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I have a Makerbot Replicator 2x and I want to start printing using nylon. I have the nylon filament coming this week but I want to know people's experiences.
What is best extruder temperature?
Heated build plate at what temperature?
Best material for build plate? Blue tape? Kapton tape? Other?
Heating/cooling of cabinet temperature?
Any other experiences printing nylon to share?
Thank you in advance.
Idabkey,
When we print in Nylon, we print at about 220C, hotbed at 60C, and we print on a special surface: sandpaper glued to the glass build plate.
We don't do it much, just enough to prove the functionality.
Good luck!
-Davo
davo, sandpaper on the plate is a new one. thats interesting. what kind of grit are we talking? 320-400grit? coarser.....finer?
to the op, nylon can be tricky for larger prints. it does shrink alot so it loves to warp. currently i use garolite as recommended by taulman. so far its been hit or mis. onle time it will bond so hard that the garolite come off with the nylon and i can print the same part again right after with the same settings and it will be peeling off the bed like i waxed it. as for the settings i run pretty much what davo said. the only thing that is odd with nylon is you usually need retraction and ooze control settings that are a bit on the extreme side. i think i am at about 3.5mm for retraction and 2-3mm of coasting along with a slight negative restart distance. i can get my prints to come out super clean if i can get them to stay stuck consistently.
jimc,
We use about 220-240 grit. We tried 400, but it didn't work as well.
Good luck.
jimc..... I think I will try Davo's sandpaper trick first as I have heard it is pretty much hit or miss with garolite plate. I think I can get 220 grit sandpaper with peel & stick adhesive on the back and lay on my glass plate. It's sounds like a great idea to try.
I noticed Taulman recommended a higher 245° C extruder temperature for nylon 618. I thought nylon has a higher melting point than ABS. Since posting, I found this on Taulman site
http://taulman3d.com/618-features.html
And this on Thingiverse site
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:34801/#instructions
Are we talking about a different type of nylon? ..maybe nylon 645? Have you tried that setting with success or is that not a good idea?
Also, thank you for your advice on the retraction settings.
618 is what i print and will extrude fine at 220. 645 is supposed to require slightly higher temps but i have not used it. yes i have all grits here in my shop with psa adhesive so next time i mess with nylon i am going to try it. thanks davo for the tip!
jimc-
I'll give it a go.....and let you know....
cool, i would like to hear how it works for you
Let us know!
I have had very good luck recently printing 618 at 245 onto unheated glass bed pretreated with a children's Elmer's Glue Stick - just a thin coat. I've got the kind that goes on purple and dry's clear. "normal" spacing from hot end to glass (as in I'm using the same procedure to level the print bed I use with PLA.) My glass is just double strength glass from the local hardware store - nothing special. Cheap and easy to get and cut.
Much better then my previous method which was again at 245 onto canvas glued to glass (again unheated.)
Excellent, thanks for sharing. Topics like these will make it less annoying for the next wave of people to get up to speed.
rkopf-
Thank you for the temps. My nylon spool is due to arrive today. Can't wait to give it a try.
I found the same trick of using a glue stick (Elmer's purple) on glass to be most effective. Bought a 5-pack for $4.99 at Staples. In fact, I have found it more effective over kapton tape or painter's tape even when using ABS or PLA. The trick is a thin layer (as you said) but you must put it on when the glass is cool if using a heated plate. I'm surprised more people aren't using this method over kapton or tape.
Got my Nylon 618 and printed some gears for a test with good results. Printed at 245° C with an unheated build plate. My build plate is a glass plate coated with Elmer's purple glue sticks (rkopf-worked like a charm). I did find that even using an unheated build plate that I was getting some curling/rounding of my gear on the bottom. I solved that by using a raft. At first, I thought using a raft with Nylon might be difficult to separate but it was easy as pie. Also no difficulty popping off my build after the glass plate cooled. I think I'm now off and running with printing Nylon.
Glad to hear it, Idabkey. Congrats!
I've been trying to print 618 nylon for a month now. If I print anything over an inch wide I get wicked warping. Everything I've tried to get it to stick fails. I have not tried sandpaper yet. 'jimc' mentioned psa adhesive. What is that? My concern is about gluing sandpaper to the glass. Are you able to get the sandpaper and adhesive off easily?
Here's a list of what I've tried. All failed to hold the corners down. I even used a skirt of 20 lines and the part just rips away from the skirt.
