Highest quality 3D print FDM printer - Beginner help me pick Prusa or alternative

[arf8]

Hi, newbie to 3D printing. I've spend about 2 weeks just reading reviews and researching. I'm sure some off these websites get paid for promoting a model, so I figured what better than to ask hobbyist in a community.

My requirements:
1. Highest quality print, smooth surface (I don't want to see the string lines, I want smooth surfaces, I realize this means it will print slower possibly and I'm fine. I understand the quality of the stepper motor is what determines quality)
2. Under $1000
3. Will admit I have not done as much research on material, I expect mostly will print PLA and PETG. I know Direct drive is better for the more flexible material, but likely wont do much of that. Looking to initially print RC parts for now, possibly even a fuselage and wings down the road (hence why smooth surface is critical)
4. Reliability - I want a printer that prints, I don't want to spend hours each print to tinker once it is dialed in.

Everything I've read has let me to the Prusa Mini+ or i3 MKS+. I would get the kit, not afraid to assemble, I'm an engineer so I tinker with everything. But I don't want to tinker with it every print, would like reliability and set it and forget it.

Based on my requirements, what do you all recommend?

Cheers

[curious aardvark]

2 things.

1) you CANNOT get a totally smooth surface from an fdm print. Thew technology jus6 does not work like that.
You can sand and fill after printing - but even with the new 'ironing' function, even a smooth surface would show the filament lines. Certain slicers will let you can change the actual surface pattern. But it's not possible to do away with it entirely.

sounds like you might be better off looking at resin printing. Yes it can be messy and smelly and you touch the uncured resin at your peril.
But superb detail and very smooth prints are pretty much standard with even the cheapest resin printer.

2) autolevelling is mostly ane xcuse to sell you an uneven bed.
A properly flat printbed fitted with nylock locking nuts and properly levelled, is bettre than any amount of 'auto levelling'. A phrase that really does not describe the actual process of bed level mapping.

If done properly and with locking nuts - a bed need only be levelled once. And then it's good until you change the bed surface, of printing setup. It won't go out of level.
So pay for a flat bed not silly gimmicks that hide the fact the bed is not flat.

I'm not ahuge fan of prusa. So I'd say go for the mini if you really wnat one and spend the extra cash on something larger, better built and a lot cheaper.

Admittedly joself has created the perfect business model. In that you buy a kit of parts from him that most likely costs prusa less around $150 and then assemble it yourself.
I'm not convinced that 3d printed pet-g parts are equal to injection moulded parts. But that's where the prusa firmware based around the stepper drivers comes into play.

There is a lot of clever engineering gouing on there - but you really do not get value for money.

A lot also depends on what sort of maximumj build volume you want., what sort of materials you would like to print and whether or not you would benefit from an enclosed bvuild volume and high temperature nozzles.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TENLOG-Hand...16&sr=8-7&th=1
The tenlog dl3 pro is probably the best value for money printer around.
It also uses linear rails obn all three axis - something prusa only do on their nww multi tool head printer.

So that's worth looking at.

[arf8]

Thank you for the feedback. This is why I posted on this forum. I agree with you in that Prusa is making a killer margin for what they are selling. I'm sure if I had more experience I would build my own printer from scratch to get the most value out of it.

1. Agree i think it will be virtually impossible to make it like injection molding but I figure if i use a 0.25mm nozzle and set the layers as small as possible it should yield better results at the cost of speed.

2. Interesting feedback. Are you saying the Prusa bed is not flat or just in general the auto-level for other manufacturers is a gimmick due to poor quality control on the bed?

I looked at the Tenlog printer on Amazon USA and there is several listings all the same model with mixed reviews 3.5 Stars and the one star reviews are a real concern.

Please keep the feedback coming this is invaluable.

[arf8]

Any other suggestions and feedback?

[curious aardvark]

I tend to find amazon one star reviews are pretty much from people who have cocked it up themselves.
Or have absolutely no clue what they've bought or thought someone was going to leap out of the computer and do it all for them.
I mean they're probably not all total idiots, but a lot definitely are ;-)

Prusa beds are flat - never heard otherwise.
What i mean is that the basic prusa i3 has changed very little from the mk1. The current mk3s still uses the same 8 bit rambo board. But they have upgraded the stepper drivers to add the extra functions across the model 'evolution'.
And various minor tweaks to the printed parts.

