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  1. #1

    Need some general help

    Hi guys,

    right now now we are thinking about expanding our business with 3d printing - but we are at the very early stages and frankly don't know what we are getting ourselves into. I have read a lot on the Internet, but there are still lots of things I can't wrap my head around.

    1. Materials. We are not sure what all to print, and right now just think about everything, from architectural models to action figures, toys, prototypes, logos, "heads" and so on. Those will probably need different types of materials (at least stuff for kids need to be safe and not toxic) - would you need different printers for those different things, or can printers use different kind of materials - and what exactly would we need for that?

    2. How fast do they print? Can I print several different things at once? And how much does the material cost for one model?

    3. What softwares would we need to learn? We have some experience with 3d modeling, is that enough, or do we need some specific software? How hard is that to learn? And are there some programs that help you create specific kind of things like humanoid figures or architectural objects?

    4. 3D-Scanning. Of course it would be cool to scan a person and then print him - I have seen people use 64 cameras to digitalize a person. Is there a better or cheaper way?

    5. It is extremely difficult to just check out what printers there are. Which ones would you suggest (for a professional business, not for home use. Money will of course play a role, but don't worry about money with your suggestions - anything under 100.000$ is fine to be in the conversation)

    6. I have sen the zprinter 650 being suggested - that is a 6 year old machine. Are there any real interesting new printers coming out this year? Which printer would be similar to the zprinter from stratasys?

    7. Overall, do you think there can be some real money being made with a 3d printing service, or will the whole technology be so much cheaper soon, that every company and every private person that want something out of a printer have one themselves in a couple of years?

    thanks for your help guys. Like I said, we are at the very beginning here and might just shelve he idea. And of course we will do a lot more research before making any kind of decision, but I would really like to clear some of my question marks first...

    Mike

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by LikeMike View Post
    Hi guys,

    right now now we are thinking about expanding our business with 3d printing - but we are at the very early stages and frankly don't know what we are getting ourselves into. I have read a lot on the Internet, but there are still lots of things I can't wrap my head around.

    [What business are you in currently? It would make most sense if you were in a related field, and had existing customers who could use your new services.]

    1. Materials. We are not sure what all to print, and right now just think about everything, from architectural models to action figures, toys, prototypes, logos, "heads" and so on. Those will probably need different types of materials (at least stuff for kids need to be safe and not toxic) - would you need different printers for those different things, or can printers use different kind of materials - and what exactly would we need for that?

    [Making things for children is a minefield, legally speaking. There are new rules that make it illegal to use potentially toxic materials, or make things that can be choked on, or have parts that can break off and be swallowed, etc. And they won't take your word for it - anything intended for kids under 12 has to be submitted to independent testing labs: http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Business--Man...on/Toy-Safety/

    There are lots of materials that can be 3D printed, but aside from actual food products, I don't know of any that are 100% safe to put in ones mouth.]

    2. How fast do they print? Can I print several different things at once? And how much does the material cost for one model?

    [It depends.]

    3. What softwares would we need to learn? We have some experience with 3d modeling, is that enough, or do we need some specific software? How hard is that to learn? And are there some programs that help you create specific kind of things like humanoid figures or architectural objects?

    [If you want to do architectural projects, there are architecture programs you can use, like Revit. For figures, there's Poser. But if you're just printing other people's projects, they will probably have those programs themselves, and will just want you to deal with their output. Different 3D printers have software of their own, which varies from extremely simple to bafflingly complex.]

    4. 3D-Scanning. Of course it would be cool to scan a person and then print him - I have seen people use 64 cameras to digitalize a person. Is there a better or cheaper way?

    [Sure; it depends on how much detail you want to capture, color or not, how still the person has to be when being scanned, etc.]

    5. It is extremely difficult to just check out what printers there are. Which ones would you suggest (for a professional business, not for home use. Money will of course play a role, but don't worry about money with your suggestions - anything under 100.000$ is fine to be in the conversation)

    [There are plenty of 3D printers you can get for that price, but metal printers are more. You need to narrow down the choices by determining what sort of output you need - surface quality, size, material, etc.]

    6. I have sen the zprinter 650 being suggested - that is a 6 year old machine. Are there any real interesting new printers coming out this year? Which printer would be similar to the zprinter from stratasys?

    [I think that printer is from 3D Systems, not Stratasys. It's one of the few that will print in full color, but the material is not very durable right out of the machine - it needs to be impregnated with some kind of plastic filler to have any strength. I'd caution you against investing in a 6 year old printer, if you're trying to use it in a business; they take a lot of maintenance. There are new printers coming out all the time, though.]

    7. Overall, do you think there can be some real money being made with a 3d printing service, or will the whole technology be so much cheaper soon, that every company and every private person that want something out of a printer have one themselves in a couple of years?

