Recommendation Needed: Small Footprint, Large Capacity, under $1k?

Hi there. Looking to buy my first 3D printer. Specifically, looking for a kit. I'm a handy guy (DIY just about anything electronic) and up for the project. Considerations:

1) Small footprint. I live in NYC (obvi) so it's gotta be efficiently-sized.
2) Large build volume. Hah! Small but big, see? Like the Dr. Who phone boothey thing.
3) Under $1K.
4) Good public support because I like to ask questions.
5) Heated Bed

I am leaning toward a delta style printer because they have a good footprint to build area ratio, but there seem to be about 3,432,431 kits out there to build. This seems to be the go-to recommendation for first timers:

https://www.seemecnc.com/collections...x-complete-kit

Why would I buy that, though, when I can get this, which seems to have all the upgrades I'd want out of a rostock anyway?

http://www.ultibots.com/kossel-250-v-slot-bse-3d-printer-diy-kit-beta/

[actually on second thought this has a poor build envelope to footprint ratio. Off the list!]

What can I do with it? What CAN'T I do with it that I should be able to do? Would I be crazy to go with this instead?

https://folgertech.com/collections/3...3d-printer-kit

Or... this has a great footprint to build volume ratio, even though it's not a kit or a delta!

https://printrbot.com/shop/assembled...rintrbot-plus/

Any thoughts on not buying a kit and just buying a hatchbox alpha instead?

http://www.megalowmart.com/hatchbox-alpha-3dprinter.html

It has a tremendous build to footprint ratio and pretty good reviews/support.

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

Hi

Ok, you have a budget, that's a good thing. Do you have an idea of what you want to print? A printer that will print nothing but candle holders (tall skinny items) has a really good footprint. Unless items that are 3" in diameter and 24" tall are all you want to print, it's not an ideal printer to buy.

Do you know what sort of materials you want to work with? There are lots of options and some printers do not handle all of them. A printer that only handles PLA may be fine if PLA is all you want to work with. If you have your heart set on printing Nylon, a different printer might be called for.

How big is to big? Is 12" x 12" x 12" out of the question? Is 24" x 24" x 24" ok if it also can be used as a coffee table?

Based on the printers you have listed, I'd toss MakerFarm into the list.

http://www.makerfarm.com/index.php/12-pegasus-kit.html

I'd go with the single extruder basic version as a first time printer.

Bob

Thanks for the input and the suggestion! I think 20" square is my max footprint, so the maker you suggested and the Folger FT-5 are just barely pushing it. Assuming I go Delta, is the ultibot a worthy upgrade over the seemecnc?

Hi

I don't think that the delta approach is a good one unless you have very specific print requirements. The Cartesian printers are generally much better general purpose / starter printers.

One example:

The delta guys like to talk about diameters. Their print surface is circular so this makes a lot of sense. Cartesian guys talk about X and Y. Let's say they both are talking about 10". I can print a 10" diameter item on the delta or the X/Y. If I go to a square base object, I can print a 10" x 10" on the X/Y printer. I can only get to about 7" square.

A very biassed observation:

You might question the use of the same number for each printer. You get a different result if you use area. These days a "small" printer is 8" diameter (or X/Y). A medium sized machine is 10" diameter (or X/Y) and a fairly large X/Y printer is 12". On the list of printers you have found, the delta printers are a bit more expensive than the X/Y's for a given size build pate (8" diameter vs 8" X/Y). If you do a comparison based on cost, the delta comes out even worse.

Why focus on the size of the build plate rather than the height? Most stuff that you see built other than demo prints of a vase, is shorter in Z than the max dimension in the X/Y plane.

There is no denying that a delta has a very cool look to it. It is a great conversation piece in that respect. The effector is designed to be very light weight, so that gives you speed. You get some issues as a result of that same decision (Bowden tubes etc).

Bob

Lets not forget something about Delta printers and that is the higher the print goes the more in has to go in. Basically a Delta printer prints in a cone shape due to how the mechanics works.

Hi

One other subtle point:

Some printers have heated beds, some do not. On a heated bed printer, the properly heated area is what sets the size of the build platform. On a printer with an unheated bed, the size is a bit more arbitrary. Comparing a heated bed to an unheated bed may leave out the "what if I don't heat the heated bed printer?" option. In the case of the printer in front of me, the bed would go from 12x 12 to roughly 13.5 x 13.5. I feel that having a heated bed is a needed thing on a printer. Some manufacturers don't seem to agree.

The same issues that make a Delta print a cone, also mean that it actually prints something other than a circle at the base. It is possible to have an odd looking print area on a Delta and get a bit more "area". The obvious question is how useful that area is.

