE (the shroud mount) came out a bit bigger than expected (or is this expected - just need to shave it down I guess).

All of my parts (so far) have been printed with Black ABS from MakerFarm.

----------


## clough42

> I have been meaning to put together my IBDE for a few days now but I have to wait for two .3mm hexagon nozzles (yes, I broke one off somehow) so I am on the stock configuration as I await with anticipation (will have to order a hexagon block as well if I can't get a bit of brass left by the broken nozzle).
> 
> But (of course) I am having a bit of trouble managing to print the double hexagon shroud and (to a certain extent) the part cooling double shroud;
> - I cannot manage to remove this part without breaking it (LOL) under a 0.2mm layer height setting so I printed it under 0.3mm and managed not to break it:
> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/xmgcu6c9o...-L3FF8T5Y_dzPa
> Looking for tips on how to manage a strong 0.2mm layer height (I would love to get a good slic3r config, might as well).
> 
> - As for the part cooling double shroud, I think I may be extruding too much filament;
> The part that interlocks with the IBDE (the shroud mount) came out a bit bigger than expected (or is this expected - just need to shave it down I guess).
> ...


What slicer are you using?

The wall thickness on those parts is 1.2mm, which yields excellent results with a .4mm nozzle, .2mm layers and Slic3r 1.1.7 stable.  It generates a perimeter on each side and fills in the space between them, resulting in a very solid part.  I have found that Slic3r 1.2.6 experimental gives very different results.  It generates just the two parallel perimeter walls, with no fill to connect them.  The resulting part is very flexible and brittle.

Are you getting two walls that peel apart easily?

If so, you might try a different slicer or changing the extrusion width to get a good join between the walls.  It sounds like increasing the layer height also resulted in a better part?

----------


## avluis

You are dead on about slic3r 1.2.6 - I love the speed at which it slices but it is leaving no infill between the inner walls as you mentioned.
I'll go ahead and try those settings with 1.1.7.

Is 40% infill sufficient to get a good and strong part?
I'm thinking about printing a few parts with support material just to give me a stronger bond while removing it off the printer.

----------


## stridera

I've been having issues as well.  Maybe it's just me but the parts seem far too brittle for me.  Not to mention it cracked far too easily on the layers.

Also, it looks like the parts are cooling too quickly?  (I'm using Makerfarm ABS.)  I'm using the latest slicer with makerfarms config.  Any advice?  (Attached images for reference)

I was thinking of getting a heat lamp and having it shine on the print, think this would help?

----------


## sniffle

> I've been having issues as well.  Maybe it's just me but the parts seem far too brittle for me.  Not to mention it cracked far too easily on the layers.
> 
> Also, it looks like the parts are cooling too quickly?  (I'm using Makerfarm ABS.)  I'm using the latest slicer with makerfarms config.  Any advice?  (Attached images for reference)
> 
> I was thinking of getting a heat lamp and having it shine on the print, think this would help?



That looks like warping, i would suggest trying to prevent drafts and also increase your hotend/bed temps, it will help with intralayer adhesion, but wont prevent warping which a cardboard box iver the printer or just something surrounding the printer to prevent drafts from hittng the print will help.

A heatlamp might work but it wont prevent sudden shrinkage from a draft blowing across the part.  the trick to ABS is preventing any part of it to cool before it as a whole cools together.  so that it can shrink all at once.

----------


## stridera

I'm using Slicer 0.9.9 (which colin says to use because anything past that will cause problems.)  

Is this an issue?

----------


## clough42

> I'm using Slicer 0.9.9 (which colin says to use because anything past that will cause problems.)  
> 
> Is this an issue?


Yeah...he says that.  I get the best results with 1.1.7.  .4mm nozzle, .2mm layers, 40% infill.

Is that a .4mm nozzle?

The other thing that sometimes causes a mess with the fan shrouds is bed adhesion.  If the bottom pops off the bed before the part is done, it shifts, showing horizontal offsets like in your photos.  More hair spr s y, maybe.  Bed temp at 110 and nozzle at 250 (hexagon).

For best results, keep all stray air off the bed while printing,  AND provide carefully controlled air with a print cooling fan after about 4-5mm of height to prevent d r ooping.  I know...It's rough.  You're still trying to print the parts to help control the air.

----------


## stridera

Yup, I have the .4mm nozzle.  I had it set to 60% infil with .2mm layers.  I reprinted with support material and the curved parts at the top looked great, however, the straight sides were still brittle.  I'm thinking if I make the double the layers maybe?  It looks like it goes from thin to sturdy near the top.  I didn't take pictures of my latest print.  (Cracked the side walls while trying to clean off the raft.

Do you do print cooling on both abs and pla?

----------


## usarmyaircav

I could be wrong, I have really only been printing 4 months or so, but I don't think it is typical for people printing ABS to use a print cooling fan.  I have only done ABS so far and have not used a fan.  I think it would be counter productive as ABS loves to lift off the bed at the corners, and a print fan would probably aggravate that.

