# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > Peachy Printer Forum >  Hello--Beta Backer here. My 2 cents

## steadcraft

In a nutshell, as soon as Rylan knew something was fishy and he kept soliciting funds, he was pretty much an accomplice.

Beyond that, Peachy failed because they blew the rest of the money, which was multiples of what David Boe stole.

I've been writing about this a lot on my blog. So I'll just leave links to that.

http://diffendaffer.com/peachy-print...eresting-ride/

Thanks,
Grant Diffendaffer

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## cephdon

I don't think that's a fair assessment. I know lots of people lost money, myself included, but that's not an excuse to vilify Rylan.

His actions were based on legal advice at each step. The advice changed when new legal counsel was acquired. 

To make your argument stick, you need to show intent. Based on his actions, the intent does not appear to have been as you describe. If so, he didn't have to come forward at all.

The problem with this whole discussion is that a lot of people feel they are owed something. That's not true. Your money was an investment in technology development, pure and simple. Lots of companies go out of business or file bankruptcy because they couldn't make the idea work. 

Yeah, his partner stole funds and Rylan made lots of attempts to remedy the situation in ways that don't make sense to those of us looking back. If he had pulled it off, we would be celebrating a new printer and might never have known what happened. 

Arm chair quarterbacking doesn't make you an expert any more than it does me. We don't have the perspective he had at the time he had to make those choices. 

I would prefer to see development continue, than stagnate in self-pity and righteous indignation. 

@Rylan If you get your feet under you enough to keep the company going and want to finish certification, I don't mind chipping in more to help out. The amount lost was a pittance compared with the goals you set out to achieve and the potential it has.

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## steadcraft

> I don't think that's a fair assessment. I know lots of people lost money, myself included, but that's not an excuse to vilify Rylan.
> 
> His actions were based on legal advice at each step. The advice changed when new legal counsel was acquired. 
> 
> To make your argument stick, you need to show intent. Based on his actions, the intent does not appear to have been as you describe. If so, he didn't have to come forward at all.
> 
> The problem with this whole discussion is that a lot of people feel they are owed something. That's not true. Your money was an investment in technology development, pure and simple. Lots of companies go out of business or file bankruptcy because they couldn't make the idea work. 
> 
> Yeah, his partner stole funds and Rylan made lots of attempts to remedy the situation in ways that don't make sense to those of us looking back. If he had pulled it off, we would be celebrating a new printer and might never have known what happened. 
> ...


I've been doing my best to assess this situation fairly. The problem is that at this point we have nothing much to go on but Rylan's words and his credibility needs to be established by outside sources at this point. His account of affairs is emotionally compelling and makes sense on many levels. If you think I'm being unfair though then you probably aren't one of the people that "pre-ordered" when Peachy Printer announced that the "Peachy Printer Has Arrived!", or otherwise contributed to the campaign after the funds were plundered. I did. I watched development after Kickstarter until I was convinced that progress was being made and then threw down $600 after David Boe allegedly spent it all on the house.

A wise cowboy once said "do not attribute to incompetence what can more easily be explained by malice." I don't want to believe that Rylan was malicious or dishonest, but there are so many questions. Whether malicious or incompetent, the money is gone, and not to good result from what I can tell. This project could have been so much more transparent. Seriously--the "uncut print" video? Is that supposed to bring us back on board? Why were there so few print photos published all along? Why did we never see a print start to finish before? (Seriously Rylan--you didn't think the people that were 2 years late on receiving rewards for their million dollars were "interested"?)

Compile the history of this project and put it into a kickstarter video for a new project to fix this situation. Would you back it? There is part of me that still wants to believe but you better believe I'm once bitten twice shy. There are all kinds of reasons that projects like this fail. I have listened to as many as I can find. I find the support that Rylan got out of just releasing the uncut print video kind of heart warming but also a bit terrifying--as if the existence of some sort of prototype is all they need. I'm just sayin--y'all are about to start receiving a lot of email offers for stuff that sounds too good to be true (a.i. i.o.t. bridges in arkansas).

