Desperate for bed adhesion !!!!

Good morning.... So i am working with my 2nd printer (FF Creator Pro) and I love this thing... but im experiencing the same issues as with my rostock max v2... I cant get larger ABS prints to adhere to the bed.
I dont want to use a raft, because there seems to be some artifacting.. I tried a brim, but it had enough of a gap to peel again.

I am using PEI, which most folks on this board http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4336 are showing amazing results...

Im running 230 c with ABS and 110c on the print bed.

Would love any assistance to get this thing going.

OR, if anyone has a simplify 3d raft setting that doesnt leave artificating that would be great.
thanks

http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.p...ed-Corner-lift

switch to pla - solved all my abs problems :-)
Or use a raft. I can print most things in abs as long as I use a raft.

But pla on blue tape just works.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

switch to pla - solved all my abs problems :-)
Or use a raft. I can print most things in abs as long as I use a raft.

But pla on blue tape just works.

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dont have a choice.. customer wants ABS :) I dont mind using a raft. I just need/want good settings so that I dont have a tough time getting it off, and it doesnt leave a ton of artifacts on the bottom.

Hairspray! Works everytime!

tried it... ive tried everything, trust me... except the little circles in the corner...
This print is dense, lots of plastic, a huge broad base and cand dissipate that heat very well... so it curls...
im testing the circles in the corner method now.. ill keep you posted :)

Have you tried Elmers purple glue stick? I've found prints stick too well when using this method. Also check to make sure your first layer is set right. I found that even a slight variance in my first layer height would cause some serious adhesion issues

The corner circles are essentially selective brimming, when all is said and done. Great for larger pieces (4"+) where you don't want a brim along the entire length.

Is your lift occurring as soon as the first couple of layers are down, or only after you get half a dozen layers down?

If the former, check that your bed is flat and level and the Z height is set properly. If the latter, it's most likely due to the top layers cooling while the bottom is still warm (heated bed), and the countermeasures are to heat the upper layers (heater or heat lamp) or anchor the bottom more firmly (even going two or three layers with your prim/print stamps/davopads.

So ive tried the purple glue.. it works ok.. not for large prints like this.

the curling doesnt happen til there are dozens of layers down, so yeah, its keeping warm down there.. I think too hot to be honest.. i had the bed at 110 c (hotter the better right? ) .
im running this print now with those selective brim circles and 90c bed... It seems to be holding now about 1/2 through a 7 hour print.. Ill post the results when im done.
Problem i find with most regular brims is they arent attached to the print well enough and the print can break free... so this works better for me :).

I hope it works.

Another option is to print the first few layers with the bed at 110C, then reduce the bed temp to 80-90C, so that there's not so much difference between the temperatures of the layers. I really think temperature difference is the cause of your issue. I print ABS with the bed at 70C the whole time - but with hair spray.

How big of a print are we talking? I've printed large blockish items on an 8" (200mm) square bed with the purple gluestick with good results (100c give or take, I don't have control of that). I lay it on thick on the corners, seems to hold well. Then when I have to remove the item, if it's being obstinate, I'll soak the edges with a little water, and that loosens up the glue. Make sure the bed is completely cooled first. I can then remove the glue from the part with some water and cloth.

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Originally Posted by Marm

How big of a print are we talking? I've printed large blockish items on an 8" (200mm) square bed with the purple gluestick with good results (100c give or take, I don't have control of that). I lay it on thick on the corners, seems to hold well. Then when I have to remove the item, if it's being obstinate, I'll soak the edges with a little water, and that loosens up the glue. Make sure the bed is completely cooled first. I can then remove the glue from the part with some water and cloth.

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Trust me, i have exhausted glue stick... 10+ prints of this model with glue sticks, with glue sticks dissolved in water and painted on (amazing by the way). It isnt strong enough.

If the brim circles i just did are not strong enough to hold this print down, glue sure isnt haha.
Im making an even bigger brim now...

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Originally Posted by dunginhawk

Trust me, i have exhausted glue stick... 10+ prints of this model with glue sticks, with glue sticks dissolved in water and painted on (amazing by the way). It isnt strong enough.

