Best filament for durability as bushings

We use 3D printing for small scale mass production of over 20 models and have been printing more than a quarter million parts per year for the past several years using two Makergear M2 printers. We print batches of parts which are used for a variety of purposes in the production of our doors & windows in Belize, Central America. We have looked into importation for these parts, and the price is much higher, R&D takes much longer, and we do not have the demand for most suppliers to provide us with the small QTYs we need. So, we are VERY HAPPY to use 3D printing technology for our needs in this capacity.

We have done a bit of testing with PLA and PETG, but turned to ABS as the filament of choice for its strength & durability for producing parts like bushings which must stand up to a lot of friction over the course of many years. The problem with ABS is that we have always struggled to get good adhesion on the first layer...and also the problem of warping for larger parts. Since most of our parts are quite small, the bigger issue is adhesion. When I am printing a batch of 40-100pcs of a part, and one piece looses adhesion, then it usually ruins many of the parts, and I must start the print over, wasting valuable time, filament, and setting back production.

We have used extruder temps from 220-250F and bed temperatures from 100-125F...we have best results at the higher end of those numbers on the first layer...we usually print at 250F head, and 115F bed. We cover our bed with Kapton tape with no other treatment...and we tested with blue tape...and also spraying the surface with hairspray, glue, and other treatments....we have also tried cleaning between prints with various cleaners....but our best results is just Kapton tape with zero treatment or cleaning.

So, we are VERY INTERESTED in acquiring a 3D belt printer, like the "Blackbelt" or the "White Knight" printer...but we do not need such a large build volume...so I am keeping my eye on the development of the belt printer market.

My question right now is...is there a filament I should try, which would be better for our purposes than ABS. Something with similar strength & durability, but with improved printing characteristics? TIA

I have an m2 as well, you need to put your printer in an enclosure and heat it to 100F if you are not already doing so. You also MUST have a level bed and shim the gantry if it is warped. Search airscapes in the Makergear forum for how to do this as I just did it. Also consider using a brim with 6 outlines and a part offset of .04mm this will help hold your part to the bed and will come off rather clean. Make sure you set your starting height for your layer height. There is what seems to be a complicated method to this, but once you understand how to do it, it does not take long. Having your starting height withing .02- .03 on the tight side of perfect (i.e. 3mm tall sqare is 2.97 -2.98 ) is critical for abs.

Other material to try is PETG but it is not as stiff or slippery as ABS. I have tried nylyon but has similar issues as ABS

Thanks airscapes...I forgot to mention that we also print with larger nozzles...0.50mm and 0.70mm. The 0.50mm gives us much less trouble, but our larger parts do not need high resolution, so the 0.70mm nozzle is very fast....and works for when the prints come out good.

Where did you get a .7 for the M2?? I want one!

Added a picture of my enclosure.. plexi glass and pine.. base is 3/4 MDF and 4x4 post for legs. both front and side doors have lift off hinges top lid does not. I added a thermostatic controlled personal heater to help get the temp up to 100F but the heated bed will do the it without the added heat if it is a long print job.

Sorry, it's 0.75mm - https://www.makergear.com/products/n...nt=21668428676

Nice enclosure :-)

Ah, maybe I figured I would never need that last time I bought nozzles and never stored that data in my brain.. or I am just getting old.. I will have to buy another hotend and the .75.. I change the hot ends rather than nozzle.. faster and less tools.. :-)

You may want to lower your temp.. I use Esun and MakerGrear abs and always print at 235 with very few issues. Do a Pid calibration on your hoted if you have never done one
On the terminal with the hot end cold and off send M303 wait till done. wire down the ouptut as the printer may disconnect do to time out during the test as it takes a few minutes. Reconnect if need be and Enter the values last reported which you wrote down like below (your numbers will be different) Then send a 500 to save.

When I switch nozzles I switch hot ends. I have run Pid cal on each hot end and saved the values in a spread sheet. When I change a nozzle size and hotend set my starting height and set the Pid for the particular hotend I have installed

.25 M301 P17.49 I1.16 D65.95
.35 M301 P19.97 I1.39 D71.56
0.5 M301 P18.64 I1.24 D71.83

number of options, basically most things are better than bog-standard abs.

