# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > RepRap Format Printer Forum > MakerFarm Forum >  PEI Sheet for Bed Adhesion

## adamfilip

I purchased a 1/16" 12x12 sheet of PEI Plastic
doing a first test directly onto it.. with nothing else
so far with ABS its sticking.. i really hope this is the adhesion holy grail  :Smile:  lol

I know someone is going to ask so I got it here
http://www.mcmaster.com/#8685k43/=vs6z09

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## sniffle

there is something richrap made a blog post about i think called bed eez and it even allows nylon to stick, supposedly it's pretty awesome as well... i might try getting some

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## pichuete

PEI Sheet is great for adhesion. but kind of tricky also a least for a noobie like me . i have notice that you need to be a little high on first layer comparing to glass (hairspray method) also set the temperature 80 - 90 for ABS . if you go higher than that i will stick so much that you literally need to break the printed part to take it off .

at the beginning i was having issues trying to get it to stick , that was solved by sanding very lightly  with a 5000 grit automotive sand paper . this is common with PEI Sheets with a glossy finish . 

also do NOT use acetone on your sheet . i clean it with Alcohol , acetone will disolved abs into the "pores" of the sheet making removing parts very very difficult!.

now im thinking of buying another sheet .my doesnt seem to be perfectly flat even though is sticked to a glass with 3m 468mp transfer tape

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## adamfilip

I did a first print perfectly. snapped off easily once cooled.. havent sanded it.. still a high gloss finish, i also dont have it taped down. its just sitting ontop of my glass , held down by the binder clips

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## brochapman

Would this be the same thing?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013HQ7B0/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

I only ask as I got a few amazon gift cards for Christmas and I can spend that without the spousal grief of ordering from McMaster.  I cant just buy one thing from there.   :Smile: 

Also how hard is it to cut this stuff?  I have a 10" i3v so I would need to cut it down.

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## hernejj

adamfilip,

Did you use any cooling or heating of the piece or bed? Also, what hot end temp did you use? 

Have you done any more experimenting with it?  :Smile:

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## pichuete

> Would this be the same thing?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013HQ7B0/ref=biss_dp_t_asn
> 
> I only ask as I got a few amazon gift cards for Christmas and I can spend that without the spousal grief of ordering from McMaster.  I cant just buy one thing from there.  
> 
> Also how hard is it to cut this stuff?  I have a 10" i3v so I would need to cut it down.


Yes that's the one i have .  as for cutting the sheet i didnt have to cut it. only the corners but a glass cutter or a dremel should work.

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## adamfilip

> adamfilip,
> 
> Did you use any cooling or heating of the piece or bed? Also, what hot end temp did you use? 
> 
> Have you done any more experimenting with it?


Ive printed 3 items on it..
so far its been really awesome..! im not exagerating

I printed some single wall items with no bottom layer that hold down well.. 

Printing ABS at 245, bed is 120
it holds strong until it cools to 30-35 degrees.. even at 50 degrees its still got a good hold
not using any cooling

Loving it so far.. havent tried it with PLA yet

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## adamfilip

> Yes that's the one i have .  as for cutting the sheet i didnt have to cut it. only the corners but a glass cutter or a dremel should work.


Looks similar, Its like acrylic to cut.. stiff board.. i suggest you go thicker so give it more rigidity. 1/16" if its thicker / flat, you dont need to glue it down.

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## bstag

> Ive printed 3 items on it..
> so far its been really awesome..! im not exagerating
> 
> I printed some single wall items with no bottom layer that hold down well.. 
> 
> Printing ABS at 245, bed is 120
> it holds strong until it cools to 30-35 degrees.. even at 50 degrees its still got a good hold
> not using any cooling
> 
> Loving it so far.. havent tried it with PLA yet


PEI and PLA are great. I didn't even turn on the hot bed when i used it.  I have since migrated to buildtak. The hardest part for either type is printing to close which every one has gotten use to. NO smoosh the stuff just sticks.

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## brochapman

> Yes that's the one i have .  as for cutting the sheet i didnt have to cut it. only the corners but a glass cutter or a dremel should work.