If the brim circles i just did are not strong enough to hold this print down, glue sure isnt haha.
Im making an even bigger brim now...

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custom made rectangle brim seemed to do the trick..

Nice.

7890

not so fast my friend... even with the large brim, the corner of the print itself actually pulled away from the brim... this print is insane lol.
I may need to slow way way way down. like 20mm/s first layer and 30 or something for the rest...

Post up a pic.... There may be another option other than adhesion.

not the best pic, but here it is.
I watched the entire first layer go down and it was perfect... as good as ive seen/done.
Its actually pulling away from the brim.

Crazy thing is, this PEI i print on (its amazing btw, like REALLY amazing). holds this part so hard, that i have to level the bed every print... I is insanely hard to get off , but corners once in a while pop.

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/...psy5ghsaxh.jpg

as the print goes on, its pulling away slowly a little bit more.. only this corner though...

Gat temperature readings on that corner compared to others. May have a cold spot.

so im running literally 10mm/s for the first layer and 20mm through the entire print.. 14 hours.. if it comes up from this.. its definately something else :) maybe a cold spot as you say.

104 c in the corner where it curls most, thats through a thin layer of PEI and 1 layer of plastic... so i think its accurate.
woke up this morning and at least 2 corners are still curling.. this is maddening.

You need to compare that spot to other spots that aren't peeling. What are their temperatures?

within 1-2 degrees the same.

I have the same issue, and I'm getting close I think.
I dont think it's a matter of adhesion, since the shrinkage is so strong that it will just peel off regardless.
It seems the secret is ambient temperature. Since ABS shrinks with temperature change, you need to reduce the temperature change that the ABS goes through, and increase the temp-change time. So, run the extruder the coldest you can, run the bed the hottest you can, increase the ambient temp as much as you can, and cool it slowly when it's finished. You can still run the nozzle fan, and since it's now blowing hotter air, it still has a good effect but not so much of a temp-shock for the material.
I'm using cheap nasty ABS, printing on 130c bed temp with hairspray, 50c ish ambient temp and it's getting less and less warpy. Going to install 2x 50W heaters inside the case to raise the ambient temp some more, will report on my findings!

okay how about getting different abs - abs+
A number of coompanies have launched abs + with lower warping and moisture absorprtion.
http://www.trideus.be/en/blogs/live/...r-raush-10653/

just one review.

^^ that's just what we need.
Only if it was a little cheaper!

well there are a number of different makes of abs +
try and find a cheaper one.

Or work out how much abs you've already wasted. If a more expensive filament wastes less - is it actually more expensive ?

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

well there are a number of different makes of abs +
try and find a cheaper one.

Or work out how much abs you've already wasted. If a more expensive filament wastes less - is it actually more expensive ?

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And that is why I run high test gasoline in my car, My efficiency goes up enough to offset the increased cost.

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Originally Posted by whythelolface

Going to install 2x 50W heaters inside the case to raise the ambient temp some more, will report on my findings!

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Got to thinking about this. I quickly planned out putting a DHT sensor on the side of my drip box, about where the middle of the print would be when shrinking/warping would occur, running that to an Arduino nano that would be controlling a heater and fan on the outside of the enclosure. Current sensor on the extruder wires would turn on the fan/heater, with the DHT limiting the ambient air to 50-60c.

Ok... I found that when i print on PEI (which is amazing btw..No glue, no spray, nothing, just the surface) and 120 was WAY too hot... It adhered great, but it took 20 minutes to get it off... was crazy.
so dialed it back to 100 degrees and instead of my customer 1 layer brim, im doing 2 layers on the same brim. .5mm to be exact.
As of 88% done i have NO curling of any kind... so apparently the extra little bit of height in my brim did the trick.
im so thankful i figured this out...
what a mess.

Hey, that's super. Congrats on your success!

what's pei ?
Interested in anything abs sticks to.

Here is a thread discussing it.
Matte on one side (abs) and smooth on the other (pla). works AMAZINGLY well.
http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7452