# 3D Printing > 3D Printers (Hardware) >  Tiko3D $179 3D Printer

## Brian_Krassenstein

An Ontario-based startup called Tiko3D has just unveiled a new 3D printer at SXSW in Austin this week.  The printer uses a delta-style framework and will be priced at just $179.  Tiko3D states that a Kickstarter crowdfunding campaign will be launched within a week or so, and early bird backers will be able to pre-order the 3d printer for a price even less than it's $179 price tag.  So how is it so cheap?  Tiko3D relies on a simplistic approach, no fan for cooling the extruder off and no USB ports.  Instead of a fan they use tubing to remove the heat from around the extruder. More details on the company, the printer, and the pricing can be found here:
http://3dprint.com/52099/tiko3d-unve...lta-3d-printer

Below is a picture of the Tiko3D Printer and a test print.  Will you be backing this project on Kickstarter?

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## MiniMadRyan

I'm really struggling to understand how these start ups can find ways (or think they can) to retail these units so cheaply. Seems to me that the addition of wireless printing would nullify any savings they made from cutting lower margin items like fans or a usb port....

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## curious aardvark

cloud based via wifi. 
How is that cheaper than usb ? 

And if you're internet goes down do your prints stop ? 

I mean it's potentially cheap. But also potentially useless if you want to use it somewhere without wifi. 

And wif is cheap because it's most likely built into the processor system they're using. 
But an extra buck for a usb port - that does seem odd.

be interesting to see if it ever gets off the ground. But a neat idea. Also curious why they've hidden the 'cooling pipes' behind that shield.

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## PawArmy

[QUOTE=curious aardvark;52113]cloud based via wifi. 
How is that cheaper than usb ? 

ESP8266 wifi modules are really cheap.

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## brbubba

Less than $200 for a 3D printer on Kickstarter.... a fool and his money are soon parted... Even though the thing looks pretty small it's just too much of a risk based on past startups.

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## DavidS

As USB only requires that your circuit board have a card edge for the connector, and any MCU that runs fast enough can Bit Bang USB (like a $7 Parallax P8X32A Propeller) and still have enough left over for processing the G-Code and controlling the steppers and heater I do not see how it is cheaper to use WiFi.   With a P8X32A you could use 2 cores for USB, 1 core for processing the G-Code, 1 core for the three steppers, 1 core for reading the sensors, and still have 3 unused cores for other stuff.

So I do not see it.   I would rather have standard RS-232, for an interface, though at least USB is hardwired, and more reliable.

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## mattgajkowski

Hey guys, Matt here from Tiko!

It's exciting to see all the debates over WiFi, it reminds me of the pros-cons lists we made when choosing between USB and WiFi. I don't want to reveal all the details before the campaign, but there are a couple of things you should know going in.

First off, Tiko is absolutely not a "cheap" 3D printer. Yes, it's unbelievably inexpensive, but that's only because we developed a number of world-first technologies that dramatically dropped our production costs, while maintaining/improving the functionality and quality of the printer.

We'll be doing an AMA on Reddit during the campaign, where we'll be happy to geek out on all the details, but the tl;dr version is that USB wasn't as cheap as you'd think, and WiFi chips have gotten much less expensive than you'd think. Switching to WiFi didn't have a large impact on our production cost, but it opened up a ton of cool possibilities, so we ran with it.

I feel your uneasiness - many a 3D printer have incorporated WiFi and done a bad job. That's because it always ends up being an "add-on" and doesn't receive as much attention as the rest of the printer. So, we decided early on that we would either do USB or WiFi, but not both, and fully commit to perfecting whichever we chose. We chose WiFi, and we think you'll love us for it once you try it.  :Smile:  

In any case, the campaign is coming sooner than you think, till then, stay curious!

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## soofle616

I don't think the debate is really that much about usb versus wifi's cost, but more about how you're producing a machine at that price point. The discussion about usb versus wifi was a tangent to that larger question.

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## curious aardvark

Well that and the fact that wifi can drop out at any point and usb cables tend not to.
That would be my biggest concern. I tend to reboot my router at least a couple times a day, I'm at the end of a long line and the internet can drop or die until you refresh.
So any long prints I'd started over wifi would be interrupted fairly regularly. 
I just don't see it as being a great choice for an either or situation. And for a couple extra bucks - why not have both ? 
Or failing that an sd card reader - now they really are cheap. 
Just some kind of option other than wireless, that is genuinely uninterruptable.

