# 3D Printing > General 3D Printing Discussion >  Having issues 3D printing Printable Scenery's Black Ship (New to printing)

## eantrin

Specs:

Stock Creality Ender 3

PLA Black

Layer height .2

Infill 20%

Y offset .2

Nozzle Temperature 200C

Bed Temperature 60C

Recently got a Creality Ender 3, and went through the usual troubleshooting issues of bed leveling, wheel loosening, filament kinking, etc. I thought I'd be able to print on a larger scale and handle the 5 pieces that come together into a fantasy Pirate ship from printable scenery. When printing the first piece, the top of the bow, I noticed some layers under the railing had come loose, and thought it more an issue that the railings had no support, though the site says you don't need it. Second part, lower bow printed with no issue, but the curved areas seemed a little rough. Upon printing the third, the midsection the issues came back, but worse, and I'm worried the problem has gotten worse. 


This is the main issue that made me stop all prints until it was fixed, I think its called blobbing / pimpling? 
unnamed.jpg

Noticed these strings inside as the infill was being printed. Wanted to share it as another symptom of what might be wrong. 
qwe.jpg

Any advice for how to fix it? I'm at my wit's end...

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## curious aardvark

what are your retraction settings ? 
got a link to the model ?

Just because it says doesn't need supports, doesn't mean it'll always be clean. sometimes the bridging can be quite long, and different slicers deal with it differently. 
what speed are you printing at ? 

Dunno if it's just me - but the bead always seems to be large and not obviously part of the those above and below from the ender 3's.
Might be cura I suppose. Never did get on with it ;-)

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## eantrin

I have been using Ultimaker Cura since it came on the SD card that came with the printer. Is there a better slicer to work with? 

Print at 60 mm/s as default 

Here's an image of what I'm trying to print with the retraction settings on the right. Hope this is what you meant by link to model.
Data.jpg

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## curious aardvark

picture too small to read the writing. 

picture of boat is fine :-)

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## eantrin

-Notices the pic didn't scale as I thought it would-

Crap! Sorry....

Not sure which settings you want, so I'll list everything the sliver offers

Retraction Enabled
Retract at Layer change Disabled
Retraction Distance 5mm
Retraction Speed 40mm/s
Retraction Retract speed 40mm/s
Retraction Prime speed 40mm/s
Retraction extra prime amount 0mm cubed 
Retraction minimum travel 0.8mm
Maximum retraction count 90
Nozzle Switch retraction distance 16mm
Nozzle Switch retraction speed 20mm/s
Nozzle Switch retract speed 20mm/s

Hope that's enough

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## curious aardvark

okay so you've got a short bowden tube. Long slow retractions are always going to be an issue. Not sure why people recmmend them. to be honest.
As a general rule the faster you can retract the cleaner the print will be. 
5mm is probably too long, certainly at 40mm. by the time it's pulled the filament in and pushed it back out, it'll have missed the start of the next printing section. 
The general rule is make retractions as fast as you can. 60-70mms is my usual retraction speed - on all machines. 
Also you want the shortest amount you can get away with. 2-3mm is what I usually aim for. 

Not a clue what: retraction count 90 - means. 

slicer wise - it is worth buying simplify3d. It's probably the only software I've paid for in the last 10 years, and I don't regret it. 
Currently run the 2 deltas and ctc i3 off that and my replicator pro clone from flashprint. 

there are a number of other slicers out there - slic3r would be cura's main rival. 
A good slicer runs the gamut between too many settings and not enough. For me, simplify3d hits the balance perfectly with more than enough settings to tinker with, but not so many that it's just bloody confusing_ (like retraction count :-) ) _ 

Quite a few threads around here listing alternative free slicers - it is worth trying them out.

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## TommyDee

retraction count 90 is likely 90 steps; almost half a turn on a 200 step stepper.

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## eantrin

Set distance to 2mm, speed to 70mm/s still having the issue. Think it might just be that Cura can't set up this print properly? If so, might just bite the bullet and get Simply3D while wallet still aches from Christmas.

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## TommyDee

Recently I've been playing with some retraction profiles.  The results of minor tweaks are astounding!  From utterly failing to the best print ever with a single change of less that 10% in the settings.  Another where prints had blobs consistently on each layer at the start to nice smooth well managed seams which required a 50% change in values.