Cool.  I will order a sheet then to learn with.  I bet I can take it to work and use our router to trim it down to the right size, we cut acrylic all the time.  I will probably get a little thicker sheet tho to make cutting easier.

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## ssayer

Yep, Buildtak is pretty darn good. If I didn't own 5 sheets of it, I might try this PEI stuff...

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## bstag

> Yep, Buildtak is pretty darn good. If I didn't own 5 sheets of it, I might try this PEI stuff...


It amazing how much crap you don't have to deal with when your print sticks no matter what. I am 300 prints or so into my current sheet of buildtak on the i3v and more then that on the other 2 3d printers I have.  Wonder how much time i have save by not spraying and not cleaning the surface over and over again.

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## gmay3

Both of these material sheets (PEI and Buildtak) are pretty intriguing. Especially since on the buildtak website an 8x8" sheet is only 10 dollars and because of bstags testamonial above.

Is the buildtak spongy? Would ABL accuracy be affected if it is? So far I've been a stickler for hardware store glass but I may make the switch!

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## AbuMaia

I wonder, does the Buildtak go straight on the bed heater, or on the glass?

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## ssayer

> Is the buildtak spongy? Would ABL accuracy be affected if it is? So far I've been a stickler for hardware store glass but I may make the switch!


Not "spongy" but not rigid either... trying to think how I'd describe it... maybe like a hard rubber...

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## ssayer

> I wonder, does the Buildtak go straight on the bed heater, or on the glass?


I put mine on glass. That way I can pull one print off, drop another BuildTak covered glass on, and start printing right away while the already finished print is still cooling off...

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## bstag

> I wonder, does the Buildtak go straight on the bed heater, or on the glass?


Yeah put it on your flat surface what ever it may be. In my case its a aluminum bed. To describe the surface would be best as really fine sandpaper thats been filled in..

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## AbuMaia

As I currently have only one piece of borosilicate, I think I'll get only one sheet of Buildtak to try. If I like it, and get more borosilicate, I'll get more later.

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## usarmyaircav

I am totally impressed with the PEI sheet.   I have mine attached with the high temp 3m double sided adhesive tape.  No issues with prints sticking,  every few prints or so,  I also give it a light sanding with 2,000 grit sandpaper.  I have been printing mine at 235 hotend, and 90 for the bed.  If they get a 10x10 buildtak, I might have to try that sometime.  correct me if I am wrong but they don't make that size yet.

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## bstag

> I am totally impressed with the PEI sheet.   I have mine attached with the high temp 3m double sided adhesive tape.  No issues with prints sticking,  every few prints or so,  I also give it a light sanding with 2,000 grit sandpaper.  I have been printing mine at 235 hotend, and 90 for the bed.  If they get a 10x10 buildtak, I might have to try that sometime.  correct me if I am wrong but they don't make that size yet.


Sure they do
http://www.amazon.com/BuildTak-Print...273608&sr=1-11

Make sure if any of you use it to not have the printer set to smush to much ever. The site covers it pretty well. you have to have the nozzle higher then normal or you end up with parts that could be very hard to remove.  Also hot bed temps can be lower.

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## ssayer

For sure. With PETG, I have my first layer height set to .18mm (.2mm with S3D set at 90% for first layer height gives .18mm). Go lower and you'll find just how strongly PETG can stick on BuildTak...  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## N5QM

Can you describe the process of putting the PEI sheet onto the glass with the adhesive?  I wasn't about to find a video describing the process and I expect you could make quite a mess of things if the adhesive is that sticky.

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## usarmyaircav

> Can you describe the process of putting the PEI sheet onto the glass with the adhesive?  I wasn't about to find a video describing the process and I expect you could make quite a mess of things if the adhesive is that sticky.


So I bought the 12 x12 3m adhesive , and 12 x12 PEI sheet.  I cleaned off my glass with rubbing alcohol.  Peeled off one side of the paper, and then did my best to start at one end apply it, trying to get all the bubbles out.  I didn't get them all out.  I heard it is ok to leave them in or to slice them with a knife to pop them, so mostly they were tiny.  I smoothed it out as best I could then put a board over it and left it overnight.

