# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > RepRap Format Printer Forum > MakerFarm Forum >  Z banding issue/layers not lining up

## XCopter

Hey guys, been having this issue for quite a while now and I can't seem to get it fixed. 
As you can see in the image, it appears as if the layers are not lined up properly. I have rebuilt my entire x and y axis, made sure there is no play in the hotend or delrin wheels on all axis'. I have also perfectly levelled my bed and am running ABL (have it so well levelled that it only ever fluctuates 1/3 of a turn across the entire layer). I have also tried adjusting acceleration values (speaking of which, what are you all running for that?). 

****UPDATED****
Things I have tried
-Aligning my x extrusions with the y extrusions
-New threaded rod (Only have a little curve to it, barely anything)
-New nuts
-New firmwares
-Stock Firmware
-Rebuilding the printer (pulling most of it apart and tightening most parts, must be missing something though
-Levelling the bed, running without ABL
-Realigning my z axis
-Printing with the heated bed turned off
-Tightening all belts
-Tightening my delrin idlers all the way down
-Increasing voltage to steppers

I do know it's a problem with my z axis as the ribs line up with the threads in the rods

I would LOVE some more advice as to what to change next.. 

banding.jpg
IMG_20150520_211645.jpg
Keep in mind, the black part is just to show what I am talking about, the white part is as good as I can get it now...

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## TechMasterJoe

on my printer
accel = 1500
jerk = 20
z jerk = 1.0
max speeds = 200mm/s 
z max = 2mm/s for stock 5m threaded rod

this is a simple test to see if torsion is the problem
put about 1lbs of dead weight on the ends of the Z axis this will cancel out backlash and torsion
(i did this by tieing string to it and hanging a soda can off each end )

i also see over extrusion
can you post your marlin config file

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## jasay

I'm assuming you've seen Whosawhatsis' page describing various z axis issues.

It's hard to tell from the picture if the whole layer is wider/thinner than the adjourning layers or offset to the side (offset suggests wobble, the entire layer changing width suggests either different amount of plastic extruded or different actual layer height so the plastic gets more squished out on thinner layers).  

It's also hard to see determine the regularity of the pattern (regular and matches z threaded rod pitch may be wobble, regular and doesn't match threaded rod may be poor choice of layer height, irregular may be heat or filament/spool friction, etc.).

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## XCopter

It's the entire layer shifting (as you can see in the photo by the ridge pointing outwards toward the camera)
I read that guide and I was using a .1 layer height which should still be okay. It's only really happening on the y axis (little bit on the x axis but not so extreme). Still looking for answers  :Frown:

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## pichuete

im in the same boat , i have tried everything i have read related to this issue , changed my threaded rods couplers and even motors, re-tight Y and X axis, etc .... extruder calibrations, slicers , and settings .... with little improvements . i honestly thinking of selling my printer at this point . so many issues and poor quality . i havent seen yet a real good print out of a makerfarm to be honest. only some basic shape prints with decent quality ..........

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## XCopter

I could agree with that but I'm going to continue working on it and try to get it solved  :Smile: 
Im thinking it's the x carriage because I just reprinted the object at .2 layer height and the results (banding wise) are far better (still present but smoother and not so abrupt) so I'm guessing it's the flexible plates the extruder and hotend sit on. I would love to get it fixed however.

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## TechMasterJoe

hey guys where are you from maybe we can help
we just need a few things

photos of objects printed 
photos of printer
type , brand ,measured size ,and  color of filaments used and whats on hand
copies of your config and adv config files for your printer
i can edit most configs and get you in the ball park of a UM /AW printer


keep in mind that the bigger the printer the slower you need to print for the same quality
for _Ultimaker_ like prints at 0.05mm layers my print speeds are never over 30mm/s travel never over 100mm/s
Cura is nice but slic3r really is nicer it can be tuned to a Tee to make insanely high quality prints
it just takes small changes one at a time then a print notes are a must for every change

just tuning my printer took almost 2 spools and another 1~2 for tuning the slic3r
witch must be redone with new suppliers

keep in mind you can NOT just download the stock settings and expect it to work perfect.
steps for extruder and stuff are almost always off and things like how level of the table the printer is on can play a part
free moving tight axis play a part but not as much as how square the frame is

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## XCopter

Configuration.h

Hi TechMaster

I'm running the MakerFarm prusa i3v with bed levelling mod, e3d v6 hotend (tuned and calibrated). 
The filament I have (All 3mm)
1x blue abs from Makerfarm 
1x Bright green abs from Makergeeks
1x Glow in the dark ABS from Diamondage
1x Black PLA from Makergeeks
1x Clear PLA from Diamondage
1x Red PLA from Diamondage
1x Sapphire PLA from Diamondage

I have gone through, tightened belts, wheels, made sure there was no slop anywhere, tried tuning speeds, no improvements. I have tried all kind of printing settings (I have seasoned my hotend with canola oil). 
I really do believe this banding is a mechanical issue, not software but I'm open to suggestions  :Big Grin:

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## TechMasterJoe

here some of your speeds are well dreams homing and probing needs to be slow or it will toss a monky in the mix
with stock 5mm rods Z max speed 1~1.5mm/s is as fast as i personal think you can get away with out missing steps this will make for the problems you seam to talk about
your Z accel was way up as well this makes think it was missing for sure 

if you use z hop (i do but not very often)
.05~.1mm is all you need if it sounds like it's scratching the last layer your putting to much plastic down making ridges for it to hit
when the first layer is down it needs to look and feel smooth if infill is bunching up by the prems change the infill over lap setting in your slicer cura and slic3r default to 15%
i have mine at 2% some cases 1%

i hope your next test print looks better
if you can grab a photo of the first layer down on the print bed it will help 

here is a quick sample print from mine just so you have an idea what you can get to
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l1nzqvgdbz...34.27.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8teh0wkur8...33.13.jpg?dl=0

note i use volumetric printing
cura volumetric start G code i use you must pick volumetric under gcode flavor for machine settings


```
;Sliced at: {day} {date} {time}
;Basic settings: Layer height: {layer_height} Walls: {wall_thickness} Fill: {fill_density}
;Print time: {print_time}
;Filament used: {filament_amount}m {filament_weight}g
;Filament cost: {filament_cost}
;M190 S{print_bed_temperature} ;Uncomment to add your own bed temperature line
;M109 S{print_temperature} ;Uncomment to add your own temperature line
G21        ;metric values
G90        ;absolute positioning
M82        ;set extruder to absolute mode
G28 X0 Y0 ; home all axes
M200 D{filament_diameter} T0 ;turns on volumetric for marlin and sets dia to cura settings
G28 Z0
G29 E V3 ;remove E if using roxy build of marlin i use 3-15-2015 dev build from repo and update a lot
G1 Z5.0 F800
G92 E0
G1 E2 F200
G92 E0
;Put printing message on LCD screen
M117 Printing...
```

same for slic3r


```
M200 D[filament_diameter_0] T0
G28 X0 Y0 ; home all axes
G28 Z0
G29 E P5 V3
```

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## XCopter

Cheers for the help!!

I found the z speeds were only missing the odd step (very rarely) when accelerating or decelerating but never had issues when it was running. 
I am also finding I get plenty of extrusion at the ends of moves but often under extruded in the middle when printing with my e3d at 50-60mm/s so that shows I should just slow it down. Do you have any tips for increasing extrusion speed on the e3d's? I've seasoned, cleaned it, always ran my filament through a filament cleaner and begun to do clean pulls lately (after cleaning the nozzle and rest of the heat break). 
My first layers tend to looks pretty good and I'm happy with them but I will grab a photo for you if you really need it. 

So what changes did you make to the file?

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## TechMasterJoe

> Cheers for the help!!
> 
> I found the z speeds were only missing the odd step (very rarely) when accelerating or decelerating but never had issues when it was running. 
> I am also finding I get plenty of extrusion at the ends of moves but often under extruded in the middle when printing with my e3d at 50-60mm/s so that shows I should just slow it down. Do you have any tips for increasing extrusion speed on the e3d's? I've seasoned, cleaned it, always ran my filament through a filament cleaner and begun to do clean pulls lately (after cleaning the nozzle and rest of the heat break). 
> My first layers tend to looks pretty good and I'm happy with them but I will grab a photo for you if you really need it. 
> 
> So what changes did you make to the file?




```
#define HOMING_FEEDRATE {60*60, 60*60, 100, 0}  // set the homing speeds (mm/min)

#define DEFAULT_AXIS_STEPS_PER_UNIT   {80,80,4000,872.8}  // default steps per unit for Ultimaker
#define DEFAULT_MAX_FEEDRATE          {250, 250, 1.5, 20}    // (mm/sec)
#define DEFAULT_MAX_ACCELERATION      {1000,1000,3,500}    // X, Y, Z, E maximum start speed for accelerated moves. E default values are good for Skeinforge 40+, for older versions raise them a lot.
#define DEFAULT_ACCELERATION          800    // X, Y, Z and E max acceleration in mm/s^2 for printing moves
#define DEFAULT_RETRACT_ACCELERATION  1200   // X, Y, Z and E max acceleration in mm/s^2 for retracts
```

try doing a thin print at 20mm/s all setting prems infill and such
if it's dead flat and looks really good
try raising XY jerk to 24.00mm/s and XY accel to 2000mm/s and test around 80mm/s print speeds the v6 will do it with a .5+ nozzle anysmaller and you just can't feed that fast thanks to the gear ratio
BUT i have a low gear set if you like your steps will drop to around 370 per mm but it help with the limits of the RAMPS / avr based boards
Gregs10_LowRatio16_40__repaired_.stl

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## XCopter

So the only changes made are seen above^? 
Cheers for that, I will try that again tomorrow. 
By the way, I'm from NZ to answer one of your older questions.

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## XCopter

An acceleration value of 3mm/s^2 seems crazily slow for the z axis????

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## TechMasterJoe

how often it really need to move and Z = precession want fast get some 2-4 start lead screws and nuts with 2mm pitch
then speeds around 5mm/s and 15~18 for accel not a problem but threaded rods where made to bind and stick not to move a printer axiz

btw my printer has been switched to 8mm threaded rods 1.25mm pitch with apx a 30% speed boost it was worth the 6$ US i spent.
and with 2560 steps per mm i feel i still have the same precession as before

with 8mm i start skipping steps with accel over 7mm/s so mines at 6mm/s so doing the math based on steps 3-4mm/s is safe
the math is simple find the ratio then multiply
2560/4000 = 0.64
6 * 0.64 = 3.84
this is how i came up with the number
but other things do need to be taken in to account
my TH rods are much heaver buy almost 3X EACH this will account for a lot(i have extended my Z to just over of 2 feet lol)
with this all accounted for i think 5mm/s is a better safe zone
but this number on Z with have very little impact on prints unless your using Z hop witch i do not recommend using without adding some type on anti-backlash system to Zaxiz
i have files for a anti-backlash on mine i made but they are for 8mm rods and black oxide nuts + a 8lbs push 9mm ID spring for each side

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## XCopter

Just started a print with those new values and increased my xy jerk to 24mm/s and the acc values to 2000 as stated. The e3d extrusion, still however looks terrible when printing at 70mm/s (just started a print now for the laughs). The printer already seems to behaving far nicer with these new acc and jerk values. Thanks for the help. What printer do you use?