It does depend how much you are prepared to pay for your filament.

Also - have you tried magigoo on your print bed ?
Easily the best and longest lasting 3rd party printing adhesive I know of.

Filament wise, one of the best things on the market is ninjatek's Armadillo. It's a rigid polyurethane, stronger, lighter, more durable and better temperature stats than abs - and really easy to print. Well I used some, mistaking it for pla - and it printed perfectly.

Pla plus is also an option as well as hi-temp pla.
Another option is a different abs.
Many companys now produce abs plus, the main benefit is claimed low to zero warping.
it still stinks and won't print particularly fast, but it's the built in shrinkage of normal abs that causes all the hassle.

Innofil do a thing called: abs fusion.
They were giving 200 gram rolls away at tct a couple years ago - between us I think my mate and I collected 5 rolls :-).
I did try it, and it still stinks - but otherwise printed really well. But as it still stinks - I'm not going to use it anytime in the forseeable future.
https://www.innofil3d.com/playtime-is-over/

I'll happily post you a 200gm roll to test - you'll pay postage, but obviously the filament is free :-)
Sent things all round the world, but never sent anything to belize :-)


The belt machines are extremely good. And due to the weird angle they print at you get much better strength along both the horizontal and vertical axis, as well as really long bridging - you can even print straight out horizontally without supports !
The small black belt would probably be perfect for you.
Not cheap, but a lot of that is down to the material they make the belt out of. I had quite a long chat with the black belt guys at the tct show, in birmingham last year. The belts are made from a mixture of woven carbon fibre and some other things they wouldn't divulge - it is patent pending after all.
Very friendly and helpful people - well they're dutch, what do you expect :-)

OR - and it's a pretty significant 'OR'
you could make your own :-) https://hackaday.io/project/114738-a...ite-3d-printer
Now that's interesting, he's using kapton tape to coat the belt. I'd be inclined to coat the kapton with magigoo anyway. Never had much luck with kapton.

Given that you can make one for - probably - a few hundred dollars, certainly well under a thousand - versus $11,000 to buy one.
Sounds like you should have all the tools necessary in your factory, as well as engineers to make the parts.
Got to be worth a try, right :-)

Make a belt machine, use abs fusion - job's a good one !
The materials section of the 3d printing market has pretty much outstripped everything else in terms of new materials and properties - but most people still use bog standard pla, abs and pet-g. And they are cheap in comparisoon to some of the newer materials. But if it's a commercial application, definitely worth investing in better materials.
I do like to try as many different materials as possible.
I'm going to have another go with that fusion, just for the hell of it. hot today so all doors and window in my workshop are open :-)

Oh yeah - you both keep typing temperatures in fahrenheit - when you actually mean centigrade.
Small thing but really annoying to those of us sensible enough to not use a temperature scale, based on the temperature of a man's wife's armpit (look it up :-)

here's the pics of the part I got from blackbelt last year.
This is how it came off the belt. No supports were used and it hasn't had any post processing.
They were also printing pretty quick, so this is a 'rough' print.
Attachment 13432
Attachment 13433

Attachment 13435

Attachment 13436
The above pic (last) is the orientation it was printed at. That long horizontal section was printed without support.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

n
Oh yeah - you both keep typing temperatures in fahrenheit - when you actually mean centigrade.
Small thing but really annoying to those of us sensible enough to not use a temperature scale, based on the temperature of a man's wife's armpit (look it up :-)

---

I think the only pace I use F was when referring to the enclosure temp which Is how we Yanks refer to air temperature here in the US. Today is going to be a glorious day with a high of 80F and a dew points in the 50sF :-) And no hair in the pits!

so you actually reckon 37.77 (recurring)c - is hot enough for your enclosure ?
Seems like nearer 70 woul;d work better - at the glass point of the material shopuld stop most shrinkage.
At 37c you'll most likely still get some shrinkage, I would have thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

Oh yeah - you both keep typing temperatures in fahrenheit - when you actually mean centigrade.
Small thing but really annoying to those of us sensible enough to not use a temperature scale, based on the temperature of a man's wife's armpit (look it up :-)

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Doh :o You're right, sorry...