Assume you are buying a kit of parts - the tenlog wins on pretty much every count.

Also assume that any problems you have will need to be fixed by you.
At the end of the day most people won't be shipping a machine back - if you would like a masterclass in how to send printers back.
Talk to bikeracer2000. He's the forum expert on it.
But generally he's buying the mid range machines and a lot of what you're paying for there is customer service.,

Pretty much all budget printers will have their own niggles.
At the end of the day you're buying a precision plastics factory for a few hundred bucks.

Even my sapphire pro has a couple niggles. The firmware has very odd pid control, but easy enough to work round.

Yes there are a few different models of the tenlog.

You want the one I linked to, it has the 600w power supply, hi temp extruder and a few other little little upgrades the next one down doesn't have.

Also bear in mind that if you buy it from amazon and it doesn't work - it's really simple to send it back.

But it does largely depend what you want to print.

An 0.25mm nozzle and tiny layer is definitely NOT the way to go.
Talk about making a rod for your own back, as well as waiting weeks for anything to print.

If that kind of thing matters to you - go resin. No ifs no buts, that's really what you want.

Resin costs have come right down and there are now plenty brands offering tougher resins and reduced odour resins.
There are even water washable resins if you don't have anywhere to store a vat of uisopropyl alcohol.

Also print volumes have risen.

https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Photoc...1498594&sr=8-3
pretty good place to start.

If you just want to wet your feet then this is about the best starter unit on the market:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/16501459244...QAAOSwcEVf3~9s

Also for hi resolution prints resin machines are a LOT faster.
Each layer is done in around 8 seconds. No matter how large the model or how full the print bed - each layer always takes the same length of time.

On an fdm printer with a 0.25mm nozzle even a smallish model could take 20 to 30 minutes a layer.

What is it you're thinking of printign that needs to be so smooth ?

[arf8]

Thanks again for the feedback.

You are right the reality is the majority of the reviews are generally by folks with little to no experience, but as you eluded there are some who do know what they are doing and have had a pretty bad experience.

Good to know the prusa has a flat bed, I believe the mini+ from what I read is 32 bit. I believe the mk3+ is still 8-bit so you are right they have not made many changes.

I'm going to look at the reviews again for the one you recommended, just want to avoid a situation where its a major headache and i spend more time tinkering then being able to print.

My thought was with the 0.25 it would just make the model smoother, this would be for printing a fuselage or wings. I don't know how well it would even work but figured it is worth a try. In general i plan to use the standard 0.40

Resin is really not an option due to family and pets and kids etc. I'll have to do with FDM for now although I agree it probably has more details.

I plan to also offer free wheel chair and prosthetics for owners with pets who can't afford it for free so the model you recommended being able to do dual prints is attractive if those issues reported in the bad reviews don't manifest themselves. Seems like I need to keep doing research and reading

[curious aardvark]

My thought was with the 0.25 it would just make the model smoother, this would be for printing a fuselage or wings.

oh well that's not a problem.
Sanding blocks and sanding cloth ar your bestest buddies here :-)
pla & petg sand brilliantly and fairly quickly.
I also use microfiles a lot and have a cheapo heat smoother kinda thing tool, that is pretty useful.
It's essentially a usb powered soldering iron with a specially shaped head.

Nylon and polyurethane really don't sand - at all lol
But you can heat smooth them.

And you can always paint with varnish or resin for a super smooth finish.
petg I find really sands smooth quite quickly. And as it's a little tougher than pla - would be ideal for planes. You see a lot of quad designs using pet-g.

Love the idea for the doggy prosthetics.
I have a 'bionic' dog - she had a cruciate ligament go and they vet actually reconfigured the joint to work without needing a cruciate ligament. So she's now got a metal plate holding it all together.
The leg is better than new.

Many years ago we had a dachsund who lost the use of his back legs. We ended up carryng the legs in a sling (pair of tights) - it never seemed to bother him and after a number of acupuncture sessions, he actually got enough usage back to walk on his own again.
Which our vet had claimed would never work.

But if those little wheeled carriages had been around, we'd have definitely got one, he'd have been death on wheels for sure lol
He was still beating up staffordshire bull terriers with his dodgy back legs. Toughest dog we ever had.
Loved people, hated anything on 4 legs taller than he was.

If you ever need any help with that, let me know.