1. Glass with purple Elmers with non heated bed.
2. Glass with purple Elmers with 40c, 50c, 60c and 70c bed.
3. Glass with blue take. The part ripped the tape off of the glass.
4. Glass with Kapton tape.
5. Garolite with Purple Elmers with no heat, 30c, 40c, 50c, 60c.
6. Garolite with Aquanet with no heat, 30c, 40c, 50c, 60c.
7. Garolite scratched with steel wool with no heat, 30c, 40c, 50c, 60c.
8. Garolite scratched with 80grit sandpaper with no heat, 30c, 40c, 50c, 60c.
9. Garolite+Aquanet scratched with 80grit sandpaper with no heat, 30c, 40c, 50c, 60c.
10. Garolite+Purple Elmers scratched with 80grit sandpaper with no heat, 30c, 40c, 50c, 60c.
I have not tried wood. I see a few posts about that. I'm afraid that maintaining a supply of adequate wood to print on is going to be very tedious.
Some people report hit and miss with Garolite. I've never had a hit.
I really like the integrity and feel of the the parts. I just wish I could get it to stick.
Edit: My 6-hour print was running as I was posting. It finally finished. This one was on garolite+Elmers at 240c with the bed at 60c. Get a look that that warp. I hope I can solve this.
Attachment 1573
Have you tried glass with ABS juice @ 90c?
rob. as soon as you put something on garolite your not printing on garolite anymore, your printing on whatever you put down. garolite i have had as you say hit or miss. it needs to be absolutely squeaky clean and try to not use it scratched. heat the garolite to about 50c. you should atleast be able to get a good print once in awhile. another thing i know of is people are printing it on nylon itself. get yourself a 1/4" think nylon sheet. in your pic though that is a fairly large piece. i think your going to have trouble with that. once my 618 ran out i ordered the bridge. i have not tried it yet but is supposed to have way less warp. psa = pressure sensitive adhesive. basically anything self adhesive, tape, etc. i get sandpaper in rolls with psa adhesive so i can stick it down on the bed easily just like i was putting kapton down.
Thanks jim. My list includes everything that I'd read in posts that people said worked. If they had said peanut butter on silk at 300C I would have tried that...lol...
'
I see your logic about "anything" on garolite. I did clean it twice with acetone and used the new side. I then read several posts where people had scratched it and sanded it. One sanded it to expose the cotton fiber and that worked for him. I was just trying anything that someone else had reported results from.
I have not tried abs juice at 90C. I'll do that. I have read that 618 was the hardest to use but only read that after I had ordered it. I'll look into the bridge too. PSA, ah yes, makes sense. My son laughs at me when he throws abbreviations at me in emails and then I have to write and ask what he's saying. Pretty funny.
I'm going to try sandpaper, nylon sheet and abs juice next. My very first experiment was actually with abs juice at 40C. I forgot to list that. Thanks for the input Jim. That gives me a few more options so I can use up this 618. I still have 1/2 a roll left and I rather not have it all be wasted on warps.
Last thing, you said, "in your pic though that is a fairly large piece. i think your going to have trouble..." What specifically are you saying: the piece it too thick (to heat properly?), too large dimensionally (but how do I clip it to the bed if it's smaller?), or what exactly?
rob just meant its a little large dimensionally to make an easy nylon print. just like abs, the bigger and more hard corners the more difficult
Hi Jim,Quote:
Originally Posted by jimc
What brand of psa sandpaper rolls to you get? There are a bunch out there and if you've found one you like can you share? I'm about to throw my 618 away. I just tried a bunch of ABS slurry on glass and that didn't work well. I spray mounted some 120 grit sandpaper to glass and that pulled the grit off of the paper backing. More failure...lol... Maybe it was old sandpaper. Anyway, I want to order some and thought that if you've found some you like I'd get the same thing.
Rob, i have not actually used or tried the sandpaper trick as of yet. Actually i think that was recommended to me at one point by davo from hyrel. I think he said he used 220grit. You could shoot him a pm. As for psa paper though try indasa redline in 2 3/4" rolls. I hate indasa paper for sanding but it does have a much stronger adhesive than 3m or norton. Its also alot cheaper. Once you cover your bed with it inwould rinse the paper with some water since mist sandpapers have a anti loading agent in them called stearate. This would probably effect adhesion of the nylon. Abs slurry doesnt work. For nylon its either garolite, a cellulose type board like mdf or actual wood like poplar. The third choice is actually a piece of nylon. I think thats all you got to choose from. My 618 is gone and i have a roll of bridge sitting here now for a couple months which i have yet to try but its supposed to be easier.