Would like it hotter but with the electronics board inside the enclosure the manufacture suggest keeping it under 110F (43.3333C)

Before adding the thermostat it had gone as high as 112F (44.444C) and suffered no issue other than the PLA spool support drooping, but that has been replaced with ABS. And yes there is some shrinkage causing the very tips of the corners to lift a bit.

Adding a 1.5-2mm filet around the edge of the face that is on the bed, along with a brim that is just about attached .04mm offset eliminates most of the lift.

The parts I am making are small and mostly 100% infill, so solid abs, as they are mechanical in nature.

As I have mentioned in another thread, the ABS I am using is really nice stuff, $40US a Kilo vs the cheap Esun but there is never an issue with thinness variation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by airscapes

You may want to lower your temp.. I use Esun and MakerGrear abs and always print at 235 with very few issues. Do a Pid calibration on your hotend if you have never done one
On the terminal with the hot end cold and off send M303 wait till done. wire down the output as the printer may disconnect do to time out during the test as it takes a few minutes. Reconnect if need be and Enter the values last reported which you wrote down like below (your numbers will be different) Then send a 500 to save.

When I switch nozzles I switch hot ends. I have run Pid cal on each hot end and saved the values in a spread sheet. When I change a nozzle size and hotend set my starting height and set the Pid for the particular hotend I have installed

.25 M301 P17.49 I1.16 D65.95
.35 M301 P19.97 I1.39 D71.56
0.5 M301 P18.64 I1.24 D71.83

---

Thanks for the suggestions...no, never done calibrations for the hotend before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

number of options, basically most things are better than bog-standard abs.

It does depend how much you are prepared to pay for your filament.

Also - have you tried magigoo on your print bed ?
Easily the best and longest lasting 3rd party printing adhesive I know of.

Filament wise, one of the best things on the market is ninjatek's Armadillo. It's a rigid polyurethane, stronger, lighter, more durable and better temperature stats than abs - and really easy to print. Well I used some, mistaking it for pla - and it printed perfectly.

......

OR - and it's a pretty significant 'OR'
you could make your own :-) https://hackaday.io/project/114738-a...ite-3d-printer
Now that's interesting, he's using kapton tape to coat the belt. I'd be inclined to coat the kapton with magigoo anyway. Never had much luck with kapton.

Given that you can make one for - probably - a few hundred dollars, certainly well under a thousand - versus $11,000 to buy one.
Sounds like you should have all the tools necessary in your factory, as well as engineers to make the parts.
Got to be worth a try, right :-)

Make a belt machine, use abs fusion - job's a good one !
The materials section of the 3d printing market has pretty much outstripped everything else in terms of new materials and properties - but most people still use bog standard pla, abs and pet-g. And they are cheap in comparison to some of the newer materials. But if it's a commercial application, definitely worth investing in better materials.
I do like to try as many different materials as possible.
I'm going to have another go with that fusion, just for the hell of it. hot today so all doors and window in my workshop are open :-)

---

Actually, price is a big concern...this is a 3rd world country, and we do have to watch our costs quite a bit. We currently buy from "Flythinking" in China for about $7 USD per Kg. We order several hundred Kg per order...so $40/Kg does not sound very inciting. Same with the majigoo, I think we would easily be spending quite a bit on it....but maybe we'll order a stick to at least see the difference. Concerning building our own, no we don't have any engineers here, I'm the tech guy at the business and I studied industrial design and EET a bit, but didn't finish either degree. When it comes to 3D printing, I'm a novice tinkerer and a DIY noob. I think I could figure it out and build something successfully, but I imagine it would take me hundreds of hours (that I don't have) as opposed to only tens for someone with experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

here's the pics of the part I got from blackbelt last year.
This is how it came off the belt. No supports were used and it hasn't had any post processing.
They were also printing pretty quick, so this is a 'rough' print.

The above pic (last) is the orientation it was printed at. That long horizontal section was printed without support.

