# 3D Printing > 3D Printers (Hardware) >  PinrtrBot Metal Plus or Lulzbot Taz 5?

## dunginhawk

So I am in the market for a new (larger build area) printer.  THe metal plus at 10 x 10 x 10 is as small as id like to go, but the lulz is a little bigger.
Obviously the lulz is also twice the cost.
I would get the heated bed version of the metal plus. so its $1199, vs $2199.

Anyone have thoughts either way? its a large chunk of change difference, but if its worth it, lets talk about it and ill make the case  :Smile: 
thanks guys and gals.

----------


## MiniMadRyan

That's a good question, the Plus looks to be the clear cut winner in terms of price to capabilities ratio. However, it's relatively new to the market, and there are still kinks being worked out in its design. If you're looking for users on different forums, there's still not as much talk of it yet due to its recent release. 

The Taz however has been around for quite some time, but I would argue that it's probably one of the most well engineered printers in the market, and with it being open sourced, has tons of upgrades and user support behind it too....

having had a Printrbot, their Twitter support is great, their guides are good, but occasionally you might be missing a screw or two in your kit, it's hard to argue with their prices though. If you have the budget, go for the Taz, if not, the Printrbot....if you're looking for an project and something to tinker with, get a MakerFarm Prusa i3

----------


## dunginhawk

Thank you for the response Ryan  :Smile:  I am also ryan.... 

So really at the end of the day, I do have the money for the Taz... That doesnt mean I wouldnt like to spend 500-700 less for something pretty comparable.
I actually just ran across the creatorbot-3d... Which has a 12x12x12 build volume and has only recently begun shipping. There is just NO information out there about them.
I would hope if i went with the printrbot, since its assembled (the metal plus) that i wouldnt have any missing screws  :Smile: 

I LOVE the z probe leveling option on the printrbots, that is really cool.  

Man this is a really tough decision.

----------


## dunginhawk

So im not afraid of a kit, at all... I just want something that can print QUALITY pieces, and large volume... So if the 12x12x12 prusa i3 can? i may consider it

----------


## chris@radeuslabs

I wavered for months on which printer to get. And it got worse as new models / manufactures came to market. Best of luck with your decision.

----------


## dunginhawk

Chris... what did you end up getting? and are you happy with it?

----------


## chris@radeuslabs

I picked up a dremel ideal builder, its basically a re-branded falshforge creator pro without the heated build plate and only 1 extruder. 

We picked up a 2014 Series 1 at work and that made me pull the trigger. I went with this model for the simple fact I could pick it up at my local home depot. 

Even though I had been looking / pondering for awhile, I'd definitely consider it an impulse buy  :Big Grin: 

I am very happy with the printer. Dremel has been quick to respond and help with any of my questions. We ended up buying another dremel for the shop. Over all I believe I have put 130 hours on both machines with good results.

As much as I like it, it wouldn't be prudent for me to recommend it to you base on the print area you are looking for. The dremel's print area is 9x6x5.5

----------


## dunginhawk

Thanks for the response... I already own a FF creator pro and i love it.. i think its a fantastic printer for the money... this time i need quality/volume  :Wink: 
thanks

----------


## chris@radeuslabs

I'd say FF did an awesome job just and the clones are proving it. 

The series 1 we have is great. 12x12x12.....but more expensive than the Taz. and does not have a heated bed nor dual extruders. We went with the series 1  because of the build area and at the time, it was the only system we could get next day.

----------


## dunginhawk

Yeah, my largest customer requires abs on their prints, so I definately need to keep that in mind.
I really think the taz is the best quality build, options, etc, but i cant help but to think the printrbot metal plus has a good price/performance mark.

----------


## chris@radeuslabs

Maybe request a picture from someone that has a printbot / taz and eyeball the output.?? Might not be the best comparison but better than nothing. It might help in your decision.

----------


## Wolfie

@dunginhawk,

I recently got into 3D printing and purchased my first printer 3 weeks ago.  Though I just ordered it, I had researched printers for almost 2 years before I finally decided to go for it.  I was lookong for something that could augment my CO2 laser.  It cuts.  The 3D printer builds.  Opposite but complimentary tools.

