Flashforge Creator Dual / Pro How to fix Dual Extruders dragging across prints.

Hi Guys,

**Update

This thread also contains in the posts below information on how to fix this problem on the NEW flashforges too.

Any of us with the FF or makerbot dual extruder models know the pain. Print anything wider than the distance between the two nozzles and "Griiiind" you get the nozzle drag on the print. This can cause both bad prints, it can mess your hotbed levelling up and at worst, knock your print right off the platform while printing.

There is a very simple fix to this. It requires your stock allen key set for the Flashforge. One for the cooling fan and a small one for the nozzle height adjust.

Photos show the original FF extruders, but even the new ones are pretty much the same, or at least for this procedure.

Undo the two screws keeping the Fan in, just put it to the side (we have no need to unload filament or remove the motor.)

What you are looking for is this little sucker...

http://www.devogeninteractive.com/pi...9_532F95DB&jpg

Now the obvious first question I had is "Oh man.. how am I going to get these perfectly level?" Answer is ...

I have to be brutally honest here. I made no measurements. I checked no levels.. I simply took a best guess.

First time I tried, I loosened the hex, then I pulled/twisted the nozzle so hard, it pulled almost all the way out! So I thought.. oh no, I messed up here! I only wanted it to move a TINY bit.. now it's completely out!

Turns out, they CAN'T go in too far. Just push the nozzle head up as far as it goes and stop just before you touch the black plastic that's covering the bearing and extruder gear, then do the same to the other one .

The idea is to have one slightly higher than the other (and I do mean slightly! like 0.05mm) Once this is done, run a calibration in your machine from the front panel to make sure it's printing on the bed properly from both nozzles and they are aligned.

I did this personally when the head was mounted on the machine - the photo is just of my spare head, to save me the bother of unscrewing my machine to take a shot :)

For the more particular people, See the Blue Circle? Now look above the circle. See that little gap between the end of the nozzle and the actual feeder? that's your measurement space there - its much easier to measure that than the nozzle heights.

So that's simply a setscrew that adjusts the nozzle height?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ixlr8

So that's simply a setscrew that adjusts the nozzle height?

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Yep, it's that simple! The only thing I suggest is making sure Top end of the nozzle, the silver cylindrical tube, does not touch the plastic of the extruder attachment, just a few mm away from it, mine is like 1mm away, i fear touching might melt it

Makes me wonder if we are trying to level our print beds using misaligned nozzles. The leveling would never end....

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Originally Posted by ixlr8

Makes me wonder if we are trying to level our print beds using misaligned nozzles. The leveling would never end....

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That's what drove me to that point to be honest, I just couldn't get mine to stop dragging, I levelled and levelled and levelled until my fingers fell off, I couldn't for the life of me get it to stop dragging - so I was going to remove an extruder and in pulling it apart found that bolt, and decided to see what it would do - turns out it fixed my problem more than I could have hoped for - I can even have a slightly off level bed and it still prints without dragging.

Alot of people I know with dual extruders do not use them, and I can understand that it can be a pain, so even with this method, you could raise one up say, 2-3mm and get it out of the way without having to remove the whole nozzle or even unplug it. And, if you are printing small items, you could still use both extruders as long as you rotate the piece the right way to avoid dragging - and worst case scenario you can just adjust the nut again and get it level.

The trick is getting the nozzles and the bed level right? yeah im still getting around the best way of doing that with our machine, if I find an efficient way I think works well i'll post it, but for now I dont do anything special at all, just alot of trial and error :)

Great news gentlemen! - this adjustment screw is now on the back (my machine a few weeks old)

which makes it much easier to get to - NOT!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-B...416_110858.jpg

which means you get to do something like this

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_...416_111653.jpg

my notes -

The fan screws hold the stepper motors on.

I think it would have been easier had i unloaded the filament first.

you can put the fan screws into the mounting holes on the bottom of the plate, and mine were spot on the same length - if only i had something the right height to check it against... i did think about printing one... and then was like.. oh yeah.. pieces..

It's hard to measure with calipers - as there are no good parallel surfaces to the nozzles - but i think i did ok.

oh wow... thanks for the pics SL666..