Hell stick it as an optional extra for $20, I bet most people would opt in rather than out.

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## mattgajkowski

Ah yes, it always comes back to the price! We'll be covering that in detail in the campaign, so hang tight.

Regarding the WiFi, not to give away too much, but Tiko doesn't require a connection during printing. More on that soon, as well!

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## brbubba

> Ah yes, it always comes back to the price! We'll be covering that in detail in the campaign, so hang tight.
> 
> Regarding the WiFi, not to give away too much, but Tiko doesn't require a connection during printing. More on that soon, as well!


I genuinely wish you luck Matt!!! I've seen the demands and comments from many kickstarter backers and many of them are irrational and absurd. I'd certainly hate to be on the receiving end of that.

As for the price, you can always throw in extra freebies if you have money left over but you can never eek more money out of your customer after the pledge is over and done with.

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## MiniMadRyan

I don't know what is behind that fancy white shell, but all I can think is that either they've stumbled onto some super cheap technology that no-one knows about, or their cost estimates and margins are way out of reality.

Wifi/USB aside, quality stepper motors can only be had so cheap, same for other components, belts, extruders etc. We're not even including costs outside of the printer such as packaging, printed documentation (if any) accessories, support, heck, are these cases injection moulded? What's the manufacturing costs associated with it? Even after sales support, RTAT?! I mean, unless they've planned on ordering insane quantities of parts that they could get them cheap enough, I don't see how they could sell this unit at $179 and still break even, let alone turn a profit. We've seen what's happened to other companies who've tried to break the sub $200 mark, Makible, ez3d, hell, even Pirate3D, and it didn't quite work out well for them...

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## DavidS

> ...We'll be doing an AMA on Reddit during the campaign, where we'll be happy to geek out on all the details, but the tl;dr version is that USB wasn't as cheap as you'd think, and WiFi chips have gotten much less expensive than you'd think.


That is simply not true.   If you are getting 802.11x chips for under a penny each, it is still more expensive than USB.USB just requires having a portion of your PCB used for a card edge connector, and using some of the processing of your MCU to bit bang USB.   Thus it costs the board area for the card edge connection, nothing more.   If you chose a reasonable multi core MCU you can get the USB bit bang software with a MIT license (thus no restrictions).The MCU to use would be a Parallax Propeller P8X32A, as it is an 8 core MCU that does have a good MIT licensed USB stack that uses bit banging already available (the USB does take 2 cores, that still leaves you 6 to work with), and it is the easiest to work with for programming the control firmware, it is 32 bit, and it is nearly as low cost as a much more limited AVR 8-Bit MCU.So do not try to sell that WiFi was a low cost solution, or that USB costs more than we would think.  I have worked with USB on the P8X32A, so I know better.

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## DavidS

Though I do genuinely hope that the project is a success, as it will provide a low cost 3D-Printer for future people.   And it will not require writing all of your own firmware and interface software, and design all the hardware to keep a 3D printer under $150.    These are the reasons I designed my own, wrote all of the Firmware/Software (some of it three times, anticipating future changes in the controller used (I will be switching to a Parralax Propeller P8X32A eventually for the controller.

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## curious aardvark

so onboard cache for the print file. 
That works :-) And gcode files are pretty small.

It's certainly one worth watching :-)

There's some interesting software for opensource deltas that I'd be tempted to get one of these to play with.

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## Brian_Krassenstein

March 30th is the day.  They will be launching on Kickstarter.  I am looking forward to see how this goes.  Will you be backing this project?  Why or why not?

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## curious aardvark

Not - after makibox, I don't do crowd funding any more.

Once it's up and running, shipping in decent amounts, and proven to work. I'll start saving my pennies up for one :-)

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## MiniMadRyan

> Not - after makibox, I don't do crowd funding any more.
> 
> Once it's up and running, shipping in decent amounts, and proven to work. I'll start saving my pennies up for one :-)


Agreed! I really want to, but look at the Makibox and how it failed. Admidtidly, the Makibox looked like it cut corners to get down to that cost and that still wasn't enough. I just can't see how they will make this a profitable device

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## john3322

I read the reviews of the product and i found that these Tiko3d Printer are really good. Tiko3d at cheap price.

