# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > FlashForge Forum >  Just got my Flashforge Creator Dual and here are my first prints

## Dargonfly

I got my first printern, the Flashforge Creator Dual Extruder and I have been tinkering a bit with (got scared shitless every time it made a new noise!) and here are my first two prints:


Since these images are large I'll just put the album here instead of linking them all:
http://imgur.com/a/0k7UA

This was after I printed some 'pasta' because my bed was too far away from the nozzle. Also, I'm using a PVP based glue stick to make it stick to the plate; seems to work just fine.

These were both printed using Makerbot software (ReplicatorG kept saying my COM port was already in use...?) with the following settings (most were standard, I just adjusted the speed:
- Material: MakerBot PLA (blue)
- Rafts: Off
- Supports: Off
- Infill: 10%
- Number of Shells: 2 for cube, 3 for Marvin
- Layer Height: 0.10mm
- Extruder temp: 230 Celcius
- Build Plate temp: 110 Celcius
- Speed while Extruding: 40mm/s
- Speed while Traveling: 70mm/s

Both pieces took 30 minutes to print; (and I have been watching with amazement the whole time!) 
I'm quite happy with this, but there is still a lot of room for improvement:
- The first 1-2cm of print isn't there (no material), this gets 'fixed' by the next layer of material, but makes the bottom a bit more sloppy
- The first few layers (approx. 2mm total) don't have a nice shell
- The shell has something 'wavy' going on in the X and Y direction (though not that much)
- The topside of the cube has 'dents' where there is no infill; I watched the process and I think by having just a larger top surface this can be fixed (or more infill off course)

The Marvin did a bit worse:
- First layer of left foot didn't print (no material); same problem as mentioned above
- During printing I could see that the overhanging parts (front and more notably the back) would curl upwards(!) this would get pushed back by the nozzle every time, but this created the flat ass that Marvin has (not good!)
- The ears are drooping; same as the top eyelid (which makes it look like he is squinting)
- The parts where you attach it to the keychain also drooped a lot and is very low quality

Top surface of Marvin is rather nice. So biggest problem is overhanging parts that droop / curl.
If anybody has some advice; then I will try it.
For now I think I have to try putting a fan on the printed parts so that they cool down quicker (and not curl/droop).

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## repman

Try increasing the build speed to 90mm/s extrude  and 150mm/s travel

also heated bed is not required, and only causes more heat - heat is PLA's enemy

mounting a small fan to aid cooling the part as its printed will also help, PLA being of low density retains heat easily and needs help to get rid of it

these printers being makerbot copies are optimized for ABS, so you may get better results by using ABS, with these settings, but still increase the extrude and travel.

Keep it up

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## Dargonfly

Ok; second try:


Here's the album: http://imgur.com/a/U9DPU

I increased the layer height to 0.18mm; my idea here was that this would make the extruder extrude more material and thus have less issue with not having material the first 1-2cm of extrusion time.
And it worked! I got material right away!

I decreased the bed heat to 30 Celcius (pretty much disabling it; but the disable button didn't work in Makerbot(?)) as suggested by Repman - 
I also placed a large fan to the side of the machine aiming at the bed + extruder.

This resulted in more accurate first layers and less drooping (the eyes here are somewhat comparable to the Marvin ears.)

New problem; the bottom sticked too much to the surface; I damaged a bit of the yellow material (kapton?) in the process
Eventually I had to heat up the bed; and then I could remove it (though I did bent all the arms of the Octopus while heating + trying to remove it - even though the print came out really straight.)

Though once again; I'm pretty satisfied (And surprised) by the result - that's why I now started a 5 hour print that used dual extrusion of both ABS + PLA.
It's looking good so far.  :Smile: 


Also a question directed at Repman's comment regarding the travel speed for PLA extrusion:
I'm guessing you're advising me to increase the speed to allow less heat to get into the material.
What is better:
Faster travel speed + high temperature (being heated for low amount of time)
Lower travel speed + low temperature (being heated for a long amount of time)

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## repman

lol 
The height adjust will not affect the amount of material extruded, not getting material right away is a bed level problem, if i dont see material coming right away, i push the bed down with my hand slightly so i can see if this is the case, obviously if the bed is too close to the extruder outlet then it essentially blocks the material. TIP level the bed at the temperature you plan to use it at i.e level at 110c if using a heated bed, or level at room temp if running at room temp.

Try and set the bed temp off in the tick box, last as i have noticed it seems to default back to heated bed on if you adjust other setting last, and remember to save settings.

Print PLA on blue painters tape not kapton you will save your expensive kapton tape and removal is a bit easier from the cheap throw away tape.

fast speed low bed temp for PLA on blue tape

Some people heat bed to 60c (its the materials Tg that makes it stick) others use no heat, I do not , i dont think it matters in my experience.

