# 3D Printing > General 3D Printing Discussion >  HP 3D Printing Announcement

## Eddie

Well, today is the day.  Hewlett Packard is expected to make their big 3D Printing related announcement today, and many are in attendance in NY for the event.  3DPrint.com will be live blogging the event as announcements are made.  Stay tuned to:

http://3dprint.com/21607/hewlett-pac...-announcement/ - won't be live until around 9:00 AM ET

What do you think they will announce?  What do you hope they will announce?

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## Feign

<cynic>They will probably announce that development is ongoing, and that it's _very exciting_.  And give a date for when they will give a date for their next announcement.</cynic>
I hope they actually announce_ a product_, though I probably won't buy it.
I hope in vain that they announce a consumer-level 3D printer that competes on price with existing consumer-level 3D printers...  Though even then I probably won't buy it.

Sorry I'm such a hater there, my dislike of the major 2D-printer companies really shows sometimes.

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## Marm

> <cynic>They will probably announce that development is ongoing, and that it's _very exciting_.  And give a date for when they will give a date for their next announcement.</cynic>
> I hope they actually announce_ a product_, though I probably won't buy it.
> I hope in vain that they announce a consumer-level 3D printer that competes on price with existing consumer-level 3D printers...  Though even then I probably won't buy it.
> 
> Sorry I'm such a hater there, my dislike of the major 2D-printer companies really shows sometimes.


XYZ took their business model and ran with it.  The "sell the machine cheap, but overcharge for replacement ink/filament" scam?  

I fear the fututre where the DIY/Open source/moddable printers will get pushed to the side by the mega corp's continuing with this model.

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## soofle616

> XYZ took their business model and ran with it.  The "sell the machine cheap, but overcharge for replacement ink/filament" scam?  
> 
> I fear the fututre where the DIY/Open source/moddable printers will get pushed to the side by the mega corp's continuing with this model.


I don't see diy/open/etc. printers being pushed out by this sort of model. While it's certainly feasable that large corporations jumping on the 3d printing bandwagon could produce dirt cheap printers with crazy expensive filament, unless there are no other sources for filament the DIY community can still make their own printers either with the designs available at the time or based on their own designs. Arduino and such is not going away (or will be replaced by something if it does), nor are the components like steppers, LCD's, guide rails/bearings and so on. The big corps getting into the game will change things for the average monkey consumer but for people that are already involved in this stuff or have the mental capacity to figure it out on their own, the materials and knowledge are already out there.

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## Feign

I can see there still being a market for "cheap printer, expensive material", I don't see it putting the current business model out of the market.

Mostly the "Cheap printer trap" will probably corner the market on poorly researched gift purchases.  But the business philosophy that comes up with the cheap printer trap also cuts every possible corner to keep the price down even further.  In this era of instant and honest product reviews, that just _will not sell_ with a large segment of the market.

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## MagicStar

No mention of what HP mean by strength. I would likecomposite strength and no mention of multiple parts in one print to make moving partslike SLS.

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## JRDM

> No mention of what HP mean by strength. I would likecomposite strength and no mention of multiple parts in one print to make moving partslike SLS.


It seems they're doing support material in such a way you could do assemblies in place.

This announcement seems like a let-down though. Not that I expect to like HP, but they already had one year, and all they have to show for it is renderings and production starting two years from now.

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## Feign

Looks like the printer is either powder-and-binder or PolyJet.  Since Stratasys is involved, I'd bet the latter.  Proprietary cartridges for the material, but that's expected from _both_ Stratasys and from HP.

The Sprout seems to be an all-in-one with a Wacom-style tablet and a projector and I guess multiple cameras (though I only see the one above the monitor).  I don't see how they get enough camera angles to "You put an object on the bed, it is scanned", most likely just a pre-rendered model that they popped up under the object.  On the final product (if there ever is one) you'd likely have to rotate the object a few times to get a good scan.

Still, a projector shining on a highly accurate touchpad is kind of cute.  Using some whimsical piece of HP's proprietary software is a huge turnoff from any kind of benefit this could have though. (In my own humble opinion, of course.  After all, I only owned an HP laptop _once._ _Theoretically_, there could be people _somewhere_ who actually _like_ all that pre-loaded software that you can't reliably stop from loading on start-up and breaks unrelated drivers when it's uninstalled.)

Still, kinda cool in theory, though by the time it makes its way out of renders, it will have to compete with Project Tango...

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## bford903

They're saying the Sprout will cost $1,899. 

Have they shown any prints from this multi-jet fusion printer?

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## JSenior

> They're saying the Sprout will cost $1,899. 
> 
> Have they shown any prints from this multi-jet fusion printer?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUkvC59vidw

Potentially very impressive, though it's not a flawless print

(There's a lot of videos on that channel)

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## curious aardvark

so they print a large plastic link - Well whoop de do I can do that :-) 

The virtual/augmented reality model copier is quite neat though. 