---

Your attachments are broken...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by airscapes

Would like it hotter but with the electronics board inside the enclosure the manufacture suggest keeping it under 110F (43.3333C)

Before adding the thermostat it had gone as high as 112F (44.444C) and suffered no issue other than the PLA spool support drooping, but that has been replaced with ABS. And yes there is some shrinkage causing the very tips of the corners to lift a bit.

Adding a 1.5-2mm filet around the edge of the face that is on the bed, along with a brim that is just about attached .04mm offset eliminates most of the lift.

The parts I am making are small and mostly 100% infill, so solid abs, as they are mechanical in nature.

As I have mentioned in another thread, the ABS I am using is really nice stuff, $40US a Kilo vs the cheap Esun but there is never an issue with thinness variation.

---

We have been planning to build an enclosure, so I th9ink this will be the next thing I pursue....thanks again for the suggestions.

Another picture of our setup

Attachment 13443:

I have never tired it but if you google ABS slurry it can be used on the build plate. I am guessing you parts on the edges of the plate come loose most often? How to on the slurry https://www.matterhackers.com/news/h...lue-and-slurry

oh yeah abs slurry works - up to a point.
Yes abs will stick to it like a tick to moose.
Getting it off on the other hand, makes deticking a moose a walk in the park.

I used clear abs back in the distant past when i used abs, you'd often have a clear skin attached to the base of the print.

Have you tried a sheet of PEI ?
It's cheap - I think I paid about £5 for the self adhesive 200x200x1mm sheet I bought from china and promptly lost.
Your filament suppliers can probably send you some.

basically stuff sticks to it when it's hot and unsticks itself when it's cooled.
I use a similiar thing called printbite - that's more costly, but instantly took all the hassle out of printing when i installed it.
No more tape, glue, hammers, scrapers etc.

PEI is supposed to be similiar, but a lot cheaper.
Worth a try.
I would have tested it by now - but for the life of me I cannot remember where I put it and I just can't find it. It's a big sheet in a white envelope, just don't know what happened to it. I do vaguely remember thinking I'd better put this somewhere safe till I'm ready to try it.
And at that point it seems to have vanished off the face of the earth.

Basically, pretty much everything I've ever tried works better than kapton tape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

Basically, pretty much everything I've ever tried works better than kapton tape.

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That is interesting, but I have to wonder if the setup of the printer and ability to maintain a repeatable staring distance and mechanical level is more of an issue. What flament does not stick to the polymide tape sold by Makergrear? I assume all Polymide tape is the same, but is it? I to would like to find something better that is less work to replace. Printbite .. how long does it last??
Oh and how thick and heavy it is, and how well does it transmit heat? The M2 bed is both Y and Z axis so adding weight is not something I would want to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

Have you tried a sheet of PEI ?

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Thanks, I just ordered some majigoo and a couple sheets of PEI for testing....I appreciate all the suggestions.

Please let me know how the 2 products compare to the polymide surface.

printbite last at least as long as your printer. I had one of the first sheets - actually outlasted the printer, which is currenty on ashelf awaiting the day i get a larger workshop and can be arsed to replace, what i believes is a dodgy stepper driver.

The sheet on the delta has been going strong for over 2 years now.
The current sheets are about half a mm, but really really hard. I've actually removed mymat nylon with a hammer and chisel. Didn't mark the printbite. So never use mymat nylon with printbite !
You can also get any graphic you like printed on the current version.
Heat transfer is 100% - I've sused my ir thermo and what it reads is what it says on the printer control panel.

Currently using stick sheets from lankeda.com on the knp and the i3. Good stuff but you have to really dial in your z offset/calibration and up the first layer speed till you're on he edge f not sticking. Otherwise removing prints is bloody difficult.
No idea what it is. Doesn't look or feellike buildtak and is also seriously tough
But it's good for all that.
And it was free :-)

And a quick wipe over with magigoo every 3-4 months stops the worst of the over-stick.

you got a link to a US seller of printbite?

just jason as far as I know, he'll post to anywhere.
https://flex3drive.com/product/printbite/

email him and he can tell you if he's got a us distributitor.

3dfilaprint.com have a us warehouse these days - they stock it.

Will drop him a line!
Thanks!