----------


## gmay3

I agree with you usarmyaircav. I got similar cracks between layers when my fan accidentally turned on during an ABS print. I'm sure there are some circumstance where you would want the fan on for a short time when printing ABS (maybe during long bridging?) but generally I would try it with the fan off and see if this improves your results.

----------


## avluis

After a few prints with rafts and auto support (and slic3r 1.1.7), I now have the trouble parts printed out with much improved internal integrity.
Here is the part cooling double fan shroud with a raft:
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/4t6kha248...aCPooOWVoXKpta

I was even playing it dangerously:
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rj0mbijty...bkNx20r5Ii9pea
But it turned out ok in the end (if you know how to measure your filament...):
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/e4tq77gqy...p79oJu9aAtGoha

I also printed out the double hexagon fan shroud and the single for comparison (and backup):
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/yg6ipjz5r...WKVboHb-D-37qa
Very pleased with how much stronger the parts were with slic3r 1.1.7 - so thanks goes to clough42 for his tips (and his Itty Bitty Double Extruder and his other parts in general)~

----------


## stridera

Awesome.  Downloading slic3r 1.1.7 now  :Smile:

----------


## clough42

> Yup, I have the .4mm nozzle.  I had it set to 60% infil with .2mm layers.  I reprinted with support material and the curved parts at the top looked great, however, the straight sides were still brittle.  I'm thinking if I make the double the layers maybe?  It looks like it goes from thin to sturdy near the top.  I didn't take pictures of my latest print.  (Cracked the side walls while trying to clean off the raft.
> 
> Do you do print cooling on both abs and pla?


I typically use print cooling with ABS on parts like this,  to the overhang angles thin walls.  I use print cooling all the time with PLA.

----------


## clough42

> I could be wrong, I have really only been printing 4 months or so, but I don't think it is typical for people printing ABS to use a print cooling fan.  I have only done ABS so far and have not used a fan.  I think it would be counter productive as ABS loves to lift off the bed at the corners, and a print fan would probably aggravate that.


It's a trade-off.  The cooling fan gives you much more precise prints, with better overhangs and tighter bridges.  But you're right, it can also increase warping.  It all depends on the parts.  Solid parts with long, straight filament strands the length of the part between 5 and 10mm up from the bed are the worst for warping.  Parts with lots of holes don't warp as much because there isn't as much force caused by shrinking of these long filaments up high.

So...you want print cooling if you have small details, significant overhangs layers with very short build times so they don't solidify and get mushy, or even if the hot end spends a lot of time over one spot, keeping it hot with radiant heat.

You don't want print cooling if you have a big part with long filament strands that's very prone to warping.

To reduce the warping, you can make sure you have good adhesion (good hairspray formula, application technique and bed temperature, or some other magical formula like PEI or 3d-eze).  Then, you need to keep stray drafts and spill air off the bed.  This could come from outside the printer or from hot end or electronics cooling fans.  Keep the fan off for the first 5-20 layers, depending on the needs of the individual part, and then try to keep the air focused on the part that needs cooling.

My hot end and fan systems are designed to keep stray air off the bed, and to focus the print cooling air right where it's needed.

But...your mileage may vary.  Different parts respond very differently.  For example, if your part requires the hot end to stay in one spot, dropping lots of detail close together, the cooling fan works great.  But if the hot end drops something droopy and then quickly moves to the other side of the part, the cooling air goes with it, and it doesn't really help much.

----------


## avluis

Woohoo! Almost done:
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/aeoi401io...MNRDYGDIyEa3ma

But time for some sleep.
--
Besides what is mentioned on the first post, is there anything else I need to be on the lookout while making the final wiring touches and then moving on to Marlin?
--

*Edit*:
All installed, time to celebrate. I'm also testing a commit for Marlin (which raises Z Axis after Probing - didn't Roxy have something like this?) so I threw it on a video for them to look at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNtTYOOITH8

Time to configure slic3r and start calibrations.

----------


## clough42

> Woohoo! Almost done:
> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/aeoi401io...MNRDYGDIyEa3ma
> 
> But time for some sleep.
> --
> Besides what is mentioned on the first post, is there anything else I need to be on the lookout while making the final wiring touches and then moving on to Marlin?
> --
> 
> *Edit*:
> ...


Looking good.

Yes.  There are a couple of forks out there.  I'm not sure what has made it back to the master Marlin code.

 Beckdac's fork with Roxy's changes is here:  https://github.com/beckdac/Marlin

And my fork of that with branches preconfigured for my extruders is here:  https://github.com/clough42/Marlin

----------


## sniffle

> Looking good.
> 
> Yes.  There are a couple of forks out there.  I'm not sure what has made it back to the master Marlin code.
> 
>  Beckdac's fork with Roxy's changes is here:  https://github.com/beckdac/Marlin
> 
> And my fork of that with branches preconfigured for my extruders is here:  https://github.com/clough42/Marlin


At this point Roxy's g29 enhancements and z probe repeatability have been merged into the main trunk of marlin :-)

----------


## clough42

> At this point Roxy's g29 enhancements and z probe repeatability have been merged into the main trunk of marlin :-)


And the lift before retract?

