Garolite Mounting Question

Hello all! New to the forum – And pretty new to 3D printing
I been reviewing the old threads but was unable to get an answer…

I recently started 3D printing and have been working with just PLA
I’d like to print Nylon to make some car parts (nothing mechanical, more like brackets for the engine compartment) that can handle more extreme temperatures

Current setup: Ender 3 V2, Microswiss Direct Drive and Hot end
Will be obtaining: Enclosure

Based on my research, Garolite shows the most promise…
My question is, what am I suppose to attach the Garolite to? Can I use Borosilicate Glass (if so, can I buy a stock Ender Glass plate and attach it to that)? Or am I supposed to invest in a flex plate like Buildtac FlexPlate system (seems a bit pricey so just want to confirm that’s the accepted method before getting it)?

Any other recommendation appreciated!

Also any Nylon Filament suggestion would be helpful, seems like I'm coming across alot of folks saying certain brands aren't actually Nylon even when advertised as such

I have a Garolite plate I put on my Makergear M2. well I tired it out and was not impressed. It just sits on the heated plate after the glass bed is removed. You still need to apply glue stick and I have much better luck with Polymide tape on glass when I do use Nylon which is not often. Easiest to print is Taulman 910 alloy. PETG is does not warp as much as nylon and works well for things that need to be tough. Nylon is very flexible so that can be an issue if you need a rigid part.

talk to gambo - he uses garolite in an ender 3.
And also prints nylon :-)

Hey did someone call!fYes I have been using Garolite (known as Tufnol in UK) almost exclusivly for more than a year with all sorts of filaments. On my ender 3 I have a glass sheet on the heated plate - yes the standard Ender plate will do, The tufnol sheet I use is 1mm thick clamped on top of the glass plate. I use a thin sheet of tufnol so i can bend it to release models with Nylon sometimes the adhesion is very strongIn UK Tufnol can be bought cheaply from people like Trent plastics (https://www.trentplastics.co.uk/) I use the whale grade it is best to buy enough material for several plates because the tufnol is cheap but the carriage charges are more than the material for a single piece. Getting on to Nylon, first realize there are 2 distinctly different types of nylon, nylon 6/66 and nylon12 and a wide range of variation in the detailed chemistry for one reason or another. So all nylon filaments are not equal !! . Last year I tested 7 or 8 brands but could only reliably print with 3. Spectrum PA6 Low warp, Taulman 230 and Taulman Bridge. Both Taulman filaments give flexible results while the Spectrum filament is quiet hard and feels more like Delrin to use.If you would like to PM me I can give you more details of the machine settings I use.

@airscapes
@curious aardvark
@Gambo

Thank you all for your feedback
Unfortunately I don’t know a product equivalent to tufnol in the US. It seems like tufnol is similar but not the same as Garolite? It also appears as if tufnol is some sort of stand alone sheet, whereas the Garolite here are sold with an adhesive backing (this is why I was asking about flexplate systems). I worry based on what Gambo stated, that over time, or even the first print, I’ll tear/damage the Garolite sheet off a glass sheet because of too strong of a bond to the print (they are 40 dollars a sheet here)

Currently I’m attempting to print Taulman3D 910High Heat:
Taulman suggest I use:
Print temp: 285C – 300C (check)
Bed temp: 45C (check)
Print Surface: Glass with PVA (this part is what confuses me given the inconsistent input I’ve read - which Gambo confirmed with what I suspected was nylon is a whole varying class of filaments)
Enclosure: (working on)

-Current setup:
-Ender 3 v2
-MicroSwiss Direct Drive and Hot end
-Fan Housing = https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4408571 = printed in PLA
-BLTouch
-Firmware re-complied to have nozzle reach 295C (it appears that there is a hard limit of 299C to the nozzle that firmware can’t supersede –or I’m not fully understanding the marlin code)
-Filament Drier (upwards of 65C)

Task required before making Nylon Print Attempt:
-Enclosure and a Venting system to blow off the fumes
-Figuring out building surface (this one seems like the one I’ll have the most trouble with)

@Gambo
May I ask what your setup is on here? Or is it not the social etiquette to post such things here?

