Reverse engineering sw

[davide445]

So we are ordering tomorrow the David SLS3 scanner, and we received this weekend our FDM printer (an advanced model still not on the market).

Generated the point cloud from the scanner we want to convert it into 3d model both for printing but also for other uses such as presentation or further CAD modifications.

What can be a good to start reverse engineering sw? Rhino does have his plugins but appear to be a steep start, MOI3D is not designed for that, was looking at Geomagic but this is simply not my area of knowledge so I can't evaluate it.

[awerby]

The David scanner will produce STL files, which can be printed directly. If there are errors in the files like small holes, overlapping triangles, etc. there are free or inexpensive applications (Netfabb, Meshlab, etc.) which will clean them up sufficiently for printing or presentation.

Reverse engineering (RE) is different, though. This is required for mechanical sorts of things where precision is important. With RE, you can identify a feature like a hole, slot or boss, make it a specific size, retrieve the "design intent" and incorporate it in a CAD model so a functional part can be recreated by 3D printing or CNC machining.

Geomagic currently has a couple of RE applications: Geomagic Wrap and Design X. Wrap is less expensive and easier to use; Design X is more powerful. We're resellers for both products, so let us know what exactly you're trying to achieve, and we can help decide what you need to get it done.

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

So we are ordering tomorrow the David SLS3 scanner, and we received this weekend our FDM printer (an advanced model still not on the market).

Generated the point cloud from the scanner we want to convert it into 3d model both for printing but also for other uses such as presentation or further CAD modifications.

What can be a good to start reverse engineering sw? Rhino does have his plugins but appear to be a steep start, MOI3D is not designed for that, was looking at Geomagic but this is simply not my area of knowledge so I can't evaluate it.

[davide445]

The David scanner will produce STL files, which can be printed directly. If there are errors in the files like small holes, overlapping triangles, etc. there are free or inexpensive applications (Netfabb, Meshlab, etc.) which will clean them up sufficiently for printing or presentation.

Reverse engineering (RE) is different, though. This is required for mechanical sorts of things where precision is important. With RE, you can identify a feature like a hole, slot or boss, make it a specific size, retrieve the "design intent" and incorporate it in a CAD model so a functional part can be recreated by 3D printing or CNC machining.

Geomagic currently has a couple of RE applications: Geomagic Wrap and Design X. Wrap is less expensive and easier to use; Design X is more powerful. We're resellers for both products, so let us know what exactly you're trying to achieve, and we can help decide what you need to get it done.

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

Wrap and Design are in the $Nx000 range as I understood, something more than we want to invest for a start, considering this is not the company primary business but a new line of services we need to develop both as leads and skills.
Interested to know options with pricing on par or below Rhino/Modo + plugins. Also interested to know the sw pipeline for different usage of the point cloud, solid modelling for CAD and printing and polygonal for animation and presentation.

[LambdaFF]

Hi,
I was shown some reverse engineering software in 2009 : you had to manually select points and detail what you expected should be there (plane, cylinder, ...). From my point of view, given the status of the soft at the time it was faster to measure on the part and redesign it yourself. Added bonus of doing the design : it forces you to think your tolerances properly. There was also the issue that the result surfaces were close to the intent but not perfectly so which might create issues for assemblies as mating faces may end up slighly at an angle.

[JSenior]

Wrap and Design are in the $Nx000 range as I understood, something more than we want to invest for a start, considering this is not the company primary business but a new line of services we need to develop both as leads and skills.
Interested to know options with pricing on par or below Rhino/Modo + plugins. Also interested to know the sw pipeline for different usage of the point cloud, solid modelling for CAD and printing and polygonal for animation and presentation.

Wrap is (in my opinion) the best software for turning your point cloud into a mesh and basic mesh alterations. The David software will also do this however, and to start with I agree it's an avoidable expense for reverse engineering applications. Wrap does an auto surfacing function which has its occasional uses.

Rhino with T-Splines add-on is a great affordable option for surfacing scan data.