One of the parts we print regularly is a pull tab for insect screens. It is a very challenging print job because we have then oriented on their side so we can print higher quantities per batch. It is the print job I am basing the notes below on.

MAGIGOO: I thought this was crazy expensive when we ordered our tube...but after receiving it, I see it will last a very long time...so per use, its very inexpensive. We tried using the MAGIGOO for the past three weeks, and it seems to help a little....but not much, maybe 10% improvement in yield. Using only the Kapton tape, we would yield 60-70% of the clips on average. Adding MAGIGOO increased that to 70-80% yield. It seemed that our jobs run immediately after new application would have the best yield, and by the 3rd job, yield decreased noticeably...so we would reapply for every other print job.

PEI: I received these PEI sheets and applied to the 1st printer a few days ago...after good initial impressions, I applied the 2nd sheet to our 2nd printer. After applying the PEI sheet on the 1st printer, I have run 2 jobs, the first one only lost 4 clips, and the 1nd job (pictured) only lost 1 clip. So far, I am very happy with the PEI performance. I will update in a few weeks with more detailed & additional observations.

This is the PEI sheet I ordered - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

so you're making proper end usage parts, 80 at a go !
I am impressed :-)

The pei 'stick when hot but not when cold' does work well.
Pretty sure printbite is a type of pei. The sheet on my delta has been going for nearly 3 years.
I do find you need to up the bed temp a little. So my standard pla bed temp is 65c - and I get no issues at that. The normal 50c for pla, doesn't work as well.
It's interesting that the pei does better than the magigoo (I did 'acquire' a half litre bottle of some kind of print glue at tct, so I'm set for life lol)
I found that fresh magigoo will stick even the most detailed prints.
Mind you I'm printing in a cold garage with about 50% humidity, so ambient conditions could make all the difference. You're somewhere tropical, right ?

From what i recall the OP never printed any calibration models to set starting Z offset properly which could be the only thing wrong as it needs to be changed per layer height and it can be functional differences between 70C bed and a 110C bed. Adding the thick layer of PIE to a bed that is not close enough to start would help and would help more than adding a paint on liquid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

so you're making proper end usage parts, 80 at a go !
I am impressed :-)

The pei 'stick when hot but not when cold' does work well.
Pretty sure printbite is a type of pei. The sheet on my delta has been going for nearly 3 years.
I do find you need to up the bed temp a little. So my standard pla bed temp is 65c - and I get no issues at that. The normal 50c for pla, doesn't work as well.
It's interesting that the pei does better than the magigoo (I did 'acquire' a half litre bottle of some kind of print glue at tct, so I'm set for life lol)
I found that fresh magigoo will stick even the most detailed prints.
Mind you I'm printing in a cold garage with about 50% humidity, so ambient conditions could make all the difference. You're somewhere tropical, right ?

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Thanks CA...Yes, this is tropical Belize (Central America...so we are usually printing at 90-100F with 60-95% humidity, definitely not ideal conditions. We have an AC room, and have been conducting testing with one machine in the room and the other outside the room. We keep both printers running 50-70 hours per week if possible...we have printed more than two million individual parts since we purchased our first printer. We primarily use the printers for small-scale mass production of end usage parts...but we have also designed and printed more than 100 unique models for the purpose of rapid prototyping for R&D efforts. I have attached our printer menu...these jobs are all saved on the SD cards of each printer so we can print independent from a PC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by airscapes

From what i recall the OP never printed any calibration models to set starting Z offset properly which could be the only thing wrong as it needs to be changed per layer height and it can be functional differences between 70C bed and a 110C bed. Adding the thick layer of PIE to a bed that is not close enough to start would help and would help more than adding a paint on liquid.

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AS, while we have not used "calibration models"...that is not to say that we have not set & reset Z-offest. We play with it regularly and are well aware of its effect on the print adherence & quality. We use the Makergear bed leveling wizard, or the wizard in the "Simply 3D" software to re-calibrate occasionally, and we use an automotive feeler gauge to ensure our hot end is approx 0.30mm from the build surface (remember, we are using 0.5mm nozzles).

When we applied the PEI sheets, they are much thicker than 0.3mm...so Z offset adjustment was forced.