    [Demand for 3D printing services has been on the rise, but there are also a lot of people with printers. And companies like 3DPrinthub have been aggregating these private printer owners to compete with service bureaus. Cheap FDM printers are pretty common, and you'd have a hard time competing with them if that's what you were using, but more expensive SLS, polyjet, SLA, and DLP printers have much less market penetration, and are still mostly the province of service bureaus.]

    thanks for your help guys. Like I said, we are at the very beginning here and might just shelve he idea. And of course we will do a lot more research before making any kind of decision, but I would really like to clear some of my question marks first...

    Mike
    [Sure Mike, you've come to the right place with your questions, although you might get better responses if you asked them one at a time...]

    Andrew Werby
    www.computersculpture.com

  3. #3
    Hello,

    Sounds like you have quite a project to decide what to do. Previous post had a lot of good info. There is a learning curve associated the low to mid level FFF printers. They have to be babysat to make sure all goes well, especially in the beginning part of the print. It is not a click print and come back in the morning. Once you get some experience that will be possible but it takes some practice. Printing at high resolution is S_L_O_W. Large objects can take 36 hours and require feeding in new filament in the middle of the print. Things can go wrong during print like filament breaks, warping which causes print to rip, nozzle clogs, power loss can destroy print unless APC in use, etc. Again all these problems can be overcome with effort.

    Jumping up to the professional level and different process like SLS will be much more reliable, higher detail, faster, more expensive for both machine and materials. They definitely follow the razor/razor blade business model.

    The cadd work can be very labor intensive especially with scanned objects. The mesh has to be cleaned up which can take hours and requires quite a bit of skill. There is some software that claims to do this of which I have no experience.

    Regards

  4. #4
    Thanks Guys for the response! Do programs like Poser produce files, that can be printed directly, or do you have to fiddle around with them a lot? And which programs would you advice to learn? Tinkercad, sketchup, Poser, Revit.... I guess if you want to do different things (like figurines, architectural models and jewelry) you need to use different programs. Which are powerful, easy to use and produce stuff that you can print?

    And would it make sense to get a cheaper, consumer printer first to learn the ins and outs of 3d printing before going for a professional and expensive printer? Something like the Ultimaker 2?

  5. #5
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    Poser has generic figures you can save and print as is, or you can fiddle with them. Other programs work in various ways. Yes, depending on what you're trying to do, there are lots of programs that are specialized in different areas. Power, ease of use, and printability vary a lot.

    Immersing yourself in the complexities of a cheap consumer FFF printer will help you use other printers like that, but won't be much use in mastering the different problems of using resin-based or powder-bed printers, if you ultimately decide to use one of those.

    But it would be good to focus on one thing you want to do, and figure out exactly how to do it, rather than try to learn to do everything all at once.

    Andrew Werby
    www.computersculpture.com

  6. #6
    Super Moderator curious aardvark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LikeMike View Post
    Thanks Guys for the response! Do programs like Poser produce files, that can be printed directly, or do you have to fiddle around with them a lot? And which programs would you advice to learn? Tinkercad, sketchup, Poser, Revit.... I guess if you want to do different things (like figurines, architectural models and jewelry) you need to use different programs. Which are powerful, easy to use and produce stuff that you can print?

    And would it make sense to get a cheaper, consumer printer first to learn the ins and outs of 3d printing before going for a professional and expensive printer? Something like the Ultimaker 2?
    yep - best way to start is to simply get a printer and start.

    There is a learning curve associated the low to mid level FFF printers. They have to be babysat to make sure all goes well, especially in the beginning part of the print. It is not a click print and come back in the morning. Once you get some experience that will be possible but it takes some practice. Printing at high resolution is S_L_O_W. Large objects can take 36 hours and require feeding in new filament in the middle of the print. Things can go wrong during print like filament breaks, warping which causes print to rip, nozzle clogs, power loss can destroy print unless APC in use, etc. Again all these problems can be overcome with effort.
    Okay sounds like you had a really dodgy printer.

    I've pretty much just waited till the first layer goes down and left it entirely to it's own devices. Since shifting from abs to pla - never had any mid-print failures.
    And as for feeding in new filament half way through - what the hell are you printing that weighs more than a kilo of plastic ?
    Not just big - but super dense as well.
    You really do make it sound like hard work - and it isn't, or at least it shgouldn't be if you do your homework :-)

  7. #7
    Hello,

    None of the issues were related to the 3 different printers I've had over the last 4 years. All the issues were related to the process of FDM/FFF. If all you're printing is smallish objects with PLA or ABS I agree, success is not too hard. Get the bed properly leveled, Z height set right, and both nozzles at the exact same height and all will be pretty easy to start. However move to larger objects, long thin geometry on the bed, different materials, 2 extruder operation, and it gets much more involved. That's why there are websites with pages and pages of advice on how to and why the slicers have so many parameters.

    I have not personally done the 36 hour or more print, about 24 is about it, but I don't always start out with a full roll so not sure if there is enough to complete the print hence the mid print feed of filament. Most of my stuff is for actual use with nylon so 100% fill is why it takes a lot of material.

    Just trying to put forth realistic expectations for someone thinking about commercial use. No it's not hard but does take some time to learn. Homework?

    Ha

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