# 3D Printing > 3D Printer Parts, Filament & Materials >  Can ABS withstand being submerged underwater 24/7?

## worldcreator

Designed a toilet part and wondering what filament is the best to print in?

ABS @ 100% infill? 

Or will I have to use something more expensive like nylon, etc.?

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## Alibert

Nylon is not very water resistant, as the polymer chains can break by reacting with water.

ABS is perfectly capable of withstanding water for many years.

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## curious aardvark

yep abs should be fine - but you don't need 100% infill. 
Just use 5 or 6 shells and 15-20% infill. 
The number of shells are what make it water tight, so why waste filament on unnecesary infill ?  

To be fair pla would probably be fine as well. Certainly in cold water.

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## worldcreator

Thanks for the quick feedback!
I assumed nylon would be a better alternative because it's resistant to most liquid chemicals (from what I hear).
And ABS doesn't exactly "appear" watertight or water resistant -- VS. how smooth and durable nylon looks after a print. Perhaps it's because I've been printing ABS at the 300 micron level. It just seems like water will seep through the lines and break down over time. 

I'll keep in mind the number of shells. Nice to know it doesn't have to be 100% infill. 

I've read from several sources that PLA will break down in water btw. Probably not an ocassional splash, but supposed if it's subjected to being underwater for long periods. 

I primarily use ABS however, so if I can do most anything with that, I'll stick with it. 

Does anyone know what kind of plastic is used by commercial manufacturers for toilet parts? I assume it's plastic injection molding, but what kind of plastic?

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## Alibert

Nylon is very resistent to organic solvents, but when you boil it in acidified water is will decompose. Nylon is made by a condensing reaction, that is a water molecule is split off to join two monomers together to form an amide bond. With the help of a water molecule that reaction can be reversed to split in into the monomers again.

ABS is resistent to many but not all organic solvents (think acetone smoothing here), but totally resistent to water.

PLA has the label of being biodegradable, however that is not fast. Many substances that are touted as 'biodgradable' take a very long time to do so. If a lab test shows that it is in principle possible (even after a very, very long time, and only under specific conditions), it will be labeled biodegradable to boost sales.

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## Mjolinor

> PLA has the label of being biodegradable, however that is not fast. Many substances that are touted as 'biodgradable' take a very long time to do so. If a lab test shows that it is in principle possible (even after a very, very long time, and only under specific conditions), it will be labeled biodegradable to boost sales.


Lies
Damn lies
and Statistics.

Disraeli I think.  :Smile:

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## worldcreator

Would it be safe to assume that nylon could be used as a funnel (for example) to pour chemicals and solvents, such as oil/gas/bleach/acetone at room temperature? Since it would only have limited liquid contact... 
*But not as a storage container..

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## Alibert

If you print it water/air tight, yes.

Bleach will affect the nylon, how much mileage you get with that I don't know.

With gas I guess you mean petrol and not an actual gas like methane?   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## awerby

ABS is commonly used for plumbing fittings: http://www.nibco.com/Fittings/Plasti...-DWV-Fittings/  so it's likely to be a good choice for your toilet parts, chemically speaking. But that's assuming it's mechanically sound, which isn't necessarily true in all directions for all 3D prints.

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## uncle_bob

Hi

Are you trying to simply submerge the part ?( = it's inside the tank) -- or-- are you trying to use the part to stop water flow? (= it's a stopper or gasket).

Nylon is a really bad thing to use in full time contact with water. It soaks up water and swells or it dries out and shrinks. Ultimately with enough water around it will crack and degrade. ABS is a much better option.

If you want water tight, a filament printer probably isn't your best choice. Even with a full infill, there are still paths though the print. If pressure is involved ... not a good thing. 

Bob

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## worldcreator

> With gas I guess you mean petrol and not an actual gas like methane?


Yes, petrol.

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## worldcreator

> Are you trying to simply submerge the part ?( = it's inside the tank) -- or-- are you trying to use the part to stop water flow? (= it's a stopper or gasket).


They are parts that normally stay underwater in the tank. It won't be used as a gasket (which will remain rubber), or I might consider a flexible filament for that.

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## uncle_bob

Hi

The biggest issue you are likely to run into is that the plastics we use in filaments all will "age" quickly in water. The dimensions will change and that likely will impact your part.

Bob

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## curious aardvark

> Hi
> 
> The biggest issue you are likely to run into is that the plastics we use in filaments all will "age" quickly in water. The dimensions will change and that likely will impact your part.
> 
> Bob


what's your evidence for that ? 
Commercial parts in cisterns also age - why should 3d printed parts 'age' any quicker ? 




> It just seems like water will seep through the lines and break down over time.


neither abs or pla are water soluble. 
Pla can be digested but you ned a 'hot' compost heat and the right bacteria to do it. For any purpose that isn't inside a hot compost heap - it's pretty bomb proof.

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## uncle_bob

> what's your evidence for that ? 
> Commercial parts in cisterns also age - why should 3d printed parts 'age' any quicker ? 
> 
> .


Hi

Most parts that go into plumbing are made from PVC rather than ABS. The parts I printed from ABS that a few years back ... not so nice anymore. Nylon and moisture, same issue on a *lot* of parts. Gears, screws, all sorts of stuff change size over the years. The reason is moisture. 