If you watch CNC Kitchen on YouTube, you will see how Stephan (?) has made test parts that change parameters throughout the print.  This lets you pick the parameters that work.  Temperature; retractions; speed; feed; etc... and combinations of those in a torture model that is easily evaluated at the end.

Having dealt with various qualities of materials I'm learning quickly that one profile doesn't work for all.  You either manage the materials, or you qualify every material you run from different suppliers and build a profile for each.

I have 2 different PETG materials from two different OEM's that will not run properly on each other's profiles... but I can run all my ABS from one supplier through either profile with excellent results.

Bottom line, this is not a slicer problem.  This is a calibration issue.  The user has two choices; trust other users to create highly functional profiles, or do it yourself.  Personally, I prefer to do it myself based on known parameters.

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## eantrin

I'll try varying the retractions from 2-4, speed from 40-100 (though Cura's text box turns yellow when I go above 70, suppose figuring out if that's genuine is for testing). Good to know I may not need a $150 piece of software so soon after Christmas.

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## TommyDee

Typically, just slowing the print itself down will take care of a lot of common issues.  You can dial the retract details from there.  Get good results and proper dimensions on your test piece and you have a good "detail" profile for whatever filament you are running.  Now you can start speeding it up and see what your print quality limits are before a little more tweaking needs to be done on the other dials.  It really does test the patience of the most hardened geeks and they are relentless!  (No offence to geeks = cred')

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## eantrin

Starting to hear the occasional thud when my printer is laying down the first and second layers, is that anything to be deeply concerned about or might it be from setting the retraction settings to about 70-80mm/s (Where Cura has the text box go warning yellow)

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## TommyDee

Clunks are bad!  It typically indicates something is loose and it is heavy and reacts to sudden velocity changes from a stepper motor.

Typically these can be found by putting a finger in a safe place near the suspected member of the system that would provide positive feedback.

There is also something quiet common but not often associated with a mechanical "clunk".  That is filament stripping by the filament driver gear.  If the velocity of the filament feed is greater than the nozzle can melt and output, then the next weakest link will give.  In this case, that is the filament driver gear.  If it cannot drive filament forward, it will simply strip the filament and skip that particular advancement.  Excessive stripping will fail to forward the filament for the remainder of the print.  This excessive case is easily noted by studying the filament and looking for a scalloped section of the filament where the driver is just free-wheeling.

In my case, the stripping of filament has a very distinct sound.  Hopefully that is all your are dealing with.  That simply means you need more temperature or reduced filament velocity.

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## eantrin

Only seems to have happened when I upped the retraction distance and speed, do you think it went too far back and might have caused some stripping issue? I also noticed on the spool that the temperature range is 205-225 (I thought that was a serial number at first) and the printer runs at 205C nozzle by default. Should I up it to about 215C-225C? On top of checking the filament for stripping of course.

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## TommyDee

Yea, hitting the middle of the specified temperature range is a good starting point.  There are a lot of other calibration issues in the chain that may give you erroneous readings though.  I know my machine is typically 5 degrees cooler at the nozzle due to cumulative inaccuracies.  I take this into account with recipes.

Then again, there is no reason not to start at the high end if you know your machine reports a temperature that is pretty close to the actual temperature.  Give it a +/-5 degrees C hedge either way.  The reason I say this is because the upper end of the temperature is better flow.  When you've gone too far, you will get other heat-creep issues.  For instance, my canned configurations run 250 degree C materials (PETG) but its initial layer 1 temperature is 265!  Same with PLA, 235C for a print that continues at 215C after the first layer.  I suspect this is to get the print moving sooner while heater core elements are still normalizing their temperature.  To me, this is a poor implementation but they know a lot more than me.

Maybe try this first layer temperature trick(?)

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## eantrin

Sorry I've been so quiet, was trying out some different print settings before I posted again. On that note, managed to fix the unsettling thudding by setting my print temperature to 215C but still have the plastic drooping on the edges of the print along with stringing along the infill no matter what retraction settings I try.

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## TommyDee

Sounds like progress  :Smile: 

You are balancing velocity; feed speed; retract reaction time.  

So the clunks could have been strain on the filament driver mech?

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## eantrin

Sounds about right, so that means I can't go over 70 mm/s retraction or it will start clunking again. Trying to set it between 2-5 retraction distance but no effect. Only other setting I can think of is to up the layer height to .1

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## TommyDee

More gap, more feed.  