I looked at a great many aspects, not the least of which was cost.  I went about it in a logical, non-emotional way.

What I chose to do was ignore cost right off the bat.  Every printer was on the table.  I then sat down and chose the features I wanted and felt I would use or need most often.  Things I would require of a new printer, all those got a 10 value.  Then I worked through the like-to-haves.  Things that were nice but not mission critical.  I then scored those on 1-5 as to how much I wanted that aspect.  I set about scoring each printer based on those equal footing scales.  That gave every printer an equal footing, no matter what the cost.

After I compiled the list and sorted it by score, I added 3 other factors into the mix.  The last couple things I decided were important factors were company support, apparent customer satisfaction (rep in the community) and reliability.  Each of those got a 0-10 rating which was added to the score of features.   I will say that the support/rep/reliability aspect made quite a few changes in the top 10.

The list was resorted at that point and I began jotting down prices beside each at the top of the list.  Its kinda pointless to look up prices for the bottom of the list, obviously they were NOT what I wanted.  I was surprised that not many really expensive ones were in the top 10.  There were some.  But not many.  I found that most of the top 10 resided in the $1500-$3000 range.  By ignoring price to begin with, I think I was able to focus more on what I needed or wanted than worrying about how much it cost.  I mean really, is a cheap $200 printer that doesn't do what I want better than a $2000 that does everything I want?  No, IMHO, its pissing money down the drain.  You will get frustrated with it, feel limited, and ultimately go buy the one you should have in the first place.  Only you are money on the hole now.

So what did I get?  Well, it wasn't my #1 pick.  #1 got kicked out of the way with the manor in which they operate their website (I rabidly hate "call for a quote" crud) and the fact I contacted them for a quote several times with no reply and their long waiting time to deliver.  And, as I found out by waiting, good things come  :Smile:   One of the big features of #1 became easy to apply to many others of the top 10.  What did I end up with?  A LulzBot Taz.  In fact I ended up ordering a Taz 4 the day before they released the Taz 5.  And I got the Taz 5  :Smile:   Thats how MakerGeeks and Lulz rolls.  They both take care of the customer.

While I must consider myself a greenhorned novice by 3D printer standards, I am no stranger to tinkering and building.  In fact I built my first computer long before many of the people on this forum were born.  But, my limited experience with the Taz so far as been an absolute positive one.  Most things that have gone wrong were caused directly because of me and my ignorance.  But, thats the fun of this hobby, learning.  Creating.  Doing.

I am sorry, but I don't have experience with any other printer to draw conclusions or comparisons to relate an equation as to how the Taz relates to them.  But from the experience so far, I am not sorry I chose it.  Its built well.  It performs well.  The software it comes with (Cura) is ok and is used by a multitude of other printers.  But, one of the big deals that swayed me to up the Taz above other machines was their Open Hardware and Open Software attitudes.  Every piece.  Every nut.  Every cable. Every piece of software.  Its all documented and can be downloaded free of charge.  You could build your own Taz and source the parts yourself.  I think that puts a serious set of cahonies on Lulzbot.  They are so confident in their design, they publish it.  ALL of it.  And the community has responded positively to that by offering new and improved parts and making them available to the masses as well.  A new hot end comes out?  Not a big deal.  Download the plate STL from Lulz and modify it to take the new hot end.  Most other printers don't publish their parts like that, specifically the commercialized ones that have taken from the community and then turned inward and closed the door.

So, all I can say is do what I did.  Close your browser.  Shut off the computer.  Sit down with pencil and paper and make the same lists I did.  What do you NEED.  Then what do you WANT.  Then find the printer that gives most of that to you and then look at its rep and price.

I can tell you go buy a Taz.  "Go buy a taz."  There, I said it.  But, that doesn't make it the right printer for you and doesn't make it the best printer for your needs.  No matter how much or little it costs.  Cheaper doesn't make it right or better.

----------


## dunginhawk

Wolfie.. great email. thank you... 
So i think the fact that ive been bidding on taz;s the last week means i have made up my mind too..

SO i have a delta, and i have a cartesian, so i feel like I am in a pretty good position to know what i want.   

Im actually considering building my own taz... I am in the process of printing all the printed parts.. Im just not convinced I can make it as good as they can... I would really want the metal frame.