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## Dargonfly

> lol 
> The height adjust will not affect the amount of material extruded, not getting material right away is a bed level problem, if i dont see material coming right away, i push the bed down with my hand slightly so i can see if this is the case, obviously if the bed is too close to the extruder outlet then it essentially blocks the material. TIP level the bed at the temperature you plan to use it at i.e level at 110c if using a heated bed, or level at room temp if running at room temp.
> 
> Try and set the bed temp off in the tick box, last as i have noticed it seems to default back to heated bed on if you adjust other setting last, and remember to save settings.
> 
> Print PLA on blue painters tape not kapton you will save your expensive kapton tape and removal is a bit easier from the cheap throw away tape.
> 
> fast speed low bed temp for PLA on blue tape
> 
> Some people heat bed to 60c (its the materials Tg that makes it stick) others use no heat, I do not , i dont think it matters in my experience.


But if the amount of material extruded (per second) stays the same then how can it print with a higher or lower layer thickness? Higher layer thickness should mean more material extruded per second right? (If I'm completely wrong please say so.)

I see now; when I turn of the heated bed I have to safe the settings and not change anything else because then it resets.
I will get some blue painters tape! Thanks for the tip.

Will fiddle around with temp and speed settings tomorrow! Thanks again for the advice!

For now I have another print to show:



infill 20%
walls 2
speeds 40 / 70
temps 230 / 230 / 30 (bed)
material ABS (white) / PLA (blue)


During printing the tail + some ABS came loose from the bed:

In the end all the other small ends (feet + head) of the blue dragon also lifted from the bed a bit. So it's not just the ABS that does this! (Also near the end probably means that there is less heat at the bottom, should I increase bed temp?)


The PLA extruder kept dripping createing this masterpiece at the edge. The ABS left some white spots; but not that much.

There is some strange 'wiggling' in the ABS in the first few millimeters, but this could be due to the lifting from the bed.
Here is the full album: http://imgur.com/a/VaRXK

Enough messing around for today; tomorrow I'll do some proper tests to get the right bed height, temps, speed, walls, infill, etc. for some parts I would like to make.

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## curious aardvark

your picture links don't work for me at all. 

Can you just attach them to the post ? 

the whole resolution thing is  a bit misleading. If you're printing something with a lot of bridging you want a lower resolution. Thicker strands of plastic weill hold and bridge a longer gap much better than a thin strand. 

Also the time versus 'quality' trade off can be a bit ridiculous. 

I print most things at 0.3 mm Go up to 0.2 if I want really smooth. 
I see on thingiverse that a lot of people seem to print at 0.25. Tried that, printer actually gives better detail at 0.3

So for models with overghangs and tricky angles you'll often get better prints with lower resolutions. 

Without seeing your pics can't add much else :-)

One thing - try building with raft turned on. 
I've never managed to print anything without using a raft. so you're ahead of me there. 

But, while large items will still warp, rafts help stop that. Plus while you're still learning the craft (not sure we ever stop) you can rattle off prints on rafts with no problems at all :-) 
You use a little more plastic, but 99% of my prints come out damn near perfect. 

Also don't be afriad to adjust extrusion temps. 
I've just started a new roll of - supposedly - silver abs. It's light grey. But 230 and 225 were too hot for it. Currently printing a food saver disc at 220 and looking much sharper and cleaner than the mini traffic cone I tested it with at 225. 

Also be careful calibrating at temperature - those metal knobs get bloody hot. Get some m3 nuts and print some plastic knobs.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:243998

Food saver disc is a flat disc with small spikes that you push into the ends of partly used cucumber, lemons etc to stop them drying out. 
Friend said she'd seen something like it. 
So I knocked this up in openscad. 
foodsaver disc_800x600.jpg

In the mk2 I've moved the outer spikes in for smaller diameter lemons, etc and made all the spikes the same height.

And yes that's supposed to be silver. 
What's the betting that the 'gold' abs is just yellow :-) 
Plus it's not great filament. 

Mind you the black i got from the same supplier is seriously good stuff.

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## curious aardvark

ah ha pics up - try the same print with same settings and a raft. 

Think you'll find it prints out perfectly. 

Love that dragon ! 

Hell man I haven't even got as far as tw colour prints yet - let alone two colour two material prints without a raft ! 

You're way ahead of me :-) 
I'm just having fun inventing things :-))

where'd you get the dragon and egg stl ?
And how long did that take to print  and what resolution did you use ?

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## Dargonfly

> ah ha pics up - try the same print with same settings and a raft. 
> 
> Think you'll find it prints out perfectly. 
> 
> Love that dragon ! 
> 
> Hell man I haven't even got as far as tw colour prints yet - let alone two colour two material prints without a raft ! 
> 
> You're way ahead of me :-) 
> ...


When you use a raft; what do you do with the temperature of the heat bed?

Aww.. you're making me blush  :Embarrassment: 
But it probably was beginners luck :-)

The 'dragon and egg' is actually a dragon with a heart (thought it was an egg too before printing it.) but it came as a dual extrusion example with Makerbot.
Looked it up for you and found it here:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:17204
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:29088
(if you search for 'pet monster valentine' you'll find some other comparable dragons)

The print took was estimated at 5 hours by Makerbot but only took 3.5 hours. (Which I find really acceptable since I cannot produce nice 3D models faster than this thing can print them!!)
(0.18mm layer height, 20% infill, 2 shells, speeds: 40 / 70)
Probably can go a lot faster as suggested by Repmap; will do some tests tomorrow to find out optimum quality / speed/ material / strength.