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## TechMasterJoe

i3v 12" and i3V 10" plus an org i3 8"

8in and 10 are apart atm so only my modded 12"
hexagon hotends with E3D nozzles (have a few v6 as well but can't tell them apart when E3D nozzles are used)
I'm about 80% done building a pellet fed monster with over 50meters of print area

I'm print a vase right now at 120mm/s on the i3v 12" but it's tuned to a Tee

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## TechMasterJoe



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## XCopter

Wowwww, thats impressive! So what hotend would you recommend for printing fast in pla with?
Oh and thoughts on delta printers?

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## TechMasterJoe

i have a bowden like setup in a sense i find 90+% of all Z problems is the z moving when pulling filament from the spool 
i  fixed this by putting all my filament on a rack away from the printer  and feeding it in PTFE tubing this slave countless issues i was having
to  tell if this might be part of it try cutting a small piece of filament  off the spool just what you need for 1 print and let the coil sit on the  table or hang down free going thru the spool holder and into the extruder
having that weight up top plays hell with how square the printer stays when it rocks it twist everything

i'm using in a sense a E3D V6 just a tad shorter the V6(hexagons are clones of it) will do it just fine it just took a lot to git here
any 3D print you buy be it parts kits or complete will need tweaks no way around it

adding tubing to guide filament, keeping weight off the frame, don't pay to much attention to the measured test (mm of filament per step mine about 20 steps shy of what it is post to be)
adding backlash control to Zaxiz, changing to acme rods will make a BIG impact on Z ribbing (still needs anti-backlash),

my printer will print .025 layers at this point without errors when i first built the 12" it it sucked a printing anything under .25 layer height

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## XCopter

My prints are already looking ten times better!!
Still have a little bit of those wobble issues as mentioned above but they're only existent on the y axis now. Could you please post a photo of the ptfe tubing thing? Im curious as to how I would set it up. Oh and what do you use as a filament stand?

I completely understand what you mean by the tuning side of things, I have just tried everything I thought was right so I decided to seek better advice  :Big Grin:  it looks like I got it too!

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## TechMasterJoe

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z6yd8lryid...23.05.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fpukgiseb7...23.12.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cga8nf43r5...23.17.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yymuftri4i...23.27.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x81dstpykp...23.32.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4g83zlwcs...22.29.mp4?dl=0 video of last few layers

thats about the best you can get at that speed BTW the vase top is 168mm in dia so
ya it really was holding around 100mm/s avg


update LOL
it holds water !

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## XCopter

Nah, I mean photos of the printer  :Smile:

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## TechMasterJoe

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lurzrowiv1...38.35.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l1qc82xfa3...38.49.jpg?dl=0
this is the old setup but work just as well lol don't want to get up printers on the other side of the house
you can just hang the filament on anything a pair of shelf brackets and a 1in SCH40 pvc pipe  will hold about 8 rolls 

if your going to say hang them on the wall make the tube longer and atach the inlet on the same thing that hold the filament

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## XCopter

Lol fair enough. Where did you source your ptfe tubing from?  Oh and why do you have that pneumatic connector on the end coming into the extruder?

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## TechMasterJoe

> Lol fair enough. Where did you source your ptfe tubing from?  Oh and why do you have that pneumatic connector on the end coming into the extruder?


it acts like a stop if the tube gets pulled in the filament will slip and it just rests on the little fork on the guider
keep in mind i use 1.75mm filament the blue PLA used is from Toybuilder labs print

the PTFE tubing is from a local chain here in california
http://www.grainger.com/category/ptf...FN-a9zZ1z0n42c
i payed for a 25 foot roll apx 60$

btw print data
02:22:32.584 : N119529 G28 X0 *76
02:22:32.584 : N119530 G28 Y0 *69
02:22:32.586 : Printjob finished at 3/31/2015 2:22 AM
02:22:32.586 : Printing Time: 0h:51m:2s
02:22:32.586 : Lines Send: 91692
02:22:32.586 : Total Layers: 500

and
filament used = 8220.7mm (19.8cm3)

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## XCopter

Cheers. What should I do about retract issues? Upon further reading on the e3d wiki page, they say no more than .8mm retract should be used with pla and I have been using 1.5mm. I'm guessing this is part of my issue so I have reduced it to .85mm and a speed on 12mm/s (anything higher and it will miss steps). I could lower temps but that changed print quality.