----------


## Wolfie

Have you considered the KitTaz?  Or if you are intent on doing it yourself..
http://devel.lulzbot.com/TAZ/Juniper..._1500order.ods
Down around line 175 is the frame.

----------


## dunginhawk

I have considered the kittaz.. I am just wondering if i could source it myself for much less than that... I mean obviously they still need to make a profit, and I understand that.
I figure if i can print the 3d printed parts myself, thats a big chunk.  
Im watching house of cards and on my macbook air, so i cant open that spreadsheet yet.  ill check it out when i got downstairs.

Thank you

----------


## dunginhawk

ill tell ya , looking over that parts list is much more daunting than I had imagined.  My time is worth a lot more than what it would take to do that.
I really do think i have it narrowed down to printrbot metal plus, and the taz 4/5 .   Heavily leaning taz at the moment.

----------


## MiniMadRyan

The one thing I like a lot about the Taz is that you can modify and upgrade it easily whenever you please. You could theoretically grab some longer extrusion and a larger bed and expand the size of the printer itself, or print your own mount for a spindle or something else. You also consider you get an LCD screen and arguably better electronics (I love their use of quick connectors) than the Printrbot.

The Printrbot is still a good choice, I tend to look now at Printrbot as the best cheap ready to use printers, and he new metal plus is a sexy machine, but like you, I'm leaning towards the Taz, as with the Printrbot, what it does today, it will always do, and be limited to that, whereas the Taz has the capability to grow and evolve well into the future.

----------


## dunginhawk

yeah, i just wish i wasnt so hasty with my first purchase and instead gone with the taz from the start... i didnt do enough research... but ill make the right choice this time.
I love the cleaning pad thing that someone made for the back of the taz, that is awesome.  id love to add the z probe leveling piece that the printrbot has. that would be a huge addition to the taz.

----------


## dunginhawk

So now im thinking the kittaz may be a good option.. saves 500-600 bucks, and its all metal contruction means I cant really screw it up too bad from a level perspective etc.. PLus i already built a rostock max, so it cant be as hard as that...
so is the kittaz EXACTLY like a taz 4? just in kit form? 
EDIT - NM answered my own question.. its handicapped little brother to the taz 4-5. no lcd, etc.
again.. SPEND THE MONEY STUPID.. stop trying to talk yourself out of it (self loathing)

----------


## Wolfie

> yeah, i just wish i wasnt so hasty with my first purchase and instead gone with the taz from the start... i didnt do enough research... but ill make the right choice this time.
> I love the cleaning pad thing that someone made for the back of the taz, that is awesome.  *id love to add the z probe leveling piece that the printrbot has. that would be a huge addition to the taz.*


Wish granted:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:117957

----------


## dunginhawk

Yeah, i saw that, and ive watched the video... thats really less than elegant... the z probe on the printrbot is really good from everything ive heard..
i guess its an option  :Smile:  just not the best one )

----------


## MiniMadRyan

I have a similar probe on my MakerFarm, they are awesome. Frankly, I love watching that arm swing down and probe, it's just as accurate, but much cooler in my opinion. 

If if you really want to save some money, check out the MakerFarm kits, they are amazing printers once assembled and tuned, and the community here is amazing  :Smile:

----------


## dunginhawk

You like ur prusa that much huh?  I looked at them and have it some thought.  I just don't want to buy a kit and regret it and have to buy something else again.

----------


## MiniMadRyan

I know kits aren't everyone's cup of tea, but if a person has time to kill and doesn't want to break the bank, it's a really good choice. I've modded mine, tweaked it and still play around with it, but it's been amazingly reliable, 100 hours of printing without any major issues. 

That being said, like what you've said, if I want a printer I can just print with, the Taz i my choice  :Smile:

----------


## dunginhawk

Thats funny you say 100 hours of printing without issues... With as long as things take to print, i think 100 hours on a printer is like its break in period  :Smile:  haha.
Ive only owned my FF Creator Pro for a month and i have at least 250 hours on it.  Still going strong, of course.

Im not anti kit, ive built a kit, and its been a good printer.  This is a harder decision than asking my wife to marry me haha.

