help me decide: rep2 or 2x?

[hobbes]

Hi guys,

new to the forum

little bit of about me (skip ahead if you don't give a rats patootie):
been playing around and following 3d printing technology for a couple of years now.
At my last job there was an eden printer, my first experience with 3dprinting. Loved the results, hated the maintenance. All printing was done inside a supportive gel (which smelled like cherries...was really hard to not think about eating it...) which meant a really nice finish over the entire printed part.
Last year i purchased a rep2 to play with. It seemed like the best choice, and was available at a local microsoft store. I was really happy with it, it was very easy to learn and although i went through a learning process and plenty of failed prints, i eventually figured out the appropriate parameters to my needs and got plenty of satisfactory print jobs done.
I returned the Rep2 after 2 weeks. Nothing was wrong with it, but i needed the money, and I had planned to return it from the very beginning, since it was just a trial. Besides, I was kind of set on the 2X for the dual extrusion and ABS filmanent.

So, why am i here?
Sometime in the near future i'm going to purchase a 3dprinter (for keepsies, not returnsies). I really liked my experience with the Replicator 2, so i'd like to stick with this brand. I have read plenty on the 5th generation to know that i shouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole. So the question is: Replicator 2 or 2x? I have read up on both and i'm leaning towards the 2x but i'm still not sure what best suits my needs, so i need a more experienced user to push me in the right direction.

My 3d printer need priorities, in descending order of importance:

1) resolution detail - more...MORE...MORE!!!!
2) ease of cleanup/support removal - would like to make molds and cast some of my prints.
3) mechanical properties - strength/durability - i'd like to make things that move, have gears, or levers.
4) ease of finishing: machining, sanding, painting

What makes me think the Replicator 2 is the right choice (and please correct me if i've mistaken on any of these points):

DETAIL
From what i've read, PLA can achieve sharper edges, and the Replicator 2 has a tendency to sag less on bridged components due to its fans. I know you can upgrade the 2x with fans to allow it to use PLA, but i wouldn't trust myself to do that while the machine is still new.

LESS PARTS = LESS MAINTENANCE
2 extruders means twice the chance that something can go wrong. In the 2 weeks with my Replicator 2 (printing about 8-12 hours per day), i can't recall any significant issue, but of course there's been down time here and there relating to the extruder. A 2X would mean double trouble.

DO I REALLY NEED DUAL EXTRUSION?
The biggest thing that attracted me the 2X is the fact that you can load the second extruder with a dissolvable filament. I know that most of my prints will be toy car bodies and chassis that would then be molded and casted, so it's important to have a clean underside to my prints. Making the supports in this material would really ease the cleaning process...or would it? I didn't find as much information on the web as i'd like regarding this filament, and i'm not sure how well it would suit my purpose. I really don't care about mixing filaments of different colors, except maybe for some glow in the dark parts.

What makes me think the Replicator 2X is the right choice:

DISSOLVABLE SUPPORTS
As mentioned above, this would be a real plus to my plans if it works as i imagine it to work.

ABS
Not so much a necessity, actually: I'm satisfied with my PLA prints but, on a more mechanical aspect, ABS seems more fun. Also, the whole acetone vapor thing looks really intriguing.

UPGRADEABILITY?
This one i'm not too sure about, but it seems to me that it would be easier to upgrade the 2X with fans to support PLA, than to upgrade a REP2 to support other materials.

What exactly do i plan to print??

this

(pardon size of pictures...i actually thought i reduced them more before upload)
the orange parts were made on a Replicator 2, the little white car on a friends ultimaker.

car bodies

On the left in white you see plastic injected car bodies, on the right 3d printed ones. Wall thickness is about 1.5mm to 2mm.
These toy cars are the scale i'll be mostly working with (about 100mm long), and i'd like to come as close as possible to match the plastic injected car's detail size/resolution.

Support removal

quite a pain to remove on the inside of the body, honestly. Alternatively i could split the body in a few parts, reduce the supports this way, and glue it together for molding, but i still would prefer to print the part in full, since it would be stronger this way and usable on my little race cars (which can run up to 40mph).

sanding

comparison of an unsanded and sanded body shells. I really didn't have that much trouble sanding pla, but from what i've read, ABS would be easier to sand/machine.

wing

Would be nice if the makerbot application would at least let you modify the shape and amount of supports in an area...

more details!!!

i'm aiming for a little bit more detail than this. I'm actually surprised that the ol' ultimaker picked up those grooves, but i would definitely like them to be sharper.

more than meets the eye

yup, he's a transformer...
Again, the ultimaker surprised me with its accuracy. Very little fidgeting and X-acto-knifing to get these parts to fit. Missing some details in the robot face and fist, which i'm hoping a properly tuned replicator 2 or 2X could do.
The orange parts were made a year ago, this little white guy (that's not racist!) was made this Christmas, when i forced my friend to bring his ultimaker over.

IN SUMMARY:
Should i get a Rep2 or 2X???

Thank you for your help, and sorry for the long post.

Merry belated Christmas and happy new year.

[drop.alot]

I Started My self with Rep. 2x. And I had some trouble with the warping with big prints.
But after I figured it out. I haven't had the big Issues with the 2x.

As you mention yourself about removing the support and raft material for PLA, it's a hell.
But For the 2x, it is much easer to remove and you use sand paper to remove the last layer of support.