----------


## sniffle

I don't think so on that one... But if a pull request has been submitted by alvuis then there is no real reason for them to not commit it

edit:

there was a pull request for z raise after probing that had not been merged last night.  It has been merged as of this morning so with that everything should be merged in.

----------


## clough42

> I don't think so on that one... But if a pull request has been submitted by alvuis then there is no real reason for them to not commit it
> 
> edit:
> 
> there was a pull request for z raise after probing that had not been merged last night.  It has been merged as of this morning so with that everything should be merged in.


Uhh...yeah.  I'm probably going to wait a bit before telling people to pull and use that firmware.  The comments at the end of the issue thread are not super encouraging:

https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marlin/issues/1507
I'll probably keep my own fork active for the time being.  I get a lot of questions about ABL and double extruder setup and most of the folks I help aren't ready to jump into the tip-of-master fray on an active development project.  Once things settle down, I may rebase onto the active Marlin tree.

I wrote up some instructions to try to address the repeated questions about firmware setup:

http://clough42.com/go/marlin-firmware-setup
Comments are always appreciated.

----------


## sniffle

I never said I was using it I just saw that it was merged :-D

----------


## avluis

> Uhh...yeah.  I'm probably going to wait a bit before telling people to pull and use that firmware.  The comments at the end of the issue thread are not super encouraging:https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marlin/issues/1507
> I'll probably keep my own fork active for the time being.  I get a lot of questions about ABL and double extruder setup and most of the folks I help aren't ready to jump into the tip-of-master fray on an active development project.  Once things settle down, I may rebase onto the active Marlin tree.
> 
> I wrote up some instructions to try to address the repeated questions about firmware setup:http://clough42.com/go/marlin-firmware-setup
> Comments are always appreciated.


I have to say I agree with this - a few bugs are cropping up from all the merges without prior testing of possible configurations.
It's getting a bit annoying actually.
I believe they are also separating non-configurable defines in the Configuration.h file (that should not have been in there in the first place) into a separate file - so far they haven't moved out anything that should not be moved (with new coders comes new methodology, sometimes bad for an Open Source project like Marlin).

--

I like the firmware page, it's a really good page to get people started.
All (I believe) we need now is a good slic3r config page for dual extrusion - meaning;
What should I have on my starter g-code?
Should I put the X offset in the firmware or slic3r?
Which extruder should I be using for support and/or perimeters?
Should I be using ooze prevention?
Etc.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

Got the itty bitty installed finally. Next up get everything plugged into the Ramps and switch over the firmware.  Already set up a double spool holder.  I used molex plugs for the connections, I could plug my old extruder back in if I needed to.  

Terrible cell phone pic:

----------


## clough42

> Got the itty bitty installed finally. Next up get everything plugged into the Ramps and switch over the firmware.  Already set up a double spool holder.  I used molex plugs for the connections, I could plug my old extruder back in if I needed to.  
> 
> Terrible cell phone pic:


That's looking great.  Is that a surface plate?  Overkill is underrated.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

What's on the floor is a piece of 3/8" borosilicate from McMaster - for those times when nothing but flat as f___ will do.

The "workbench" is a beat down end table from Ikea.  

I do have a granite plate in the shop which I glue sandpaper to and use for sharpening.

----------


## clough42

> I have to say I agree with this - a few bugs are cropping up from all the merges without prior testing of possible configurations.
> It's getting a bit annoying actually.
> I believe they are also separating non-configurable defines in the Configuration.h file (that should not have been in there in the first place) into a separate file - so far they haven't moved out anything that should not be moved (with new coders comes new methodology, sometimes bad for an Open Source project like Marlin).
> 
> --
> 
> I like the firmware page, it's a really good page to get people started.
> All (I believe) we need now is a good slic3r config page for dual extrusion - meaning;
> What should I have on my starter g-code?
> ...


Yeah.  The slic3r page is on my list of things to write.  Also wiring connections.

----------


## clough42

> What's on the floor is a piece of 3/8" borosilicate from McMaster - for those times when nothing but flat as f___ will do.
> 
> The "workbench" is a beat down end table from Ikea.  
> 
> I do have a granite plate in the shop which I glue sandpaper to and use for sharpening.


I use a granite surface plate to to check brushless motor shafts for straightness after unplanned "landings".  My RC planes have this annoying habit of sometimes trying to fly underground.