The next day I used my razor blade and trimmed it to fit the glass.  Pulled off the backing and did the same thing with the PEI sheet in that I tried to get it to lay flat, starting on one end and pushing it down onto the adhesive as I went.  Since it is 1 big sheet it went on smooth.  I then put a board over the glass/PEI, and put about 10' lbs of weights and left it until the next day.

Once that was on good, I used a new blade in my utility knife to score around the glass, as mine is a 10".  I then snapped off the remains.  It scored pretty decently, and I made several passes so that it was easy to snap off.

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## N5QM

Excellent, thank you sir.

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## adamfilip

I suggest folks just get a 1/16th sheet and then you dont need to adhere it to anything.
it can just sit on top of your existing glass. being held down by edge clips.

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## adamfilip

Just an update.. I have tried PLA and ABS on my PEI Sheet.. and its pefect!.. guys get this stuff. really its solved all of my adhesion issues.. im not exaggerating. forget ABS juice, hairspray, Blue or Green tape, Glue Sticks. or whatever PEI is what you need. get the thicker stuff 1/16 or thicker

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## gmay3

adamfilip a couple questions before I jump in! Does the PEI sheet give off any fumes when heated by the bed? How much ABS or PLA residue is left behind on the sheet after many prints. How do you clean it?

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## adamfilip

I haven't noticed any additional smell or fumes when using it. I dont have any residue as i peel off the part and skirt.. nothing is left 
and to be honest i havent cleaned it once since ive got it.. but I assume I would use alchohol to clean it

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## gmay3

Very interesting! Thanks for the responses!

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## adamfilip

The only one negative that i have found regarding this plastic is that. if the hotend somehow end up touching it directly and its very hot. it can leave a permanent mark on the PEI Plastic.
i have had this happen once with a headcrash while hot.. the mark was very small.

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## gmay3

Makes sense, I misread that the PEI was heat resistant up to 350 C but now looking at it again its really only 168 C.

On the other hand, the negative of glass is that it shatters  :Wink:

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## brochapman

so far all I can say is wow.  I got the 1/16th sheet from Mc Master and scored / snapped to the same size as my glass and used binder clips to hold it down.  So far so good, I have printed probably 20 parts and they have all stuck great and wont come off till the bed cools way down.   The sheet came with a slight bow in it.  I used binder clips to hold it down, but I think there is still a slight bow in the middle.  Any suggestions?  I am thinking getting the 3M high temp adhesive and attaching it to my glass. Was hoping not to have to do that but its not the end of the world if that's the best solution.

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## usarmyaircav

> so far all I can say is wow.  I got the 1/16th sheet from Mc Master and scored / snapped to the same size as my glass and used binder clips to hold it down.  So far so good, I have printed probably 20 parts and they have all stuck great and wont come off till the bed cools way down.   The sheet came with a slight bow in it.  I used binder clips to hold it down, but I think there is still a slight bow in the middle.  Any suggestions?  I am thinking getting the 3M high temp adhesive and attaching it to my glass. Was hoping not to have to do that but its not the end of the world if that's the best solution.


I went with the 3M adhesive, and find that it works great.

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## brochapman

Well I ordered a couple sheets of adhesive and another sheet of PEI.  I have a hard time only have one of something, I like to have a backup.

Thanks

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## Cameron

Hey guys. What temp settings are you using for ABS with your PEI sheets? I am still having major curling issues. Any tips appriciated!

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## adamfilip

I am using 120 for ABS, make sure your hotend gap is right. if its not pushing down into the PEI enough it wont grip

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## Cameron

Thanks for the tips. What temp is your ABS hot end at as well?

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## adamfilip

I run ABS at 245

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## sniffle

i run ABS at 250 :-)

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## Cameron

OK succes at bed at 120 and ABS at 250

Thanks for the input!

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## N5QM

I just installed PEI on my bed and ran my first print, a simple 20 x 20 calibration cube and had no problem at 230/85 with ABS, specifically Hatchbox ABS in Black.

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## N5QM

Sooo...  Does the PEI sheet make noise while warming up and cooling down for anybody else?  Mine makes a popping/cracking noise and it kinda freaks me out.