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## TechMasterJoe

> Cheers. What should I do about retract issues? Upon further reading on the e3d wiki page, they say no more than .8mm retract should be used with pla and I have been using 1.5mm. I'm guessing this is part of my issue so I have reduced it to .85mm and a speed on 12mm/s (anything higher and it will miss steps). I could lower temps but that changed print quality.


what are you using for a slicer
i really hope it supports G10/G11 
firmware retraction is kinda new but man it works well
i use 1.75 and retraction is a little more aggressive

but my retract while printing the vase was 0.75mm at 20mm/s retraction 5mm/s return (a pro to firmware retraction as you can set a speed for each direction)
i did have retract on layer change enabled

honestly i get damn close to the same thing with or without it. it help with layer seam size for me makes it a lot smaller
the only time i had problems where it seamed i just had to use it was when i was over extruding
what i think you might want to try is a all cylinder spiral vase like with cura and use a bunch of tweak Z's to drop flow by 1% every 2~5mm 
even if you have steps right most slicers tend to push to much in my mind
let it print all the way down to say 85% flow
 when its done see where it looks the best and meseure and divied by your % to height ratio
once you find that spot 
take your steps per mm and multiply by the percentage
so say you start with a tweak z a 5mm to set flow to 99% and every 2mm you drop 1% (skip a few mm at the start as a base line for current settings)
and lets say at 27mm tall it looks darn close to perfection 
27mm -5mm = 22mm (ditch the base line test)
22mm / 2mm = 11 
100% - 11 = 89%

872.8 * 0.89 = 777 this is the new steps per mm (it's best to round to a full step the motor can't be any finer then the micro stepping is)
in my mind the base measuring using calipers is good for getting close to be safe you have to experiment to get it good 

if you don't want to setup cura just drop flow at each Z height by hand on the LCD or in the software you use

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## printbus

> ... the v6 will do it with a .5+ nozzle anysmaller and you just can't feed that fast thanks to the gear ratio
> BUT i have a low gear set if you like your steps will drop to around 370 per mm but it help with the limits of the RAMPS / avr based boards


The "anysmaller can't go faster" seems counter-intuitive.  The smaller extrusion area of a smaller nozzle should require less speed from the extruder motor, not more.  There's a limit on the filament volume rate that any hot end can melt; one possibility for extrusion problems with smaller nozzles at high print speeds is that the extrusion might not be as fluid and the extruder motor has a tougher time pushing it out the nozzle.

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## TechMasterJoe

> The "anysmaller can't go faster" seems counter-intuitive.  The smaller extrusion area of a smaller nozzle should require less speed from the extruder motor, not more.  There's a limit on the filament volume rate that any hot end can melt; one possibility for extrusion problems with smaller nozzles at high print speeds is that the extrusion might not be as fluid and the extruder motor has a tougher time pushing it out the nozzle.


i agree 100% really i was thinking the same thing
just in almost every test i have tried smaller nozzle the extruder force seams to go up exponentially with Speed vs nozzle size
auto temp helps a TON if you set it up right but you need a hot end that heats up and cools very fast
and i see it working best with solid hotend like Budaschnozzle 
i have found 1.75 filament will print faster with small nozzles vs 3mm
but the real limit here is thermal dynamics and bigger melt zones changes things Big time
the biggest problem is X Y vs Extruder Timings, when ramp up and down x & Y for accel and Jerk control 
the Extruder dose it's own thing.
marlin touches on this a little with the advance extrude but the math in place is old and missing a lot data thanks to the AVR limits

8bit AVR vs 32 bit
at around 180mm/s you hit a invisible speed wall with RAMBO when using ABL it's not 100% and will very 20mm/s or so
travel rate will go faster because your not using AVR clock cycles on extruding
with ABL disabled you will see that wall gets pushed back to 200~230mm/s 
this is what i can see with my own eyes plus using a 600 cpr encoders on my X & Y axis
and logging the data (teensy 3.1 used to read encoders)

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## XCopter

So, I did that e-steps fine calibration thing you were talking about and I moved my e-steps down to 810 (from 871). Prints are already beginning to look better and I am running it now. 
I run both Cura and Slic3r. Depends on the mood  :Smile:

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## AbuMaia

> what i think you might want to try is a all cylinder spiral vase like with cura and use a bunch of tweak Z's to drop flow by 1% every 2~5mm


 Now when doing this with the Tweak Z, do you use the General Flow Rate?  

What if you're already, in the Basic tab of Cura, using a filament Flow %? If Tweak Z at 5mm changes General Flow Rate to 99%, is that treating the filament Flow % (I have it set for this filament to 108%) as the 100% basis, or is that overriding the 108% and dropping it straight to 99%?

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## XCopter

So no matter what I do, I still can't seem to get my prints looking half decent. This was printed at a .2 layer height while still looking horrible. I'm truly lost for what to do now. I'm now thinking of building another printer (http://builda3dprinter.eu/build-manuals/ Kossel XL) because this one is just giving me too many problems without any improvements.

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## BLKKROW

I am in no means an expert with the Prusa as I am still working with mine. But I have had another 3D printer in the past.

#1 Have you checked the eccentric spacer and how tight or loose it is against the rails? If that wheel is loose then it can cause a straight edge to be wavy.

#2 I read that you switch in between Cura and Slic3r. I would recommend selecting one and mastering the slicer, that will really help your quality.

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## XCopter

#1 Yes, I tightened them, then pulled both of the axis' apart to check for slop in the bearings and there was none. I then put it back together and made sure the wheels were tight and there was no slop. 

#2. I used Cura for around 6 months and had it really well tuned in (but I was still getting this problem) but I then tuned in Slic3r as by Colins recommendations and saw little improvement.

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## TechMasterJoe

can i get a copy of your complete firmware folder
I'm going to use the data to edit my extremely modded copy of marlin for your printer
any chance you can upload a video of it printing to youtube or something

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## XCopter

Marlin.zip

Heres the entire file for you. 

I can upload a video tomorrow sometime as its getting late here now. 
What exactly do you want a video of?