Tufnol and Garolite are the same thing SRBF for synthetic resin bonded fabric from McMaster- Carr.

The grade used by Taulman is Garolite LE grade but a cheaper grade will do cheap sheets are about $5-6 us dollars for a 12 inch by 12 inch sheet. You really don't want to stick it down to a plate clamp it to the Ender glass plate with document clips. 40 dollars for a stick back sheet of SRPF sounds like a rip off.

I print both Taulman Bridge and spectrum PA6 LW at 250 or 260C bedplate 50 or 60 C.

The upper limit for nozzle temperature is normally set either by having a PTFE lining at 240 260- which you don't have or by the upper limit of the thermistor NTC thermistors don't go beyond 285 or possibly 290 C unless you change to a thermo-couple type temperature sensor which can go way way up.

On the question of etiquette if the conversation is of general interest keep it on the forum but when you get into masses of detail why waste everyone's time.

Another issue with Nylon is it sucks water like a sponge, so be prepared to dry it before every use even stored in vacuum bags..

@Gambo
I’m clearly confused what Garolite is. I tried searching for “SRBF” and “synthetic resin bonded fabric” on McMaster-Carr and the items doesn’t appear to be what I’m looking for. I agree, 40 is very pricey, but I haven't developed a smell test on what the expected prices on things are.

Given what you said about LE grade, would something like this work?:
https://www.mcmaster.com/garolite/easy-to-machine-garolite-le-sheets-and-strips/

If so, and I buy a 12”x12” (or even 24”x24”) sheet, can these materials be cut to dimension (235mmx235mm) with a xacto knife/razor blade? Would cutting it affect its performance or “flatness”? Additionally, if this is the material, what thickness should I be aiming for?

I was able to reprogram the firmware to lift the upper cap of 260. I had attempted to bring it to 300, but at exactly 299, for three iteration, I got a nozzle too hot error. This led me to reprogram the firmware to only go up to 295. I’m unsure of the nozzle temp needed, as I don’t have everything I need for my first nylon attempt yet, but I’m just going off the spec page from Taulman’s which claim their 910 heat nylon should be printed at 285-300. I’m not an engineer by trade and I’m not well versed on the various components of the 3d printer, but can follow instructions very well. So while I functionally understand what thermistor and temperature sensor does, the deeper nuances are lost to me. Is it safe for me to print at 295 with the stock thermistor and temperature sensor on an Ender 3 v2? Or would I need to research upgrading them to avoid a short or burn out?

@airspaces

I’m converting a food dehydrator into a filament dryer/holding box while printing. The dehydrator is rated for 70C. My plan was to dry it for 12 hours at 65C prior to attempting my first nylon print.

I have to do some research on what vacuum bags to use during storage. It seems the ones I’ve encounter so far have complaints about punctures. I’ve also considered food saver vacuum systems, but it doesn’t appear as if the community has co-opted this the same way they had with food dehydrator.

Thank you all the feedback!

Your dehydrator is perfect it is what I use. The bags I use don't last but a few uses and I get them at the dollar store when they have them in stock. They last longer if you put the spool in the plastic bag it came in and that in the vacuum bag. I did fine smaller ones on ebay that fit better but were a few cents more..
The 910 comes in 2 flavors.. the original and high temp.. The original is 250-255 https://taulman3d.com/alloy-910-spec.html
The Garolite I have I bought from a machinist on the MakerGear forum for $50. He made several for himself and was selling them. He milled it smooth (not as flat as the glass plate but close). It still needs glue stick for nylon to stick and you can not go over 80C on the bed or it will warp, which means I can't print ABS on it and I hate changing beds and redoing Z offset. So you may want to just try some polymide tape on your glass plate and put a little glue stick on it.. Lot cheaper and works well. None of the nylon I have printed needed to be printed over 260C. BTW Garolite is Fiberglass https://www.google.com/search?q=what...hrome&ie=UTF-8
Garolite is the brand of G10 so search "G10 sheet"

Polymide bed tape here https://www.makergear.com/products/polyimide

@airscapes
I’m looking specifically at the Taulman 910 high temp one. I’m looking to print a number of parts for various other hobbies, but one part will be a bracket that’s going in the engine compartment of a car. Therefore I am aiming for the high temp version – it’s said that they have a 150C thermal resistance after annealing. There is the Taulman PA Cast Plate Nylon, with a supposed 185C thermal resistance after annealing, but since the filament is so new, I can’t get much confirmation or information about it.