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## usarmyaircav

I haven't heard anything from mine.  I print my ABS at 235 and the bed at 110, I can do smalller objects with the bed at 90, but I get lifting on the corners if I don't have the bed up.  I have also taken to using a 60watt light to light up the bed and to also give heat, as my printer is near a window.  I have blue makerfarm 1.75, and Orange hatchbox ABS.  On a side note, I have had the makerfarm filament jam, and the printer just goes on printing air, I am thinking I run into random thicker spots or bumps in the filament.

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## Cameron

no noise here. Mine isn't taped to anything. I am just using about 8 clips to clip it to the glass that is above the heat plate.

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## clough42

Has anyone tried printing polycarbonate on PEI or buildtak?  I have a roll, but could never get it to stick to anything.

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## usarmyaircav

> Has anyone tried printing polycarbonate on PEI or buildtak?  I have a roll, but could never get it to stick to anything.


Over at the SeemeCNC site, where I first found out about PEI, I did a searth through the thread and found that the original thread poster mhackney in a post about his PEI install says "It's a GREAT choice for PLA, ABS and polycarbonate. I've run enough prints of all three of these to be comfortable with it."

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## AbuMaia

I was able to get one print out of my buildtak sheet before the second print started just a hair too low and ruined it. Would the PEI sheet be any more forgiving, or is it also sensitive to first layer height?

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## N5QM

> I was able to get one print out of my buildtak sheet before the second print started just a hair too low and ruined it. Would the PEI sheet be any more forgiving, or is it also sensitive to first layer height?


I have had mine close enough to where it blocks the extruded filament from coming out without any damage to the PEI sheet.  It however wouldn't tolerate the nozzle sitting on the PEI for a long period of time because of the melting point of the PEI.

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## AbuMaia

Plastic extruded too close and "smooshed" into the PEI sheet doesn't bother it?

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## N5QM

> Plastic extruded too close and "smooshed" into the PEI sheet doesn't bother it?


Not here, it looks like poop, but doesn't harm the PEI.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## pichuete

I haven't had any issues when first layer goes to low.  The only thing is that you may have a hard time removing it if you have your temp on the high side (95 - 100c).  I suggest not using anything sharp.

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## AbuMaia

I was running ABS at 250 on a 110 bed when it printed too low. There's no removing the plastic from the buildtak sheet without cutting holes in it.

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## sniffle

finally ordered mine, gonna need it possibly in the future

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## clough42

I've got one on the way, too.  Looking forward to it.  I'm printing whole plates of parts for sale, and I'm always losing one or two around the edges.  Seems like once I get enough layers of hair spray that things really start to stick well, it's about time to clean up and start over.

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## usarmyaircav

> I've got one on the way, too.  Looking forward to it.  I'm printing whole plates of parts for sale, and I'm always losing one or two around the edges.  Seems like once I get enough layers of hair spray that things really start to stick well, it's about time to clean up and start over.


You might want to get some high grit sandpaper, as you could still have some issues.  Every few print jobs I sand my sheet lightly with 1500 grit sandpaper in a cross hatch pattern, per what I read somewhere else.  I am still looking for the best combo  of temps.  I probably am not really calibrated the best I could be either.  I also just realized that I have had mine like 6 months, even though I haven't been really printing that total time, but it probably would be good to tighten everything up.

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## clough42

> You might want to get some high grit sandpaper, as you could still have some issues.  Every few print jobs I sand my sheet lightly with 1500 grit sandpaper in a cross hatch pattern, per what I read somewhere else.  I am still looking for the best combo  of temps.  I probably am not really calibrated the best I could be either.  I also just realized that I have had mine like 6 months, even though I haven't been really printing that total time, but it probably would be good to tighten everything up.


Thanks for the tips.  We'll see how it goes.

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## sniffle

> I've got one on the way, too.  Looking forward to it.  I'm printing whole plates of parts for sale, and I'm always losing one or two around the edges.  Seems like once I get enough layers of hair spray that things really start to stick well, it's about time to clean up and start over.