Bob

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## worldcreator

One last thing: for TEMPORARY liquid exposure to liquid solvents/chemicals, is nylon a safe bet? (e.g. the funnel example I mentioned)
According to various charts I've seen- ABS doesn't withstand solvents well at all, not even for a moment. But I don't have direct experience with this yet.

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## uncle_bob

Hi

Nylon gears in a drive train will ultimately distort and lock up simply due to moisture in the atmosphere. Will they all do it? Of course not. It depends enormously on the tolerances, the humidity, and the way they were cast. 

Nylon will not instantly self destruct the first time water gets near it. Neither will ABS or PLA. Each of them has a set of solvents that you need to avoid for pretty much instant destruction. Water is not on that list for any of them. 

If you want a funnel that will hold up to normal use and a wide range of solvents, don't use any of them. Funnels are a "dime a dozen" sort of item around here.

Bob

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## curious aardvark

lol one of the things I print quite  a lot of are funnels. 
Being able to make them exactly the size you want is really useful. Plus they print pretty quickly and are a really short openscad script. 

Even the ones I made 2.5 years ago that are in regular use, are absolutely fine. 

Got a pla one in my car I use to fill my windscreen washer bottle. been using it for a couple of years. No signs of wear or degradation. It just gets shaken and put back in car - I don't dry it. 

Hell I even made a special nozzle for piping bags to make filling profiteroles much easier. 
Funnels are great things to make :-) 

But I don't tend to use then for solvents. water, not an issue.

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## Mjolinor

> lol one of the things I print quite  a lot of are funnels. 
> Being able to make them exactly the size you want is really useful. Plus they print pretty quickly and are a really short openscad script. 
> 
> Even the ones I made 2.5 years ago that are in regular use, are absolutely fine. 
> 
> Got a pla one in my car I use to fill my windscreen washer bottle. been using it for a couple of years. No signs of wear or degradation. It just gets shaken and put back in car - I don't dry it. 
> 
> Hell I even made a special nozzle for piping bags to make filling profiteroles much easier. 
> Funnels are great things to make :-) 
> ...


Post the script, save me the work.  :Smile:

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## Ama-fessional Molder

If you want excellent chemical resistance use this:


https://www.amazon.com/Gizmo-Dorks-P...ylene+filament


You're probably not going to have a very good time with it though, if my experience with the material holds true.


I don't understand the cost though, probably a supply and demand issue. PP is a commodity resin.

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## curious aardvark

openscad funnel script makes funnels with 2mm thick wall.  




> $fn=100;
> difference() { //creates the wide top of the funnel
> cylinder(d1=50,d2=12,h=40);
> cylinder(d1=46,d2=8,h=40);
> } // end difference
> 
> difference(){  //creates the spout
> translate ([0,0,40]) cylinder(d1=12,d2=12, h=30);
> translate ([0,0,40]) cylinder(d1=8,d2=8, h=30);
> } // end difference


That's it :-) 
change the cylinder diameters, heights, wall thicknesses and translates for variables and that one script will generate any size funnel you like.  I can't be arsed to do it now :-) 
Change the d2's in the spout section to get a tapered spout. Don't forget to change the internal diameter as well :-)

funnel will print the way up it's generated, with a 2mm wall you can make a pretty steep sided funnel.

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## curious aardvark

wow talk about paranoid: 


> Another issue would be the dangers from extruder nozzles. If the nozzle is made of brass, then lead might leach into the print.


Seriously ?

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## Mjolinor

> wow talk about paranoid: 
> 
> Seriously ?


I doubt it. Well I can't see how you would get lead from copper and zinc but he ho.

Obviously a witch, may we burn her?

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## Ama-fessional Molder

It's certainly true. There is special waste handling requirements when dealing with coolants/cutting oils from shops that machine brass.

I doubt it would be significant from a 3d printer nozzle.

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## NaotoSakaue

I hesitate to write about this. I do not intend to blow my own trumpet. :Big Grin:  
As someone wrote previously, PP is the best material for your purpose. But PP filament has the issue, big CTE. We, NANODAX , has announced glass wool filled PP filament which is really usable.  


Surface is very smooth.Easy to cut, shave the model.Has flexibility and strength.Water tight wall.Light.No odor during process.Endure 120-130 degree.Chemical resistanceParameter tolerance is large

This link to Z-temp forum is good to understand how it behave.
The filament is going to be put into market end of SEP if everything goes well.

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## ralphzoontjens

ABS will work, it's water resistant and very durable.




> Nylon is made by a condensing reaction, that is a water molecule is split off to join two monomers together to form an amide bond. With the help of a water molecule that reaction can be reversed to split in into the monomers again.


I have also seen this with parts printed at Shapeways in nylon - in water they swell up and deform over time.
Practically, do you know how much the nylon will degrade and over what timespan?

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## Alibert

> Practically, do you know how much the nylon will degrade and over what timespan?


There is no simple answer to that, but there are ample papers to be found on the subject under differing conditions. Just google 'nylon degradation'  or 'polyamide degradation'.

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## Alibert

> We, NANODAX , has announced glass wool filled PP filament which is really usable





> The filament is going to be put into market end of SEP if everything goes well.


How high temperature can the printed parts withstand? I am looking for a solvent-resistant filament that can withstand at least 130 C (preferably up to 140-160 C).....

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## curious aardvark

http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.p...t-Free-samples!

check that out alibert. 
very very expensive, but claims to do waht you want.

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