I wonder why on earth they would do that!

Why don't you just flip them around now why you have it pulled apart lol! might make it easier for the future... (as in take both nozzles out, and flip the aluminum bar - same thing, wont affect anything)

I was thinking about that - but the nozzles are offset in the mounting bar.. so it would change their location and not work with the extruder drive..

Looks like the nozzles are now pretty level - no dragging, but of course i now have a clogged nozzle :P

And clogged nozzle fixed - tried 250c preheat and pushing it through, no dice, so i disassembled and found this:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-T...417_083852.jpg

so i pre-heat to 250 again let it cook for a minute, and grabbed it with a pair of pliers and it came straight out.. no force at all.

I'm getting reasonably proficient at removing the extruders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SL666

And clogged nozzle fixed - tried 250c preheat and pushing it through, no dice, so i disassembled and found this:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-T...417_083852.jpg

so i pre-heat to 250 again let it cook for a minute, and grabbed it with a pair of pliers and it came straight out.. no force at all.

I'm getting reasonably proficient at removing the extruders.

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Ahh I see what you mean about the offset, ah well , it's not like you need to adjust it often and as you said, you are getting handy taking them off. It's only a couple of screws really isnt it for an extruder, im glad they made it as basically constructed as they did, makes my simple brain work much less harder.
:)

Okay got my first blockage last night. A bit cheesed off about it as it was six hours into a seven hour print.
The machine started to make a ticking noise and after a few minutes (couldn't see anything obviously wrong so I let it keep going) I could see the nozzle wasn't very close to the object and the heat from it was just roughing up the surface.

Any tips on how to clear the blockage before I start?

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Originally Posted by Billzilla

Okay got my first blockage last night. A bit cheesed off about it as it was six hours into a seven hour print.
The machine started to make a ticking noise and after a few minutes (couldn't see anything obviously wrong so I let it keep going) I could see the nozzle wasn't very close to the object and the heat from it was just roughing up the surface.

Any tips on how to clear the blockage before I start?

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It depends on how long you let it click for, if you let it clicking until it stopped, then you will most likely need to take that fan off, and just the front of the extruder case (nothing falls apart, its pretty easy) and get the gunk out, because most likely its ground to a powder in there and clogged the gear.

If it only clicked for a little bit and you stopped it, then you might be able to do a preheat purge, ie set your preheat to like 245c and see if that can get the main gunk out, then try feeding filament ontop of that to push it through.

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Originally Posted by Geoff

It depends on how long you let it click for, if you let it clicking until it stopped, then you will most likely need to take that fan off, and just the front of the extruder case (nothing falls apart, its pretty easy) and get the gunk out, because most likely its ground to a powder in there and clogged the gear.

If it only clicked for a little bit and you stopped it, then you might be able to do a preheat purge, ie set your preheat to like 245c and see if that can get the main gunk out, then try feeding filament ontop of that to push it through.

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Ah, fan-off it is then.
I tried to heat the extruder and back the filament out but it was still pretty jammed.
A job for later today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billzilla

Ah, fan-off it is then.
I tried to heat the extruder and back the filament out but it was still pretty jammed.
A job for later today.

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Once you do it the first time, you will laugh at how remarkably simple it was. It's easier than taking apart a bubblejet printer. There are no tension aspects, no springs magically burst out leaving you wondering where it came from.. it's is literally a couple of hex screws and the fan slides out completely (toward you) and you have full access to the extruder. I think I was into the 6th or 8th week with my machine when it happened, you get it down to a speed record after a while :)

Gday All,

Shortly shall be purchasing my first 3D printer and as it will most likely be the flashforge Creator X with dual extruders, can anyone tell me the diameter clearance you have when printing on one extruder only before the second extruder starts to become an issue ?

IE : Basically what is the distance between the two extruder nozzles.

Thanks in advance
Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lycan

Gday All,

Shortly shall be purchasing my first 3D printer and as it will most likely be the flashforge Creator X with dual extruders, can anyone tell me the diameter clearance you have when printing on one extruder only before the second extruder starts to become an issue ?