Retraction is a strange animal.  In g-code is is a combination of M227 and M228 commands.  There is a pullback and a resume value for M227.  This is a kind of pre-purge option.

Have you tried disabling the retractions?  This is an appropriate option in some cases where it is seriously detrimental in others.  However, it is one less parameter to deal with to get your move velocity and you feed velocities to work.  Then go back and add the "destring" or "Deblob" operation, that retraction provides.

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## eantrin

Ah- Umm...*Checks settings* 

Huh, you can in Cura. I will give that a try... Thank you.

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## eantrin

Noticing my prints are having a weird issue where the top right corner begins bending up off the bed as it goes. Bed runs at 60C but given the added 10C to the nozzle, should I do the same to the bed to fix this, or is it more the bed could use some adhesive of some kind (I've heard painter's tape, hair spray or the like works on the default bed). Only bringing this up as the bent print may be keeping the plastic sticking properly on the sides, as I have noticed the blisters and loops are getting smaller.

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## TommyDee

Did you get the filament extrusion dialed?

Sticking to the print bed is no simple matter but build surfaces help.
Me, LokBuild is fine and it works wonders with a water slurry of CubeGlue.  Can't give a better reference than that.

Tape:  I got the best tape in the world on the blue side... but the sticky side is still a removable adhesive with limited adhesion.   The tape is "crape" or s=crimped by definition, coming up if of little consequence from the printer part to curl up.

I've found that close perimeter ''sidewalks" help significantly.  Those that have a placid hold at best for one or two layer.  Just something that you know will stick and not curl up on you.

Making reliefs in geometry helps...  or my favorite (for the right prints) build the whole thing floating in a dense washable support structure!

If your parts are curling there is a significant heat differential between the plate and the part.  Come closer to equilibrium.  
A vice-like grip between the build plate and the part will simply cause layer delamination further up the print.
Plastic is known for always being under strain depending on the fabrication process.  That is what annealing is all about.

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## eantrin

Yup..looks like the issue is the print bed's surface has gotten an uneven texture (Seems to be from plastic melting to the bed itself) and that's causing the issue. Thanks for recommending the new print bed, though the CubeGlue doesn't seem to be available on Amazon. I assume I just need to order from a specialty shop or the like.

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## TommyDee

Sorry, no, Cube Glue is something 3D Systems has been selling for their Cubify line of printers but it only rarely shows up on eBay.  It is insanely expensive for what it is.  But if you ask what it is, for me it is magic because it works for me.  And it has only become more attractive since LokBuild holds onto it better than the PLA or ABS does.  I waste very little.  As a matter of fact, someone tempted me to water it down to use even less.  That was even better!  Now I can put down a very thin layer but it takes a little longer to dry.

Now mind you, a lot of PLA will stick perfectly well to LokBuild without any other treatment.  Some don't.  But for ABS, I keep that printer glue-slurried on the build plate.

Here is the specs for simpler searching:  3D Systems 390066-00

Others will call BS on me for saying all this but I honestly have no better reference.  I've tried the clear school glue which failed utterly; haven't tried hairspray... too many brands anyway.  I've experimented with many blue tapes only to find one obscure blue tape that was 10x better than all the rest in holding the filament... but then of course, the tape's glue to the bed releases and the parts still curl... and you have to wash off the blue tape that is stuck to your part with no sign of wanting to give it up.  So when I can make flat ABS parts on CubeGlue without any curling... I think I can speak with some level of authority.

This is MakeShaper natural ABS run at 260*C; Only one sample of many:
h.jpg

And in case you missed it, I don't have heated beds on my printers.

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## eantrin

The ender 3 has a heated bed, tends to run at 60C standard, so the adhesive may not be needed for every single print. Looking around I've noticed the Lokbuild beds don't seem to sell at the ender's 235x235 bed sizes, closest seems to be 203x203. Would that be close enough or should I try to buy bigger then trim it down to the proper size? If that doesn't work, is there a way to remove the melted plastic from the bed or should I just offset the nozzle more and clamp a glass plate onto the bed? Longer heat up times I know, but that's fine by me if my prints will stick and be removed cleanly / easily.

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## TommyDee

How funny.  I was looking for some more LokBuild for a magnetic plate conversion. 

You're in luck, You can get a good deal on the right size LokBuild shipped out of England at 332x340 with very reasonable shipping. Almost big enough for 4 of my plates.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LokBuild-3D...2/264137360405

CubePro, the top of the Cubify series, also has a heated bed.  They still use this same glue.