----------


## dunginhawk

is there any reason i should be entertaining the solidoodle workbench as well?  there isnt much info out there on it.

----------


## MiniMadRyan

I guess I consider the 100 hour mark for me to be the time frame in which I expect things to go horribly wrong haha! In all honesty, this printer is at the stage where I know I can turn it on, warm it up and print beautiful prints day in and day out with little tuning....more than I had from my first Printrbot Simple! 

Regarding the Solidoodle, if you haven't already, check out the threads on the boards here, and the Soliforum.com forums. Frankly, I'm on the fence. Some users don't have any issues, others have had serious build and design issues. From what i've seen, I wouldn't consider the Workbench at all until supply chain and quality issues are corrected. Even then, the price point of the Workbench is on par with the Printrbot Plus Dual Extruder

----------


## dunginhawk

Yeah... strangly enough im leaning right now at doing the prusa 12 kit... people seem to like it. its cost efficient.  the biggest thing is. i need QUALITY prints... Im hoping i can equal the quality of my Flashforge Creator pro, which produced this amazing fly reel (not my design, thanks michael)

What hot end does the makerfarm prusas use now? i heard the magmas are garbage.




If i can equal that print quality on the prusa 12.  Ill buy it today... this was .1 layer height, printed SLOW... Ryan, would you expect i can match that? after dialing it in?
EDIT : the crosshatch look is from the infill.. its a translucent gold PLA, so its a solid layer, but doesnt look like it  :Smile:

----------


## MiniMadRyan

Dang, that is a nice print. I haven't printed much at 0.1 heights, I usually print 0.3, which means my prints aren't as smooth as that. I've been printing other printers lately, so I've needed all my parts to be dimensionally correct and clean. You can see some of my prints here: http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.p...s-Build-Thread

Keep in mind, with the kit, your quality will depend on your ability to tweak the printer. Getting your belts tight when building it, making sure wheels don't wobble, that everything's tight, setting and tweaking the e-steps, nothing complicated or hard to do, but all that reflects in the quality of prints you produce. The MakerFarm kit taught me almost everything about designing and building printers. The nature of the kit means that I no longer worry about breaking something or needing to wait for parts to arrive, should I want to upgrade, or fix something, I can easily print it out. People are easily adding auto bed levelling, dual extruders, wireless printing, LED lighting, and countless other upgrades!

Regarding the hot end, I selected the Hexagon on my kit. I haven't read much on the Magma, but I'm extremely pleased withe the Hexagon. It's printed everything I've thrown at it with ease, I haven't had any jambs or issues with it, and I'd consider it right up there with E3D v6 in terms of performance.

----------


## dunginhawk

thanks for the response man.. really appreciate it... I think for the cost / risk, it makes the most sense.   I mean really... $700 is a drop in the bucket, so if it doesnt work. i sell it for $600 and move on.. 100$ down the drain. no biggie.
I gotta give it a go  :Smile:

----------


## dunginhawk

done... purchased it... and a PS and wire from amazon... 
now i just need to get 3 pieces of glass..
1. PEI matte finish for ABS
2. PEI gloss finish for PLA
3. plain glass for ninjaflex  :Smile:

----------


## chris@radeuslabs

> stop trying to talk yourself out of it (self loathing)


.......man that sounds familiar lol 

wtg on the purchase! btw, that reel looks amazing!!!

----------


## MiniMadRyan

Awesome!!! Congrats! You're going to enjoy it, I know it! It's a really fun build, and Colin has some of the best support around. If Colin doesn't help you, the forums here will. If you can, before your kit arrives, print out the pieces for the auto levelling kit, or any add-ons you might want to have! Welcome to the club!!

----------


## dunginhawk

i definately want to do the auto leveling kit... do you have one in particular you like to use? there are a lot of variations for sure... i want to make sure im getting the one that most folks recomend.
thanks

any other mods you think would be beneficial while building?
I like the taz mod for the cleaning pad.