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## TechMasterJoe

ok download this use the newest ver of arduino 1.6.1
and add the included libraries and addon's to it

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...evelopment.zip

this has a lot more extras
firmware retract is enabled but auto is disabled
 if you want to use it just tick the box in slic3r under extruder options. (very useful)

on first power open something and send 
M502 > send
M500 > send
M501 > Send
disconnect then reconnect
this will make sure the EPROM has updated stored setting to match firmware

thinky and i added support for a lot of things but the current dev is unstable this build is about 3 weeks old but is rock solid
i run it on my rig right now
the atached STL is low ratio gears with them your extruder steps WILL be 360~400 with stock extruder

as for video i need a video of the Z rods, X axis and Y stepper
while Printing print something like a vase with 0% infill 2 prems 0 top layers 3 bottom layers

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## TechMasterJoe

here is a few shots of a knob i printed a few mins ago
print time 8mins 
layer height .2 
100% infill
Slic3r 1.2.6

another thing i was thinking was do you have a web cam ?
if so maybe i can link up and you can give me a walk around of the printer

i see a few things off the top of my head the Y belts are to lose or to tight.
the mount on the bed is moving (i Epoxied mine to the bed nothing else i tried got rid of the flex tell i glued it)
one or both of the Zrodz are bent more then a 1/2in (do not try to stop them from moving around on top let them swing)
one of the wheels on the Y bed is not tight make them Tight let them Clamp on the rails the wheels will ware in
i have custom mounts for 8mm rods and nuts if you want to give that a shot i can toss you the STL's
your Z steps drop to 2560 but it's still good for .025 layer printing well at least for me
i still see over extruding
and your printing to fast
the default speeds in slic3r are about as fast as you want to go when testing
*in fact set slic3r's speed settings to defaults when you do the video*
or set cura print speed to 60 and under adv set them all to 0 but first layer to 30mm/s

and Deltas are nice but a headache Very hard to tune if even one arm is off by 1mm that error is *1.2121*cos of arm angle and it's really not worth it unless you get a 32bit control boards
if you do get one don't bother with a LCD they make them freak out just to weak a cpu on the 8 bit boards to run a display in a usable way

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## XCopter

Right, so I added those libraries you were talking about and now onto the file side of things. 

That marlin config you included, have you updated all of my configurations? They looked pretty familiar but I just want to be sure. 
So why should I now be using this new version of Marlin?

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## TechMasterJoe

we have been fixing a lot of stepper timing and base code is just another world at this point the ver on the makerfarm servers is almost 2 years old
yes all the configs are ready compile and upload

i have my XY jerk at 18.0 and i can print things the size of the gopro mount at 80~100mm/s with ease but to get a clean print with no ripple the cap is around 50mm/s prems 35~45mm/s external prems
i print infill at 100mm/s travel at 160mm/s

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## XCopter

Well thats a shame about the delta printer-Heck, the flight controllers for my quadcopters are running 32 bit cpu's.... (I rely on the lcd screen for printing with because I don't want to leave my computer in the garage all the time because I use it way too much (I fly rc which requires a fair amount of work on the computer)). 
I have tried all kinds of belt tensions, none of which an improvement. All the wheels are tight as and there's no slop in the carriages. 
The print was done at 20mm/s on the first layer and 40 for the perm, and 50 for the infill so I'm already printing pretty slowly (I absolutely hate this e3d). The steps are already at 804 (after doing that one wall vase calibration you suggested). 
I think I will pass on the 8mm rods.. Cheers. 
And regarding the webcam thing, I have my macbook pro with the camera except I don't get wifi in the garage... I will shoot a video with my gopro tomorrow and upload it.

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## XCopter

Wait... 
Do you work at Makerfarm?

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## TechMasterJoe

> Wait... 
> Do you work at Makerfarm?


LOL no i own a CNC machine Shop.
i got 3 more parts left for my 11ft tall delta (custom smothieboard with 4amp drivers for NEMA 23 5.18:1 geared)
I'm also building a pellet feed Cartesian printer with 4 5mm nozzles i want to try and print a car

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## adamfilip

> how often it really need to move and Z = precession want fast get some 2-4 start lead screws and nuts with 2mm pitch
> then speeds around 5mm/s and 15~18 for accel not a problem but threaded rods where made to bind and stick not to move a printer axiz
> 
> btw my printer has been switched to 8mm threaded rods 1.25mm pitch with apx a 30% speed boost it was worth the 6$ US i spent.
> and with 2560 steps per mm i feel i still have the same precession as before
> 
> with 8mm i start skipping steps with accel over 7mm/s so mines at 6mm/s so doing the math based on steps 3-4mm/s is safe
> the math is simple find the ratio then multiply
> 2560/4000 = 0.64
> ...


I upgraded to Geared Nema 17 Z Steppers and I cant go over 2mm/sec without skipping.. my Steps are up to 12800 steps / mm
its definately slowed down my Auto Bed levelling sequence. hard to tell if it really is making it better

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## swirvbox

What problems are you having with your E3D, XCopter?  I have had a v5.5(v5 with v6 nozzle and heater block) on my Mendel90 for quite a while and it has never let me down. I was having the same issues you are with layers not lining up on my i3v 12" as well.  Try this... grab some blue painter's tape and tape up a section of the bed, print something in PLA and set the bed temp to 0.  If you have an improvement in print quality, as I did, your power supply may not be up to pushing that 12" bed.  

I had our 46A ATX psu give up on us last week and was having to print without the heated bed.  DRASTIC improvement in layer quality.  I was floored.  I have replaced my psu with a 12V 30A PSU that is pretty standard.  But guess what?  When the bed is used layers look uneven.   I may look into running a separate psu just for the bed.