Not sure what your damage level is of your build plate.  Also not what your 1st layers looks like when printed.
Reducing gap to force sticking to the build plate is not the proper method.  You should have a final gap of approximately your tips aperture size.
Let me clarify; We set our gap to be zero (0) and let the machine know where zero is.  The slicer will add to zero by the first layer offset.
In order to protect the build surface on my machines, the procedure will make sure I have a 0.22 gap all over the build plate, and that is zero.
That means I start with a 0.22 gap if I set the slicer to 0.0 for 1st layer offset.  But that is not the case, on top of the 0.22mm mechanical gap, I also have a 0.25 slicer first layer gap.
That means my initial gap when printing is actually 0.48mm which is very close to my nozzle aperture size.
Other systems are set up in different ways, point here is to understand fully what the initial gap and slicer gap could mean depending on how the machine handles it.

Trying to stuff the plastic in the build plate simply means you put significant restriction on filament flow.  This is also hard on the filament drive motor... and the filament will likely skip an jump meaning less filament ends up being delivered.

Have a look at this print... this is the build plate side.  I ran this with an initial print gap of 0.55.  LokBuild took it and helds it.  And that is because this PLA just worked excellently and the surface was in very good condition.

nearperfect.jpg

Obviously, for larger areas, build plate flatness is also important.

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## eantrin

Ran a few test prints under more default settings to see if any tampering with settings had caused these issues. Can say none of the settings are causing the adhesion problem, though after a few tess did notice one consistent problem. On the left is a piece I printed when I first got the printer, on the right is what I'm consistently getting now. Noticing the stringing issues that also started appearing back with the ship prints, though 
a guide online did say increasing retraction by 5mm per test can help dial in those kinds of fixes. 
unnamed.jpg

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## TommyDee

Love the one on the left!  Do you still have one of the older print files?  Cura writes settings in their sliced files.

I'm going out on a limb here and suggest you have a z-compensation setting gone haywire.

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## eantrin

Cura was set to all defaults with the one on the left. Didn't wana touch it when it first arrived. What would be the best way to fix a Z compensation issue?

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## ralphzoontjens

Well then there's your solution  :Smile: To me it initially looked like overextrusion - check the flow and diameter settings too.

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## TommyDee

> Cura was set to all defaults with the one on the left. Didn't wana touch it when it first arrived. What would be the best way to fix a Z compensation issue?


I am a Cura novice.  I know what's there, I know very little about interactions with other things.  Someone here should be able to confirm if there is any kind of z-compensation setting within Cura in case of poorly implemented printers.  Technically, Cura shouldn't care because telling the machine to move 0.2mm, the machine is the one that should know how.  that doesn't stop poor implementations.  So is there such an adjustment available in Cura?  Probably not.  Then where could such an adjustment hide?  F/W or Hardware!

Not kidding... I know someone with a replicator early unit and they put the wrong belt cog on!  Need I say more?  But F/W is another suspect only in that it could be interpreting a stepper-count incorrectly.  When it thinks it moved 0.2mm it in fact moved "twice that!" ... That is a slipped bit in the code.  I've had slicers do that but I know that is just S/W gone bonkers for an instance.  So your problem can be anywhere in the chain.  The S/W one is the easiest to diagnose.

Diagnose the BFB: The BFB file is the data your printer's F/W decodes.  Cura simply tells your printer where to squirt plastic.  So when the z-values in the code are properly stated, then you know the F/W - Hardware is the suspect.  Properly stated here means that you mean to have a layer height of 0.2mm and your BFB print file consistenly increments Z by 0.4mm.  If that is the case, then Cura -IS- the culprit.  If, however, Cura is faithful in Z-increments by 0.2 as you told it too, then your hardware and F/W are the remaining suspects.

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## TommyDee

> Well then there's your solution To me it initially looked like overextrusion - check the flow and diameter settings too.


If you look at the image, left shows the blue tape texture and a pretty tight gap.  the right appears to be a top-side image with excessive gap which is contributing to poor wall bonding.  The infill too is not really being "placed" if that makes sense.  This is consistent with a gap that has a compensation factor applied to it.  However, the two side by side prints are apples and oranges in what they portray.  You can see the elephant foot splay on the far side of the part in the right image.

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