First 3D Printer - Some questions unanswered after lengthy research

Hello, guys.

I am new to 3D printers but am quite eager to get into it. I like to think of my self as keen outdoors man and enthusiast in many areas and self-design and customisation are fields definitely up my alley. That being said, I still have a number of questions that stand unanswered concerning my first 3D printer even after the bunch of resources I read.

The first thing that I'd like someone to clarify to me is how hard is the assembling of a DIY kit. I'm more inclined towards a kit rather than pre-assembled printer because based on what I read this would get me more acquainted with the unit and its processes. I google'd and youtube'd and based on what I found it doesn't seem overly complex as long as I follow the guidelines closely. Regardless, I'd like the opinion of someone who has actually gone through the process.

Cheers, Doc.

Unfortunately the answer is "it depends". It depends on the quality of the kit as well as your own ability and patience. I've assembled a number of different printers... some were incredibly easy, others frustratingly difficult... the difficult ones particularly because the parts were substandard or missing. As long as you're not in an incredible rush to to using your printer, given enough time you should triumph eventually. GOOD LUCK!

Hi

I've built several kits and they all have been drop dead easy to do. Getting everything aligned and working right takes a bit, but none of the work is hard or crazy techno babble intensive. Figure you are spending a month of your time to really understand how your printer works. Unless you go to some pretty expensive gear, the results from a properly assembled kit are very hard to beat.

More or less:

Pick out a kit from a good outfit with good support. (Or plan on a lot more work).

Get the kit and set aside an area to do the assembly

Read through all the instructions, and look at all the parts. Don't put any together, just understand what's what.

Start the build and get a chunk done at a time. Don't stop in the middle of an assembly.

Once the mechanicals are together, make sure everything moves without binding.

Get the electronics wired up and run through the basic checks. Plan on finding wires that are backwards ...

Once the basics are done and checked, do a print. See how it looks.

(from here on, most of this is true for any printer you get)

Start learning how the various pieces of software work and how they relate to each other

Calibrate the software to your printer

Check your prints and adjust your settings

Print up some optional bits and pieces to customize the printer for your use

Check the printer occasionally to make sure something has not come loose

Go back in about two weeks and re-do the final build adjustment steps after the machine has run in

Loop back through the calibration and adjustment process each time you go to a different type of filament.

None of it is rocket science. It's not like building a lathe from scratch. You do need to pay attention to what you are doing. The result will only be as good as the care you take during the build.

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Pick out a kit from a good outfit with good support. (Or plan on a lot more work).

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This is what I have in mind after the research I did - http://prusaprinters.org/prusa-i3/

I would appreciate thoughts on this particular setup. (I'm going for the kit, not for the pre-assembled variant.)

Another thing I'd like to ask is what's the deal with hacking (not sure what, actually) and printing upgrade parts by the printer for the printer.

Doc

Hi

For the same money:

http://www.makerfarm.com/index.php/3...gasus-kit.html

Gives you a much sturdier printer with a much larger build area. I went through the "printed parts in the main part of the printer" thing a few kits back. Metal is a better material to use. Will the i3 print great prints? Sure it will. Can you build one at home? A *LOT* of people have done so with very little trouble. That design has been around for a lot of years (in printer years ..). My main objection is that you can get a better machine (with very good support) for the same money.

Bob

I was indeed just looking at this specific one, but I have the following issue - I live in Europe. However, currently I'm in the USA and will be here for another month. The i3 ships in Europe, but MakerFarm doesn't (unless for a handsome fee). The shipping rate for the 12'' Pegasus will be $170 for regular and $190 for Express mail.

I could buy it while I'm here, in the US, but what about parts and support given I'm actually going to use it overseas?

The big question is will the i3 be the better solution for an Europe stationed hobbyist or the 12'' Pegasus will be the smarter choice in the long run?

Hi

I've used MakerFarm support pretty much 24 hours a day. I have no idea how they do it. Most of what you ask about will be via email. That works from anywhere and costs nothing. Parts wise, all these printers are made from generic "stuff". It's metric nuts, bolts and washers. You actually have a better chance finding a missing nut at the local store in Europe than you do here.

Even *with* the shipping cost, its by far the better printer. Shipping cross country cost me about 2/3 of that for my Pegasus plus another printer. Getting it to Europe for $180 actually does not sound all that bad ....

Bob

For the sake of the discussion - besides Pegasus what other printer would you recommend?