Well if you are so inclined I have attache 2 models that can be used to verify the your are correct. I typically have first layer height set to 100% in S3D as I don't need to compensate for anything being the Z is set per my layer height. With at 3.5 nozzle and extrusion width of .4 the 2 models I will attempt to attach are for .2 and .3 mm layer height and should be 2mm and 3mm tall as per the names. I adjust M206 Zxx.xx to produce a model that this .02mm shorter which seems to provide the best sticking power without first layer distortion. You can place these in a grid to check level as well. Just measure the height of the completed model with a digital caliper, you would be surprised how accurate your M2 is. These are only 16mm square if I recall so does not take long to do.

Your 3mm calibration model is printing at 3.6mm tall....

if you are using a .3 layer than you Z offset is .6 too high and why you are having adhesion issues
I can provide instructions MG support gave me when I first got may machine and realized the quick start thing was not very good..

How to alter your Z-offset with the M2 Rev. E:
You can fine tune the bed height without the QuickStart App. It involves sending gcode commands to your printer which can be done in the QuickStart App, PronterFace, or the Machine Control Panel in Simplify3D.

1. Reset your printer so that you are only saving the changed Z-offset to your Rambo board. Navigate to whatever communication platform you choose. And connect to your printer.

2. It may start updating with temperatures every few seconds. It is best to shut this off. (For example, in the Machine Control Panel of S3D press the “Verbose” radio button.)

3. Next, send a “M503” command. This will display your printers settings stored in EEPROM.

4. Look for an M206 in the communication window, these are your offsets for every axis. Then find what value is set for Z. It should be something around 10 to 14 (the unit is millimeters).

5. If you make this value larger your bed will start closer and if you make it smaller your bed will start further away.

6. Enter a new z-offset with “M206 Zxxx” (replace xxx with whatever number you want).

7. Send a “M500” to save the Z-offset to your printer.

8. The new offset will only be used after you home the Z-axis. this can be accomplished by printing something (most gcode has a homing command at the beginning) or manually sending a “G28

Not sure how you are making changes but if you are using your slicer I do not know how to tell you to alter that. If you are using the terminal and changing the stored M206 offset than you need to make the current offset .6mm larger.. Larger the offset of M206 Zxx.xx the closer the nozzle is to the build plate. To see M206 enter M503, to change offset enter M206 Zxx.xx then M500 to save reprint and verify. If you need more details I think I have instructions set to me when I first got the M2 from support.

Interesting...but if I check with a feeler gauge...the nozzle measures about 0.3mm from the printing surface...how can I lower it by 0.6mm?

And, with the PEI sheet applied...my adhesion problems seem to have been fixed completely!

I am making changes physically at the hot end.

Or, using the Makergear calibration software (but that is a PITA).

see above in my previous post on altering the firmware M206 Z offset Here https://3dprintboard.com/showthread....l=1#post132164

Quote:

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Originally Posted by petersglassshop

Interesting...but if I check with a feeler gauge...the nozzle measures about 0.3mm from the printing surface...how can I lower it by 0.6mm?

And, with the PEI sheet applied...my adhesion problems seem to have been fixed completely!

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Guess if that is the case no need to mess with it further but when you have time it is worth while to get familiar with the process of altering the offset at the firmware level. I believe you can make changes in Simplifed 3d but not sure if you need positive or negitive numbers. That is also for that one print only and not universal like in the firmware

So, so since I do not usually have the machines connected to a computer, then how do I program my jobs with the adjustment so that they all run with the offset?

OK, both machines back in their proper location (out in the heat)...we'll see how things go. So far so good with PEI!

Attachment 13641

Quote:

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Originally Posted by petersglassshop

So, so since I do not usually have the machines connected to a computer, then how do I program my jobs with the adjustment so that they all run with the offset?

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You make the adjustment in the EEPROM using the M206 as explained in the previous post. Once that is saved with M500 it stays that way until you change it.

If you adjust it using the Z offset in S3d you need to do it on every single model and replace your Gcode, which is probably not want you want.

If the PEI is working and your stuff is not falling off, don't mess with success :-)

I guess I need to get some PEI to try..