[wpilgrim]

Rep 2 user here. Prepare for an impending wall of text… sorry if its TMI

TL;DR version? You need a Resin printer, but if not, although I love my rep 2, both the rep 2 and 2x are great machines, are close in quality and key things are going to come down to your own personal preferences in regards to your use in application. I think they are a wash one is close to on par with the other and therefore having a rep 2 and having tweaked it to perfection I would likely buy another rep 2 if I was faced with that decision.

My immediate first impression on a recommendation is to throw you out of the FDM style printer market and have you start looking at A DLP or SLA style printer, aka a resin printer.

I’ll get to your points below but before I do I’ll just back up my plug for the resin printers.

RESIN PRINTER
You sound like you are wanting some very fine details out of your prints, in particular when you mention the lines and the facial features. What you are seeing on those small cars and transformer bodies with the ultimaker is about as good as you will ever get your Makerbot to perform (if that). With an FDM style printer there is a limit to the detail that can be achieved and these printers are right at that limit. Printing at layer heights of 1 micron with a finely tuned machine will churn out some great parts but some details just aren’t going to pop like a molded part, plus you will ALWAYS see layer lines that must be sanded down. I know Makerbot advertises inadvertently that “someone here has their printer tuned to hit .4 microns and it’s amazing” while that may be true, I have read and been told that line so many times that it almost seems fictional to me at this point and it quite certainly isn’t very feasible with the machines they have provided.

With a resin style printer the lines are much smoother if visible and the details are incredible. You do lose some strength properties and the resin is more expensive than filament, but for details it just cannot be matched by a FDM printer (I have studied, followed, ordered samples and am about to purchase a resin printer) Some ones to check out are, Kudo3d’s Titan 1, FSL’s Pegasus touch, certainly Form labs Form 1+, with a couple other new ones See me CNC droplit, and a promising up and comer the LittleRP.

Anyway now onto the 2 vs 2X

DETAIL
I won’t talk much about detail other than both printers can hit relatively the same level of detail, but each have intricacies and quirks that must be learned and adjusted for. ABS tends to warp and want to have layer separation more so than PLA and thus requires heated enclosure and heated bed whereas PLA requires a fan to cool the filament. While you may see some difference in detail back and forth for the most part I think it’s going to be a wash if you get either one running nicely.
IT's A WASH

DUAL EXTRUSION
At first I thought this would be awesome, and certainly from time to time it would have come in handy, however I think it would have been a pricey “upgrade” that I would have rarely used. The dissolvable supports sound awesome however, but like you I couldn’t really find anyone that uses it for that purpose and one thing that does come to mind, is FDM style parts are porous and I have on occasion dunked parts or left them in water for various reasons. Getting all the water out of those parts is probably never going to happen, even if it’s a miniscule amount and I wouldn't want that to happen on some of my parts, and quite frankly for some of my projects it would be more than unacceptable. (however your parts look to be single wall thicknesses so that may not be an issue for your purposes). I have also heard that leveling, or in particular getting the nozzles at the perfectly same height after maintenance can be a beast (and having close to 1000 hours on my machine I can tell you, that you will be performing maintenance on it). It comes down to one thing for me, if the dissolvable support works well then 2X would win it, if not then dual extrusion isn’t worth the hassle.

MATERIAL PROPERTIES
ABS VS PLA. Both are pretty nice materials. PLA is incredibly strong for extruded plastic and I have been quite happy with the results. PLA doesn’t have as much “give” as ABS as in if you had two parts side by side, PLA would tend to deform or bend a bit more than ABS would, and with extreme force PLA should tend to snap first. When I first bought my rep 2 I thought this was going to be a major downside for me, however I haven’t been the least bit disappointed in any of the applications I have made part for all in PLA. I work as a Mechanical engineer and have made parts for fun and for function I have even tapped holes and screwed into the PLA perfectly well. I don’t think you will be disappointed with PLA. However like you ABS has the acetone vapor going for it and finishing of these parts is certainly an issue (see first paragraph plugging sla) which the vapor would help in, but I think you might find that again with the details you are looking for the vapor might blow some of those details out. (maybe) Sanding both materials is easy and both accept paints fairly well (hand painting, use acrylic, if spray painting, using a layer of FUSION spray makes for a good first layer to adhere additional paint on.) PERSONAL PREFERENCE COMES IN HERE Just depends what you hold important

A couple more points to make a long post even longer…

You commented on how you wish you could do something about altering supports, SIMPLIFY3D allows you to control A LOT when it comes to slicing, printing and supports. Its secondary software that may be of interest to you.

Do note that the REP 2 is discontinued and I am certainly feeling the drop in support from Makerbot, so acquiring a rep 2 may be difficult and you may have to purchase a used one that may or may not have issues with it. Rep 2X is still going strong so you can still buy one from Makerbot and still feasibly should get support (although I think we all know Makerbot support is shite.) So there is that. You may even consider purchasing a MB clone, Save some dough and get all the features of the MB 2 or 2X. I am a member of Makerbot Users Google group, and one of the main users that has extensive knowledge in MB printers fully backs the Wanhao Duplicator 4. Major supporter and he has some great information on that group about why you should purchase one of those printers over an overpriced MB. (remember that I have a rep 2 not a duplicator but I possibly would have purchased one if I had known beforehand)

And one last thing, If you get either a 2 or a 2x or a duplicator for that matter, there are multiple upgrades that you can do to the printer to fine tune it, I have compiled a list that is on another site that I can share with you if you are interested.

Best of luck.