Back to the tenlog - if you look at the amazon reviews, they tend to lump a lot of reviews for different models from the same maker into listings for different models.

So for best comparison - make sure it's specifically the 600 watt 300c nozzle (useful for nylons, and some other industrial at. filament types) review you are looking

And I know it's cynicism verging on paranoia, But I'd put money that a lot of negative printer reviews have been 'sponsored' by creality.
They pay a lot of youtubers - so why not amazon reviewers as well. From their point of view it definitely makes marketing sense.
But that could just be my sneaky criminal mind at work there.


As far as I can see the tenlogs have changed a fair bit from the earlier models.

No 3d printer is ever perfect, and always expect to add some custom modifications.
That's modifications, NOT upgrades.

Modifications are cheap and often done with printed parts.
Upgrades are when you go out and buy new hardware - almost never necessary.

Example: my sapphire pro has no upgrades, just modifications.
I printed a simple bracket that converted it to a direct drive extruder. And printed a top mounted filament holder and changed the printbed nuts from standard to locking nuts. And updated the firmware.
IT's been levelled only twice in about 20 months.
Once when I set it up and once when I had to change the nozzle over, after cocking up a previous nozzle change.
Heat the bock up and make sure you've tightened it properly - yeah lol

I can't see anything on the tenlog pro model that would need to be upgraded.
But there are most likely modifications you can make.
My delta is still all stock parts - but I did do a fair bit of modification: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2386628
Zero upgrades and I think all the mods were printd on the actual machine.

So don't necessarily expect to need to make any changes, but don't assume, if any are needed, that they'll be difficult or expensive either :-)

[arf8]

You pet stories bring a smile to my face. Thanks for the tips and suggestions. I'm a little surprised no one else has chimed in on this post. I'm going to go back and take a look at the models specific to the 600 watt 300c nozzle again. It's easy to get lost and go down a rabbit hole. I'm like a squirrel when I hear about mods or upgrades I start to look at those before finishing what i started then before you know it a few hours pass and I become despondent thinking about everything I have to do to make it reliable and bullet proof and call it a day. Its a vicious cycle when there is information overload and being a perfectionist does not help. I've had a few people tell me to just get the ender 3 v2 and its just as good as prusa and it seems like everyone has an opinion and what their favorite brand is. No general consensus on any model. I'm just hoping i don't make any regrets after the purchase that would really set me back.

[curious aardvark]

I've got three bulletproof printers.
All using different amounts of printed modifications, but all still 100% stock hardware and electronics.

The problem is that most people watch the numpties on youtube. Whose viewing figures partkly depend on them doing constant upgrades.

Very rarely have I ever seen anyone actually learn how to use a machine properly.

Oh it doesn't print fast enough - I'll have to change the extruder and hotend.

NO, all you need to do is to adjust your retraction settings and increase the print temp slightly.

I regularly print at 150mms with a 0.5mm nozze on my delta. It's rough, but workable
And all I use for cooling is a 30x10 mm fan and my own design turbo duct.

The sapphire pro 150mm/s with a 0.4mm nozzle is my standard print settings.

My really really cheap plywood i3 happily printed functional at 200mm/s

Why the vast majority of the internet never prints at more than 70mm/s - I have no idea.

Me I'd rather spend 10 minutes with a sanding block than wait another 12 hours for a print to finish at a higher resolution and lower speed.

So bear that in mind. youtube is driven by upgrades, nolt mods.
And as most youtubers get given the printers - they have zero investment in that machine and spending money to upgrade actually makes them money on a machine that was free.

Also bear in mind that the 'I can make any video I like and the people who supply the machine I'm reviewing have no say in it'.
Is complete bollocks.
In order for them to keep getting machines, they cannot say what they might really think or nobody will ever send them another machine.
Likewise, being given a $500 printer that you are free to sell - does not count in my book as being 'unpaid'.

Which is why i say: buy a machine with good hardware that won't need upgrading (so NOT a creality lol) and expect to do some minor mods - but be prepared to be really happy if it turns out no mods are needed.

[arf8]

That is a really good point about mods and upgrades. It is clear you have a wealth of experience when it comes to 3D printing. The level of details you are taking about is the low level details that I would tinker with but starting out from scratch no way I would know that unless you mentioned it here. Agree about the youtube folks getting free parts. So no creality for sure got it. If you had to recommend a single extruder what would you recommend?