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## MiniMadRyan

Well they are on Kickstarter now: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ody-3d-printer

Honestly, it looks very well put together, though I'm still not entirely sold on it. With no heated bed, I wonder how it will print ABS. I'm not a fan of the wording they've used for the technical info, frankly, there's little information on how or what they are using to make it work, and seeing those words 'patent-pending' alone makes me cringe. But overall, I wish them luck. It will be interesting to watch.

Edit.....reading through it a bit more, and frankly, some of their wording is a bit far fetched....they claim their hot end is the only one that can extrude PLA without active cooling, and that a cooling fan on a hot end is both expensive and reduces print volume...

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## brbubba

> Well they are on Kickstarter now: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ody-3d-printer
> 
> Honestly, it looks very well put together, though I'm still not entirely sold on it. With no heated bed, I wonder how it will print ABS. I'm not a fan of the wording they've used for the technical info, frankly, there's little information on how or what they are using to make it work, and seeing those words 'patent-pending' alone makes me cringe. But overall, I wish them luck. It will be interesting to watch.
> 
> Edit.....reading through it a bit more, and frankly, some of their wording is a bit far fetched....they claim their hot end is the only one that can extrude PLA without active cooling, and that a cooling fan on a hot end is both expensive and reduces print volume...


That one made me do an eyebrow raise too. New technology equals project delays and budget problems if not already perfected. We saw it in the EZ3D, where they were relying on manufacturing tech to save them but never perfected it and it bankrupted the company. Makibot also wasted valuable resources on new tech (a pellet extruder) which blew through their budget and ship dates eventually bankrupting the company.

 I'll happily eat crow if they can ship this thing on time or at all, but the margins are just too thin.

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## curious aardvark

makibox bought the wrong hot end and the almost 100% failure of that as well as costs for putting the hot ends together themselves are what broke the camel's back. 

They had no 'shit happens' budget and blew through the shipping money and were then unable to ship the machines they'd already sold. And it all got worse from there. 

basically bad business. 

The tiko people sound abit more savvy. But common sense would tell you that if you can sell  a delta 3d printer for $179 - then you could sure as shoot sell it for $250. 
And actually have an 'oh bugger' budget for when things go wrong or get delayed.

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## JRDM

The link to this thread from this story is broken for me: 

http://3dprint.com/54740/tiko-unibody-3d-printer/

The link is supposed to be:
http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.php?11486-Tiko3D-179-3D-Printer

The link is actually:
http://3dprint.com/54740/tiko-unibody-3d-printer/3dprintboard.com/showthread.php?11486-Tiko3D-179-3D-Printer

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## JRDM

There are some interesting things going on here, but there's way too little to go on. People don't seem to be asking the hard questions before committing the money.

The promo video is mostly fluff with only a few seconds of actual machine moving, and the rest of the campaign story looks like a Buzzfeed animated gif-fest, using footage from the original video at that.

And the extremely sparse web site claims it's been featured at SXSW 2015 (whatever that means), but I haven't even found any photos or video placing it there.

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## DavidS

I do not trust any product that attempts to sale a product that they have not tested well, and/or that is not in production before they attempt to sale it.

I pers personally only would be more likely to purchase something that is advertised to have low production volumes (like 10 per week, or such), that has been tested, and reviewed by third parties.   If they need KickStarter to get going on production, good, though if they are prom promising issing products to supporters, BAD NEWS.

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## Bassna

Well I just checked out the kickstarter page. They seem to be doing fantastic, even with people that are anti-crowd funding :P 

I probably would have went for one of the $99 early bird's if they were not sold out already. Hope all goes well!

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## digitap

I backed the project at the "earliest bird" price of $99.  This will be my first 3D printer and compared to many other Kickstarter projects, I figured this one is the cheapest and therefore I'm not out $500 if they can't deliver.  I agree that to date, they've basically been 95% marketing and 5% substance.  Per the creators, all current printers have been made from 3D printed parts, so they have yet to actually produce and test something coming off the line.  

While they've been good about responding to comments so far, they've avoided giving technical details and video examples of actual usage in various scenarios.  That and the manufacturing questions are what worries me.  Additionally, they've stated there will be no warranty with the printer, that they use cheaper consumer grade components to bring the price down, and the unit isn't designed to be user servicable.  Again, no details on how they actually plan to support the printers post-sale.

So this is truly a startup more than a business venture and it wouldn't surprise me if their end goal is to sell or license the rights to produce the printer to someone else in order to cash out.  