I don't need to prove Rylan's intentions to lose faith in his credibility. I'm sure not wallowing in anything--I'm trying to understand and I'm trying to help other people to do the same. I struggle to contain my anger in forums but I think I do a pretty good job by and large. I don't think I have to argue very hard to show that there are questions yet to be answered. It seems to me that you are taking a lot for granted. As far as I'm concerned, Rylan's story is a series of claims and allegations that will be either proven true or false over time. I'll reserve full judgement at least until after I hear the verdict of the legal system.

If you see a 3D printer, fine. So far I'm convinced that it meets the minimum standard to be a 2.5D printer. I'm not convinced funds were well managed. I'm not convinced it is making quality 3D prints. I want justice all around. I want honest hard working tinkerer inventors to succeed with their necessary ideas and I want to see a community of crowdfunding thrive. I wish Rylan well. Redemption for him would make me feel redeemed as well to some degree.

I think Rylan should just give us a video of the printer making a standard benchmark print. Uncut--start to finish. If lighting interferes with displaying detail at the end of the print--turn on the lights. Take the print off the printer and set it on the table. Leaving the camera on the tripod--zoom in for full detail. Focus to full depth of field. Pause--don't move the camera, don't move the focus or the zoom--just let it sit. Then show us how it gets removed from the screen and what the bottom looks like, Then take some high resolution photographs of the same model without bokeh effect--with crisp focus and full depth of field and post them for all to see. That process has been sorely lacking all along.

http://diffendaffer.com/peachy-print...-2-5d-printer/

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## quertz

Hey guys,

I also was kinda sad to see the bad news the last days and I'm not sure whether I'm willing to throw more money into this.
Seeing this new print was a good start to gain back trust.
Here are some things I would suggest for the next weeks:


Focus on the Hardware / Delivery process; Software can be easily Crowdsourced. I'm sure we have enough willing developers in the community (including myself)Do a quality test print, show the process (downloading model, slicing, calibrating and starting, sped up printing, finishing) (you may cut this video, speed it up etc; Just so after the cut you pick up where you left before  :Wink:  ) maybe spray paint it and document it the way you did with those other prints some time ago.Go through the parts (as you announced), this will make the current state a lot clearer to everyone.Show your plans on what is currently being done, how the resources are allocated, what the plans are (weekly?) (Maybe open a thread in the peachy forum for that topic to avoid flooding kickstarter with updates)

I'm really hoping this is something we can laugh about somewhen in the future.

Have a nice and motivated day,
Quertz

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## cephdon

@steadcraft

:-) I hope you recognize the irony here...

You claim to be the victim of fraud, essentially the same as Rylan. You express frustration and disappointment the same as Rylan. In fact, all of the distrust you spout towards Rylan can just as easily be said to you. Do you see that? 

You are a stranger on the Internet. You claim to have lost more than $600, but where is the proof? Any proof you can think of showing me, I can find a way to say you faked it. 

As far as I can tell, the only thing I know for sure is that you are using this moment to promote your blog. Probably because you either have advertising on it or because your selling something or both. That means you are not in a position to make impartial claims because it might not drive as many eyeballs to your site. 

Here is the big difference between you and Rylan though, you gain by claiming to be a victim where he loses. By admitting the situation, and subsequently releasing the repositories, he loses any advantage they might have provided. By association with the fraudulent individual, he loses trust and his brand and reputation are harmed. He gains nothing from the release of this information. You use it to promote your blog, which seemingly could provide financial gain. 

People so often get caught up in their emotions and in the moment that they begin pointing fingers at anyone and everyone. It's so easy to do, especially on the Internet. I don't expect that you will change your mind, but I do hope you appreciate the difference in perspective and how it can lead to various interpretations of motive.

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## steadcraft

> @steadcraft
> 
> :-) I hope you recognize the irony here...
> 
> You claim to be the victim of fraud, essentially the same as Rylan. You express frustration and disappointment the same as Rylan. In fact, all of the distrust you spout towards Rylan can just as easily be said to you. Do you see that? 
> 
> You are a stranger on the Internet. You claim to have lost more than $600, but where is the proof? Any proof you can think of showing me, I can find a way to say you faked it. 
> 
> As far as I can tell, the only thing I know for sure is that you are using this moment to promote your blog. Probably because you either have advertising on it or because your selling something or both. That means you are not in a position to make impartial claims because it might not drive as many eyeballs to your site. 
> ...