Im about to start doing the same c42

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## AbuMaia

Just placed an order for a 0.06 inch thick 12x12 PEI sheet from Amazon. We'll see how it goes. Nervous as it's over 2x the cost of Buildtak, which lasted me one print.

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## cub22908

> Just placed an order for a 0.06 inch thick 12x12 PEI sheet from Amazon. We'll see how it goes. Nervous as it's over 2x the cost of Buildtak, which lasted me one print.


I'm a complete noob at this, printing all of about 3 weeks now. I use the same PEI as you ordered and have perfect results with ABS and PLA. I have dragged the head all over the PEI and while it leaves permanent marks, they do not affect the print at all. They are just surface marks. You will be happy!

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## sniffle

got my PEI sheet intoday, have all the stuff peeled off it and cleaned with alcohol, now to wait on a print to finish so i can pull the glass clean it and install both together :-)

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## sniffle

C42 when you get your bed in raise your Z offest by at least .1 I jept my previous offset and while close it made things smoosh into the PEI and when i stopped the print to get it off(i had to wait on the bed to cool and had to scrape it off with my fingernail) for the few moments that the nozzle was stopped to extrude and wipe and where i stopped and immediately raised the hotend there are small littel spots on the sheet.  It's not the end of the world you can barely even feel them, but just giving you a heads up ahead of time.

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## clough42

Well...I"m not super impressed with the PEI yet.  I have a 1/16 sheet, and it doesn't really stay flat on the bed.  It has a little curl to it, so I just orient it with the bow downward and clip it down at the corners.  This is okay, but when it heats up, it rises a bit in the middle, causing the nozzle to drag a bit on the first layer.

As for adhesion, it seems similar to glass with hair spray so far.  I haven't tried sanding it yet.

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## AbuMaia

Where did everyone get their 3M adhesive sheet? Judging by C42's post, perhaps it may be needed. Still waiting for my PEI sheet to arrive, it's been marked as "delayed".

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## clough42

> Where did everyone get their 3M adhesive sheet? Judging by C42's post, perhaps it may be needed. Still waiting for my PEI sheet to arrive, it's been marked as "delayed".


Yup, I've got a delayed package out there, too.  Snowstorms are tying everything up.  The one time I spent the extra cash for overnight delivery...

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## beerdart

Ive been using the PEI sheet from McMaster for a few weeks and its almost to good as its very difficult to remove the parts im going to try some baby powder to see if it releases any better. I have it glued to a sheet of glass with Weldwood contact cement. 
Printing ABS bed temp 60.

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## sniffle

Beerdart if you use abl raise your offset by .1-.2 so it isnt pressed so hard onto the pei it helps to have it be not quite so smushed to come off easier

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## beerdart

My ABL offset is set to .004" .1mm off the sheet.

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## Cameron

My PEI was as good as glass with hairspray until I knocked the temp up to 120 then everything stuck perfectly. To get it very flat, I am using about 9 clips. My only complaint now is that at home, I have a little melted spot.

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## sniffle

i think i am up .2 mm from my location pre pei sheet... its odd how differently our sheets react... mine is hard to get off untill it cool then it pops off with slight effort... larger pieces i'm sure are harder

i modified my offset until i got the adhesion and first layer i was looking for... i am unsure of the actual distance

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## beerdart

Perhaps different suppliers.

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## clough42

Mine is from McMaster.  I've only tried it up to 100C.  120C seems pretty hot.  And it's well beyond the 85C stated adhesion limit for WeldWood.  You haven't had any trouble with separation?

I do allow the nozzle to touch the sheet, and it remains to be seen whether that causes a problem.  I purge the nozzle off the front edge of the bed [0,215] and then sweep all the way to the back [0,0] in contact with the surface  to wipe off anything that stuck to the nozzle then lift to .2mm and start printing the first layer.

I like this method because I don't have to peel off the loops around the part afterward.  I can just shoot some more hair spray on the bed and keep going.

I'm hoping the PEI can eliminate the hairspray, too.

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## sniffle

i use your same start process C42, i have a small spot on my pei where it purges but thats all

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## beerdart

I run at 70c bed temp and its more then enough for adhesion. Im going to try 50c to see if it helps with part removal. I have not had any separation with the Weldwood up to 90c that is the hottest ive tried.