IE : Basically what is the distance between the two extruder nozzles.

Thanks in advance
Steve

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about 33.2mm nozzle to nozzle

Thanks Geoff,

For the size of housing areas on most units you would think they would have created greater separation distance between nozzles, say 100mm so less chance of these issues arising.

Thanks Again
Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geoff

Once you do it the first time, you will laugh at how remarkably simple it was. It's easier than taking apart a bubblejet printer. There are no tension aspects, no springs magically burst out leaving you wondering where it came from.. it's is literally a couple of hex screws and the fan slides out completely (toward you) and you have full access to the extruder. I think I was into the 6th or 8th week with my machine when it happened, you get it down to a speed record after a while :)

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It seems to be quite similar to my UP printer, so it should be something I can do pretty easily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lycan

Thanks Geoff,

For the size of housing areas on most units you would think they would have created greater separation distance between nozzles, say 100mm so less chance of these issues arising.

Thanks Again
Steve

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It has to do with how big the machine is. If they separate the extruders more the x travel would need to be lengthened so both extruders can hit all spots on the build plate. Also as you increase the x travel bars the more they can sag in the middle due to the extruder weight. That brings up some more issues, a wider space between the extruders means the extruder assembly will weigh more and that makes more weight to move back and forth, more weight to stop/change directions, etc. You would probably have to slow down the travel or the belts will skip. It is all a trade off. For now until I need to do dual extrusion I have removed my left extruder stepper motor. I haven't increased travel speed yet but I intend to eventually to see if I can gain some print speed due to the lighter extruder weight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jfkansas

It has to do with how big the machine is. If they separate the extruders more the x travel would need to be lengthened so both extruders can hit all spots on the build plate. Also as you increase the x travel bars the more they can sag in the middle due to the extruder weight. That brings up some more issues, a wider space between the extruders means the extruder assembly will weigh more and that makes more weight to move back and forth, more weight to stop/change directions, etc. You would probably have to slow down the travel or the belts will skip. It is all a trade off. For now until I need to do dual extrusion I have removed my left extruder stepper motor. I haven't increased travel speed yet but I intend to eventually to see if I can gain some print speed due to the lighter extruder weight.

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Yep, I actually would prefer the extruders to be closer together (wha?) yeah, when they are set up right and don't drag, ideally they could be even closer together. This would allow a bigger build area, and levelling the build plate would also be easier.

The problem I have that is a constant on my machine is the slightly sagging heatbed (should have a new one soon) when you level the heatbed, you will find the extruder closest to the edge is always a tighter tolerance to the one closer to the center of the plate. I have adjusted the height of my nozzles to compensate for this, but ideally I wouldn't have liked to do that. If they were set at even 20mm apart, this would facilitate in getting the hot bed even more level because both nozzles are closer to the edge giving you a more precise area to level rather than that rough inch you need to account for due to one nozzle not being on the edge of the platform.

Geoff - I'm going to put on a piece of glass to get a flat bed - the aluminium one moves around too much (cold to hot) for me for larger stuff.

Minor update on that blocked extruder I had - I wanted to use the Flashforge to print a model rocket nosecone for a friend so decided to have a better go at unblocking it.
Heated the nozzle up to 220° and tried to reverse the filament out - no good.
Same for 230°, so I ran the nozzle up to 250° .... still no good. So I tried extruding and that seemed to work okay.

So I took a punt and set it up to print the nosecone and it all worked just fine. FWIW I upped the extruder temp to 230° and didn't have any blocking problems.

Well.

Guess who decided to try and adjust nozzle alignment,

Lets just say I now know to totally disassemble the extruders but there was a difference between the two nozzle heights according to the calliper's.

It ended up taking me like 2.5 Hrs to pull it all apart ( still had filament in it..oops ) and get it back together again.

Its currently doing a print so be interesting to see how much I have upset things, will know in about 2Hrs

Excel,

Print completed with no drama`s and it appears I have eliminated the occasional scraping on the print from the un-used extruder.

For a change tonight I am actually going to turn off my printer and go to bed before 01:00 am compared to the last three nights being between 4 and 6 am.