The Polyimide tape appears to show some promise, but cover a glass plate with a narrow roll would leave lines on a printed model’s surface?


Something like this:

https://www.makergear.com/collection...20387220586594

seem better, but then it starts getting into the price issues since I’d have to cut it to size (235mmx235mm)

Has anyone printed nylon on glass with just PVA? I know Taulman suggest that for their filament, but it doesn’t appear like anyone I encounter on forum or YouTube does that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AsianGuy

@airscapes
I’m looking specifically at the Taulman 910 high temp one. I’m looking to print a number of parts for various other hobbies, but one part will be a bracket that’s going in the engine compartment of a car. Therefore I am aiming for the high temp version – it’s said that they have a 150C thermal resistance after annealing. There is the Taulman PA Cast Plate Nylon, with a supposed 185C thermal resistance after annealing, but since the filament is so new, I can’t get much confirmation or information about it.

The Polyimide tape appears to show some promise, but cover a glass plate with a narrow roll would leave lines on a printed model’s surface?


Something like this:

https://www.makergear.com/collection...20387220586594

seem better, but then it starts getting into the price issues since I’d have to cut it to size (235mmx235mm)

Has anyone printed nylon on glass with just PVA? I know Taulman suggest that for their filament, but it doesn’t appear like anyone I encounter on forum or YouTube does that.

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Yes it leaves a line, but with water floating the tape in place it can be rather thin.. it is 3d printed.. whats another line.. it is nothing but lines ;-)
Yes I have printed on just glass with glue but warping is always the issue.. an enclosure with heat also helps with the warping. This mount almost sounds like you should be using aluminum.. just have it made and save a lot of time, hassle and maybe money trying to use Nylon, which I am going to bet you will not be happy with the end result, especially if it is a one off part.. sometimes just because you can do something, does not mean you should. Rather than just diving into the deep end, buy a roll of standard 910 and print some parts on glass and see how things go.. you can always try new bed surfaces..

Yes the Garolite you give with the link to is ok but a dear grade talk to McMaster-Carr their CE grade will do.I just cut mine to size with a craft knife. I use 1mm thick but in us seem to have 1/32 inch which I think would be a bit thin so 1/16 inch I guess 1.6mm. Sand the surface enough to remove al trace of shine and then clamp it down to the glass bed all round. I've never had to machine the surface but level it carefully and sometimes a slip paper under any low spots cures that problem. As I said I only print 3 grades of nylon and have never used any adhesion promotion with them just the sanded and cleaned Garolite. The only time I use PVA glue stick withNylon on Garolite is when there is a large surface of the print on the build plate when I use glue stick to REDUCE the adhesion so I can get the part off without damaging the Garolite surface/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gambo

Yes the Garolite you give with the link to is ok but a dear grade talk to McMaster-Carr their CE grade will do.I just cut mine to size with a craft knife. I use 1mm thick but in us seem to have 1/32 inch which I think would be a bit thin so 1/16 inch I guess 1.6mm. Sand the surface enough to remove al trace of shine and then clamp it down to the glass bed all round. I've never had to machine the surface but level it carefully and sometimes a slip paper under any low spots cures that problem. As I said I only print 3 grades of nylon and have never used any adhesion promotion with them just the sanded and cleaned Garolite. The only time I use PVA glue stick withNylon on Garolite is when there is a large surface of the print on the build plate when I use glue stick to REDUCE the adhesion so I can get the part off without damaging the Garolite surface/

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What grit sand paper, maybe mine is too smooth?

65c is too high to dry filament.
For dehydrating purposes you want to be down around 40c.
It's the airflow more than the heat that does the dehydrating.