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## AbuMaia

> Yup, I've got a delayed package out there, too.  Snowstorms are tying everything up.  The one time I spent the extra cash for overnight delivery...


That's exactly it. I paid a little extra to have it shipped Next Day from Amazon Prime. Then an email about it being delayed. It arrived today anyway, so it wasn't much of a delay.  

I didn't expect it to be transparent like amber plexi, though. Time to cut it up to fit my 8x8 boro.

edit: I'm having trouble cutting it. What's the trick? I've tried my Xacto and a glass cutter. I don't want to use my dremel if I can avoid it. That seems to be too rough.

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## beerdart

I just scored it and break like a sheet of glass.

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## voodoo28

Clough, can you share you starting code for the wipe process?



> Mine is from McMaster.  I've only tried it up to 100C.  120C seems pretty hot.  And it's well beyond the 85C stated adhesion limit for WeldWood.  You haven't had any trouble with separation?
> 
> I do allow the nozzle to touch the sheet, and it remains to be seen whether that causes a problem.  I purge the nozzle off the front edge of the bed [0,215] and then sweep all the way to the back [0,0] in contact with the surface  to wipe off anything that stuck to the nozzle then lift to .2mm and start printing the first layer.
> 
> I like this method because I don't have to peel off the loops around the part afterward.  I can just shoot some more hair spray on the bed and keep going.
> 
> I'm hoping the PEI can eliminate the hairspray, too.

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## AbuMaia

> I just scored it and break like a sheet of glass.


I tried whacking it with the ball end of my glass breaker... nothing. I tried flexing it like plexi.... nothing, until I got brave and REALLY flexed it. Then it finally snapped. At least it snapped clean along the score line, and didn't have stray cracks.

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## clough42

> That's exactly it. I paid a little extra to have it shipped Next Day from Amazon Prime. Then an email about it being delayed. It arrived today anyway, so it wasn't much of a delay.  
> 
> I didn't expect it to be transparent like amber plexi, though. Time to cut it up to fit my 8x8 boro.
> 
> edit: I'm having trouble cutting it. What's the trick? I've tried my Xacto and a glass cutter. I don't want to use my dremel if I can avoid it. That seems to be too rough.


Table saw.

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## clough42

> Clough, can you share you starting code for the wipe process?


Sure.  I'm doing this on a tablet, so hopefully I won't mangle it too badly.

Note that the move to the front is done in two moves.  This is to ensure it doesn't collide with the clips on the front of the bed.  If you move direct, the clips don't slow it down at all.  They fly across the room.

For this to work, make sure you have a clear path from [0,210,0] to [0,0,0].  If you don't, your life is going to get complicated very quickly.

START
M80 ; POWER ON
M42 P5 S255 ; light on
M190 S[first_layer_bed_temperature] ; wait for bed to heat up
M104 S[first_layer_temperature_0] T0 ; start heating T0
G1 Z5 F50 ; lift nozzle
G28 ; home X and Y axes
G29 ; auto bed level
G1 X0 F8000 ; move to side
G1 X2 Y210 F8000 ; move off front
G1 Z0 ; Level for wipe
M109 S[first_layer_temperature_0] T0 ; wait for heat
G90 ; absolute
T0 ; extruder 0
G92 E0
G1 E12 F50 ; extrude
G1 Y0 F8000 ; wipe






END
M104 S0 ; turn off temperature
G28 X0  ; home X axis
G28 Y0  ; home Y axis
M84     ; disable motors
M190 S0 ; wait for bed temperature to be reached
M42 P5 S0 ; light off
M81 ; power off

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## clough42

> I run at 70c bed temp and its more then enough for adhesion. Im going to try 50c to see if it helps with part removal. I have not had any separation with the Weldwood up to 90c that is the hottest ive tried.


That is weird.  I'm not getting great adhesion with mine.  I wonder if we're all getting different results, or if we're all judging by different standards...

Did you sand or clean your sheet?  I just peeled the liners off of both sides and started printing.