And a multijet powder and resin machine that cheap will make a real dent in the rapid prototype for small businesses. Assuming a decent build volume.

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## Geoff

Whatever it is, I won't be able to afford it :/

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## jimc

whatever it ends up being, one thing is for sure and that is the materials and a cartridges or whatever it takes is going to cost an arm and a leg. btw that car in the video might be 3000lbs not 10k lbs. i want to see the 10k lb test like they claim.

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## JRDM

I agree on STLs - unless you want a single color. Even multiple STLs to define an object by color is clumsy.

I hope they support AMF. I'd think that should be enough. There are other formats, 3D Systems seems to offer .obj + texture map. I hope they don't offer yet another file format.

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## Drone

I see HP entering the 3D printing market as a huge win. They might be too expensive for some here and they might be too expensive for consumables for some here, we don't know yet but I agree it is a very real possibility. They might also be lacking in quality. But the exposure to the masses by a huge corporation entering this market will certainly have positive effects for 3D printing in general. And if they manage to be profitable in this market it will only guarantee other large players enter the market. I just don't see a downside. While I may not see their offerings as the printer I choose in the future, anything that brings awareness to the masses about 3D printing will surely help 3D printing become mainstream tech instead of the geek oddity it is now.

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## Solstie

I think this is a big win.  The more players the better.  Even if the initial printers are too expensive it will force innovation from competitors.  More new technologies should speed up the technology trickle-down to consumer level products.

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## My Thing in 3D

I missed the pricetag, did they give an estimated cost anywhere?

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## curious aardvark

I think they'll be aiming at the lower end of the price range. And it should also be full colour as well. 

Not sure if the polyjet stuff needs postprocessing or not. I know some powder based systems do. That would put home users off.

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## Feign

Polyjet generally uses a lemonine-soluble or water-soluble support material (and a lot of it, Polyjet cannot bridge or overhang _at all_ as an intrinsic limitation of the technology).  Aside from soaking the part to dissolve the support material, there's no post-processing.  Also, the parts tend to have a deathgrip on the print bed, so you likely want to just soak the tray with the parts, maybe even putting a layer of soluble support at the bottom of the part to keep the bed fresh.  Old Stratasys machines had print beds that were pretty much single-use (they were not however, priced like a disposable part).

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## Hugues

> I think they'll be aiming at the lower end of the price range. And it should also be full colour as well. 
> 
> Not sure if the polyjet stuff needs postprocessing or not. I know some powder based systems do. That would put home users off.


i just read, but can't find the link, that it will be priced at around 100'000 usd, ouch. Is this the lower end of the price range for you ? LOL.
Anyway, good to see some new technology hitting the market. But damn, i did not realise how huge is this printer, i thought it was table top.

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## Feign

Wait, did you mean $10,000 or $100.00?  If the former, then they're in the low end for Stratasys machines, but they're much too expensive than any normal people would pay.  If the latter, then they're either making these things out of paper and prayers, or they're planning to charge $10 per gram of material to make up the cost.

One hundred US Dollars is close to the average weekly grocery bill to a middle class American, to put it in perspective.

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## Hugues

> Wait, did you mean $10,000 or $100.00?  If the former, then they're in the low end for Stratasys machines, but they're much too expensive than any normal people would pay.  If the latter, then they're either making these things out of paper and prayers, or they're planning to charge $10 per gram of material to make up the cost.
> 
> One hundred US Dollars is close to the average weekly grocery bill to a middle class American, to put it in perspective.


sorry, i wanted to write 100'000 usd, 
here is a link mentioning it could be that expensive:
https://gigaom.com/2014/10/29/hp-say...rives-in-2016/

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## Mike

They're referring to it as "industrial," which frequently means over half a million dollars.  "Professional" is commonly used for printers in the $100,000 price range.  Then again, it's hard to tell, because there is an awful lot of misleading innuendo being thrown around.  I've never seen marketing material with so many footnote disclaimers.

The machine seems to be a ZCorp with more nozzles and jets that apparently prints with powders other than sandstone.  They compare its speed with FDM or SLS, calling it "comparable technology," which is simply not true.  Objet or ZCorp (now 3DS x60) would be a more accurate comparison.  They also mention future metallic materials, but I suspect that would have to be a different machine, because they tout this one using less energy because it doesn't require the same heat as SLS or SLM.  Without the heat, you won't bond metal to metal.  It could also be that "metallic materials" simply means metal flakes/particles inside a clear plastic, like Ultimaker's brass filament.  Apply some temperature to it, the plastic melts and the metal falls apart, because it was never bonded in the first place.

Still, if it is essentially only a bulked-up ZCorp that can use a wider variety of material, it would be terrific.