I'm an independent maker. I'm also a writer and an educator. I make an effort to understand the world around me and to share that with people. Rylan told us all last week that we are victims of fraud. That is not my claim. I would be all over the Kickstarter comments if I was a backer there and I would do the same if I was an indiegogo backer. As it happens, I backed on Backerkit, and my experience there exposes holes in that system. One of them being that there is no such comment forum. Another being that they have no legal definition of pre-order. We all learn from our experiences--and in different ways. I am engaging community because it is part of how I understand what has happened here. 

As far as who I am--I'm a real person with a website with my name on it that I built in like 1999. But I don't know who you are. I'm using my real name on the internet because I don't want to be an anonymous troll. I link to my website for the same reason. 

As far as Rylan's situation, it is sort of puzzling. But I don't really feel like speculating. I just don't feel like being very trusting. I'd like to hear David Boe's side of the story now. I'd like to see the legal authorities put together a clear picture. I really would like to just see the Peachy print an actual 3D model start to finish. I don't expect it to be perfect, but we keep hearing that it works.

I'd get over this if it was just a failed project--I'm a creator too and I understand the challenges. The thing that really gets me here is the crazy allegations and the emotional appeal for more funds. I've tried to be very balanced and explain why I have believed in Rylan and Peachy, as well as the facts that make me struggle to do so now. The last thing I would want to do is to undermine a project that I believed in by spreading misinformation. That is why I am sticking to questions regarding the facts. 

As far as that goes, I'd love to see some photos in the forum here from any Beta testers that successfully anything. As far as real people go, it would help me to believe them if they linked to their own professional website or social media page.

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## oninoshiko

> I'm an independent maker. I'm also a writer and an educator. I make an effort to understand the world around me and to share that with people. Rylan told us all last week that we are victims of fraud. That is not my claim. I would be all over the Kickstarter comments if I was a backer there and I would do the same if I was an indiegogo backer. As it happens, I backed on Backerkit, and my experience there exposes holes in that system. One of them being that there is no such comment forum. Another being that they have no legal definition of pre-order. We all learn from our experiences--and in different ways. I am engaging community because it is part of how I understand what has happened here. 
> 
> As far as who I am--I'm a real person with a website with my name on it that I built in like 1999. But I don't know who you are. I'm using my real name on the internet because I don't want to be an anonymous troll. I link to my website for the same reason. 
> 
> As far as Rylan's situation, it is sort of puzzling. But I don't really feel like speculating. I just don't feel like being very trusting. I'd like to hear David Boe's side of the story now. I'd like to see the legal authorities put together a clear picture. I really would like to just see the Peachy print an actual 3D model start to finish. I don't expect it to be perfect, but we keep hearing that it works.
> 
> I'd get over this if it was just a failed project--I'm a creator too and I understand the challenges. The thing that really gets me here is the crazy allegations and the emotional appeal for more funds. I've tried to be very balanced and explain why I have believed in Rylan and Peachy, as well as the facts that make me struggle to do so now. The last thing I would want to do is to undermine a project that I believed in by spreading misinformation. That is why I am sticking to questions regarding the facts. 
> 
> As far as that goes, I'd love to see some photos in the forum here from any Beta testers that successfully anything. As far as real people go, it would help me to believe them if they linked to their own professional website or social media page.


Why are you still saying "I really would like to just see the Peachy print an actual 3D model start to finish"? That's been posted. It's not even timelapsed, so it's a little boring of a 19min video. There have also been numerous timelapse videos they've posted. At this point, I literally cannot understand how you can post that complaint.

I haven't seen Rylan appeal for more funds. I've seen BACKERS trying to raise more funds to get the certification done and the kit out the door, but that's not Rylan. I haven't seen him address those people one way or the other.

You may be sticking to the questions, but you're just repeating them when you get answers.

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## steadcraft

> Why are you still saying "I really would like to just see the Peachy print an actual 3D model start to finish"? That's been posted. It's not even timelapsed, so it's a little boring of a 19min video. There have also been numerous timelapse videos they've posted. At this point, I literally cannot understand how you can post that complaint.
> 
> I haven't seen Rylan appeal for more funds. I've seen BACKERS trying to raise more funds to get the certification done and the kit out the door, but that's not Rylan. I haven't seen him address those people one way or the other.
> 
> You may be sticking to the questions, but you're just repeating them when you get answers.