The timeline say shipping around November/December of 2015, and they've stated they're confident they can hit the date (but what Kickstarter creator doesn't say that).  We'll have to wait and see how it pans out, but I think the best thing they could do prior to the campaign ending is to actually put up some true technical details and demos of the printer.  Not just promises or fluff, but actual videos of it making things, hi res pictures of the output, etc.  Additionally, stating their business intentions and what they're doing to support those goals would be helpful to ensure this isn't just a one-hit-wonder to put on their resumes and move on leaving the backers stranded.

On the up side, they are pretty good about not giving in to stretch goals and add-ons.  For some reason all these backers want more and more for nothing, and that seems to lead to the demise of many Kickstarters after they've been funded.  Hopefully they'll stay on track with the original goals and timelines then actually deliver.

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## MiniMadRyan

Maybe this is a dumb question, but without any inputs on the printer itself, how does one actually connect this printer to a home wireless network? 

I'm very curious to see some more actual prints, as I wonder if they are able to achieve accurate prints with what they claim is inaccurate parts

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## 3dkarma

> Maybe this is a dumb question, but without any inputs on the printer itself, how does one actually connect this printer to a home wireless network?


Most likely, you don't.  It will probably work as an access point, requiring you to connect to it in order to send prints to it.  This is what the doodle3d did, and it was superbly crappy.

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## MiniMadRyan

> Most likely, you don't.  It will probably work as an access point, requiring you to connect to it in order to send prints to it.  This is what the doodle3d did, and it was superbly crappy.


Interesting. I had assumed that it would connect to a wider network somehow, as their marketing spoke about collecting your printers info to help builder better software and updates.

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## RNeil

> So how is it so cheap?


It is easy to make cheap and cool looking vaporware.

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## nils

We've collected a bunch of FAQs & an Interview with their CEO on all3dp.com

http://all3dp.com/topic/tiko-3d-printer/

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## curious aardvark

well until it's in proper production and available to actually buy - who knows anything :-)  

Some good info there though for the crowd fund gamblers.

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## Brian_Krassenstein

Tiko3D has provided its tenth update to its Kickstarter page, and this one is all about tests for its Unibody 3D printer. There's the 6 foot drop test (yes, the machine survived in tact), the strong but flexible arm test, and the thermal test included in the summary. The team reports great results back from these tests, which are ongoing, and they still hope to meet the November goal of shipping to all of those Kickstarter backers. But they also want to ensure the highest quality machine, while keeping it low cost too. More to come soon from Tiko3D!
http://3dprint.com/94302/tiko3d-stress-tests/

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## MiniMadRyan

Am I the only one who thinks that drop testlooksa like a rendered animation?....

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## Bakamoichigei

> Am I the only one who thinks that drop testlooksa like a rendered animation?....


Oh I'm sure you're not the only one, but as someone with a fair bit of animation experience, I doubt it.  I think it's just a perceptual bias _(specifically the expectation that it's fake)_ combined with the fact that they did it against a pristine photo backdrop, likely for the aesthetic effect.  If you look real close, there's so much going on there-- dynamics-wise --that if they wanted to fake it, it'd most likely be _cheaper_ to build a fake _physical_ mockup that'd withstand the test than to do a rendering.

Heh, I don't know why everyone is still so skeptical about the reality of the printer.  I mean, by now it's pretty evident that it's actually being produced, the real question people should be asking is 'how good a printer will it be?' and I can't wait to find out. _(Backer #656)_

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## curious aardvark

the reason it looks like an animation, is because they've slowed the video down and rendered it as a gif. 

And now the hidden bit makes sense. It's all one piece. That's clever.

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## MiniMadRyan

Touche....I really honestly wish them the best and I have no doubt that they can make a real product, I just have my doubts that they can make a quality product at that price point without going broke or skimping on things like after sales support and returns etc. Buccaneer and Makibox shown that its hard too make money at these kinda price points...

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## Bakamoichigei

As best as I can figure, a lot of it has to do with design and production considerations they made.  Such as the choice of using inexpensive geared steppers with custom gears... _​(As detailed in one of the updates)_ They're quick and accurate, but I guess maybe it required them to make the end effector as light as possible? To that end, they've got a titanium nozzle which is light and dissipates heat so well that it doesn't really need much in the way of a heatsink or a heat break or anything-- there isn't even a fan on the hotend, it's passively cooled! --further reducing weight, as well as component count and assembly costs. Then there's the fact that the linear rails are molded into the unibody frame, which also saves costs in basically every aspect of production. _(Parts, tooling, assembly...)_ It seems they put a lot of thought into how to get the costs as low as possible so they could offer it at that price. But yeah, only time will really tell.

