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  1. #11
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    To me the word "civilised" means "able to overcome the urge to obey the natural selection urges by application of rules or other means"

    It's a long winded explanation but if you think about it then I think you will agree with me.

    Sadly societies where the biggest / strongest / fastest / most aggressive always win are actually sending us back down the natural selection route which is not ideal.

    The aggression of fanatics of any age but particularly that shown by young males of any species have been an absolute necessity for human survival but we are now (hopefully) at a stage where we can move away from that and evolve to become something that could never happen by natural selection.

    It is a very difficult thing to do, the aggression has to go somewhere, just making laws about it does not remove the urges or need that people feel and this is the problem of governments. Some realise that it is very difficult to legislate and some think that the legislation is enough to secure adherence without considering the outcome. This is where Australia and possibly Canada have the edge. In my opinion Australia is going to take the world into the next step while the rest of the world make petty rules and have stupid arguments about how bent bananas and cucumbers are to justify their six and seven figure salaries.

    You can make as many laws as you like saying men are the same as women or that natives from Africa are the same as natives from England and what you end up with is a situation where I am allowed to say "that guy form Ethiopia is a brilliant runner" but I am not allowed to say "that guy from the UK is a crap runner" because we are now all the same. Women do not swing pick axes as well as men, no one does mathematics as well as Pakistanis, no one runs like the Eastern African natives but legally we are all the same.

  2. #12
    Super Moderator Roxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old man emu View Post
    Question:
    Have any of you who advocate the carriage of firearms in public had to discharge a firearm while under stress and been able to place your rounds as accurately as you did on the training range?
    If you are going to use lethal force, you have to use it wisely. But let's ignore that for a moment. Let's just talk about this situation. Some self righteous fanatic decides he is going to make a statement to the world and jacks up a coffee shop.

    If I was in that coffee shop I would not want to be without any self defense. And let's talk about exactly that situation: In the end, after 12 hours, 2 hostage are dead along with the perpetrator. Why? Because they were all unarmed, and desperate. When they thought they saw him falling asleep they rushed him. How did that work out for them?

    It would have really sucked to be there, but with that mini-revolver in my pocket, I would not have had to rush him. I could pick the time of my choice and make my move. I would not have to over power him (which I could not do). I would just have to out smart him.

  3. #13
    Super Moderator Roxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old man emu View Post

    So where's the answers to my other two questions?
    Quote Originally Posted by old man emu View Post
    Question:

    In a place where there are no restrictions on the type and number of firearms a person can have, either legally or illegally, would a nutter like ours have gone into a situation armed only with a two shot weapon? Not on your Nellie. He'd have been armed to the teeth with an array of the most destructive weapons made.
    Same answer as above. First, lets look at the facts. This nut case obviously knew he was going to do this. He planned for it. But he planned so well that he needed to ask the authorities to bring him an ISIS flag. He wasn't smart enough to remember to get that in advance and bring it with him. So right there, your assertion that he would be prepared as well as a Seal Team is questionable.

    Suppose he had rifles, rocket launchers as well as hand guns. And in fact, he is so well prepared that he is wearing a bullet proof vest. I guess what that means is I would wish I had a different gun. With that said, if that mini-revolver was in my pocket, I would make due. If he turned his back to me and was within 10 feet, that mini-revolver would equal all the rifles, rocket launchers and hand guns he brought with him.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolinor View Post
    You can make as many laws as you like saying men are the same as women or that natives from Africa are the same as natives from England and what you end up with is a situation where I am allowed to say "that guy form Ethiopia is a brilliant runner" but I am not allowed to say "that guy from the UK is a crap runner" because we are now all the same. Women do not swing pick axes as well as men, no one does mathematics as well as Pakistanis, no one runs like the Eastern African natives but legally we are all the same.
    Well, the solution to that is not have laws that are so specific that they have to take a person's individual abilities into account. Once law gets into that kind of micromanagement, it needs to be reconsidered altogether.

    Having a problem with say, laws that necessarily have to treat men and women differently because they deal with reproduction? Maybe time to rethink what the hell business the government has even being in that field of human behavior in the first place.

    As for the big gun legality debate, I don't carry one personally, and haven't owned one for a very long time, but I appreciate the psychological effect that the possibility of legally and secretly armed citizens has on the criminal. It tends to contain their crimes to places that are "gun free" for non-criminals, where people can easily avoid if they can help it.

  5. #15
    Staff Engineer old man emu's Avatar
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    Perhaps time to play my trump card. If I took hostages in a land where I knew that people regularly carried weapons - be they firearms; knives etc, or clubs - within the first moments of the seizure, I'd have made sure that everyone was disarmed. Easy enough to do when I'm holding a gun ready to fire in an instant, and my hostages are confused. How many bank robbers are killed in the USA within the bank by a civilian being held at gun point during the robbery?

