# Specific 3D Printers, Scanners, & Hardware > Pegasus Touch Laser SLA Printer Forum >  Pegasus PDMS replacement

## fred_dot_u

Typical of my current state of alleged mind, I cannot provide the source of this information. I have read recently of a product called Breakable Glass Silicone Rubber: 
http://www.barnes.com.au/addition-curing-silicone/breakable-glass-1573

The information I read indicates that a vat coated with this material is transparent (glass!) and works with SLA type printers. The parts I can remember include easier release of the model (no sticking!) and long life. I believe the person who is using is reports five weeks of steady use and only a slight clouding.

It would appear that the person reporting this information is a resident of the land down under. Unfortunately, it also appears that the product is unavailable to be shipped to the US. The AUD 70 price translates to US$52 and change. I feel this material would have great value for our printer owner membership.

Is there anyone on this forum who is from Australia and would be willing to manage a bulk shipment if the interest is high enough?

As a direct connection to the above, how many here are interested in the product? I am considering to purchase a large quantity and then parcel it to the interested parties. I would be the one to risk my funds based on the response here and would expect to have the shipping paid for Australia to USA and internally to the United States, but I'm not aiming to make a profit.

If anyone has suggestions for other forums in which to post this suggestion/request, please post here as well.

thanks
fred

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## doobie

Sounds possibly interesting...glad to hear someone is saying it is in use...I would have been worried about this: "Demould within the hour after mixing to prevent crumbling upon demoulding."

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## fred_dot_u

I'm certain that is because the "normal" use of the product is to create a facsimile of glass. If this material is poured into a mold and allowed to set for an excessive period, it becomes brittle like glass. For our purposes, we would be "molding" it into the vat and would not demold it until it was time to replace it.

In the interim, I recall where I saw the original reference. It is on the "official" FSL mailing list/forum, but there's no encouraging information for the US users there either.

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## fred_dot_u

An update on the special stuff!  I've found a web site in the land down under that lists USA shipping, although with a huge shipping cost. The stuff is $79.95 a kilogram, which would probably last a year or two, from what I've read, with a $42.55 shipping cost. The total cost of $122.50 per kilo goes down to $101.34 per kilo if ten kilograms is ordered. If ten people wanted to order the stuff, I could place a bulk purchase, but then it would have to have shipping added from me to them, a minimum of eleven dollars for USPS flat-rate boxes. even then, that's $112.34 per kilo, about a ten dollar savings.

The likelihood of nine other people sending me a message for this material is slight, but I'm going to make a post to the other forum when I get another email from the list. We'll see what happens.

It's looking more and more likely that I'll be motivated to get my Pegasus up and running before Christmas!

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## chooch

I'm interested in trying Teflon AF 2400 which is a super oxygen permeable material... It's apparently what Carbon 3D uses and patented in their CLIP type printers.  However, it's very expensive, 100ml 1% solution for around $450, which i don't think can be used and then 25 gram quantities of the resin in the few thousand range.

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## fred_dot_u

Wow! Expensive barely describes the price.

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## chooch

> Wow! Expensive barely describes the price.


LOL yeah.   Also trying to figure out what NewPro3D's patented tech is about and Nexa NX1 printer... supposedly both game changing materials better than even CLIP.

So far I've found that they call it Lubricant Sublayer Photocuring.

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## chooch

I think I may have stumbled upon it from there info graphic: http://www.nexa3d.com/lspc-technology/

clear silicone oil must be what they use... it will still bind with oxygen keeping the band gap so resin won't cure to the tank.

I just so happen to have some clear silicone oil laying around.... hmmmm

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## chooch

Well that was a quick test... I used 40 weight clear silicone oil put it in a tiny clear spoon then put a few drops of resin on top.

First thing I noticed, the resin was more dense so it sank to the bottom of the spoon.

Then I took it outside for curing and it cured within seconds.

So that's not the wonder material.  :Frown: 

Tried it on some PDMS too, no appreciably difference in regular PDMS and silicone impregnated. They both seamed to release with ease. 

So we need to find something cheap, clear, more dense than resin and oxygen permeable.

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## fred_dot_u

I chased a few of the links from the site you provided. Three 0.75 liter resin container and three self-lubricating films for three hundred euros. Resin is clearly a consumable, but the self-lubricating film, quantity three also sounds like it's not everlasting.

There are other SLA and DLP type printers "out there" that use saline solution as the release agent. More accurately, of course, the carrier, as it never has to release during the creation. Most of the saline types I've seen are bottom up builders, while the Nexa appear bottom down (upside down) builders.

If/when I receive the breakable glass from the land down under, I'll have material to test. Cheap at first, no, but long life makes lower cost overall. Of course, it would be even better to have a printer ready to accept the stuff. The two resin printers I have are yet in the original boxes. My reading of these printers was so demoralizing that I originally planned to sell them in as-new condition and take a loss. With the breakable glass possibility, the printer may become a viable working device.

With your work as well, it becomes (or will become) even more flexible.

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## chooch

I may have figured something out...3dp_resin_suspended2.jpg

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## fred_dot_u

Is that a preview image from Ghostbusters new movie?

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## chooch

No, that picture doesn't look as terrible as that movie.

It's 3D print resin suspended on a lubricant.

However, it eventually separated the resin into two parts and majority of it went under the clear lubricant. ugh.