I am also frustrated with my i3v.  If I can't get this thing printing any better, I may just use the bits to make a Mendel90 out of it.  We don't have any of these issues with our big Mendel90 (made of hickory, 10" build plate, water cooled E3D Kracken).

swirvbox

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## printbus

> So no matter what I do, I still can't seem to get my prints looking half decent. This was printed at a .2 layer height while still looking horrible. I'm truly lost for what to do now.


Do you have any filament other than the translucent blue?  I have found  my translucent to be slightly more challenging than solid colors because  of what it reveals.  For a mechanical thing to check, I'd scrutinize your extruder drive  train.  Pull the filament out of the extruder and with power off or  steppers disabled, rotate the large gear manually and see how smooth the  rotation feels.  Make sure the large gear isn't rubbing against the  bolts for the two wheels at the top of the X-carriage; rubbing there has  led to similar appearances for a few people in the past.  I'd also make  sure the small gear on the motor and the large gear on the hobbed bolt  are aligned. Proper alignment can be tricky, since the herringbone teeth  will attempt to pull the gears into alignment but with side forces that  leave the gear teeth gnashing a bit in rotation.  Look down from above  and see if the large gear seems to be parallel to the x-carriage. If it  isn't, the gears aren't aligned and the small gear is pulling/pushing  the large gear off-axis.  This is also something you can definitely get a  feel for by rotating the large gear manually while trying different  locations of the small gear on the motor shaft.  Ultimately consider pulling the motor so you can get a feel for how smoothly the large gear and hobbed bolt rotate by themselves.  I've had the large gear tighten up against the extruder body by itself and start messing up prints because of the added drag on the drive train.  

I assume you're  still using the MakerFarm gears, which for now is good - inadequate  thermal management leads a lot of people to initially print bad small  gears, often without them realizing the teeth aren't shaped properly.   BTW - Is this PLA? A print cooler will also help to crisp up the corners and other  aspects of the prints.   

FOLLOWUP COMMENT: I'm focusing on the extruder because your pictures seem to show similar issues on both x and y. The extruder is one thing in common...




> I upgraded to Geared Nema 17 Z Steppers and I cant go over 2mm/sec without skipping.. my Steps are up to 12800 steps / mm
> its definately slowed down my Auto Bed levelling sequence. hard to tell if it really is making it better


Skipped the design process, huh?  The stock configuration already has  more Z resolution than necessary. 12800 steps/mm is asking Marlin to  deal with a per-step resolution of 0.000078125 mm, or 78.125  nanometers/step.  That's just a burden.  You're likely up against multiple stops - the  rotational speed of the motors in the geared steppers, and the fixed upper  limit on Marlin step rate.  If you haven't already, one thing you could  try is setting up the Z-axis for full steps on the Z motors instead of microstepping (assuming your electronics allows that). That would  help reduce the number of step pulses required and also give the stepper more torque, but could still leave  you with the rotational limit of the motors themselves.

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## XCopter

The filament I have (All 3mm)
1x blue abs from Makerfarm 
1x Bright green abs from Makergeeks
1x Glow in the dark ABS from Diamondage
1x Black PLA from Makergeeks
1x Clear PLA from Diamondage
1x Red PLA from Diamondage
1x Sapphire PLA from Diamondage

All these prints I have showed you guys have been in pla. I have a 40mm fan blowing on the print on the x carriage and I have a 120mm computer fan blowing on the print from the side. 

Swirvbox, I am running the 8 inch i3v, not the 10 or 12 inch. It makes no difference if the bed is it 0 degrees or 110. 

I will have a look at the extruder like you suggested printbus and I will also try printing a new set of gears to see how it goes (won't use them as the MakerFarm ones are still okay)

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## TechMasterJoe

> The filament I have (All 3mm)
> 1x blue abs from Makerfarm 
> 1x Bright green abs from Makergeeks
> 1x Glow in the dark ABS from Diamondage
> 1x Black PLA from Makergeeks
> 1x Clear PLA from Diamondage
> 1x Red PLA from Diamondage
> 1x Sapphire PLA from Diamondage
> 
> ...


use black PLA for testing PLA will almost always give you the best prints when looking for problems
how many dots do you have on the nozzle on your V6 ?
and printbus is right about power and heat management
for PLA my hotbed is 75c for the first layer 40c for all other layers
for ABS my hotbed is 105c for first layer 70c for other layers
i use only hair spray for both PLA and ABS 
(Garnier Fructis Style Anti-Humidity Hairspray with bambo)
hint: lite mist with glass cleaner before printing while bed is hot
 just don't drop any thing on it it gets super sticky.

make 100 % sure your threaded Z rods are not slipping and are straight
if your driving both Z motors from the same driver chip on the ramps board remember that it's feeding 2 steppers so you need to crank up the power more
my Z driver is kicking out around 1.8 amps my others are around 0.7 or so amps
i wish i can help you with that but you got to turn them little pots. do use a volt meter aim for around 1~1.2 volts
unplug main power and run off usb for adjusting.
you might want to try swapping driver boards around maybe your getting an unstable signal as well
Z need more power then anything as if even a few micro steps miss it will mess with layer heights

and to adam
your best bets are disable microstepping and or with them motors is get some 8 start leedscrews look for TR8*8 screws 8mm dia 8mm pitch vs the 0.8mm pitch for the 5mm rods or bump to 10mm threaded rod with 2mm pitch
honestly the only times i used geared steppers was a custom extruder i built with a Nema 8 5.18:1 and as drives on a delta but with a 32bit smothieboard