With a roll of filament you need to bear in mind that it's just the outer layers of filament that are exposed to moisture in th atmosphere.
The inner filament stays dry.
If you 'dry' it at 65-70c all you are doing is raising the core temp to the point where it will begin to soften. As its wrapped really tight, you are quite likely to deform the filament which will cause more problems with your printing than the actual moisture.

Don't use the really cheap flying saucer dehydrators you get in the states (alas we only get the decent ones over here) go for an excalibur type - one with a thermostat and temperature control.

drying is NOT cooking.
To be honest a sealed bag with some silicon dehumidifier sachets is a better option anyway and use the dehydrator to re-condition the sachets.


As far as damaging the print surface. I use printbite on my delta - a form of PEI.
worst stick i had was with mymat (italian company) nylon.
I ended up using a metal chisel and hammer to remove the test print.
The printbite was completely unscathed. I've been using the same sheet for about 4 years now and it's as good as the day i got it.
It's expensive stuff - but worth every penny.

On my sapphire pro I went the other way, and bought the cheapest self adhesive sheet of PEI I could find.
Works really well - not quite as good at releasing as the printbite - but as long as you get your print settings right I have had no problems removing things.

But where chemistry goes - listen to gambo, he genuinely knows what he's talking about ;-)

240 Grit foam back 3ms

Thank you all again for the feedback!

@airscapesI can see how based on what I shared, I’m over engineering a solution to a minor problem. I glossed over dozens of parts I want to print, because the printer right now seems more than capable of it. However the one part that requires special consideration is the piece that I plan to put in the engine compartment of a car. Others have done this, but in PLA, and they had complained about it sagging, I wanted to get ahead of the problem and use something that was temperature resistant. Unfortunately this part isn’t purchasable in aluminum because it is very much a do it yourself project.

@gamboThank you for confirming the product from McMaster. I think based on what was shared, I’ll try PVA on glass first and then the garolite variant you mentioned from McMaster to compare the results. As @airspaces had inquired, what level of “scuff” did you get it to? Finally, what is your PVA formulation? Do you use magigoo or did you just mix 50/50 water and elmer’s all glue?

@curisou aardvarkThank you for the heads up, I hadn’t thought about filament deformation, I wouldof clearly baked the filament. Most sources I saw said to use around 55C to 60C. I’m not entirely sure what you meant by Excalibur type? I’m thinking that’s a jargon I’m not familiar with. I specifically got this because of the temperature control:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

From my research, dehydrating would reduce the water content of a filament, whereas using desiccant only maintains it? I read some folks dislike the desiccant route because if you buy them in bulk, they are often loose and the powder can get on the filament and muck up the nozzle


I plan to heat my enclosure, would having that at 40C be ideal?

Hi
Scuff Levwl. I sand the surface of the Tufnol/Garolite with a 240 grit abrasive pad until the surface is matt all over with no trace of shine, this only takes a couple of mins.

The PVA I use only to REDUCE Nylon's grip on the tufnol is glue stick like elmer's school glue I apply it while the print bed is warm.

Pleas note that I have only had success with a small number of brands of filament 3 out of 6 or 7 I tried!! unfortunately they were all premium brands!!

One last thought on the car part.. Why not print it in PETG first and test it out while you are working on the upgrades to your printer. You may find that PETG printed at 98% infill does the job and if not you have verified you part and nylon will print with the same settings as PETG just need to adjust the temps..

@Gambo


Thank you for the information, I feel much more equip to tackle Nylon if the glass bed doesn’t work!
Is Taulman3D a premium brand? I’m so new I don’t know what is considered premium or overpriced. What’s your view about Makerbot nylon? I was also considering that


@airscapes


I don’t know too much about PETG, does it have any off gas?
In your opinion, what are the pro and cons of PETG vs. Nylon?

Do a goggle search for 3d filament comparison and read about each type and it's pros and cons and spec.
These are just 2 of many article
https://all3dp.com/1/3d-printer-fila...g-3d-filament/
https://rigid.ink/pages/filament-comparison-guide