If you didn't notice, Big Bad News was a fundraising video. There was even an attached survey describing crowdfunding choices.

This is why I say that I would like to see it print an actual 3D model: http://diffendaffer.com/peachy-print...-2-5d-printer/

If you can link me to a time lapse that shows the whole device in action as well as quality photos of the print object I'd be very interested.

I've said it before and I'll say again that I believed in Peachy--I think it's a cool idea. I'd like to see it succeed. I've watched them raise a lot of funding after so much of their money disappeared. I'd like to see those mistakes avoided in the future.

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## steadcraft

> If you didn't notice, Big Bad News was a fundraising video. There was even an attached survey describing crowdfunding choices.
> 
> This is why I say that I would like to see it print an actual 3D model: http://diffendaffer.com/peachy-print...-2-5d-printer/
> 
> If you can link me to a time lapse that shows the whole device in action as well as quality photos of the print object I'd be very interested.
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say again that I believed in Peachy--I think it's a cool idea. I'd like to see it succeed. I've watched them raise a lot of funding after so much of their money disappeared. I'd like to see those mistakes avoided in the future.


Again to clarify my position. I'm not criticizing the Peachy because it is not a B9 Creator or something. I never expected that. I knew we might get stuck with a 2.5D printer and I figured at least that was a step up from 2D. It sounds like there has been a ton of development and I have been excited for some time to see it actually produce some of the more complex (if not perfect) prints we have seen published from Peachy. All i've seen of the good stuff though is edited enough that I can't really tell what is going on. 
Basically, all of the updates we have seen are easily viewed as fundraising videos in light of the explanation we have seen of finances. Considering that Peachy really needs community buy in now, it is hard to see the "uncut video" otherwise. If Rylan would just post a video of the V1 printing a 3D model of a standard benchmark print I might feel differently. He can explain exactly what pains he took to calibrate it, how we might improve on the design, exactly how it works in concert with software, and then let it print. Then he doesn't have to explain how well it prints or where the failures are. Just let us all see for ourselves.
I'm not here to criticize the printer in its state of development. I just want to see clearly what that is because it is obvious that this project needs a lot more money and effort to come to completion. I'm just asking for transparency.

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## oninoshiko

Update #51 includes about a minute's worth of time-lapsed 3d prints (a few models of varying complexity). A number of other videos on their channel also include timelapses. The complaint I always saw was that they could have somehow cheated, but between an unedited video (which had to be fairly simple, because the goal as an unedited video and anything more complex would have also been much longer), and the more complex time-lapse videos, I think we can say the thing works reasonably. I would like to be able to show some time-lapes of prints made by backers, unfortunately so few backers actually got units (and the ones that did appear to mostly be the non-usb version) that there aren't a lot of videos.

As we get the open-source version made, hopefully we can resolve that problem of not having videos from 3rd parties.

The problem I have here is you and others say you want an unedited video to prove it works. He makes an unedited video that proves it works, and now you're claiming that it doesn't count because it wasn't the object you wanted. That's moving the goalposts, and makes it hard for me to accept that anything they show you will ever appease you.

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## steadcraft

> Update #51 includes about a minute's worth of time-lapsed 3d prints (a few models of varying complexity). A number of other videos on their channel also include timelapses. The complaint I always saw was that they could have somehow cheated, but between an unedited video (which had to be fairly simple, because the goal as an unedited video and anything more complex would have also been much longer), and the more complex time-lapse videos, I think we can say the thing works reasonably. I would like to be able to show some time-lapes of prints made by backers, unfortunately so few backers actually got units (and the ones that did appear to mostly be the non-usb version) that there aren't a lot of videos.
> 
> As we get the open-source version made, hopefully we can resolve that problem of not having videos from 3rd parties.
> 
> The problem I have here is you and others say you want an unedited video to prove it works. He makes an unedited video that proves it works, and now you're claiming that it doesn't count because it wasn't the object you wanted. That's moving the goalposts, and makes it hard for me to accept that anything they show you will ever appease you.