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## TechMasterJoe

> I upgraded to Geared Nema 17 Z Steppers and I cant go over 2mm/sec without skipping.. my Steps are up to 12800 steps / mm
> its definately slowed down my Auto Bed levelling sequence. hard to tell if it really is making it better


over the last few weeks marlin has under gone massive changes it's still got a few weeks left before they are done but ABL has never been very accurate that's why it so important that you make the bed level
if you want to try the newer ver of marlin i posted for Xcopter feel free just remember to change the config to match yours if your rocking the 12" i can just give you my config just change your steps and z probe angles
my config is for the RAMBO board
with the newer firmware you can look up the boards in the boards.h file

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## XCopter

The video I'm currently waiting to upload is still on my old version of marlin and after this, I will flash the new one on. 
We can't get that hairspray here in NZ, I've looked haha....
1-1.2v for steppers is a lot, Makerfarm suggested .4?
As it is, the stepper motors get hot..

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## XCopter

Heres the video for you guys. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T0M4Nm39_I

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## TechMasterJoe

> The video I'm currently waiting to upload is still on my old version of marlin and after this, I will flash the new one on. 
> We can't get that hairspray here in NZ, I've looked haha....
> 1-1.2v for steppers is a lot, Makerfarm suggested .4?
> As it is, the stepper motors get hot..


start at .6v for Z motors only
we all love vibration dampeners but if it flexes even just a little it will play hell with the print
they work best for screw driven or belt systems that use idle shafts like the gantry system on the ultimaker and what not
please do try taking that off your Yaxis i find using a 2~3mm cork spacer works better for sound deadening anyways

lol you have an epic 280 too lol
mines setup pure FPV racing the corse me and the guys set has all of us behind a wall so you can only fly with fpv

i can show you some time how i made my motors for lower kv and use aggressive cut down 10 X 6.5 bladed to 5.5 X 6.5 3 bladed i have clocked my 280 over 80mph on a 7cell
i 3d printed spacers that tilt my motors and board fwd by 10 degrees so it looks funny when hovering it's at an angle lol but it's at 10degs less of an angle when flying fwd at full speed
when i get my new custom ESC's i made done and it all in one piece i will shoot some pics
btw with the old esc's and setup i lifted 9.3lbs of dead weight for 30secs with power to spare so my custom 4808 motors are real beasts made of carbon fiber plate titanium 4mm shafts ceramic bearings

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## XCopter

4808 motors on a 280 frame!?!?!?! Thats cray cray!
I loove my epic it's just pretty heavy. I was flying this morning in deans bush and man it's quick. Im running cobra motors because I'm cheap! lol I can't really say much, I'm sponsored now aahahaha. 
If you're on Facebook, you should join the Mini Quad Club! Its an awesome group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/miniquadclub/

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## TechMasterJoe

> 4808 motors on a 280 frame!?!?!?! Thats cray cray!
> I loove my epic it's just pretty heavy. I was flying this morning in deans bush and man it's quick. Im running cobra motors because I'm cheap! lol I can't really say much, I'm sponsored now aahahaha. 
> If you're on Facebook, you should join the Mini Quad Club! Its an awesome group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/miniquadclub/


lol love to but I'm 7000 miles away i live in sunny California

my hand made 4808 motors are 42.6 grams use aluminum wire and have a titanium/carbon fiber frame 22N24P and are dead on at 260Kv i have only burned one up ever on a test bench and it took 10mins solid at 960watts
with the ohm load and tested limits im sure they will be fine right up to 10 cells 
the main pro to the low kv is lower heat and more efficiency at a basic hover with gps lock on and my custom 1200ma 7cell LiFe packs i can watch a movie before the battery dies my pack times are just under 50mins
the down side is it has to much power it i have massive curves on my raido and very odd PID problems because of that it hovers with less then 5% stick with a flat curve and i have taken it past the range of my FPV going straight up gps logged max at 13,814feet and only took 18 sec's to get to 8,000 feet i was at the hammers (off road place about 120miles from my house) ground is 104feet off sea level so that's a crazy fast climb
btw my FPV has a modded output stage my broadcast power is just pver 6watts at 832mhz long wave or apx 40miles line of sight

btw i'm building a set of 12 custom 48P motors 135mm dia motors getting ready for beer lift comp going with 28X12 props lol going to be fun

going to try and pick up a smart car !

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## XCopter

Hahhaha thats awesome! I'm more or less just trying to increase my flying skills.. Still... I used to fly cp heli's but fpv is an entirely different ballgame! 'Tis good fun though! 

So tomorrow, i will try .6v on the z axis stepper motors. What should I move the xy steppers to?

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## tsteever

Tech master,

I am using a Rumba board. Can I use that firmware and change the Rumba necessary settings without trouble? I grabbed the firmware from Marlin about a month ago but if yours has improvements that would improve things I may give that a try.

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## TechMasterJoe

> Tech master,
> 
> I am using a Rumba board. Can I use that firmware and change the Rumba necessary settings without trouble? I grabbed the firmware from Marlin about a month ago but if yours has improvements that would improve things I may give that a try.


that firmware is dated 3-15-15 but ya if you want just make sure you change all the settings to match your rig

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## XCopter

Well, I now believe this is a mechanical issue within the printer. All of this work has got the printer running smoothly but the issue is still there. 
I just get z wobble and occasionally z banding (depending on what layer height I print at). 
Does anyone have any suggestions of things to go over to check to resolve this issue? Keep in mind, I just replaced my z threaded rods as the old ones were a tiny bit bent but I have seen no improvements. Other than that, the xyz axis' are all stock standard.