----------


## voodoo28

im very familiar with this trend.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


> I use a granite surface plate to to check brushless motor shafts for straightness after unplanned "landings".  My RC planes have this annoying habit of sometimes trying to fly underground.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

fired up the C42IBD.  Loaded up filament and went through the adjustments.  Took me a few tries to get used to dual extruders in slicer but figured it out.  Extruders, Hex hotends and everything worked very well.  Happy.  going to bed.

----------


## sniffle

you know what i use my dual for the most... 

printing with another filament so that i don't have to change it out :-P

----------


## clough42

> you know what i use my dual for the most... 
> 
> printing with another filament so that i don't have to change it out :-P


Nice.  Lazy and awesome.  Gotta admire that.  How are you selecting the second extruder for a single material print?

----------


## sniffle

Using S3D, I just choose T1 as the tool to use, instead of T0

----------


## jasay

Anyone using the NEMA 17 version know how long a motor you can get away with?  I have a stack of 47mm long body NEMA 17s and it looks like the MakerFarm ones from the printer kit are 45mm that I could probably switch out.  Would either of these work with RobH's modified extruder body or should I grab some of the NEMA 14s that clough42 lists?  I have vague memories of reading somewhere that 40mm may be the limit, but confirmation would be nice.

----------


## debovine

Regarding the flexible filament, I took sreid55's suggestion to print the 3mm body and bore it out for a 4mmOD/2mmID PTFE tube. I won't lie, there may have been some cursing and throwing of stuff while trying to get the tube rammed through the channel, but I finally got worked through once I stuck in some ABS filament bolster the tubing. 
Since then, I haven't done anything large, but my small test prints using PolyFlex and ABS have turned out well. 

I'm still getting some dribbling to the side, and the filament develops a pretty significant dent at the pinch between the hobbed bolt and idler. It printed just fine despite the dent.

----------


## clough42

> Regarding the flexible filament, I took sreid55's suggestion to print the 3mm body and bore it out for a 4mmOD/2mmID PTFE tube. I won't lie, there may have been some cursing and throwing of stuff while trying to get the tube rammed through the channel, but I finally got worked through once I stuck in some ABS filament bolster the tubing. 
> Since then, I haven't done anything large, but my small test prints using PolyFlex and ABS have turned out well. 
> 
> I'm still getting some dribbling to the side, and the filament develops a pretty significant dent at the pinch between the hobbed bolt and idler. It printed just fine despite the dent.


Yeah...The long, curved filament path is tough for flexible filament, and the strong clamp force is tuned for harder filament.

I'm working on it.  Stay tuned.

----------


## debovine

Oh, none of that was a complaint, I've been nothing but happy with the Itty Bitty Double. Even as-is, the flexy stuff is printing really well, I just wanted to provide data. 

Keep up the excellent work, Sir!

Your new biggest fan =D

----------


## sniffle

oh just wait till you see whats next :-)

----------


## voodoo28

I second that! 


> oh just wait till you see whats next :-)

----------


## TechMasterJoe

make PTFE liner versions 
it helps a lot i drilled out the stock maker farm and put a PTFE tube all the way to the hobbed bolt down to the hotend made a big impact for me but i'm running 1.75mm
i have everything but steppers and down time for the Itty Bitty Double

----------


## clough42

> make PTFE liner versions 
> it helps a lot i drilled out the stock maker farm and put a PTFE tube all the way to the hobbed bolt down to the hotend made a big impact for me but i'm running 1.75mm
> i have everything but steppers and down time for the Itty Bitty Double


Which PTFE solution are you using?  Many folks seem like the e3dV6 1.75mm with the longer going all the way down into the hot end.  Which tubing are you using?

----------


## misquamacus

> Which PTFE solution are you using?  Many folks seem like the e3dV6 1.75mm with the longer going all the way down into the hot end.  Which tubing are you using?


I third TechMasterJoe and debovine on this. My current setup for 1.75mm filament uses a drilled out Greg's with E3D's PTFE (4mm OD, 2mm ID) going all the way through and into the v6. Liners are the way to go, at least for 1.75mm filament.

----------


## AbuMaia

I kinda do that with my E3Dv6, but instead of one continuous tubing, I cut it off at the bottom of the extruder. One length from the hobbed bolt to the bottom of the extruder, then another length inside the v6. It makes maintenance easier, having the hotend separate from the extruder.

----------


## debovine

I have hexagon hot ends, the PTFE tubes start flush with the hobbed bolts and butt against the tops of the hot ends.

----------


## clough42

> I have hexagon hot ends, the PTFE tubes start flush with the hobbed bolts and butt against the tops of the hot ends.


What diameter?  I'm trying to figure out what diameter people are using with 3mm filament.  I've seen various PTFE tubing sizes advertised.  Usually, it looks like people are using 4mm ID, 6mm OD tubing with 3mm filament, but that seems like way too much slop to print flexible filaments, like NinjaFlex.  I would think you would want a finished diameter much closer to 3.2mm.