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## MiniMadRyan

I'm truly interested to see how they do with this printer though. A lot of what you mentioned are good points, and innovative from other printers, but in some cases I wonder if the cost to R&D that new hot end, let alone the bespoke manufacturing of it is cost saving over other hot ends on the market. I don't know...it will be interesting to watch...

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## LambdaFF

> As best as I can figure, a lot of it has to do with design and production considerations they made. Such as the choice of using inexpensive geared steppers with custom gears... _​(As detailed in one of the updates)_ They're quick and accurate, but I guess maybe it required them to make the end effector as light as possible? To that end, they've got a titanium nozzle which is light and dissipates heat so well that it doesn't really need much in the way of a heatsink or a heat break or anything-- there isn't even a fan on the hotend, it's passively cooled! --further reducing weight, as well as component count and assembly costs. Then there's the fact that the linear rails are molded into the unibody frame, which also saves costs in basically every aspect of production. _(Parts, tooling, assembly...)_ It seems they put a lot of thought into how to get the costs as low as possible so they could offer it at that price. But yeah, only time will really tell.


I would agree that most of it seems well thought and I really look forward to seeing how this develops.

However there are some items on which I really have doubts, namely :
- passive cooling in a close enclosure ? I hope there won't be heat creep issues during long prints.
- machined titanium : tricky limitations and not cheap.
- custom gears : not cheap.
- rails molded into the frame. Nice trick, but if it turns out you need modifications, this kind of stuff can really be a pain.

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## On_Targetz

Well, fast forward a year on...

...Tiko printers have shipped!

...oh, wait ...only 200x units thus far (out of 16,500 or so).

The most recent Kickstarter Update by Tiko3D to their backers informed them that shipping was due to commence at the beginning of July 2016. To be fair to Tiko3D its true they 'did' actually ship some printers (albeit only 100x to backers in China to expedite delivery) - but that was it... 

...no more printers have been sent out as the initial 100x and subsequent 100x sent to Chinese backers have highlighted some significant manufacturing and developmental issues which have necessitated tweaking of components and firmware.

Tiko3D have commented (Note: not formally updated the backers) to the effect that it could be a further 3-months of R&D to resolve issues that have come to light and identified by the initial 200x backers that have been using their printers.

In the meantime there are circa 16,300 backers that are nervously awaiting a formal Update from Tiko as the most recent communication they have received directly was informing them that all problems had been resolved and that shipping was due to start in July.

Tiko3D have come a long way, but the ultimate test is for them to deliver what they promised and set out to do. 

The optimists will point to the fact that the team have managed to set up a supply chain of component manufacturers and suppliers, acquire a premises for assembling the printers and employ a sizeable staff (30+ according to comments from Tiko3D)... 

The pessimists will allude to the fact that delivery is heading towards being a year later than Tiko3D originally stated in the Kickstarter campaign, and the fact that accordingly the finances must be stretched almost to breaking as there was never a bottomless pit of money to fund salary and wages for 12-months overrun and cost of implementing the remedial changes.

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## MiniMadRyan

> Well, fast forward a year on...
> 
> ...Tiko printers have shipped!
> 
> ...oh, wait ...only 200x units thus far (out of 16,500 or so).
> 
> The most recent Kickstarter Update by Tiko3D to their backers informed them that shipping was due to commence at the beginning of July 2016. To be fair to Tiko3D its true they 'did' actually ship some printers (albeit only 100x to backers in China to expedite delivery) - but that was it... 
> 
> ...no more printers have been sent out as the initial 100x and subsequent 100x sent to Chinese backers have highlighted some significant manufacturing and developmental issues which have necessitated tweaking of components and firmware.
> ...



I've seen them in person twice now, and honestly they look pretty nice, albeit slow. I just wonder now if there is as much advantage to these units than there was a year ago....I mean, Monoprice has the MakerSelect Mini for $200, which is a fairly decent printer for basically the same cost, without having to wait to an unknown time for delivery, or other issues.

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## curious aardvark

yeah, 2 years ago when it was a $99 printyer it looked pretty good. 

Now at $179, not so much. As stated there are several small volume printers around for similiar prices. 

It's still a decent bit of kit - but at the current price point - with p&p and tax I'd be looking at £200 +
for which I can probably get a full size delta kit for.

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