(It's going to be really funny if some of you are printing with the liners on and that's the difference.)   :Smile:

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## sniffle

my liner is off... when i was first adjusting my z offset i literally had to pull a part off with pliers

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## AbuMaia

> Table saw.


Yeah, no.  :Smile:  I don't have one, or access to one. That'd almost be worse than a dremel.  :Smile:

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## clough42

> Yeah, no.  I don't have one, or access to one. That'd almost be worse than a dremel.


Or better.  Worse would be a cutting torch.   :Smile:

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## AbuMaia

I do have access to one of those.  :Smile:  Thankfully it's not needed now.

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## beerdart

Yes I removed the protective sheet and I scuffed the sheet with scotchbrite.

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## usarmyaircav

I must admit I don't get the adhesion I would really like.  I could up the bed temp, just not overly enthused to do that.  over at the SeemeCNC forum where I was led by a google search, some folks had great adhesion, others not so much,  Almost all used the 3m adhesive to attach the PEI to their glass.  Like others here have said having your z height really locked down is supposed to make all the difference.  I am not sure I am where I really would like to be in that sense.  But when I get no lifting on the corners, (drafts?) I always have to wait until it is almost cool before I can pry the piece off.  So I guess I am not struggling with adhesion, so much as lifting at the corners like ABS is prone to.

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## sniffle

it's definitely all about the Z height...

printed this all at once on the 12" nothing lifted though i did have to remove the PEI so i could flex it to remove the parts...

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## usarmyaircav

Hey Sniffle, it looks like you are using a brim, what size a brim are you using?

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## sniffle

4mm, it's left over from when i printed on glass, figured it couldnt hurt just in case

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## clough42

> it's definitely all about the Z height...
> 
> printed this all at once on the 12" nothing lifted though i did have to remove the PEI so i could flex it to remove the parts...


What are the white things on either side of the print bed?

Is that a chamber, or just a workbench surface?

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## sniffle

> What are the white things on either side of the print bed?
> 
> Is that a chamber, or just a workbench surface?



It is a cheap set of lights i got from costco for 20$ i have my octoprint setup to do timelapse, overhead lighting leaves a lot of shadows so i got the lights and put a paper towel over them to soften the light so it wouldnt wash out the picture.

i have it setup to broadcast over the internet so i can monitor it from anywhere

and yes i print inside an enclosure

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## AbuMaia

What is that part on the right of the bed, with the six circular brims?

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## sniffle

that would be the dual E3D cooling shroud :-)

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## dunginhawk

I just finished my 12" i3v last night, and ran first two test prints (good early results).  Now ill attach my pei and let it roll.
So you are aware guys, the PEI (the one from amazon at least, not sure about MC) has 2 sides to it with different properties.
1 side is glossy, 1 is matte.
glossy works great for PEI without needing to sand, and the matte side is great for abs, but needs some fine grit sanding every 5 parts or so.

I have been using PEI  for about 4 months with STUNNING results. So i plan on putting a glossy side glass piece on, and a matte.

REMEMBER - DO NOT use PEI with ninjaflex, it will literally not come off.  It took me 45 minutes to peel off a 3 inch part.. 

BTW< i use pei with the 3m adhesive sheet.  for the prusa, ill attach them to glass sheets.
thanks

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## adamfilip

i havent noticed a matte side. its all glossy. i havent sanded
printed dozens of times. i barely even clean it

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## adamfilip

> Hey Sniffle, it looks like you are using a brim, what size a brim are you using?


i find brims a pain to remove

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## dunginhawk

> i havent noticed a matte side. its all glossy. i havent sanded
> printed dozens of times. i barely even clean it


Did you buy from amazon or another site> the one amazon sells definately has a matte and gloss side, each.... its a little hard to see if you arent looking for it.

thanks

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## adamfilip

ive recently had issues with adhesion
i ended up taping the PEi to my glass using Tessa Double sided tape
i have the PEI sheet a light sanding with a 300 grid sandpaper
im getting alot of lift at corners. not sure why
printing at 120 bed temp

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## usarmyaircav

I still get some lift, I think I need to build an enclosure.  However when I use a brim I don't have lifting problems, just would prefer not to print with a brim.  I sand mine with like 1,000 grit, and then wipe it down with rubbing alcohol.  I print at 105 to 110 bed temp, been tempted to try higher but haven't yet.