----------


## debovine

I use 1.75mm filament. I used your 3mm body, and drilled it out to 4mm to fit the 4mmOD/2mmID PTFE tube and its been smooth as silk, even with the floppy PolyFlex I'm using.

----------


## clough42

> I use 1.75mm filament. I used your 3mm body, and drilled it out to 4mm to fit the 4mmOD/2mmID PTFE tube and its been smooth as silk, even with the floppy PolyFlex I'm using.


 Got it.  Thanks.

----------


## clough42

Well, it's finally ready.  I just started a new thread for the Itty Bitty Double FLEX Extruder:
http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.p...-FLEX-Extruder
This new extruder builds on the Itty Bitty Double Extruder by adding support for E3Dv6 hot ends and flexible filament.  It uses the same hardware, so if you already built the Itty Bitty Double Extruder, you can print out the new parts and recycle the hardware.  Discussion for the Double FLEX extruder should go on the new thread.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

Very nice work on the flex material extruder - pics look great.  

Couple of general dual extrusion questions for C42 and everybody:

-What is the best way to print a single material on the dual?  I know you can assign one extruder to infill and I've done that successfully.  But if you're really only using one head, do you heat up the other one or leave it completely off?  I set up a material that has a temp of zero so that I can leave the extruders setting in slicer at 2 and not have the empty nozzle heating.

-There is a lot of potential for confusion on extruder identification - ramps is labeled 0/1 but marlin assigns 0 to the bed, 1 and 2 to extruders, the LCD has  0 on left and 1 on right but no designation on screen.  Slicer is very weak with two materials slots over under which I can never remember which is which, and calls them 1 and 2 in the window where you select which extruder prints which part of a single stl print.  Is everybody using:

0 on ramps, therefore left on LCD, 1 in marlin, 1 in slicer multiple extruder window and "bottom" on the two material selectors in the plater dialog, and
1 on ramps, therefore right on LCD, 2 in marlin, 2 in slicer, and "top" selector in the plater?

I can figure this out but would love if someone can recommend an organized way of thinking about this.

----------


## clough42

> Very nice work on the flex material extruder - pics look great.  
> 
> Couple of general dual extrusion questions for C42 and everybody:
> 
> -What is the best way to print a single material on the dual?  I know you can assign one extruder to infill and I've done that successfully.  But if you're really only using one head, do you heat up the other one or leave it completely off?  I set up a material that has a temp of zero so that I can leave the extruders setting in slicer at 2 and not have the empty nozzle heating.
> 
> -There is a lot of potential for confusion on extruder identification - ramps is labeled 0/1 but marlin assigns 0 to the bed, 1 and 2 to extruders, the LCD has  0 on left and 1 on right but no designation on screen.  Slicer is very weak with two materials slots over under which I can never remember which is which, and calls them 1 and 2 in the window where you select which extruder prints which part of a single stl print.  Is everybody using:
> 
> 0 on ramps, therefore left on LCD, 1 in marlin, 1 in slicer multiple extruder window and "bottom" on the two material selectors in the plater dialog, and
> ...


I have the first extruder on the left.  That way it matches the LCD and nobody gets hurt....err...burned.  Slic3r calls it 1, which is the top material selector.

In Slic3r, if I want a single material print, I just use a configuration with only one extruder.  It only heats up the left nozzle and everything works.  It actually works out well that way because the cold hot end is slightly shorter due to its temperature, so it doesn't scrape on the print, and of course it doesn't dribble.  You do have to make sure the second nozzle is clean so it doesn't hit the print.   Just heat it up and wipe with paper towels.

----------


## bobovich

Did you post a link to your i3 mounting plate.  I can only find the i3v version.

----------


## clough42

I don't believe I ever posted a design for an i3 mounting plate.  The extruder will fit on the i3 with some longer M3 bolts into the shelf and no screws into the brackets.  The bracket pins also need to be trimmed a little to make them fit, but it can be done pretty easily.

----------


## clough42

I've gotten a number of inquiries about NEMA 14 stepper motors for our double extruders.  We now have them available:  http://clough42.com/go/product/nema-14-stepper-motor

----------


## clough42

I have gotten some questions about the new Hexagon AO hot end. It has a shorter heat sink and a larger aluminum block, so the fan shrouds don't fit. Here is an experimental version of the shroud that should fit the Hexagon AO. I have not tested it. If you do, please let me know how it works. I have no idea if it will provide enough cooling for the smaller heat sink.

TightDoubleHexagonAOShroud.STL

This is the version for the Itty Bitty Double Extruder.  I have also put one for the Itty Bitty Double FLEX Extruder in the other thread.

----------


## avluis

That hexagon looks interesting - may have to get it just to be able to screw the heater and thermistor in (and not worry about it falling out without kapton tape).
Wonder if makerfarm will start carrying it.

On another note - noticed that they are carrying the itty bitty double extruder kit now, awesome!
Wonder if they can print out the parts as well (lets say about $100 for the whole thing), can you ask them about that?