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## curious aardvark

> My reading of these printers was so demoralizing that I originally planned to sell them in as-new condition and take a loss.


So you haven't even tried printing anything ? 

You do know that a lot of negative 3d printer reviews are down to the general incompetence of the end user and often nothing to do with the machines themselves.

It seems weird to me that you're spending money on a vat lining BEFORE printing something without one. 
You might not need one :-) 
How can you know unless you try ?

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## fred_dot_u

it's a complex situation, but I'm hopeful by christmas I'll have the printer up and running for practical testing.
I often believe that some of the negative reviews are unfounded. It's sometimes easy to determine that from the report itself. I have learned quite a bit from the posts that make me hopeful to have as few problems as possible when the printer comes out of the box.

Regarding not needing a vat liner: every post from the successful operators indicate that the "standard" PDMS will fog quickly and for some people, it will tear. I have learned that I will have, in advance, a flat build plate as well as a level build plate, to resolve many problems associated with the reverse. I have already shipped my printer to FSL and had it returned with all the improvements created since it was first shipped. There's a plus right there.

I lack operational space and currently have poor environmental conditions to expect good results.

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## chooch

I'd whip out the printer and start using it, there is a learning curve to it, but you'll figure it all out in time. It is capable of doing amazing prints once you figure it all out, it's just that it is it not user friendly and take a lot of patience.

Meanwhile... I found something that has a much higher density than 3D print resin on my 3rd attempt.

3DP-3.jpg

I may start experimenting tonight. If there is no peeling, well this printer will get a whole lot more reliable or at least that's the goal.

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## doobie

That's really cool if you can use a liquid for a base material in the VAT that wouldn't mix with the resin or interfere with the build plate.  It might have issues separating out later or due to evaporation and the level lowering needing a new starting point for the base, of course we could easily expose the first layer more so that it would just solidify more for the first layer on the base plate.

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## fred_dot_u

The peachy printer, not yet in production, purports to use saline solution to float the resin for a bottom up build. With the pegasus, having the resin float to enable easier release would certainly reduce the amount of flotation liquid required. If it's higher density than the resin, I would not expect too much evaporation. Contamination of each layer would be a valid consideration in the pegasus.

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## fred_dot_u

I think I got that wrong. If the device starts at the bottom, but each layer is added above that, is it a bottom up build? I think there are so many different build methods that the terminology may be insufficient to describe in a few words.

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## doobie

That's a pretty cool way to print, moving the build plate down and building on top, but I wonder how you ensure you have exactly the right amount of material still on top?  There are lots of variables, including expansion/contraction of resin, axis, etc.

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## fred_dot_u

The peachy printer doesn't move the build plate, if my understanding is correct. The saline level is increased as the print continues. There must also be some method to dispense an accurate amount of resin to compensate for the resin used and the desired layer thickness.

I agree about the uncertainty involved in the method. I believe it counts drops of saline that pass through a set of electrical contacts. I recognize that one can have accurate measurement to very high tolerances with drops, but I suspect that conditions have to be very carefully controlled to accomplish that. Evaporation, saline concentration, temperature, the relative humidity of the surroundings, all these are likely to be important. How important, only time will tell. My neighbor has contributed to the Kickstarter campaign, and I'm certain to learn when/if he receives his printer

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## chooch

Well, I was thinking about still doing a bottom up approach with this. However, I think it needs something to control thickness in some patents they use a "wettable membrane" That's probably something that holds the more dense fluid in place. As when I put it on pdms it doesn't spread and cover evenly across the surface area.

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## Braddock

I can confirm that Barnes Breakable Glass silicon is a perfect alternative to Sylgard / PDMS

I printed this last night... no issues.

IMG_0867.jpg

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## doobie

Where did you pick up the Barnes Breakable Glass?  are you down under or did you fork over the $$$ for shipping or did you find a local supplier?

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## chooch

> I can confirm that Barnes Breakable Glass silicon is a perfect alternative to Sylgard / PDMS
> 
> I printed this last night... no issues.


Hey Paul, glad to see you on here. I'd be interested to see how resistant the Barnes material is to ghosting. If it is better than PDMS, I may have to give it a shot.

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## fred_dot_u

I'm not sure to whom you are asking about the Barnes Breakable Glass, but I ordered mine from Aldax in the land down under, 4 kg to have a huge reserve, and paid the US$$$$ to have it shipped. Conveniently, the US$ is a bit more valuable than the AU$ by a fair amount.

From what I've been reading, cooch, there are some B9C users who have had no clarity problems over three weeks of daily use. That alone is worthwhile, but they also report that each layer releases far more easily than PDMS.

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## Braddock

sorry I've been off the board for ages. 

I find the barnes stuff still fogs, but re-coating isnt a big deal, it's easy to mix, and I just let it set over night.

I'd say the B9 guys get less fogging for 2 reasons, one possibly that an SLA laser degrades silicone faster, but also, the B9 has a small build volume, most guys I know using them are only printing small stuff, so less layers, less foggging




> I'm not sure to whom you are asking about the Barnes Breakable Glass, but I ordered mine from Aldax in the land down under, 4 kg to have a huge reserve, and paid the US$$$$ to have it shipped. Conveniently, the US$ is a bit more valuable than the AU$ by a fair amount.
> 
> From what I've been reading, cooch, there are some B9C users who have had no clarity problems over three weeks of daily use. That alone is worthwhile, but they also report that each layer releases far more easily than PDMS.

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