Catchya All

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lycan

Excel,

Print completed with no drama`s and it appears I have eliminated the occasional scraping on the print from the un-used extruder.

For a change tonight I am actually going to turn off my printer and go to bed before 01:00 am compared to the last three nights being between 4 and 6 am.

Catchya All

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I have never run my printer overnight, ever - I am just paranoid that's all so I have never had issues I did't know where they started - unless music was too loud and I didn't hear the click click click..

Worst thats happened is a spool got stuck and ended up pulling the thing so tight it snapped the spool holder.

I too am not game enough to leave my printing running unattended, hence last couple of nights been going to bed as the sun rises.

Soooooo tired now after 3hrs sleep each day over 4 days.

Yeah, never leaving your Flashforge unattended is a wise thing. The power supply section on the mobo has issues, there was at least one report of them catching fire, mine fried the power supply socket that goes into the mobo. More on that in separate thread.

lol - once I see the first layer is down - I just leave her to her own devices.

Sometimes you come back to a mess - sometimes not.

But life's too short to babysit every single print. I have other things that need doing as well.

That said I'm still in the early stage of swearing at makerbot for their truly crappy software and trying to get things without rafts to stick to something: anything !

So long prints aren't a big issue - yet.
But I've got no problems leaving it printing by itself.

2am seems to be my average stop time at the moment, when I'm playing with the printer :-)

oddly the one thing I've never had a problem with is head drag. Not on the original bed or on any of the glass beds.
Nozzle I cleared by just unscrewing, soaking in acetone for a few hours and then poking with a nozzle clean kit my mate 'borrowed' from work ;-)
That said the extruder iss till giving me feed issues I think some of the ninjaflex got stuck in the gears as it was fine before I tried that. So it looks like a complete teardown of the right head is in order anyway.

So glad I've got two heads. can't understand people who remove one. Backup redundancy is always a good thing :-)

I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky, Or too stupid to know the difference.I just got my printer to weeks ago, and I've been running it overnight virtually every single night and have not had a single problem.

as has been mentioned the creator pro is a much improved machine than the straight creator.
So you shouldn't have the same issues we have :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guitartoys

I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky, Or too stupid to know the difference.I just got my printer to weeks ago, and I've been running it overnight virtually every single night and have not had a single problem.

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Most of us don't :D. I's like Curious... hasn't been able to properly print in ABS, yet for me, it's my preferred plastic.. and I have the older machine. Some people can get warping, some don't... some people need all this cooling fan mumbo jumbo and heated chambers... some dont .. some need to print super hot while others can print the same thing super cold. Some can print faster...

For us practically all having the same machine it's amazing how differently they run. I often think 'man.... am I just lucky? " I read through alot of forums and people having issues and It's like... 'nope... never had that problem.... nope never had that one either..."
I still have my original motherboard from my FF that has firmware v1.0, it's like my backup that never fails.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geoff

Most of us don't :D. I's like Curious... hasn't been able to properly print in ABS, yet for me, it's my preferred plastic.. and I have the older machine. Some people can get warping, some don't... some people need all this cooling fan mumbo jumbo and heated chambers... some dont .. some need to print super hot while others can print the same thing super cold. Some can print faster...

For us practically all having the same machine it's amazing how differently they run. I often think 'man.... am I just lucky? " I read through alot of forums and people having issues and It's like... 'nope... never had that problem.... nope never had that one either..."
I still have my original motherboard from my FF that has firmware v1.0, it's like my backup that never fails.

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So i just found these forums a few days ago.

I'd been having the scraping problem where it pulls my part off of the board. I adjusted the height using the advice in the original post and now my left extruder prints nicely without the right one pulling it off.


Unfortunately the screws holding the extruder in place are not that great and mine was stripped out using the allen wrench that was provided when I tried to calibrate them so that I could use both.

I am considering making another Replicator so I can have 2 of them and just use the other extruder, since it never gets used anyways.

Do you have any advice or insight on how difficult it would be to make another, know where to get the allen screw that is securing the heating element etc?



Rick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rickmc3280

So i just found these forums a few days ago.