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## pichuete

im having the same issue for several months already too.  i even replaced my rods to ACME 8mm (2mm Pitch) and still im having issues.  i think i have probably a bent wood frame or something . ...... its frustrating...........

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## XCopter

Well I have decided to replace my z couplers and possibly my z threaded rods again. This time all from Makerfarm. 
I will be contacting Makerfarm again about the issue (he previously just said it was a problem with the slicer-I use Cura)
I have also decided to rebuild the nut traps using a design I found on thingiverse. 
I will also add some ptfe tubing as suggested in this thread here https://www.evernote.com/shard/s211/...c268dcdd2d687e
Lastly, I will be designing a new friction free spool holder using bearings and 5mm smooth rod for my filament to sit on. I will also be moving all my filament onto the wall behind my printer.

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## BLKKROW

Have you leveled your X axis aluminum extrusions to your Y axis ones? I was having similar issues and it turns out mine were out of line by a few mm's.

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## XCopter

What do you mean?

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## XCopter

Wait, do you mean level each set of extrusion with eachother?

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## BLKKROW

http://imgur.com/PDsOw9f

http://imgur.com/pkKgViw

This is what I mean, you need to make sure the distance from the Y axis extrusions are same on both sides to the X axis.

Originally I just placed a level on my X axis and leveled it but it left a huge slope on my print bed causing similar issues to yours.

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## XCopter

Yep, they're perfect
*
Please check the original post for an updated list of things I have tried*

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## dunginhawk

you are much more willing to put in a ton of effort to fix the issue.  I think its just an issue, period.  You will spend the cost of the printer replacing parts, and it may never solve the issue.
Im going to tighten things down, check levels, and a few more things. if that doesnt work.. not sure ill keep it. especially not when i can get amazing prints out of my FFCP, i just wish they made a bigger one

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## XCopter

Lol, I haven't spent that much trying to fix it.. new z rods-$4, couplers (on the way) $10 and the rest is just effort and stuff I have lying around. 
And well, I'm stubborn. I don't give up easily.

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## Nihonddd

I had a twisted frame too. I understand your frustrations. 
I cramped it, filleted the mainframe between the perpendicular panels and then fixed it down to 25mm MDF. I was a hell of a job to remove the twist and took about a week. Hadn't had it very long either.

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## Carrot_or_Stick

I had something similar though not quite as regular as yours pattern-wise on the print. 

If you have a glass bed set your nozzle to be just above the glass in the center of the bed, as close as you can. Then, turn the heated bed on and see if your glass moves downward. What would happen for me was the PCB heater warps when it heats up because the center heats quicker than the sides. This warping would allow the glass to also move downwards and upwards a few tenths of a millimeter during prints every time the heater turned on an off to keep the temp regular. You can try to brace the middle of the bed underneath so when it heats up it has nowhere to go. I have since moved to aluminum with a brace and my prints no longer have any banding.

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## voodoo28

Carrot, can you post a pic of your aluminum setup?
Where did ya get it?



> I had something similar though not quite as regular as yours pattern-wise on the print. 
> 
> If you have a glass bed set your nozzle to be just above the glass in the center of the bed, as close as you can. Then, turn the heated bed on and see if your glass moves downward. What would happen for me was the PCB heater warps when it heats up because the center heats quicker than the sides. This warping would allow the glass to also move downwards and upwards a few tenths of a millimeter during prints every time the heater turned on an off to keep the temp regular. You can try to brace the middle of the bed underneath so when it heats up it has nowhere to go. I have since moved to aluminum with a brace and my prints no longer have any banding.

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## Carrot_or_Stick

> Carrot, can you post a pic of your aluminum setup?
> Where did ya get it?


I got the plates from a friend of my father in law. They came at no cost but have some scratches / scuffs that I will need to sand out at some point. They are 1/8" thick 3030 aluminum.

IMG_0107.jpgIMG_0108.jpgIMG_0117.jpg

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## voodoo28

Awesome!.. I have a sheet of 7076 that i might use...i see that ur also using the sensor recommend on thingiverse..i bought one but have not messed with it yet.. How is it working out for you?


> I got the plates from a friend of my father in law. They came at no cost but have some scratches / scuffs that I will need to sand out at some point. They are 1/8" thick 3030 aluminum.
> 
> IMG_0107.jpgIMG_0108.jpgIMG_0117.jpg

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## Carrot_or_Stick

My sensor is model # LJC18A3-H-Z/BX and is able to detect any material (instead of just metal) and it works really well. It's rated to run off 6v minimum but it's working fine off the 5v from the Rumba board, it just has a smaller window of detection.




> Awesome!.. I have a sheet of 7076 that i might use...i see that ur also using the sensor recommend on thingiverse..i bought one but have not messed with it yet.. How is it working out for you?

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## voodoo28

do you find it more accurate than the servo/probe?


> My sensor is model # LJC18A3-H-Z/BX and is able to detect any material (instead of just metal) and it works really well. It's rated to run off 6v minimum but it's working fine off the 5v from the Rumba board, it just has a smaller window of detection.

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## Carrot_or_Stick

Never tried the servo route, the sensor seemed like it had fewer points of failure so I went straight to it. It does produce very accurate / repeatable results though so I am pleased.




> do you find it more accurate than the servo/probe?

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