    The Americans, both young and old, are telling us that they accept the situation where ownership of any type of firearm is OK, and that a firearm should be used to fight fire with fire.
    The British accept the ownership of firearms, with some degree of control, but don't advocate their use as a law enforcement tool.
    The Australians accept ownership of firearms, with strict controls, and allow their use as a law enforcement tool under strict guidelines.
    We haven't heard from Europeans, Africans or non-USA Americans.

    Personally, I think firearms are sculptures in metal. They are the product of artists. I quite enjoy the rare occasions when I let off a few rounds from a borrowed rifle into a target pinned to a tree on my sister's farm. I might be tempted to go hunting for feral (non-native) animals like rabbits and pigs, or to cull plague numbers of kangaroos on cropland. I don't care to own a firearm myself because I live in a metropolitan area and needing to store it securely in a safe to comply with ownership laws is a hassle. I carried a handgun daily at work for nearly 30 years. In that time, I think I drew it only twice to provide precautionary cover for a fellow constable. I had to euthenise a few injured animals. The only times I discharged a firearm at a person was during approved training using paint ball markers.

    OME

  6. #16
    Super Moderator Roxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old man emu View Post
    How many bank robbers are killed in the USA within the bank by a civilian being held at gun point during the robbery?
    In Texas: None. Banks do not allow firearms within the building unless it is being carried by a law enforcement officer. And I suspect the officer needs to be on duty but I'm not sure about that. But even so... most people feel comfortable pulling up close to the bank's front doors and going in to do their business because the bank is a fairly secure area. And many banks have drive through windows where you never need to leave your car and that area is secured also.

  7. #17
    Engineer-in-Training ssayer's Avatar
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    One of my favorites on this subject...

    A9pY7ATCUAA6esO.jpg

  8. #18
    Super Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    As a kid, like most kids I loved guns, Rambo, Commando... but as an adult, I really have no desire to get one, and living in the country the only reason I would have one is as OME said, to put injured animals out of their misery.

    However, as of today, so soon after, we have an even worse tragedy that hit us. Seven children murdered in their house, stabbed to death. Now while I felt for the cafe hostages, this really has made me quite sad. It's still early so we don't know much of the detail, but it is truly a horrible day in Cairns...

    http://www.news.com.au/national/quee...-1227161862831
    Hex3D - 3D Printing and Design http://www.hex3d.com

  9. #19
    Staff Engineer old man emu's Avatar
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    Geoff,

    I wonder if there is a family link to SamThaiday the Rugby League footballer. He's from up that way, isn't he?

    ROXY,
    I'm scratching my head over this one:
    "In Texas: None. Banks do not allow firearms within the building unless it is being carried by a law enforcement officer"
    To me that is an open invitation to do an armed hold-up. No one in the bank is going to be armed if you don't go in on lawmen's pay day.

    OME

  10. #20
    Super Moderator Roxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old man emu View Post
    ROXY,
    I'm scratching my head over this one:
    "In Texas: None. Banks do not allow firearms within the building unless it is being carried by a law enforcement officer"
    To me that is an open invitation to do an armed hold-up. No one in the bank is going to be armed if you don't go in on lawmen's pay day.
    Well... Remember... Things evolved to get to where they are today. A long time ago, before I was born, it was common to have armed police officers standing by the door of banks (as employees of the bank). But as society got more and more tame, and electronic surveillance got better and better, that became unnecessary. Pretty soon the bank branches would only have enough cash on hand to handle normal business during the day. If you needed a bunch of cash, you would have to schedule the withdrawal a day or two in advance. Mean while, remember the bank's safe is on a clock and can only be opened at certain times.

    Then cash ATM (Automatic Teller Machines) start appearing everywhere. This makes it much less necessary for a bank to have lots of cash because the distribution of cash gets spread out everywhere. And when video surveillance became cheap and easy, banks were the first to have records of everything. Now, the banks have exploding dye packs and GPS trackers included in any money they handout during a robbery. And the police can get not only the bank's camera feeds but surveillance video from red light cameras and convenience stores in the area.

    If somebody robs a bank, it is very likely there won't be a shoot out at the bank. But it is also very unlikely the robbers get very far away without being abducted. In fact, they are probably not even out of the bank before the police are informed that there is a crime in progress. So... The banks have elected to be a 'No Gun Zone'. Just as some places of worship have made the same decision. When the Concealed Carry legislation got approved in Texas, part of it was the ability of a business (like a bank for example) to declare themselves a 'No Gun Zone'.

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