For solid modelling we use Spaceclaim. Solidworks etc. will all work as well, but Spaceclaim hands itself nicely to Scan Data and in my experience is by far the quickest for producing results. In a standard CAD package you're purely using the scan data as a template. Cut planes through it, sketch around the curvature and extrude up to them. Spaceclaim will let you snap up to a mesh point, but you want to be working to design intent. Use the scan for the shape data and as a reference but use other metrology tools for taking critical dimensions. You have to be careful with programs like Design X that you don't make the height of your object 9.9374mm tall and all the planes off by 0.2 degrees.

With Spaceclaim there is a 3D scanning module (Geomagic capture) but it was over £5k and it's seldom we use it (though it does have lots of point cloud to mesh and mesh alteration features, which if you don't have wrap...) The 3D printing module can be very useful when working directly in meshes for merging meshes and using solid geometry for cutters (scanning something, filling the holes, and then cutting clean ones out before printing.) This is part of the standard spaceclaim license which could prove useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sesc4ZrZ9fo

[davide445]

Wrap is (in my opinion) the best software for turning your point cloud into a mesh and basic mesh alterations. The David software will also do this however, and to start with I agree it's an avoidable expense for reverse engineering applications. Wrap does an auto surfacing function which has its occasional uses.

Rhino with T-Splines add-on is a great affordable option for surfacing scan data.

For solid modelling we use Spaceclaim. Solidworks etc. will all work as well, but Spaceclaim hands itself nicely to Scan Data and in my experience is by far the quickest for producing results. In a standard CAD package you're purely using the scan data as a template. Cut planes through it, sketch around the curvature and extrude up to them. Spaceclaim will let you snap up to a mesh point, but you want to be working to design intent. Use the scan for the shape data and as a reference but use other metrology tools for taking critical dimensions. You have to be careful with programs like Design X that you don't make the height of your object 9.9374mm tall and all the planes off by 0.2 degrees.

With Spaceclaim there is a 3D scanning module (Geomagic capture) but it was over £5k and it's seldom we use it (though it does have lots of point cloud to mesh and mesh alteration features, which if you don't have wrap...) The 3D printing module can be very useful when working directly in meshes for merging meshes and using solid geometry for cutters (scanning something, filling the holes, and then cutting clean ones out before printing.) This is part of the standard spaceclaim license which could prove useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sesc4ZrZ9fo

David sw will generate the mesh also? I did think he generate only the point cloud, even if with alignment.
About the others all are for sure wonderful sw but also expensive and difficult to learn.

We can say the cheapest (even if not the easier to use) option is Rhino+plugin?

What about MOI3D? I'm always returning to Moi since appear to be the easy start for sold modelling, less scary for beginners as us.

Just to understand the difference: tools such as SpaceClaim does have specific tools for reverse engineering, or they are just good solid modelling tools that fit nicely into the workflow that use the point cloud as a basis for modelling? What's the point where Wrap add value vs a generic solid modeller?

[JSenior]

David sw will generate the mesh also? I did think he generate only the point cloud, even if with alignment.
About the others all are for sure wonderful sw but also expensive and difficult to learn.

We can say the cheapest (even if not the easier to use) option is Rhino+plugin?

What about MOI3D? I'm always returning to Moi since appear to be the easy start for sold modelling, less scary for beginners as us.

Just to understand the difference: tools such as SpaceClaim does have specific tools for reverse engineering, or they are just good solid modelling tools that fit nicely into the workflow that use the point cloud as a basis for modelling? What's the point where Wrap add value vs a generic solid modeller?

David will create a mesh yes (I'm 99% sure anyway - have never used it.) In some ways it's more accurate working from a point cloud but I nearly always convert to a mesh first.

It really depends what you're doing whether Rhino is a good tool. If you're primarily doing bodywork then great. It's one of the best until you have £30k to spend. It's slow for parametric modelling however.