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## Feign

> sorry, i wanted to write 100'000 usd, 
> here is a link mentioning it could be that expensive:
> https://gigaom.com/2014/10/29/hp-say...rives-in-2016/


Wow, okay. No that's not affordable at all.

Just to clear that up, US dollars haven't inflated_ that much_.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## curious aardvark

> They're saying the Sprout will cost $1,899.


which for a full colour poly jet machine is cheap. 
The build volume does look pretty small.

Now equate that to a £50 hp 2d printer with hp ink that costs £20,000 per litre - after a couple decades or heavy competition. 
And the materials could end up amazingly expensive.

I think the machine will be sold on the 3d photocopier idea rather than a small industrial printer. 

There is already a company on a crowd funded site that's producing a 3d printer with built in desktop copier. But, lets face it hp have got more money and better paid engineers. So the hardware should be pretty good and sensibly priced. 
It's the consumables they'll get you with.

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## Feign

> They're saying the Sprout will cost $1,899.
> 
> 
> which for a full colour poly jet machine is cheap. 
> The build volume does look pretty small.


The Sprout isn't the printer, it's the computer with the scanner and other fancy gubbins.

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## Brian_Krassenstein

I have some hunches that this technology (jetting) will soon be used in Desktop machines.  Both HP and Stratasys (PolyJet) seem to be headed in this direction.  Don't be surprised to see desktop printers using this type of technology by 2017 or 2018.  Just a hunch.  The technology really isn't any more expensive to produce than that which is used in SLA printers like the Form1

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## Feign

It's not much more expensive to build, but it has been patented to hell and back, so Stratasys has a monopoly on it, therefore, they cost as much as new cars.  The build material for it isn't more expensive to produce, but the format lends itself to chipped cartridges, therefore the material costs more than inkjet ink (which is absolutely obscene already).

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## curious aardvark

and you're dealing with both a powder deposition head and an inkjet deposition head. Sla is simpler tech. 

So the printer isn't the sprout ? 
What's the printer called ?

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## Feign

Well, PolyJet isn't the same as powder and binder, it has a similar mechanic, but doesn't need any powder by curing the resin directly to itself before it can lose its droplet shape.

The printer is called the "HP MultiJet Fusion"...  not to be confused with the "HP Fusion IO" flash drive, from a completely different part of the company.  Yay originality.

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## brbubba

> I think they'll be aiming at the lower end of the price range. And it should also be full colour as well. 
> 
> Not sure if the polyjet stuff needs postprocessing or not. I know some powder based systems do. That would put home users off.


I thought this as well, maybe in the $2k to $5k range. However, if they are using an i7, complete and utter overkill, it makes me want to rethink that estimate and say more in the $10k to $15k range.

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## Joule Thief

> I thought this as well, maybe in the $2k to $5k range. However, if they are using an i7, complete and utter overkill, it makes me want to rethink that estimate and say more in the $10k to $15k range.


Unfortunately you're still off by an order of magnitude.  This is going to be a 6-figure printer ($100k+).  When HP says lower cost, they're comparing themselves to SLS/SLM printers that cost anywhere from $0.5-$1.5M.  So by that standard, yes they will come in substantially cheaper.  If you read their press release, HP is careful to say "lower total cost of ownership" or TCO, so they are also factoring in things like materials costs, post processing, system maintenance, and even powder recycling which they say will be much improved due to the lower energy exposure time.  It's about much more than just the initial system price.

HP also mentions that the printer will be sold to commercial businesses and specifically that consumers will access these printers through "service bureaus".  This is in no way going to be marketed or sold to the consumer segment, at least not initially.

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## voxel

> Unfortunately you're still off by an order of magnitude.  This is going to be a 6-figure printer ($100k+).  When HP says lower cost, they're comparing themselves to SLS/SLM printers that cost anywhere from $0.5-$1.5M.  So by that standard, yes they will come in substantially cheaper.  If you read their press release, HP is careful to say "lower total cost of ownership" or TCO, so they are also factoring in things like materials costs, post processing, system maintenance, and even powder recycling which they say will be much improved due to the lower energy exposure time.  It's about much more than just the initial system price.
> 
> HP also mentions that the printer will be sold to commercial businesses and specifically that consumers will access these printers through "service bureaus".  This is in no way going to be marketed or sold to the consumer segment, at least not initially.


My guess is that HP will take a big swing at industrial market and if it goes well then over time will drive the technology down into consumer applications.  the printer is just one piece of the puzzle.  there must be a fully developed and seamlessly integrated ecosystem (3D modeling software, 3D image scanning) before non tech savvy consumers can really take advantage of this technology.  take Apple iphone for example...it is very sophisticated technology but they made it really easy for the average person to exploit.  we are not there yet with 3D printing for consumers...but we are there for industrial applications which is why HP is focusing there first.