Thanks again for the kind words and good advice; will also do testing with rafts! And what you said about using larger layer height for overhanging parts makes a lot of sense!
Also that food saver idea is quite clever.

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## curious aardvark

wel one thing I can say - you'll get better results with the same material in different colours than different materials. 

Given that pla sticks to cold beds and abs to hot beds - don't mix the two. No matter what settings you use one or the other won't stick ! 

speed wise I tend to do most things at 70/100

As geoff says - anything much above 80 and the machine appears to be shaking itself apart on the infill.

Food saver disc stl attached - I think :-)
I printed it fine  at: 3 shells, 0.3, 5% infill, 70/100 speed. 
Takes about 21 minutes. 

I really should look at those examples again :-)
Found the dragon - think I'll do it one colour, hollow and .4 see how quick I can knock one out.
I need something to balance the hollow yoda  that's sitting on geraldine's left back corner.

I did read that stepper motors work in 0.04mm increments. So layer heights that are divisible by 4 work better than ones that aren't. 
Not sure if it's true for the ff steppers - but it sort of makes sense. 

I'll have to try .28 instead of .3

Actually another way to avoid parts warping is to print with NO infill. 0%. 
You get a hollow model, which means there is a lot less plastic to shrink and pull the edges up. Fo stronger models Use shells instead of infills. 
3 usually works great for hollow models.
I've seen people go up to 5 shells for watertight things.

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## curious aardvark

One thing you might not have registered yet (there is  a lot to take in).

Make some abs paint. Just mix acetone with abs off-cuts. This can be used to both paint different coloured abs on to models and to fill in gaps, smooth surfaces etc. As an artist you can probabyl find way more uses than I can. 

Also if you're making  a drinking vessel, a thickish  paint can be used to make it water tight . It's also useful for gluing parts together.

Just useful to have a jar or two around of the colours you use most. 

For a universal abs paint/glue/smoothing solution - make up some with transparent abs.

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## Geoff

> wel one thing I can say - you'll get better results with the same material in different colours than different materials. 
> 
> Given that pla sticks to cold beds and abs to hot beds - don't mix the two. No matter what settings you use one or the other won't stick !


Not necessarily, I have PLA that does require a heated bed, no less than 75c for some. I've never really  needed more than 2 shells either, even on hollow models.

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## underwoodle

> I got my first printern, the Flashforge Creator Dual Extruder and I have been tinkering a bit with (got scared shitless every time it made a new noise!)


Same here.  New since this past Friday.   :Smile:

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## Dargonfly

> Same here.  New since this past Friday.


Congratulations on the purchase! If you'd like you can share your results.
I'm still learning a lot, going to do some different Marvin tests with different settings to find the best quality next week.

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## 34Ford

Well after a week I finally got to play with the new printer and my first print.   This turned out better than I thought for no experience and default ReplicatorG settings.

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## Dargonfly

> Well after a week I finally got to play with the new printer and my first print.   This turned out better than I thought for no experience and default ReplicatorG settings.


That one looks a lot better then my first cube! How is the top surface? Does it have dents?
Also; how is the bottom surface without the raft?

I'm still trying to figure out if I should start using ReplicatorG or stick with Makerbot software.

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## 34Ford

> That one looks a lot better then my first cube! How is the top surface? Does it have dents?
> Also; how is the bottom surface without the raft?
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out if I should start using ReplicatorG or stick with Makerbot software.


It had very small droops in the top.  Here is a tripod knob I did just now.  Much stronger than the original.

Bottoms have the same texture that the 3M tape has.

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## curious aardvark

if for no other reason I prefer makerware - NOT the new desktop version (that really sucks) - it slices about 30 times faster than rep g. 
Also the whole interface is pretty good. Okay you've got no layer control. But so far I've been happy printing from a raft. 
It has the advantage of giving about 99% perfect prints. 
I do have a small variety of plastic blobs and a trunkless LS elephant. But, they are pretty rare. I normally just hit print from sd card, wait till it's got the raft going witjout any sticky-up bits, and then just leave her to her own devices. 

I'll keep trying to use slic3r/gcode/gpx combo. But probably have to upgrade firmware first - and that's proving a bit tricky :-)

I keep hoping that given the increasing number of FF and other brand makerbot clones, that someone, somewhere will adapt or produce some alternative software to run the machines. But in the meantime, just being able to hit: 'print' and confidently go do something else - has it's merits :-)

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## Dargonfly

Ok, update time:

Because I want to start on printing some some organically shaped models soon I'd thought the perfect test case would be a ball.
I modeled a ball (globe) of 20[mm] in diameter, but was unable to print it correctly:
I tried different amount of walls, speed, temperature, external fans, but nothing worked...