Hi Jim, ok, thanks for all that good info. Since garolite doesn't work for me I guess I'm on to nylon or wood. I'll grab a few sheets of "new" sandpaper and see what happens. I think mine might have been old as the grit layer released from the sublayers. I did find the Indasa paper. If nylon and wood fail I'll try that. I like the idea of nylon and wood as there is no adhesive involved. I worry about the wood getting scarred up and going through a lot of it. I do have a planer so I can always start out thick and then shave it down. Since I did the auto-leveling upgrade, that not a problem anymore.
I'll report back. Thanks again for the good info on the paper and stearate issue.
I have heard of alot more success stories with nylon
I'm hoping I'm able to join that "success story" club soon. I have some ideas and need to print the parts in nylon. I'll figure it out. Your input was valuable. I'll keep at it.
I had success today. I printed on wood and used a clip light behind and one in front to create heat. I set the bed to 80C and the wood did heat up to that temperature. I surrounded them with foamcor to create an envelope and my 4"x3" part printed perfectly. I've had 5 failures with the same part using different substrates and techniques.
I hope to repeat the success so that I know I have a technique instead of a happy accident. It's a 7 hour print and most of the warps don't start until it's over 1/2 way done so it's been frustrating. But for now I'm thrilled. I can't wait to use up this 618 Nylon as I've ordered some Nylon Bridge per Jim's suggestion. It should make life much easier.
Attachment 1832
Nice! Progress
I have great news to report. I've now made two prints with Bridge Nylon and it is amazing stuff. I took years off of my life trying to print 618 Nylon. Bridge prints on glass with Elmers glue stick and it sticks like crazy. In fact, I had some filament stream out of the hotend at 'Home' and it coiled up on the bed (untreated area over in that corner) and it stuck to the bare glass. How nice is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ldabkey
The only problem I had was on a small layer that printed in too short of a time several spots tended to melt and get ugly. I need to change the 'minimum time per layer' parameter from 5-seconds to something longer and test again. But, I think that will solve it.
So, to come full circle in this long thread, Idabkey, get some Bridge and try it. Thanks to Jim for recommending it.
Final wrap-up. Today I printed one of the cleanest parts I've ever printed. It was with Bridge Nylon. I didn't use particularly thin layers or a slow print speed (.24mm and 40mm/s). Granted, I've spent months calibrating this machine and I do expect good prints (as long as I can get them to stick and not warp), but, I am thoroughly impressed with Bridge.
Here is a shot of the part. The hole is a 1/4" hole for a 1/4-20 bolt and is really, really clean. I'll pass a bit through it to clean it up but I really don't need to. The flutes (grip) at the left printed nicely too. I got zero warp on the contact surface with a 6 line brim. I mean zero. It's glass flat. So anyway, just wanted to pass this along.
Attachment 1867
Be careful what you wish for...lol... I've solved my "sticking" problems too well.
I read about using PVA glue to coat the glass bed in a post by Zennmaster. "Cool," I thought, as I've tried everything else. So I ran to my shop and looked for some Elmers Glue. I had none but I had some white wood glue without a label so I used that. Well, the print stuck, well, like glue!
It stuck so well, that it cracked my new borosilicate glass down the middle while it was cooling off of the machine. I've ran it under hot water and that did not soften the glue so I've been trying to carefully lift it with a single-edge razor blade and a putty knife. So far, only one new crack in the glass. It's really stuck. If I ever get it off I'll have my first truly "warp free" nylon part.
Attachment 1887
Haha watch what you wish for right rob? Lol. Sux you cracked the glass. I have heard it sticks to glass really well and guys are using glue stick to actually keep it from bonding so well. Ive had my roll here quite awhile and i still havent printed with it. If you print with it enough im sure youll get a good procedure worked out for it. Keep us posted!
I tried purple glue stick on glass, pop-off and warp. I then tried Aquanet on glass, pop-off and warp. Tried burnished tape, no go. Tried sandpaper again, no go. Then, read some more and came across the PVA glue technique. PVA on glass, no pop, no warp, permanent. Good thing my original design called for the bottom of the part to have a 200mm piece of glass stuck to it...."not.".... Yea, I'll find the right sweet spot....
I had to take a masonry chisel hammer and chip the glass off. Lifting it actually separated the glass through the horizontal and left a thin coating of glass stuck to the bottom in a few spots. It was kind of hilarious on a certain level.