Hi

It depends a lot on what you are after. There are a number of kits from China that will save you some money. They also come with a bit more hassle. There are non-kits that run up to the $3K range, if cost is not an issue. This started out with a "can I really build this" question. I'm hesitant to recommend the China kits.The Wanhao seems to have a pretty good following if you go that way. Shipping from the US seems to be an issue, that shifts it over to European sourced kits. That's not an area I have seen a lot of kits from. Sorry about that....If you go into the $2K and up non-kit arena, the question quickly becomes "Forum 2 or something else". It's not quite that simple, but you do have the option of a SLA printer rather than a filament printer. There is not denying they make some nice prints (and expensive !!).

Bob

Your reply makes me think that alternative to what we have discussed so far is not a viable option, so I'm going to stay away from it.

Currently I'm on MakerFarm's website and I'm looking at the Pegasus. I see Extruder options. I'd like to go for a dual extruder, as it gives more options, but I'm not aware of the difference between "e3d-Lite6 hotend" and "e3d-v6 hotend."

Another question I have is how "susceptible" (for lack of better word from the top of my head) is the Pegasus to hacking and me printing parts for the printer itself?
1) I don't know what hacking in terms of 3D printers means but I have seen it during my research.
2) You were perfectly clear that plastic parts are not as reliable as metal parts.

Doc

Hi

The e3d hot end comes from the UK. Yet another part that is easier to source in Europe. The e3d lite will do a limited range of temperatures and thus a limited range of filaments. I would go with the e3d-V6 full up hot end before I went for the dual extruder. It is a fun option though ...

There are a lot of minor bits and pieces that go along with a 3d printer. A few examples:

Filament holders
Filament guides
Ramps Fans
Print fans
Wire covers
LED light mounts
Heated bed spacers
Spare extruder parts
New extruders

That list is simply an inventory of what is on the table in front of me. All were printed on the printer that will be using them. None of them are vital for operating the printer. Some are more useful than others. Other than the spare extruder parts none of them go into the main part of the structure of the printer. That's where metal frames and metal to metal joints help a *lot*.

If anything, the V-slot frame construction is more easily modified than most kits. The stuff is designed to be tied onto and into. Every piece has mount points all over the place. It's very neat stuff. The Core X-Y guys have a lot of fun with it.

Printing up stuff to "improve" a printer is one thing that falls under "hacking a printer". Customizing the firmware is another thing under that heading. Taking a printer from single extruder to dual or quad would be a more extreme form.

Bob

Something that I could't find on their website - how does the Pegasus connect to a computer? USB, wifi?

From your reply I infer that the e3d v6 is the superior of the two and it's the one I should go with. I checked the price, it will be cheaper to buy it along the printer instead of ordering it later on.

When it comes to printing parts for the printer you also mentioned extruders. I was under the impression that it is one of the parts that can't be printed, but need to be bought separately. Obviously, I'm wrong and you can print your own extruders. Correct my if I'm wrong.

In this line of question - what are parts that can't be printed, but need to be bought. (Again, keeping in mind metal is better than plastic.)

Hi

All of the printers you are likely to consider connect to your computer via USB. Almost all of them have some sort of open source card in them that runs the printer based on commands from the computer or sometimes an SD card.

The e3d V6 is indeed the better hot end. It's the one I would suggest you get.

Parts for a printer are to a great extend defined when it is designed and tooled. You start with a list of things that you can afford and then chip away at the list of things that cost a bit more money. On the Pegasus, the extruder has two printed parts in it. There are two Z nut traps that are printed parts. There is a mounting bracket that holds the power supply and the control board. That's the total list. Ideally everything would be metal. Is that worth another $400 or not .... There are also a couple of minor parts that are made from laser cut wood.

If you were building a printer from scratch, I would suggest that you want all of the frame joints to be metal. You want all of the rollers or bearings to be cast parts / precision parts. Drive motor mounts should be metal. You want all of the guides to be precision parts. Minor parts (feet, display mounts, wire covers) do not impact the quality of the print. They can be done just about any way you wish. Some parts (hot ends, heated beds, control computers, stepper motors, power supplies, wires, switches, LCD displays) by their nature simply can not be printed from filament.

The core of the printer is the stuff that drives the print head to a given location. As much as possible that should be metal. Belts are a reasonable second choice. The core of the printing process is the extruder and hot end. Hot ends come pre-made and are mostly all metal. Extruders are moving to metal, but doing it at a snail's pace. Any kit you are likely to buy probably comes with a printed extruder. The good news there is that next year you can upgrade it cheaply.