What kept happening was that the entire edge crawled inwards/upward the whole time.. so 1/3 in it would start printing outside of the ball because it had already crawled inwards too much.

Has anybody ever printed a successful ball and if so, can you tell me with what settings? This is really frustrating me - even though my final model doesn't have such a complex overhang, I would still like to be able to print this ball!

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## curious aardvark

what did you model it in ? 
sounds like the issue was with the model itself. 

here's a 40mm diameter flat based sphere I just knocked up in openscad. Should print without any issues. 3 shells and 0% fill will give you a nice hollow sphere :-)
40mm sphere.stl

You can easily resize it in makerware - just remember after resizing to hit the 'On Platform' from the Move options.
Amazing how many problems that prevents

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## Dargonfly

> what did you model it in ? 
> sounds like the issue was with the model itself. 
> 
> here's a 40mm diameter flat based sphere I just knocked up in openscad. Should print without any issues. 3 shells and 0% fill will give you a nice hollow sphere :-)
> 40mm sphere.stl
> 
> You can easily resize it in makerware - just remember after resizing to hit the 'On Platform' from the Move options.
> Amazing how many problems that prevents


I modeled it in SolidWorks, hasn't given any error as far as I know. The problem is that my edges keep curling up probably due too much heat, but I can't seam to reduce it any further.

Can you give me the exact settings (speed, temp, etc.) that you would use to print this in? (either PLA or ABS or both, currently I'm happy with getting my sphere printed in any material.)

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## curious aardvark

well I printed a couple last night in abs. Filament got stuck behind the reel on the first one, so that's just a small bowl :-) 
basic settings. 
.3 layer (wasn't after anything fancy) 60mm print speed, 100 movement, 230 print head, 110 printbed, bowl was 0% infill, whole sphere was 10%

I do have issues with the bottom layers of spheres, they turn out rough and look 'scarred'. The top 2/3rds are brilliant. 
I think because the bottom layers go on fast the filament is still pliable and semimelted, for the next layer and doesn't set before the next bit is laid down, so you get weirdness. 

I suspect a lower printbed temp and a fan would sort the issue. 
Don't get it with cones or cylinders just spheres. 

I'll stick a couple of pics up later. 

Solidworks files should be run through netfabb before use. That's one of the many things I like about openscad - it pretty much only produces viable 3d printable models.

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## Dargonfly

> well I printed a couple last night in abs. Filament got stuck behind the reel on the first one, so that's just a small bowl :-) 
> basic settings. 
> .3 layer (wasn't after anything fancy) 60mm print speed, 100 movement, 230 print head, 110 printbed, bowl was 0% infill, whole sphere was 10%
> 
> I do have issues with the bottom layers of spheres, they turn out rough and look 'scarred'. The top 2/3rds are brilliant. 
> I think because the bottom layers go on fast the filament is still pliable and semimelted, for the next layer and doesn't set before the next bit is laid down, so you get weirdness. 
> 
> I suspect a lower printbed temp and a fan would sort the issue. 
> Don't get it with cones or cylinders just spheres. 
> ...


Ok, I don't really see why the SolidWorks .STL files would not work - but I will try it with your model & settings as soon as I get home.

Thanks for the help!!  :Big Grin:

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## curious aardvark

well why solidworks produces modesl more solid than something like autocad. It still doesn't produce perfectly manifold models that are 100% suitable for 3d printing. 
Almost no conventional cad program does. 
A lot are bringing out add on modules that better prepare a model for 3d printing - but I would think that a straight solidworks model will pretty much always need some post processing to make it 100% suitable for 3d printing. 

Currently printing a glande test for use in a sling bullet mould. I'll see if I get the same issues with that that i get with spheres. 

(couple minutes later) yeah same issues. Good job I'm making a mould for clay :-)
Don't envision any issues with the void in a mould. 

Pretty sure it's a heat issue - the further away from the plate - the less problems I get.

sphere issues_800x425.jpg

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## Dargonfly

Ok, prints keep getting worse and worse, 
Layers looked like they were 'woven' instead of printed, much warping, parts coming lose 1/2 through the print, AND plastic sticking to the nozzle instead of the build plate/part..

so I'm going to reset everything as much as possible:
- Ordered some material for a good build surface which allows the part to stick
- In the meanwhile going to clean the extruder/nozzle as much as possible
- Going to to have to do some leveling again offcourse and then I'll print a fan duct for controlled cooling of the printed material
- As soon as the fan duct is on there I'll return to trying to print these spheres, which will hopefully go in one go then...

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## Dargonfly

UPDATE TIME:

So I basically had 3 problems:
- material wouldn't stick to the build plate;
- PLA would warp;
- I had(/have) no idea what the flip I'm doing.

Step one:
I got the BuildTak mats to cover my (bend) Aluminum heated bed. Started printing ABS. The amount of stick was amazing, So I did some test prints first:



With only 2 shells you can see some open areas at the top where there was no material to print onto, and there are some visible 'dots' on the bottom half; probably due to the relatively large overhang.