----------


## clough42

> That hexagon looks interesting - may have to get it just to be able to screw the heater and thermistor in (and not worry about it falling out without kapton tape).
> Wonder if makerfarm will start carrying it.
> 
> On another note - noticed that they are carrying the itty bitty double extruder kit now, awesome!
> Wonder if they can print out the parts as well (lets say about $100 for the whole thing), can you ask them about that?


If you try it, let us know how it works.  We don't know yet if cooling will be sufficient with a 25mm fan.

We have discussed providing printed parts, but there are no specific plans.

----------


## dravenm4

I finished printing the shroud last night and an done with assembly of the extruder. I will mount it tonight get some pic's for everyone and will let you all know how it works to keep them cool.

----------


## clough42

> I finished printing the shroud last night and an done with assembly of the extruder. I will mount it tonight get some pic's for everyone and will let you all know how it works to keep them cool.


Awesome.  Do you have a way to measure the heat sink temperature precisely?  For reference, I'm seeing heat sink temperatures between 40 and 50C with the original Hexagons, measured with a thermocouple wedged in between the fins near the  top.

----------


## dravenm4

Yes, I have a few ways to measure the the temps accurately, but they will all be externally. I am currently looking at a way to add temp monitoring and fan control to keep them at optimal temps. Liquid cooling is also a thought but currently looks to be out of reach without a liquid mess. 

Anyway here is a link open to you guys for my Google Drive. I will be adding all my pics and findings there as I gather them.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...DA&usp=sharing

----------


## clough42

> Yes, I have a few ways to measure the the temps accurately, but they will all be externally. I am currently looking at a way to add temp monitoring and fan control to keep them at optimal temps. Liquid cooling is also a thought but currently looks to be out of reach without a liquid mess. 
> 
> Anyway here is a link open to you guys for my Google Drive. I will be adding all my pics and findings there as I gather them.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/folderview?...DA&usp=sharing


Do the Hexagon AO hot ends come with the rubber isolator caps for the heat blocks?

----------


## dravenm4

No, Sadly I did not receive the Silicon caps  :Frown:  it isnt even mentioned in the contents for the kit... Which blows.

----------


## clough42

> No, Sadly I did not receive the Silicon caps  it isnt even mentioned in the contents for the kit... Which blows.


I love the caps.  I find that I have to be extremely careful with the print cooling fan on hot ends without the caps.  A misplaced fan can completely overwhelm a 30W 12V heater and prevent it from reaching temperature at all.

----------


## TopJimmyCooks

Bummer that they bagged the silicone jackets.

----------


## clough42

> Bummer that they bagged the silicone jackets.


I'm not really sure what's going on with the AO.  RRD doesn't sell them, but sites that do claim it's a joint design between RRD and LulzBot.  I guess the goal is just to get more thermal mass to support higher flow rates.

----------


## lakester

Apologies, I realize this isn't really the right thread...

Would you be able to answer a kinda generic question about your print cooling shroud here?  There is a large newbie element to the question...

Thx.

----------


## clough42

Sure.  If it's too far off topic, we can adjust.




> Apologies, I realize this isn't really the right thread...
> 
> Would you be able to answer a kinda generic question about your print cooling shroud here?  There is a large newbie element to the question...
> 
> Thx.

----------


## lakester

Thx!

ATM, I'm running a stock 12" I3V w/ RUMBA.  Hexagon HE, 0.4mm for 3mm filament (w/ silicon bootie) and standard MF fan shroud.  The key thing here is that the fan effectively ends up blowing down on the table, and thus provides some continuous, albeit "meh", part cooling.

Per comments someone made in my "diary" thread, I'm printing some retraction test objects.

The last of the tests is printing now, and I'll post in my thread the results, but the results I'm seeing thus far suggest to me that adjusting retraction times is effective, but has practical limits, and that some cooling tweaks might have a role to play.

I think I would like to try your extended part cooling fan shroud, initially leaving the MF HE cooling in place and then possibly switching to your Hex cooler as well.

Questions:

Would the part cooling fan be wired to the controller rather than straight to power?  If so...Any general rule of thumb for the situations in which you'd use it or not?

Again, thx!






> Sure.  If it's too far off topic, we can adjust.

----------


## clough42

The goal with the part cooling fan is to cool the deposited layers of plastic so they solidify without drooping before the next layer goes down on top.  A part cooling fan can help immensely with bridging and overhangs, and it helps get crisp edges when printing layers with short build times.  I've had parts with narrow towers that print poorly because the hot end just sits over the top of the tower, building straight up and the radiant heat from the hot end never lets it set up.  A fan helps with this.

Usually though, you want to avoid air blowing on the print for the first few layers to prevent warping.  To much air too soon can cause the parts to peel off the bed, especially with ABS.