I'd been having the scraping problem where it pulls my part off of the board. I adjusted the height using the advice in the original post and now my left extruder prints nicely without the right one pulling it off.


Unfortunately the screws holding the extruder in place are not that great and mine was stripped out using the allen wrench that was provided when I tried to calibrate them so that I could use both.

I am considering making another Replicator so I can have 2 of them and just use the other extruder, since it never gets used anyways.

Do you have any advice or insight on how difficult it would be to make another, know where to get the allen screw that is securing the heating element etc?



Rick

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Hi Rick,

The screw is just a simple Grub screw, the same size that is locking in your extruder feeder gear - I have never bought them as a seperate item, but when I buy a hobbed gear, they usually come with a few grub screws (you would have some spares in your other extruder)

But as you said, you may have stripped it a little. This isn't the end of the world.

All that grub screw is doing it pressing against the heating element (the silver bullet thingo) and keeping it in that metal head so it doesn't fall out. It serves no other purpose. The ceramic heater yes, does work a little more efficiently when it is pressed against the metal block inside by the grub screw, but I have also stripped my kossel screw hole - I do not really notice alot of difference. If you are lost and cannot keep the screw tight enough, put the ceramic heater in and tape the absolute crap out of it with the thin kapton tape - basically so the ceramic heater cannot fall out of the metal block.

The hole the heater fits into is pretty snug. It's not exactly flopping around in there so even with it taped together holding it in, it still gets enough contact with the metal block to transfer the heat to the extruder piping.

If you are interested, I designed this to get rid of the little grub screws. It also increases the contact area on the heat barrier tube since it wraps tightly around it. With the stock design the grub screw will always push the tube to one side and leaves an air gap on the grub screw side.

It is designed to be easy to change the extruder heights and set the to exactly the same height.

http://store.wmdproducts.com/index.p...&product_id=62

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jfkansas

If you are interested, I designed this to get rid of the little grub screws. It also increases the contact area on the heat barrier tube since it wraps tightly around it. With the stock design the grub screw will always push the tube to one side and leaves an air gap on the grub screw side.

It is designed to be easy to change the extruder heights and set the to exactly the same height.

http://store.wmdproducts.com/index.p...&product_id=62

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they are for sale now ? buying one!!

Would this upgrade help with Ninjaflex?

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Originally Posted by Geoff

they are for sale now ? buying one!!

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Yep, better hurry. lol But making more...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stigern

Would this upgrade help with Ninjaflex?

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No difference in NinjaFlex. I have an extruder plastic upgrade that works though. PM your email and I will send the files.

This thread is an interesting read but I get slight scraping from either extruder when the other is printing. This suggested a different cause than head and bed levelling. First thing I found was that too much plastic was being extruded - printing a cube with 100% infill delivered a domed top. Having sorted this the problem is less severe but still there. Even the same head will scrape its own layer if it happens to go back over it before the next layer starts. Could it be that I am not setting enough gap between the heads and the platform during levelling, so the plastic is squeezing up around the nozzle? I use a sheet of 80gsm paper, 0.1mm thick, adjusting so the paper just drags but without folding up when pushed. Both nozzles seem to excerpt the same drag once the bed is levelled.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

In an ideal world, the head should be able to be retracted vertically by a small amount when not in use. Thinking about reducing the heavy head mass by switching to a Bowden cable solution, perhaps I can think of a clever way to incorporate a small up/down mechanism. Even wondering if having a sprung head with 0.5mm restricted travel and using the extruder pressure to force the head down could work - probably create more problems somehow!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrankV

In an ideal world, the head should be able to be retracted vertically by a small amount when not in use. Thinking about reducing the heavy head mass by switching to a Bowden cable solution, perhaps I can think of a clever way to incorporate a small up/down mechanism. Even wondering if having a sprung head with 0.5mm restricted travel and using the extruder pressure to force the head down could work - probably create more problems somehow!

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I've been thinking along the same lines recently. Unfortunately, while I have the mechanical and design prowess to come up with a variety of solutions, I don't have the programming knowledge to make any needed changes to the firmware for an active head retraction method. Something passive like your spring retract might work though.