Then I printed Marvin again:


For some reason his 'eyebrow' got burned a bit.. and the overhang isn't perfect.. but I can clean that up if I want to, so the overall result is great! (Especially compared to it's older PLA brother that was my first print when I just got the printer.)
(can't add more images, so I'll continue in next post)

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## Dargonfly

So problem one was solved; I can now get materials to stick properly to the bed.
Now I want to print PLA without warping; so I printed this fan-duct:



Look at that smooth bottom!! Rest of the surface was perfect too!
After that I got some 'clicking' when changing filament,, but this was not hearable during extrusion (though I did think I saw some variation in thickness of the extrusion....)



On this part you see a lot of 'dots' and somewhat 'burned' particles... I think this has something to do with the clicking, so I stopped using this extruder, until I have cleaned it. If there could be any other cause for this than rubbish in the extruder please let me know!

And here you can see the fan duct in action; 


I didn't have enough fate in 'just' the air duct on the extruders, because the energy needs to 'move' away to some other place inside the room. So I also added two 230-240[mm] fans on both sides, both blowing to the left creating a air duct.
I've watched the temp of the heat bed during a print and it remained between 23-27 degrees Celcius during the entire print! (Without the fan it would rise to 40 degrees Celcius and gradually drop as the extruder got further away from the build plate.)
This variation in temp is probably also due to the 'flow' with probably affects the readout device a lot, because most of the times the temp was listed as 24 or 25 degrees (room temp was approx. 24.)

For those interested: I've attached all three additional fans to a fan controller which is fed by a random 12V 1.5A adapter I had lying around (did some soldering.)

Does it work? (more images to come...)

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## Dargonfly

Yes it works! The PLA comes out, bonds firmly with its previous layer and cools down immediately! No warping!



It's a 40[mm] sphere with a flat bottom (as provided by Curious Aardvark)
The fact that you can see 'ripple circles' on the sides means that this is the maximum X-Y precision that this machine can handle (for now?)


Top looks pretty good too!

But then there's this:


It was printing in clockwise direction; so after every layer change it shook a bit and created this ripple effect. Near the end I figured that this was probably because the part didn't adhere that well to the surface (because it was almost tipping over the ball itself.. but it kept on printing!! What a trooper!)
I will keep an eye out of it 'might' just be the machine shaking.. but for now I'm assuming that this is just not good enough adhesion. 

"BuildTak? What's up with that?", I thought..
So I read there website again and figured I might need to move the extruder head close to the surface.. but it doesn't extrude the first layer properly if I do this...

SO, for now this is my solution:
While building the first layer I push (by hand) the build plate upward in pulses.. (every one second I give it a little push) and it VISIBLY adheres the material at the point where I push it upwards (like point-welding!)

Still, not too happy with this.. might need to try using glue stick again..
Also not sure if this is because of the BuildTak, or the material, or the fact that the build plate is bend (at least 0.4[mm] differences between center and sides.)

I hope people can assist me with some of my issues, and I also hope that this is helpful for other people! As long as people find it at least interesting I'll keep updating with more 'test-prints'.

EDIT:
Also I found this pretty interesting;

The PLA sphere had no issues at all with the overhanging parts, while the ABS one is struggling in that area! Going to do some more testing and pretty soon I'll be able to make some quality figurines from PLA I think!

My overall progress so far:

All PLA (blue) parts in the front are a few weeks old, the one shown in the posts above are made last week.
Hehe, so happy I am understanding a bit more about 3D printing now!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## curious aardvark

wow !

I've never got a sphere anyway near as smooth as that. 

Oh and the seam is down to the way makerware slices circular objects. Instead of starting each layer at a different point, it always starts anf finishes at the saame point - and creates a seam. Annoying isn't it. 

But damn man - you've really applied yourself to this haven't you !

So what's the purpose of the extra ? fans on the printhead ? 

I can see the point of the case fans. 
Does that ducting somehow point air at the printbed ? 

So what is the box with knobs on for fixed to the top of the printer ?
And have you bought 2 now ? 


Those spheres are amazing ! 
It's got to be cooling the layers between each layer printing. 
Can you point me at the bracket and what you actually did ?

Never heard of buildtak mats - But so far everything sticks really well to blue tape. And I'm doing more prints without rafts.

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## Dargonfly

That's a lot of questions! Like your enthusiasm!  :Big Grin: 




> wow !
> 
> I've never got a sphere anyway near as smooth as that.


It's printed at 0.1[mm], so it better be smooth!  :Smile: 




> Oh and the seam is down to the way makerware slices circular objects. Instead of starting each layer at a different point, it always starts anf finishes at the saame point - and creates a seam. Annoying isn't it.


Even though it starts at a point and is not randomized; I still believe it shouldn't have that big of an impact, so I'll try lowering the Z-axis movement speed next to try and solve this.




> But damn man - you've really applied yourself to this haven't you !