Upgrades are another whole topic. If you rummage around the MakerFarm site, you will find upgrade packages for every printer kit they ever sold. The upgrades all have an option "with or without printed parts". Those boxes also list the parts and can give you a pretty good idea of what was printed on each generation. It is unclear if one *should* upgrade vs replace an older printer. It is nice to have a choice. Kit outfits vary all over the map in terms of upgrade packages. I have seen people try to upgrade printers entirely using printed parts .... it rarely ends well.

Why metal and not printed parts?

All filaments absorb moisture. When they do, they change size. In many cases they either cross link or de-link over time, that also changes their dimensions. Finally some can cold flow. The net result is that your printed part will not be the same shape / dimension / tolerance two years from now. When critical parts change dimensions, it's time to recalibrate your printer (or replace the parts).

Lots of fun.

Bob

Yeah i agree 3d printer kits aren't too hard to but they can take a couple of hours of tinkering for someone who is new at it. If you are going for a 3d printer kit i would say go for a HITCOP 3d printer kit. They are reliable,excellent customer service, surprisingly good quality prints for the price of the printer and it already comes with a heating bed which helps so that the print doesn't get ruined by uneven cooling of the print(although if you buy a kit with no heating bed you can always find one and add it after). Just always try to avoid the Chinese replicas which are generally cheaper but they cause a lot of problems and not very good customer service

Here is a review of the HITCOP 3d printer kit and a dual extruder kit if you are interested in more info: http://3duality.com/best-diy-3d-printer-kits/

personally I wouldn't bother with a kit, but that's me.
If you're starting out the ready built replica clones are very hard to beat and as cheap as the i3 kits - well they are in europe :-)

If you do get a kit the most important aspect would be to get one with a metal frame. Avoid acrylic, they always seem to cause problems.

As far as support goes - kits tend to be standard parts so easy to replace if they break.
Support for a cheap 3d printer really isn't something I'd ever consider towards my choice. You're never going to ship it back, so all repairs are down to you anyway and parts are easy to get and cheap.
Technical support - like many modern aspects of life - tends to come through forums like this one.

The sensible thing would be to buy the makerfarm in the states - and take the kit back with you when you leave. making sure NOT to declare it at customs :-) Just say it's spare parts for one you already have if they ask.
That way you get the best machine and don't have import hassle.

As far as the dual extruder kits go - DON'T.
the side by side dual kits are a real pita. so what you want to do is upgrade at some point to one of the single nozzle dual feed print heads.
That way you get the benefit of dual extrusion (it's pretty minimal with dual nozzles as it wastes so much filament and takes longer and causes a lot of issues) and the benefit of a single nozzle setup. http://www.3ders.org/articles/201504...ckstarter.html
Everything from levelling to speed of print is better with a single nozzle.

I have two rep clones, one I removed the second nozzle and the other I left it on (it's better built and causes less hassle) I almost never use both nozzles at once.
They dribble so you have to have purge walls with take time and use up a lot more filament and they still dribble. If not perfectly levelled the head you are not using will catch the print at some point and bugger things up.
For 99% of 3d printer uses side by side nozzles are more hassle than they are worth.
In the next 12 months or so there will be more and more multi filament single nozzle extruders coming onto the market. I'd wait and get one of those.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

@uncle_bob - Thx for taking your time for the detailed reply.

@classone - Thx for bringing the HICTOP. I did consider it, but the bed is too small for what I'm after.

@curious aardvark - Thx for clarifying the difference between extruders and for making a recommendation for my situation.

Guys, your answers were immense help for me and given what I have learned I will buy the Pegasus 12'' with the Single Extruder with one e3d-v6 hot end while I'm still in the US and take it along with me on the airplane. I still have couple of questions concerned with power supply and other misc things, but I will address those to Colin.

Thank you very much for your help.

Cheers, Doc.

Hi

The power supply is a standard industrial supply. The "best option" is one from Meanwell. The one that goes with the mounts is about $45 at TRC. There is a new one out that is a bit smaller for $34. Both are mulit voltage / multi frequency.

http://www.trcelectronics.com/View/M...S-350-12.shtml

What ever you do, get one from a real distributor. That way you get a "real" one and not some sort of counterfeit.

Bob

Thanks for the reply, Bob.

Colin also mentions speaker wire. He provides link for it at RadioShack's website, but as far as I could see online they sell it by the spool and I have no physical access to a RadioShack store. Is there any way of finding couple of feet of speaker wire online or getting to the store will be my best bet?

Doc

Hi

RadioShack is pretty much a dead outfit. There are a lot of places that will sell you a relatively small chunk of 12 gauge high strand count wire. Amazon is one, there are many others. There is nothing special about the wire. Any reasonably flexible stranded wire will do. I'd suggest this is one thing you can pick up when you get home.

https://www.amazon.com/12-Gauge-Sili...=12+gauge+wire

Expensive, but very nice wire. Ten feet is way more than you will need.

