# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > CTC 3D Printers >  Raft bond too strong

## carpenter2015

When printing with rafts I'm having trouble separating the piece. 

The raft tears pieces out of the print of or leaves parts of itself permanently attached as though it is a part of the print.

Are there any settings to reduce the strength of the bond? I'm using Makerware and CTC 3D and PLA.

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## Mjolinor

Some slicers allow you to specify the raft to model distance. I have no idea if Makerware does as I have never used it.

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## carpenter2015

> Some slicers allow you to specify the raft to model distance. I have no idea if Makerware does as I have never used it.


I haven't found an option, just using it as it was bundled with the printer.

Having a look at Slic3r at the moment it seems more flexible than Makerware

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## EagleSeven

> When printing with rafts I'm having trouble separating the piece. 
> 
> The raft tears pieces out of the print of or leaves parts of itself permanently attached as though it is a part of the print.
> 
> Are there any settings to reduce the strength of the bond? I'm using Makerware and CTC 3D and PLA.


What bed surface and adhesive are you using ??
If you have a Glass plate on bed and are using Aqua-net spray, then there should be No problem.
If not, that's what you Need !  :Smile: 

Note: Let bed completely Cool before removing object, will help with large area objects
Lower temp reduces bond

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## Mjolinor

> What bed surface and adhesive are you using ??
> If you have a Glass plate on bed and are using Aqua-net spray, then there should be No problem.
> If not, that's what you Need ! 
> 
> Note: Let bed completely Cool before removing object, will help with large area objects
> Lower temp reduces bond


This is relevant because?

He is having problems taking the raft from the work piece, not the raft from the bed.

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## EagleSeven

Oops, Sorry !
Read it Too fast, since I had a print going .  :Smile: 

We have never had that problem with Makerware version-2.4 but maybe later versions create the Raft differently ?
I had other problems with version 3.7 when tried it.  :Frown:  so went back to 2.4 .


Note: <<< I just noticed that I'm Now a 'Technologist' ! What ever that is ?? LOL  :Smile: 
I've Never been one of Those Before !  :Smile:  Does that mean I get a Pay-Raise ? LOL  :Smile:

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## Bobby Lin

Hi! I have never used Makerware as a slicer. I used Slic3r software for slicing my 3d models. However, I found a link about configuring the raft settings for Makerware, this might come in handy for you.

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## carpenter2015

> Hi! I have never used Makerware as a slicer. I used Slic3r software for slicing my 3d models. However, I found a link about configuring the raft settings for Makerware, this might come in handy for you.


Thanks Bobby that's very useful, I was trying Slic3r yesterday and getting some acceptable results without needing rafts so this may be the better option.

@Eagleseven I'm still using the blue tape and original bed that the  machine came with, glass bed seems to be recommended in all my trawling of forums etc. so will probably get one.



JC

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## EagleSeven

> @Eagleseven I'm still using the blue tape and original bed that the  machine came with, glass bed seems to be recommended in all my trawling of forums etc. so will probably get one.
> JC


 We found a 10" X 12" X 3/32" glass sheet at Lowes-hardware and had them cut it to 2ea 6"X9" pieces.
Cost less than $3.

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## curious aardvark

the raft of makerware 2.4 is pretty easy to remove. Althouhg I did find on longer porints with abs - becasue the bed was so hot the raft and print fused into one piece. 
Yet another reason for pla :-) No rafts necessary.

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## EagleSeven

> the raft of makerware 2.4 is pretty easy to remove. Althouhg I did find on longer porints with abs - becasue the bed was so hot the raft and print fused into one piece. 
> Yet another reason for pla :-) No rafts necessary.


Yes, I agree completely !

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## Bobby Lin

> Thanks Bobby that's very useful, I was trying Slic3r yesterday and getting some acceptable results without needing rafts so this may be the better option.


Glad to be of help, let us know if it finally works for you!

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## carpenter2015

> Glad to be of help, let us know if it finally works for you!


Well as we say in the UK 'It's doin me ead in'  :Frown: 

I bought a borosilicate glass plate, no better, probably worse than blue painters tape..

Edit: ton of waffling stuff removed........

I think may have solved it.

Noticed when doing a test print which had four separate discs, the first wasn't sticking to the bed, the second was dragging, the third dragging a little and the fourth stuck  and all without rafts.

I think the bed or more importantly the glass isn't getting up to temperature for the first print, as it warmed up 'sticktion' improved.

Tried again by preheating and all four stick fast.  :Smile:  happy bunny!