I'll take that as a compliment, thanks!  :Big Grin: 




> So what's the purpose of the extra ? fans on the printhead ? 
> 
> I can see the point of the case fans. 
> Does that ducting somehow point air at the printbed ?


It's these two:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:295317
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:350649
Combined together, both printed in ABS. As you can see in the first link it has ducts that redirect the air to where the extruder is placing the material, thus cooling the extruded material that much faster! Because you want to material to cool from +-230 degrees to 30 degrees as fast as possible so that it retains its shape and doesn't warp.




> So what is the box with knobs on for fixed to the top of the printer ?


It's a PC fan controller, hooked it up to a 12V adapter. I can adjust the fan power there if needed. Didn't want to solder directly onto the Flashforge, so just made the cooling a seperate 'unit'. And it currently is duct taped for testing purposes - I will, of course, print a nice enclosure for that as soon as possible!!




> And have you bought 2 now ?


I bought 2 right from the start, because this price point allows me to have one machines to completely tinker with and/or optimize each machine for different purposes. Currently I use one for ABS and one for PLA (the one with the additional cooling.)
Want to try out stuff like Sailfish firmware, and a whole lot of other modifications too, so it's safe to always have a 'normal' functioning back-up in case something goes wrong.





> Those spheres are amazing ! 
> It's got to be cooling the layers between each layer printing. 
> Can you point me at the bracket and what you actually did ?


Links are above; printed those two in ABS at .2mm height with 20% infill. 230 extruder temp, 110 bed temp. low speed (can't remember the exact numbers.. but S L O W! took 2-3 hours to print only that large piece.)
Then mounted all that with the other part (took me a while to figure out how it worked, but it simply 'clicks' together..
Screw a fan on it (I used the NOISIEST one I could find (simply because it moves A LOT of air.)
And then either solder it to the Flashforge somewhere, or create an external power supply/adapter like I did.
This fan duct alone already helps a lot of people, but I like the mentality of 'Go big or go home' so I added those two on the sides as well just to remove all leftover heat in the parts.




> Never heard of buildtak mats - But so far everything sticks really well to blue tape. And I'm doing more prints without rafts.


If it works and sticks, then keep using it! For some reason all the tape and glue just didn't work after some period of time,, (maybe it's the climate? maybe I'm doing something wrong?) so for me, these mats appear to be a good solution.

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## curious aardvark

okay just printed some marvins - tp prove a point, to myself mainly, and might help others. 

Middle marvin was printed all on his own. So lots of hot plastic going on hot soft layers. 

left and right marvins were printed together. So had minor cooling between layers. 

.2mm and 60mms printspeed. 

You can see the difference - hell righty is pretty near perfect. Must have had fewer double layers.
marvins_800x578.jpg

Right, I definitely need ducts ! 

Oh yeah it's thermochromatic abs - hence the colour change between pictures as the twins cool down :-) 

And as i was messing with a new tripod for the webcam - here's the top half of twin marvins being printed :-)

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## Dargonfly

Yep, that was exactly the same problem I had: too much heat remained in the piece which allows it to warp. Which gives Marvin a 'lumpy' ass.  :Stick Out Tongue: 
Printing two, like you did, already helped me a lot too, but I don't always want to print two, so I got that duct (get the one without holes, or you'll have to tape it), get a fan that moves a lot of air, solder it to the Flashforge or to a 12V adapter and you're good to go!

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## Dargonfly

Another update:

Printed a Marvin in PLA (with all fans full speed!)


Here it is being printed. The Duct Tape is because 1) I screwed the screw too hard.. thus cracking the part. 2) I screwed another screw too hard... (this time the fan screw..) so Duct tape to the rescue  :Smile: 
Lights are nice  :Smile: 



Here is the Marvin evolution!
Still some burned 'eyebrows' ,, and the overhanging 'hanger' part isn't perfect.... but it's getting better! It's evolving!



Ok, I am happy with these tests. Going to print out some little figurines now and do some testing with supports!

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## curious aardvark

Ducts printed and fitted. 
Oldish processor fan fitted - just need to figure out some wiring and power now and I'm ready to try that sphere again !

***

Holes ? (oh yeah wondered what they were for). 

Tape ? Nah a little bit of abs raft and some acetone. Holes - what holes ! 

Don't do soldering - but that's never stopped me before :-)

I cracked one of the screw holes as well - little bit of acetone and it's good as new. 

But I have now run out of spare m3 nuts. Guess i'll hae to find some on amazon for whatever needs modding next :-)

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## Dargonfly

> Ducts printed and fitted. 
> Oldish processor fan fitted - just need to figure out some wiring and power now and I'm ready to try that sphere again !
> 
> ***
> 
> Holes ? (oh yeah wondered what they were for). 
> 
> Tape ? Nah a little bit of abs raft and some acetone. Holes - what holes ! 
> 
> ...


I need to get some acetone too! Trying the acetone vapor chamber is also on my 3D-printing-to-do-list.

I also ran out of screws / nuts so I just took some from the enclosure of the Flashforge in places that didn't hold that much...  :EEK!: 
need to buy replacements soon before the whole thing shakes apart!