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## beerdart

I have been printing a marathon session with the PEI and its preforming great almost to great  and the parts are very difficult to remove with my first layer squish .002" to prevent curling so I tried some baby power and bam the the part sticks without curling and pops off with ease. Theses are buttons for my sons robotics competition this weekend. We have printed back to back prints for what seams like days.. 
Print specs.  65c bed temp 70+ was impossible to remove.
ABS nozzle 240c

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## adamfilip

My recent failure.. what a mess...anyone have any tips on how to remove plastic on the heater block and exterior of nozzle.
after this. i sanded the PEI with 1000 grit , hoping for better results

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## adamfilip

so far, sanding it seems to really help.. acting normal again.  printing so well that i might keep the bowden

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## dunginhawk

After sanding make sure to wipe down with isopropyl alcohol. always do that anyway.

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## adamfilip

did that, my print that i was doing looks great, but warped in the end. 
It seems like when i print a Skirt, its not as low as my first layer as it tends to curl up.

I set my pei bed heat from 110-120
would reducing my bed temp,  help with warping with ABS

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## dunginhawk

So there are a ton of factors with warping.

1. how close to the edge of the bed you print. (more warp)
2. How evenly the heat bed heats (check temps in corners vs center)
3. If its an enclosed environment to retain said heat.
4. Size of part - Larger parts will warp more.
5. Infill percentage of the part (more infill, more cooling plastic to pull on corners)
6. What you are using to adhere part to bed.
7. Temperature of the bed. 

I found with large parts, with a fair amount of infill (15% +) I create a custom brim. I use 123d design and create 20mm strips to match up to the sides of my part and make them .4mm in height (2 layers) then i import them along with my part in to simplify3d and line them up overlapping the main part (on the same plane) by a few mm.  This fixes the issue of the part still curling at the brim point (the point of a brim in the slicer is to have it easily removed).  Ive found this works very very well.

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## adamfilip

I noticed a weird thing when it was printing a brim and i paused it to check the gap and it was .3mm when i waited until it started printing the actual first layer of the part it was .2mm

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## usarmyaircav

I am going to try beerdarts idea of baby powder and lower bed temp tonight.

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## adamfilip

I dont get why babypowder?

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## beerdart

I used the powder to help release the part as im using a close first layer to prevent curling.

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## clough42

> So there are a ton of factors with warping.
> 
> 1. how close to the edge of the bed you print. (more warp)
> 2. How evenly the heat bed heats (check temps in corners vs center)
> 3. If its an enclosed environment to retain said heat.
> 4. Size of part - Larger parts will warp more.
> 5. Infill percentage of the part (more infill, more cooling plastic to pull on corners)
> 6. What you are using to adhere part to bed.
> 7. Temperature of the bed. 
> ...


Also the geometry of the part.  Parts with long, straight filament strands between 5 and 10mm up off the bed warp a lot as the long strands cool and pull on the corners.  Parts with holes that break up those long strands stay flatter.

Here's an example of a part (not mine) with holes that break up all of the long strands.

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## clough42

> My recent failure.. what a mess...anyone have any tips on how to remove plastic on the heater block and exterior of nozzle.
> after this. i sanded the PEI with 1000 grit , hoping for better results


Yeah.  Heat the hot end to temperature and wipe off the plastic with paper towels.  Use lots of layers so you don't burn yourself.  You can get it pretty clean this way.  If you really want it clean, you'll need to use acetone (for ABS).

DO NOT INTRODUCE ACETONE UNLESS THE HOT END IS COLD.

Just to be clear.  It'll work great hot, but it may remove more than just the plastic.  Like also your house.  Acetone is extremely flammable.

Incidentally, it can also melt your contact lenses.  This is also bad.

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## dunginhawk

I just got my heated bed thermistor in the mail and set it up... even a small 25mm test cube is peeling off in the corners at 60c... strange... it actually didnt peel at room temperature (pre heated bed)   with PEI (glossy side)
PS this is with PLA, not even ABS

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