I always run the print cooling fan on a PWM channel under software control.  I'm not familiar with RUMBA, so I can't tell you where to connect it.  Slic3r has configuration settings for cooling policy to control when the fan runs.  I usually have it set to skip the first 5 layers and then power on progressively for layer times less than 45 seconds or so, slowing down to prevent layer times less than 10 seconds.  You want it on for bridging.

For some parts with lots of detail, you will want the fan on continuously.  For others that are prone to warping, you will want it off.  It's an art and you will have to learn from experience.

I hope this helps..




> Thx!
> 
> ATM, I'm running a stock 12" I3V w/ RUMBA.  Hexagon HE, 0.4mm for 3mm filament (w/ silicon bootie) and standard MF fan shroud.  The key thing here is that the fan effectively ends up blowing down on the table, and thus provides some continuous, albeit "meh", part cooling.
> 
> Per comments someone made in my "diary" thread, I'm printing some retraction test objects.
> 
> The last of the tests is printing now, and I'll post in my thread the results, but the results I'm seeing thus far suggest to me that adjusting retraction times is effective, but has practical limits, and that some cooling tweaks might have a role to play.
> 
> I think I would like to try your extended part cooling fan shroud, initially leaving the MF HE cooling in place and then possibly switching to your Hex cooler as well.
> ...

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## lakester

Thank you very much, it does.

I'll let ya know when I'm ready for the dual-extruder...  :Wink: 




> ...
> 
> I hope this helps..

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## csader

Using Clough's firmware, adjusted for my 10" bed, calibrated nicely. However, my prints aren't printing in the center of the bed...they seem to be off by about 20mm on the Y axis, and 30mm on the X axis. Any ideas?

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## clough42

> Using Clough's firmware, adjusted for my 10" bed, calibrated nicely. However, my prints aren't printing in the center of the bed...they seem to be off by about 20mm on the Y axis, and 30mm on the X axis. Any ideas?


I have noticed the same thing recently.  I expected an X offset of either 13.5 or 27mm, depending how it is configured, but the Y offset was a surprise.  I haven't spent any time trying to figure it out yet.

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## csader

> I have noticed the same thing recently.  I expected an X offset of either 13.5 or 27mm, depending how it is configured, but the Y offset was a surprise.  I haven't spent any time trying to figure it out yet.



Hmmm...doesn't make sense to me why there would be any X offset if I'm printing with the right (facing the printer) nozzle...that sits pretty close to 0,0 when I home it.

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## clough42

> Hmmm...doesn't make sense to me why there would be any X offset if I'm printing with the right (facing the printer) nozzle...that sits pretty close to 0,0 when I home it.


Is your x endstop triggering during the abl sequence?  I think mine is, and I wonder if that's part of the cause.

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## csader

> Is your x endstop triggering during the abl sequence?  I think mine is, and I wonder if that's part of the cause.


I have mine doing a G28, which triggers the X and Y endstops when it homes. Then it does ABL (G29) and doesn't hit the X or Y endstops at all.

I wonder if it has anything to do with Safe Homing? When I do the G28, it homes X and Y, then goes out to what the firmware says is "X_MAX_LENGTH/2".

X_MAX_LENGTH = X_MAX_POS - X_MIN_POS...and I have X_MAX_POS = 245 (roughly 9.65" since my glass sheet is slightly smaller than my 10" bed) and X_MIN_POS = 0.

I should fiddle with those numbers and see if it helps...maybe tomorrow.

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## clough42

> I have mine doing a G28, which triggers the X and Y endstops when it homes. Then it does ABL (G29) and doesn't hit the X or Y endstops at all.
> 
> I wonder if it has anything to do with Safe Homing? When I do the G28, it homes X and Y, then goes out to what the firmware says is "X_MAX_LENGTH/2".
> 
> X_MAX_LENGTH = X_MAX_POS - X_MIN_POS...and I have X_MAX_POS = 245 (roughly 9.65" since my glass sheet is slightly smaller than my 10" bed) and X_MIN_POS = 0.
> 
> I should fiddle with those numbers and see if it helps...maybe tomorrow.


There's also a notion of center in the Slicer.  I've also wondered if would work better to have the extruder offsets positive or negative or split the difference.

I probably won't have time to look at it for a while.  Too much other stuff going.

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## beerdart

Long time no post but the Itty Bitty is still running great. We just added auto retract nozzles to prevent dragging of the inactive head and the results are very positive.

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## TopJimmyCooks

> .... We just added auto retract nozzles ........


Do tell.  Dglass?

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## Chadd

I ordered up some hardware from Clough this week to make both an itty bitty flex double and a single itty bitty.

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## beerdart

Bde..... 


> do tell.  Dglass?


...

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## beerdart

http://vid113.photobucket.com/albums...ps4kbwfn1m.mp4

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## TopJimmyCooks

> Bde..... ...


BeerDart Engineering?

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## beerdart

Yes  ............

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## Chadd

> Yes  ............