EDIT: Looking forward to your results for the air duct in place!

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## curious aardvark

well looking at the extruder motors - I figure I can tap their plug for power. Couple of things to check first, but don't see any problems. Fan shouldn't  draw sufficient power to effect the motor.  Plus it would mean I don't have to add any extra or trailing wires.

I'll have  a play this evening. Love the way the whole cooling assembly just clips in. That little add on bracket makes all the difference :-)

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## Geoff

nice work, I can't run any sort of fans like that and ironically I have the same machine, those fans would make my ABS prints cool down too fast and shrink while printing.. 

I print in ABS mainly tho on the flashforge, so I don't get that goopy last few layers like the PLA does, the kossel has no heated bed so it's pretty straight.. I hate how makerware and replicator G inherently slow down at those last couple of layers and its like NO... lol don't hover the nozzle there.. go faster!...  :Smile: 

I will print the 3D hubs thingo tomorrow and post my prints here, i've been printing kossel parts for 2 days solid on 3 machines and my ears are ringing literally.. I just want a quiet night tonight  :Embarrassment:

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## Dargonfly

> nice work, I can't run any sort of fans like that and ironically I have the same machine, those fans would make my ABS prints cool down too fast and shrink while printing.. 
> 
> I print in ABS mainly tho on the flashforge, so I don't get that goopy last few layers like the PLA does, the kossel has no heated bed so it's pretty straight.. I hate how makerware and replicator G inherently slow down at those last couple of layers and its like NO... lol don't hover the nozzle there.. go faster!... 
> 
> I will print the 3D hubs thingo tomorrow and post my prints here, i've been printing kossel parts for 2 days solid on 3 machines and my ears are ringing literally.. I just want a quiet night tonight


I believe it has a lot to do with the climate.. but it could also simply be some combination of user+material+software.
My philosophy regarding 3D printing is: "if it works... it works!"  :Smile: 

I look forward to your print! ..and yeah, I get what you mean by ringing ears.. all the noises these things make, as if I'm working in a factory!  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## curious aardvark

Actually I was thinking cooling the abs down really quickly would probably stop it warping quite as much. 
If every layer goes down at the same cool temp - then you won't get that gradual temperature gradient that causes the warping - because it's already been shrunk. 
It's a theory :-)

And it's the first few layers of abs on any curved surface or printing very small items that are my issue the fan should sort. 

The level bed seems to have sorted abs warping. Well i haven't had any since I got it. 

Also thinking it'll help with the stringing I get with the nylon 618. And maybe reduce warping on that as well. Particularly as it prints on a cool bed. 

Soon as I get it hooked up to some juice - I'll let you know :-)

ps. what's a 3dhubs thingo ?

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## curious aardvark

That buildtak stuff is quite expensive - how durable does it feel ? 
IE: how long will it last before holes appear. And is it soft or firm. Is it going to just lift if something warps ?

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## Dargonfly

I look forward to what you can do with the Nylon.




> That buildtak stuff is quite expensive - how durable does it feel ? 
> IE: how long will it last before holes appear. And is it soft or firm. Is it going to just lift if something warps ?


As a disclaimer: I only have the Buildtak surfaces for a week now and ran about 10-20 prints on them of small sizes in either PLA or ABS. (So not THAT much experience with it....)
Having said that; for me it's a good build surface.
It is a few mm thick, and feels really durable. The bottom is super sticky (difficult to align correctly to your aluminum plate because it sticks immediately. The top is some sort of 'matte finished flexible hard plastic'.

The top gives me really good stick with ABS, and 'ok' stick with PLA (but I solved this by applying just a little bit of glue before each print!) - and the top gives a really nice smooth surface to the print; my first layers are better then what they were on kapton or blue tape (DO NOTE that I was less experienced when I used those other surfaces; so maybe I just did it wrong.)

Regarding durability; if you have to 'scrape' your part off (had this problem at the start with ABS that was sticking too well) then you see that the surface becomes a bit smoother at that point, but after good leveling it sticks good now, but is still easy to remove.
Also; I had the extruder head (when it's 230 degrees!) hit the Buildtak surface a few times; this creates a small dent in the surface (no through holes - probably not possible due to few mm thickness, but who knows?) , but doesn't break the surface and it doesn't seem to have any effect on my print quality (yet).

Hope this helps you/gives you an idea of what it is.

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## curious aardvark

cheers :-) 

It's only a couple of weeks untill the tct show at the nec. 
So I'm not buying anything at the moment untill I've been there (hopefully get some filament bargains and maybe some spare bits). That said - I currently don't have any real issues with things sticking.   

Just looked through the exhibitors list - and while buildtak aren't listed, there'll probably be someone there using it. 

Well my current 'things made of nylon that work' consist of some clips (pics posted of them on my nylon 618 thread) and some hanging loops for teatowels/dishcloths/hand towels etc. 
I'll probably put those on thingiverse at some point. And I'll also make a pre-curved version that works with abs.