Wrap is completely different to a solid modeller. It can (sometimes) create a closed (but ugly) surface from a watertight mesh, but this is a small feature of the program. With most hardware we can scan directly into the program, align the scans, merge them into meshes and then you have lots of tools to smooth/clean the data (which you wouldn't necessarily do for reverse engineering.) There are other programs that can do the most of what Geomagic Wrap can do - it is just good, simple and quick. If you're working meshes you really want to be learning Z-Brush as well.

Spaceclaim has a few scanning specific elements (and it handles meshes much better than most other mainstream programs,) but most auto processes I would recommend to stay away from. 3D scanning makes producing a 3D model of all but the simplest items quicker and more accurate, but you still have to do the modelling, so the best/quickest CAD program for yourself I would always recommend.

In the reverse engineering side of my company I would estimate I spend 5% my time in Wrap, 90% in Spaceclaim and perhaps 0.5% in Rhino with a few other programs added in.

I've no experience with MOI3D

[davide445]

David will create a mesh yes (I'm 99% sure anyway - have never used it.) In some ways it's more accurate working from a point cloud but I nearly always convert to a mesh first.

It really depends what you're doing whether Rhino is a good tool. If you're primarily doing bodywork then great. It's one of the best until you have £30k to spend. It's slow for parametric modelling however.

Wrap is completely different to a solid modeller. It can (sometimes) create a closed (but ugly) surface from a watertight mesh, but this is a small feature of the program. With most hardware we can scan directly into the program, align the scans, merge them into meshes and then you have lots of tools to smooth/clean the data (which you wouldn't necessarily do for reverse engineering.) There are other programs that can do the most of what Geomagic Wrap can do - it is just good, simple and quick. If you're working meshes you really want to be learning Z-Brush as well.

Spaceclaim has a few scanning specific elements (and it handles meshes much better than most other mainstream programs,) but most auto processes I would recommend to stay away from. 3D scanning makes producing a 3D model of all but the simplest items quicker and more accurate, but you still have to do the modelling, so the best/quickest CAD program for yourself I would always recommend.

In the reverse engineering side of my company I would estimate I spend 5% my time in Wrap, 90% in Spaceclaim and perhaps 0.5% in Rhino with a few other programs added in.

I've no experience with MOI3D

We are not doing minime for sure...the first object we have request to scan is the propeller of an amphibious military vehicle.

Giving cleaned mesh to CAD staff is normally enough to enable them to reproduce the original design?
Or this approach does have little consulting value and we need to invest for a real solid modeling tool and skills?

[JSenior]

We are not doing minime for sure...the first object we have request to scan is the propeller of an amphibious military vehicle.

Giving cleaned mesh to CAD staff is normally enough to enable them to reproduce the original design?
Or this approach does have little consulting value and we need to invest for a real solid modeling tool and skills?

Perhaps 10% of our work we're providing pure scan data (meshes or point clouds.) Most people are looking for an end result - whether it's an inspection report, finished solid model or the end manufactured product. Coming to you is just a way to get there so the more stages you can offer or at least assist with the (have a chain of people to recommend) the better.

You'll come across a lot of people who have had bad experiences with scanning in the past as they don't understand the data (they were probably given what they asked for and not what they needed,) and the company doing it has run away without offering any help.

By all means offer pure scan data, there is a market for it, but aim to be clear with what you're offering. Once you can successfully model there will be a lot more work out there.

[davide445]

We are not doing minime for sure...the first object we have request to scan is the propeller of an amphibious military vehicle.

Giving cleaned mesh to CAD staff is normally enough to enable them to reproduce the original design?
Or this approach does have little consulting value and we need to invest for a real solid modeling tool and skills?

Really informative thanks.

Returning into solid modelling I did discovered DesignSpark Mechanical, appear to be the stripped down free version of SpaceClaim. Any reason to don't start with that? I read it's integrated into RS Components assets DB, so it's more focused on PCB or can be used also for something like our propeller?

Need to say, one reason I'm so reluctant in starting with a CAD program is the horrible UI they got, appear all are just remained into the '90. No no other modern/easy to start with solid modelling sw?