Thanks for trying to understand my point of view. That is indeed a good video and it does appear to show the Peachy properly functioning--but I still want to see a shot of the hardware actually in action with clear focus on the results and a description of the design choices incorporated into V1. Nothing is going to convince me it is worth shipping more than forthright discussion of it's shortcomings by the maker. It just needs to demonstrate that it is slicing an .stl or .obj file and then sending different instructions for every layer. I would be surprised if it didn't actually work given what we have been shown and told. That is why I find it surprising that we got such a lame demo as "proof."

I am pleased to note that the prints shown here are not perfect--it makes them believable, but I want to see the actual hardware producing them and then be able to clearly see strengths and weaknesses of the print.

I'm glad to see Rylan making an effort to see this project into the hands of people who would carry it on. I have bad feelings but I'm willing to set them aside and look at this in problem solving fashion. I appreciate that the impetus of "what next" with this project is coming from backers. The project has been sorely lacking community input, as anybody who was a beta tester can attribute. I don't think I saw a single print from a tester in that forum. It does seem that this has galvanized some community involvement. Hopefully, having a crowd of people actually able to access the source designs for this will move it forward more quickly now.

Whether or not the actual kits ever get distributed from Peachy, if it is worth building, then someone will be offering kits before long. I would like to see someone buy the company and assume the responsibility of distributing the promised kits. That may not be likely, as there seem to be more parts to buy than there are in inventory, and now that the technology is open source, the company's value is in the inventory and the brand--which has taken a hit.

If, however, Rylan is willing to commit himself to a project funded by someone else, in order to assure transfer of knowledge and competitive advantage over anyone willing to just stock and ship the BOM, then that might be of greater value. The parts can be manufactured and shipped by anyone willing (including Rylan) to build sweat equity in the company. 

It is hard to see much money in R&D now that it is open source, but an improved V2 that built on a year or more open source development is a possibility and could help sustain the company. 

I have been calling for others to help tell this story, and I'm glad to see the latest post on the Kickstarter page by Andrew Trapp. I'm not sure who he is, but at least he has a Kickstarter profile, and is obviously a backer. I'll post the whole thing here, but say for starters, that it is first of all his vetting of the character of Rylan (and Nathan) that I appreciate. I want to keep hearing that from every angle. 

Additionally, I agree wholeheartedly with Trapp's request to just leave crowdfunding out of the solution. Do not look for a way out of this that depends of the goodwill of the public and not guarantee a return. I do not want to see the company sell off existing inventory, as he suggests, before rewarding backers. However, unless somebody puts up the cash, there may not be any other way to raise it.

I'm also glad to hear that legal and collection actions are pursuing and look forward to seeing how those are resolved. Anyway, here is what Trapp said:
"I had the unexpected pleasure of meeting with Rylan and Nathan two days ago and would like to add my comments to the rest of the backers.
First and possibly most importantly is Rylan's and Nathan's character - these two gentlemen are passionate, honest, and exhibit integrity. Both are remorseful of the situation, and are now only interested in getting what they have developed to this point out. They recognize that the most important lesson from this was not the missmanagement of money or the folly of trusting David, but saying "good enough." Obviously there was a lot of lessons learned, but they are clear on the resolution.
Second, I have held multiple prints from their machine and am thoroughly impressed regardless of the price, the prints developed are so close to being able to cast without any sanding. The printer is real, functional, and has very good resolution.
Third, just to answer some of the thoughts going around: regarding the laser certificates - it is not the laser that odd is the issue, it is the laser control board which also need the certificate. Without the certificate, the board cannot be imported into several countries; all they could ship would be the non-electrical stuff. Regarding legal issues - I cannot speak to specifics, but legal action is under way and methods to secure the money have also been initiated. Regarding the wages - people were employed by the funds, full-time, yes it was put down as wages, but it was all for r&d. A more accurate portrayal of the pie charts would be to change the wages to r&d, it isn't like they they paid themselves to do pr, marketing, or even sales; they have had one goal since this was known, to get a high quality product to the backers and make good on the promise.
Fourth, as a baker, I have waited as long everybody else for something. It has been three years and I'm at the point of getting something is better than nothing. If that means peachy sells their inventory to brand new people in order to eventually, one day, fill my order...screw the principle of being one of the first owners of a peachy printer because I gave money early, I just want one.
That is my vote, not to crowd source more money, sell what you have at a profit to purchase more materials and repeat until everybody gets what is owed.
I believe in the peachy team!"

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