It's basically a strip of nylon with a plug at one end and a hole at the other, you poke the plug through the cloth and through the hole and it makes a hanging loop.

We had some many years ago and just haven't been able to get any more since. So I made my own :-) They work great :-)

And at less than 0.5gms of nylon per strip - they're ridiculously cheap. Plus it prints 4 in about 10 minutes.

***

so decided to look at geraldines motherboard. and yep there are lots of places to get power for the ducting fan, except: 3v, 5v and 24v - no 12v :-(
on the positive side looks like it should be pretty easy to move the on off switch to the front.

I only have 12v fans. looks like i'll have to take it from the computer psu for now and order a 24v fan.

one of these in fact: http://www.amazon.co.uk/0-10A-5000RP...cp_computers_2
ordered a bag of 100 m3 nuts as well. less than £3.50 for both :-)  
At the moment I'm thinking Ill take the power from the same connector as the stepper motor cooling fan connector. shouildn't be any kind of load issue as both are 0.1amp. I'll have a word with my electrician mate for some suitable wire and hopefuly she'll be a good one :-)

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## Dargonfly

Well, you've already ordered the fan now (which is the best option),
..but you could've also put two 12V fans in series on the 24V rail. Or just place one fan on the 5V rail (which will mean it'll spin (a lot) slower, but maybe sufficient.)
But like I said, your solution is a lot cleaner (and fans aren't that expensive yeah.)  :Smile: 

Where did you buy the Nylon from? Want to do some testing with it too, and since NL isn't that far from UK shipping should be the same here.

But tonight I want to do a quick and simple test with a sphere without a flat bottom.. basically almost no surface for first layer. Let's see if that adheres to the Buildtak?

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## curious aardvark

So did the sphere work ? I'd be amazed if it did.

I got the fan working and it was going well when the computer died. Need new psu - and I was busy thereafter with other things. 
I'll change psu's and try again later :-) 

But I did discover one drawback to the ducting adaptor. Bloody thing hits the bulldog clips. So now I'll have to figure out a system to hold the aluminium plate in place that's super low profile. 

The little bit of sphere I printed yestreday before the power went - was a huge improvement. So it's definitely working :-)

Far as the nylon goes - it was christmas present, so no idea where it came from. 

but 3dfilaprint do the nylon bridge at a reasonable price. And that's supposed to be a lot easier to use than the 618 I've got.
http://www.shop.3dfilaprint.com/bridge-70-c.asp
Cheaper than any I've seen on ebay. And avoid the ebay stuff that just says 'nylon' without any other description. I'm not saying it's all garden strimmer line - but it's probably closer to that than to the taulman stuff :-)

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## Dargonfly

I forgot all about the sphere and printed the 'Helix challenge' to see if I could get some good 3-4cm bridges. ( http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4659 )

Good to hear that the ducking adapter worked, sad to hear your PSU died though ;o
Don't you have sunken screw holes in the Aluminum plate? that would solve the issue of the bulldog clips.

I will print a full sphere (without supports/raft) tonight - I think it will be doable  :Cool:  - and make some pictures together with the double helix outcome.

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## curious aardvark

MY aluminium plate sits on top of the original printbed - which is not even close to being level.

lol the psu was second hand - I just pulled one from a dead pc. 

Anyway that's all changed and working. And wow doesn't the ductfan make a difference !

Here's the lastest marvin. printed at 0.2 and 0% infill. Hollow :-) 
marvinevolution_800x489.jpg

So not only was the left one printed faster, it was on it's own. 

Brilliant :-) 

Hollow sphere currently about halfway through. And looking pretty good :-)

sphereevolution_800x417.jpg

Okay spot the difference :-) 
I can print ping pong balls ;-)

Unbelievable difference - I am so glad I talked you into getting a flashforge. 
:-))))))

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## Dargonfly

Cool stuff man! I need to start printing more hollow models too, the difference in quality is huge at times and I don't need the strength that the infill give me.
The only thing I see that you could improve on is your first few layers; do you heat the bed while printing? If not; you could try printing a larger 'brim' for the first 5 layers, just to give your layers some time to cool down. Or simply print an object next to it that's only 0.5mm high.

Haha, I thought exactly the same thing about those ping-pong balls!  :Wink: 

*I* am the one that's happy being talked into a Flashforge; the options to mod these things is great and for the cost they have a very good quality (aka great bang-for-your-buck!)

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## curious aardvark

it's abs so - heated bed. 
I'm not going to be printing organic models very often. So I can happily live with that. The 24v fan might shift more air - should be here by the weekend. 
I did print out a model dimpled glande (ancient slinging bullet crossed with modern aerodynamics) with a much smaller initial 'footprint'. And that was damn near perfect. 

I've got a roll of pla I haven't really used - so might see if that's any better. Plus I need to try the nylon again. 

Not to mention the dual extruder printing thing. And making some bed clips and moving the on/off switch to the front...

This is not a hobby that'll grow stale in the forseeable future :-)

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