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## Feign

I'm going to go ahead and make the prediction that by the time HP tries to bring their printer price below ten grand, there will only be a very few FFF printers over a thousand dollars.
By the time they try to break into the middle class home market, the majority of people who have any need for it at all will already own a multi-head FFF printer and a home filament extruder.

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## brbubba

> I'm going to go ahead and make the prediction that by the time HP tries to bring their printer price below ten grand, there will only be a very few FFF printers over a thousand dollars.
> By the time they try to break into the middle class home market, the majority of people who have any need for it at all will already own a multi-head FFF printer and a home filament extruder.


I'll still hold out some hope. Meg Whitman isn't an idiot so I'm going to try and give her a little more credit out of the gate, but clearly all bets are off.

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## Brian_Krassenstein

HP, the largest 2D printing company in the world, made waves six months ago when they announced their impending entry into the 3D printing space. Worldwide Business Director, Hewlett-Packard 3D Printing, J Scott Schiller, was present at this past week's Inside 3D Printing Conference in NYC, and revealed the latest news on HP's entry plan for their Multi Jet Fusion 3D technology. Schiller announced, in addition to new details about the platform's capabilities, that the first Multi Jet Fusion 3D printer will be ready by the end of 2016. While that's still 18 months to wait, it provides HP with more time to forge new partnerships, such as their already established partnership with Autodesk to integrate the Spark Platform. Also on HP's docket are the launch of a new 3D printing consortium, as well as illustrations of just what it means for Multi Fusion technology to be so much faster than existing platforms, announcements of other materials technologies, and more. Read about them in the full story: http://3dprint.com/59206/hp-multi-jet-fusion-update/

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## curious aardvark

Hmm well in 18 months it's not going to be faster than other platforms. Some of the dlp resin technology is already faster. 

And this is an industry where somebody brings out something new every few days. 

Don't think hp have quite grasped how fast this technology is moving (they DON'T seem to be using rapid prototyping themselves). They seem to be still looking at it as a conventional piece of technology. 

ie: 3 years of development and then launch into a captive market. 

I don't care how shiny and integrated (don't really like that word when it comes to software) their software is - at the end of the day it's the hardware that counts and they're really dragging their feet on that. 
Big mistake.

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## Brian_Krassenstein

Last month Hewlett-Packard announced that they would be splitting their company into two separate companies. Now known as Hewlett-Packard Enterprise, the first would focus entirely on their server and data center technology while HP Inc. would focus on the printer and personal computer portion of the business. HP Inc CEO Dion Weisler has also separated the printer side of the business from the 3D Printer side and put senior VP of imaging and printing Steve Nigro in charge of a new 3D Printing business group.

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## eel

There several important parameters to be evaluated before we can conclude how competitive is the HP 3D printer:
1. How easy it is to clean the parts and handle the removed powder
2. How brittle are the parts. The HP strength demo with car lifting was not convincing. The real criteria is the brittleness of 1/2mm - 1mm walls and pins. This actually defines the fine parts printability. 
3. How vivid are the colours.
4. How rough is the surface of the parts.

Without knowing those parameters it is hard to conclude whether this printer is just another industrial 3D printer comparable with SSYS  or 3D System/Zcorp or a major breakthrough in 3D printing.

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## Brian_Krassenstein

Hewlett Packard, although coming out of the gate last year with great  excitement and enthusiasm regarding their entry into 3D printing, is  under a bit of a cloud currently with thousands more layoffs emerging as  the company splits in two formally as of November 1st. While  layoffs are meant to offset debt, they further plan to use 3D printing  as a new recipe for success and reinvention, as well as relying on  printing and personal systems sales and support as an ongoing income  supply. Read more at 3DPrint.com: http://3dprint.com/96040/hp-layoffs-focus-on-3d-print/

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## Hudson

Have any more stats for their planned printer come out yet?

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## Brian_Krassenstein

HP Inc’s Multi Jet Fusion (MJF) 3D printer's control over the  properties of the 3D printing process will be done at the voxel level  within 3D space, giving them more control over the material properties  of the final print. MJF 3D printers will be able to control the texture  of the part, the level of density or strength, friction, and even be  able to give parts electrical and thermal properties. The HP thermal  inkjet technology that powers the printing arrays can lay down material  from 600 dpi all the way up to 2,400 dpi, which is a range of 42 microns  down to to 11 microns. According to HP they plan to develop their MJF  technology for several additive manufacturing platforms, and intend on  releasing a single-color version of their 3D printer near the end of  2016. You can read more over on 3DPrint.com: http://3dprint.com/113630/hp-multi-j...on-plans-info/

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## oklok

HP´s printer..not sure if it will rock the market as we think it will, it is still an expenive machine.

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