So is this something you are sharing or selling?

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## beerdart

I have no plans to make and sell. Sharing sure. Its just an M6 socket head cap screw with the center drilled and a spring under the head. The heat sink was machined so the SHCS slips through. 


> So is this something you are sharing or selling?

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## clough42

That's pretty cool.  Have you posted details somewhere?  It's hard to see in the video exactly what's going on.  It just looks like magic.

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## beerdart

Ha Ha Ill call it the PFM auto retract.. I few pics its a very simple set-up.

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## clough42

> I ordered up some hardware from Clough this week to make both an itty bitty flex double and a single itty bitty.


Thank you.  I appreciate the business.

Since you purchased milled extruder bolts from me, I though I would mention that I just updated the documentation on my web site.  With the Clough42 bolts in an Itty Bitty extruder (4:1 drive) I recommend starting with an e-steps value of 615.  This assumes you're using the usual 1/16 microstepping.

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## Chadd

> Thank you.  I appreciate the business.
> 
> Since you purchased milled extruder bolts from me, I though I would mention that I just updated the documentation on my web site.  With the Clough42 bolts in an Itty Bitty extruder (4:1 drive) I recommend starting with an e-steps value of 615.  This assumes you're using the usual 1/16 microstepping.


Thanks for the tip, I am going to be assembling them sometime this weekend. I am planning on using the single until I am out of 3mm filament then switching to the double and 1.75 filament. While I haven't really had any issues with 3mm filament it seems like every time I go to order filament there is a ton of 1.75 available in what I am looking for and no 3mm. 

Have you ever thought about trying to incorporate the Cyclops or Cimeron with your dual design?

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## clough42

> Thanks for the tip, I am going to be assembling them sometime this weekend. I am planning on using the single until I am out of 3mm filament then switching to the double and 1.75 filament. While I haven't really had any issues with 3mm filament it seems like every time I go to order filament there is a ton of 1.75 available in what I am looking for and no 3mm. 
> 
> Have you ever thought about trying to incorporate the Cyclops or Cimeron with your dual design?


Same here.  I have always used Hexagon hot ends with 3mm filament and been very happy.  I recently installed a pair of E3Dv6 hot ends for 1.75 on my 12" printer, and they're working well, also.  I'm not totally sure the E3D is much better than the Hexagon or that the 1.75 is better than the 3mm.  They all seem to work pretty well.

I do seem to get better layer adhesion with the 3mm Hexagons, but there are a lot of variables, so I'm not sure exactly what is causing the difference.

The Cyclops and Chimera are bowden hot ends, and all of my extruders are direct drive.  I've thought about it, but I haven't put much time into it.

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## TopJimmyCooks

Clough42 - I also have interest in 1.75 mainly for availability issues rather than function.  However I have an inventory of 3mm and would like to cover both.  Any chance of getting an STL of an extruder block with 3mm on the right and 1.75 on the left?  Or is there a liner tube out there that goes from 3mm to 1.75?  if not, there should be.  

/quick search shows 2mm ID 3mm OD pfte is available.  Maybe a good way to go, possibly even reversable once installed. 

I am a Happy IBD user although I'm kind of over dual material printing since the self support in Simplify 3d is so dang good - Thanks again.

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## printbus

> ...quick search shows 2mm ID 3mm OD pfte is available.  Maybe a good way to go, possibly even reversable once installed.


TJC - see if you have any somewhat used BIC pens laying around.  The ink tube is pretty close to 3mm OD, 2mm ID.  Some people have used lengths of spent ink tubes as a liner in the 3mm-native Greg's Wade extruder body provided by MakerFarm.  I've seem some pens with tubes that are too narrow - especially giveaway-type pens that are likely trying to go cheap on the amount of ink.

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## beerdart

I dont see the need to make the hole in the extruder 1.75 the 3mm hole should have no problem with 1.75 as long as your extruder is setup for 1.75.

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## clough42

> I dont see the need to make the hole in the extruder 1.75 the 3mm hole should have no problem with 1.75 as long as your extruder is setup for 1.75.


For rigid filaments, this will probably work.  I'm not so sure with flexible filament.  That might be more problematic.

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## TopJimmyCooks

I ordered a meter of 3mm OD/2mm ID PTFE.  I'm going to order a sampler pack of 1.75's to try, such as 

http://www.amazon.com/Sunwin-1-75mm-.../dp/B00N0A8YHI 

Not planning on anything flexible.  I will try that to start.  Thanks.

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## clough42

> I ordered a meter of 3mm OD/2mm ID PTFE.  I'm going to order a sampler pack of 1.75's to try, such as 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sunwin-1-75mm-.../dp/B00N0A8YHI 
> 
> Not planning on anything flexible.  I will try that to start.  Thanks.


Awesome.  Let us know how it works.  I wonder if it'll be tight enough to stay in place.  If not, let me know and I can generate some new custom STLs.

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