Bob

Colin had listed 16 gauge wire and you suggested 12 gauge. What would be the difference between the two sizes?

Hi

In the AWG system, the lower the number, the bigger the wire. The wire on the heated bed is 12 gauge. Extending it with the same thing makes reasonable sense. Nothing else on the printer requires anything close to that fat a piece of wire. 18 AWG would be fine for the rest of it. You will also need a power cord for the gizmo. A used computer cord with one end cut off works fine. For the insulation on the bed, Nomex felt is a good choice.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

There are lots of other ways to go for that.

Bob

Doc - Another possible source for flexible wire would be a well equipped hobby store that covers model aircraft. They'll often sell silicone insulated wire by the foot or in packages containing a couple of feet of wire. It can be pricey compared to speaker wire, but what you're paying for is the flexibility obtained by having a silicone jacket and hundreds of wire strands rather than a couple dozen. I think #12 AWG silicone wire typically has something like 700 strands in it. Speaker wire, extension cord cable (which some have used), and any other form of common stranded wire won't come close to that.

For the y-bed application where the heater wires are under constant movement and flex, higher strand count wiring is worth considering. Long term, it will simply be less problematic. There are multiple "melt down" threads in the MakerFarm subforum that point this out.

Hi

Before we all turn you into a complete wire snob, very normal speaker wire:

https://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-RSW12...er+wire+100+ft

In the 50 foot spool for $11 will do just fine. You will have enough for a few dozen printers on that spool.

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncle_bob

1) You will also need a power cord for the gizmo.

2) A used computer cord with one end cut off works fine.

Bob

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Correct me if I'm wrong. 1) is to get the power supply running from the outlet; 2) is an alternative to the wire that will connect the printer to the power supply.

Concerning the wire, when I think of it, I'm probably going to just buy it from an electronics store in Europe. I mean it's still regular speaker wire, isn't it? It's only the gauge that I should take into consideration when I'm buying.

Hi

Yes, the power cord is *not* an alternative to the speaker wire. One is to hook the power supply to the wall. The other is to make a couple of connections between the power supply and the heated bed relay and RAMPS board. I found that a minor bit of wire in the 20 gauge range came in handy for hooking a few things up. A lot depends on just how you decide to locate the power supply and RAMPS. I mounted mine high because it makes it easier for me to work on. The "normal" location is a bit lower on the frame.

To repeat, there is absolutely nothing special about the wire at all. It's just generic copper wire that is available over the counter all over the world.

Bob

Another thing I'd like to ask.

The instructions mention insulation - more specifically, fire blanket or cork (something that can withstand temp of 120C). How do I combine this with the printer? I'm sure it's fairly obvious, but I can't seem to figure it out on the top of my head.

MakerFarm's website now offer "Single Titan Extruder with one e3d-v6 hot end." Is it made out of titanium, rather than metal or is ti just a name for the item? If it's just a name what advantages does it offer over the traditional metal "Single Extruder with one e3d-v6 hot end."

Doc

titanium is metal. I'm guessing 'titan' is just the brand name.

The Titan appears to be a fairly new, geared extruder from e3d. Looks promising. No one has posted in the MakerFarm subforum about using it on a MakerFarm printer yet. Note that the "standard" extruder on Pegasus is a direct drive, without any gearing. Because of torque limitations from the extruder stepper motor without gearing, that limits you to 1.75mm filament.

The insulating material goes between the heat bed and the Y-bed plate that the heat bed sits on.

for basic wiring I tend to use network cable.
A length of cat 5 or 6 (I use 6) cable contains 8 strands of plastic coated solid copper wire. For connections that don't have to flex much - it's excellent stuff.
It's also dirt cheap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doc

Another thing I'd like to ask.

The instructions mention insulation - more specifically, fire blanket or cork (something that can withstand temp of 120C). How do I combine this with the printer? I'm sure it's fairly obvious, but I can't seem to figure it out on the top of my head.


Doc

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Hi

I used the Nomex I mentioned earlier. The insulation goes between the heated bed pc board and the aluminum carriage that goes under it. It does not do a perfect job of stopping heat flow, but it is better than pumping air under the heater board each time the bed moves back and forth in the Y axis. You *might* get the bed up to 130C. Whatever you use should be "happy" with continuous exposure to that temperature. Nomex is good to > 400C so it's overkill. It's cheap enough that it was an easy decision.

Bob

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