----------


## MiniMadRyan

I went with Zennmaster's set up here: http://zennmaster.com/random-things/...nd-basic-setup  You can find some discussion on it on the boards here as well: http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.p...s-enhancements

Clough42 has a nice fan shroud as well: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:351280

Gmay3 has a nice spool holder compared to the stock one too: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:638906

I haven't seen a nozzle wiper yet, not specifically for the MakerFarm at least. If you haven't done so, I would highly recommend getting a Raspberry Pi and setting up OctoPi/OctoPrint for wireless printing....almost as amazing as auto bed levelling!

----------


## dunginhawk

sweet.. ill check those out..
I think i blew my pi camera, which pisses me off... so ill have to figure out if its blown or not. i hate to spend PI price for just a camera  :Smile:

----------


## MiniMadRyan

Heard it works fine with a traditional USB camera as well, and if you haver a newer model B+ or RPi 2, then you have plenty of USB ports to use too. The Pi Camera I find is a bit underwhelming, choppy, and quite dark, but it could be I'm just picky!

----------


## dunginhawk

yeah i have a B+ problem i had on my FFCP is that there wasnt a good place to mount the camera... shouldnt be an issue on the reprap, as there are plenty of mounting brackets etc available.. ill make sure its up and going  :Smile:

----------


## Frankn

I am looking my self. I checked out the TAZ5. 12X12x!2 build area and quality open source, but it uses the larger filament.
Here's something I found out. Solidoodle has a new printer called the Workbench with 12X12X12 work area, self leveling table and it looks good. Here's the catch. They are all tied up in shipping containers due to the strike. Amazon has them on auto notification when they come in. Take a look. Frank

----------


## dunginhawk

ive actually already gone with a makerfarm prusa i3v.. i couldnt justify the taz cost, and the prusa kit just seemed priced right.. and its low risk.
so we will see how that goes.
the solidoodle workbench is too new.. not proven  :Smile:

----------


## Wolfie

> I am looking my self. I checked out the TAZ5. 12X12x!2 build area and quality open source, but it uses the larger filament.
> Here's something I found out. Solidoodle has a new printer called the Workbench with 12X12X12 work area, self leveling table and it looks good. Here's the catch. They are all tied up in shipping containers due to the strike. Amazon has them on auto notification when they come in. Take a look. Frank


There is a 1.75 extruder head in their download files.  You can print the parts and convert the Taz to 1.75mm fliament.  I have not done so as I am perfectly happy with 3mm.

And, another good reason to buy American  :Smile:   Shipping from Colorado isn't an issue  :Smile:

----------


## Joinc

You should watch this review before you snag the TAZ.  In fact you should watch the 3 part series.  The guys are funny and they "dump" on Makerbot.  They couldn't get the Makerbot gen 5 to print at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc3uwKHf4tI

The TAZ may not be able to print ABS as well as you think since it is an open platforms.  ABS needs to be warm.  Also the TAZ does not have that much of an upgrade in quality versus a FF creator x PRO or PowerSpec Pro.  I have both a PowerSpec Pro and a Ultimaker 2 and the quality is close.  The Ultimaker may get a slight edge in PLA at a price of being a slow printer, but it cant print ABS to save it's life.  I am in the process of upgrading the Ulti 2 with enclosures so it will print ABS without warping.  I have only had minimal warping with the PowerSpec.

Regards----

----------


## dunginhawk

i already bought a prusa i3v 12" kit.. should be here mid week... ill certainly post my experience with it

----------


## Joinc

Nice!

Interesting info about motor voltages with long prints.
http://youtu.be/FULOrCEccPk

----------


## fuziontech

I just came to the same conclusion. Was looking at the Taz 5 and decided on the 12" Prusa i3v from makerfarm. Cannot beat the price and the community seems to be great surrounding it. To top it off there are so many opportunities for modifying with cheap parts!

----------


## Sam3DProjects

I know its more than you want to spend, but Fusion3 has 12x12x12, heated bed and dual extruders for under $5k. Even at that price, best printer for the $

----------


## russr

Older thread, but anyone used the Mankati Fullscale XT? I think it's a 10" X 10" X 12".  Prices seem to range - I think about $2,500.  Looks like it has the filament advance on the back-panel, lighter printhead, etc.

Then again, I am new to all this, so what the heck do I know!