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

One other subtle point:

Some printers have heated beds, some do not. On a heated bed printer, the properly heated area is what sets the size of the build platform. On a printer with an unheated bed, the size is a bit more arbitrary. Comparing a heated bed to an unheated bed may leave out the "what if I don't heat the heated bed printer?" option. In the case of the printer in front of me, the bed would go from 12x 12 to roughly 13.5 x 13.5. I feel that having a heated bed is a needed thing on a printer. Some manufacturers don't seem to agree.

The same issues that make a Delta print a cone, also mean that it actually prints something other than a circle at the base. It is possible to have an odd looking print area on a Delta and get a bit more "area". The obvious question is how useful that area is.

Bob

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Very true and Delta printers don't do straight lines all that well since it is having to interpolate what a straight line is, unlike a Cartesian printer. You can see this on the prints with long walls as it has a sort of moire pattern to it due to that.

Hi

Delta's drive with threaded rods. X/Y's often have belts for at least one axis. There is a lot of debate about the accuracy of belts vs rods. Delta's have some really tricky bearings right at the effector and some non-trivial bearings back at the rods. All of the bearing stuff needs to be very consistent and fully modeled in the driver software.Net result is that it is a bit harder to get a real Delta to be accurate than an X/Y.

If you like playing with things, you will likely get into dropping modifications onto your printer. Most of the action is at the print head. On a Delta, the part that carries the print head is designed to be very small and light. That limits your ability to add things like auto bed leveling, print cooling fans, and second extruders to a Delta. You *can* design a Delta with a nice big carrier, but you slow things down a bit. If your delta has 2 meter drive rods ... that may not be a major drawback. :)

There are at least three major filament families these days. Two of them are not really happy printing on a un-heated bed. At the price point you are looking at, simply cross off any printer that does not have a heated bed. You *can* afford to get one, so don't scrimp in that area.

I realize this isn't helping much at all in your quest to pick between two Delta printers ... :)

Bob

Thank you for the feedback. The thing is, I have lots of vertical space, but little horizontal "footprint" space. Now adding the hatchbox alpha into the mix:

https://www.amazon.com/HATCHBOX-3D-P.../dp/B01C6H8V9G

Stellar reviews, though not a kit :(

never used a delta, like watching them. One thing nobody else has mentioned is that deltas are pretty much all bowden printers.
So flexible filaments are always going to struggle - it's a long way to push a flexible filament and still expect precise amounts to be extruded at the other end.

So bear that in mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

never used a delta, like watching them. One thing nobody else has mentioned is that deltas are pretty much all bowden printers.
So flexible filaments are always going to struggle - it's a long way to push a flexible filament and still expect precise amounts to be extruded at the other end.

So bear that in mind.

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There is hope about the Bowden as Lin Engineering has made some Nema 14 and 17 motors with enough torque to extrude with a 3:1 gear AND is only about 12mm deep.

the other option I really like is flex3drive: http://mutley3d.com/Flex3Drive/

I'm surprised that you aren't seeing the manufacturers using this type setup on all bowden setups. Gives you the best of both worlds. Lightness of a bowden extruder and the control of a direct drive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

the other option I really like is flex3drive: http://mutley3d.com/Flex3Drive/

I'm surprised that you aren't seeing the manufacturers using this type setup on all bowden setups. Gives you the best of both worlds. Lightness of a bowden extruder and the control of a direct drive.

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Hi

That is sort of a subtle gotcha with some of these kits. They seem to go into hibernation design wise for quite a while. They sell the "same old design" until something happens (sales drop off, they get bored, people on forums yell at them). Once they wake up, they do this and that to upgrade the design.

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

the other option I really like is flex3drive: http://mutley3d.com/Flex3Drive/

I'm surprised that you aren't seeing the manufacturers using this type setup on all bowden setups. Gives you the best of both worlds. Lightness of a bowden extruder and the control of a direct drive.

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Flex3Drive has been out for a long time now (long in the electronics world) and over on the RepRap forums they had a discussion about it and it is not without issues. From what I gathered it is better to just go with a Bowden due to the cabling and some other things. Been a while since I read that thread, or even heard of this product being mentioned, so go grab a look over on the RepRap forums to see what is good, and bad, with its design.

There are lots of options and some printers do not handle all of them, If you like playing with things, you will likely get into dropping modifications onto your printer. A printer that only handles PLA may be fine if PLA is all you want to work with. If you have your heart set on printing Nylon, a different printer might be called for.