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## Thor

Questions:
1.   Is the glass bed approach just ordinary window glass on top of the bed?   Is it taped to the bed to hold it in place?  How does it affect the heat setting for the print bed?
2.   I am using PLA exclusively right now, and just blue tape on the bed.   Is there a heat setting for the bed temperature that allows me to dispense with rafts?  
3.   I am having problems separating the raft from my print.   Is it possible that I am printing at too high a temperature, thus causing the raft to fuse with the print too strongly?

Thanks

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## EagleSeven

> Questions:
> 1.   Is the glass bed approach just ordinary window glass on top of the bed?   Is it taped to the bed to hold it in place?  How does it affect the heat setting for the print bed?
> 2.   I am using PLA exclusively right now, and just blue tape on the bed.   Is there a heat setting for the bed temperature that allows me to dispense with rafts?  
> 3.   I am having problems separating the raft from my print.   Is it possible that I am printing at too high a temperature, thus causing the raft to fuse with the print too strongly?
> 
> Thanks


We used window glass purchased at Lowes-hardware.
Used Aqua-net spray to stick glass directly to aluminum plate, No tape
Use large paper-clips to hold it in place until dry, takes about a week to dry completely
Top of glass is about 15 C lower than indicated temp

 Since adding glass, we do rafts only when large Support areas are needed,
for objects with overhang areas at bottom of object.
Use Aqua-net spray to hold printed objects to glass also, thin even coat is best.
(wash off spray, with wet cloth, after each print)

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## Thor

Thanks for the quick reply.    So did you remove the Kapton tape that was on the bed in order to get to the aluminum plate?

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## EagleSeven

> Thanks for the quick reply.    So did you remove the Kapton tape that was on the bed in order to get to the aluminum plate?


If the brown Kapton tape is in good condition and not damaged then you can leave it,
Aqua-net will stick to it also.
But if damaged you can remove tape and apply glass directly to aluminum.

I think it's better with glass directly on aluminum, since there is better Heat transfer that way.
But you can increase temp setting to compensate for extra insulation layer of tape,
which you will need to do anyway when adding glass.

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## Thor

So I have a glass plate on the bed now and I increased bed temperature to 65 to account for the heat loss through the glass (printing with PLA).    Have not had a successful print yet.    There seems to be some curling of the print and at some point the nozzle catches on a curled corner and pulls the whole piece off the bed.    Is the curling because of excess or insufficient heat?   Any other suggestions?    It is worth noting that the preheat function on my printer doesn't seem to work.    When I go to preheat and select on for the print bed, nothing happens.    Is there a trick to doing a preheat?

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## EagleSeven

> So I have a glass plate on the bed now and I increased bed temperature to 65 to account for the heat loss through the glass (printing with PLA).    Have not had a successful print yet.    There seems to be some curling of the print and at some point the nozzle catches on a curled corner and pulls the whole piece off the bed.    Is the curling because of excess or insufficient heat?   Any other suggestions?    It is worth noting that the preheat function on my printer doesn't seem to work.    When I go to preheat and select on for the print bed, nothing happens.    Is there a trick to doing a preheat?


Overhangs will curl like that, the thinner it is the more it may curl.
I keep a long bladed knife handy to push down those curls.
they usually have a little spring-back, so need to push a little past level.
Those are very Soft so don't over do it. 

If you are in the correct area of firmware, when trying to activate preheat, and still not work,
then there must be a problem with Firmware.
Did you reload firmware recently, to maybe cause that ?
Which version of Firmware are you using ?
Did preheat work before and quit, or has it never worked ?

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## Thor

The curling I am experiencing is not on overhangs, it is on a flat portion of the build, printed without a raft or a support.   And it is not especially thin, perhaps 6 mm.
On turn-on the printer says The Creator Firmware Version 1.0.    I have never tried to reload the firmware, this is as delivered.    The preheat function has never worked differently that it does now and it seems to be the same for the extruders as for the bed.

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## EagleSeven

> The curling I am experiencing is not on overhangs, it is on a flat portion of the build, printed without a raft or a support.   And it is not especially thin, perhaps 6 mm.
> On turn-on the printer says The Creator Firmware Version 1.0.    I have never tried to reload the firmware, this is as delivered.    The preheat function has never worked differently that it does now and it seems to be the same for the extruders as for the bed.


Wow, I've never had that type curling problem with PLA,
Of course ABS does a lot and HIPS curls some. 
Only thing I can think of is that nozzle temp may be too high,
may try lowering it more.
Sounds like the bed temp is about correct.
Maybe you got some ABS that was wrongly labeled PLA !  :Wink: 

'Creator Firmware Version 1.0' is what is displayed on ours also,
Sorry , no ideas how to fix preheat except maybe reload firmware
and personally, as long as it is printing I don't think I would attempt that.

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