 :Wink: 

            russ

----------


## Wolfie

> You should watch this review before you snag the TAZ.  In fact you should watch the 3 part series.  The guys are funny and they "dump" on Makerbot.  They couldn't get the Makerbot gen 5 to print at all.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc3uwKHf4tI
> 
> The TAZ may not be able to print ABS as well as you think since it is an open platforms.  ABS needs to be warm.  Also the TAZ does not have that much of an upgrade in quality versus a FF creator x PRO or PowerSpec Pro.  I have both a PowerSpec Pro and a Ultimaker 2 and the quality is close.  The Ultimaker may get a slight edge in PLA at a price of being a slow printer, but it cant print ABS to save it's life.  I am in the process of upgrading the Ulti 2 with enclosures so it will print ABS without warping.  I have only had minimal warping with the PowerSpec.
> 
> Regards----


Solved by $4 piece of bulk fleece from Joann's Fabrics.  For longer builds, I simply lay the piece of fleece over the top of the frame.  Its an instant enclosure and does not get in the way of anything.  I run a RasPi camera to monitor it so I don't need to see through it.  No expensive acrylic needed.





> Older thread, but anyone used the Mankati Fullscale XT? I think it's a 10" X 10" X 12".  Prices seem to range - I think about $2,500.  Looks like it has the filament advance on the back-panel, lighter printhead, etc.
> 
> Then again, I am new to all this, so what the heck do I know!
> 
> 
> 
>             russ


I can't really speak aout that specific printer, only what I have and know.  So I can give you a bit on the Taz 5 and you can judge from there.

I have had my Taz5 for a while now.  I think I was one of the earliest to receive mine.  I ordered a Taz4 the day before the 5 was announced.  Folks over at MakerGeeks got me the Taz5 instead.

I have ran into a few problems.  Nothing earth shattering but still there.

First, the build plate.  How do I put this.  Its almost TOO stickty.  Its got a PEI sheet on it and I have a hell of a time getting large surface area prints off.  HARD time.  To the point I actually lifted a piece off the PEI.  If I do a large print, I MUST remove it at 60c. (ABS)  If I let it cool to room temp, I am not getting it off without damaging the PEI.  Upside is I have never needed blue tape, hair spray or glue sticks  :Wink: 

Their new hot end is a modded Hexagon.  Its not the same Hexagon from reprap discount.  They changed it slightly and it has a shorter heat sink.  Not entirely sure of the ramifications of that for heat dissipation as I am not a thermodynamic engineer.  But gut feeling tells me its less efficient with less cooling.  Another fault with this is that you simply can't get more AO Hexagon hot ends.  Supply isn't there.  Its not in their store and AFAIK, thats the only source.  They simply don't have enough stock available to sell.  They have stock to repair, replace and sell new units.  But I want extra hot ends to experiment with.

Their FlexiStruder, FlexiDualie and their Dualie extruders all use the very old Budda hot end.  And use it fanless.  Its impossible to print any of the metal filaments with a fanless Budda.  I am talking CopperFil, BronzeFil and BrassFil.  I never could get anything but the smallest print done using a Budda on my FelexiDualie.  I scrapped the whole head and won't use it anymore.  Waste of money other than stripping it of the steppers and hardware for use on other projects.

The tiny cooling fan (little 5v squirrelcage) is freaking noisy.  Solved that with a side mounted 30mm fan and duct I designed.  And I increased the airflow over the cooling fins by about 3x.

Sometimes brittle filament snaps at the top of the extruder body.  I solved that too with a feed tube support.

Other than those issues, the machine has been a joy to work with.  Its printed ABS just fine.  I rarely use PLA simply because its can't be vapor smoothed safely in a home environment.  I have printed PLA but not a lot.

Here are some of my solutions:

Side Mounted 30/40mm Hexagon cooling fan:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:766633

Feed Tube Support:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:766614


I have since converted over to using the E3D v6 hot ends on the Taz.  Conversion is extremely easy.  You can use the existing extruder body and print a mounting plate (or use your aluminum one from your hex) and print my spacer shims:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:818601

And for the E3D, you will need an extended fan shroud:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:819103


All in all, I am not sorry I got it.  It is a good machine as purchased.  Minor annoyances.  I suspect I would find annoyances with just about any machine.  None have been insurmountable to the point of making me want a different printer.

----------

