Lets Talk "Air Cleaner"

Ok, I'm new to 3D Printing and all that goes along with it. I've been reading about some of the "hazzards" of printing inside a small room, and while I don't think there has been any "real" empirical studies on the matter, it has lead me to think about how to clean some of those particles up while printing.

Thoughts: (As they pertain to FFC Pro in a room that doesn't allow for external exhausting)

1) Would guess that it's better to recirculate within the enclosure, as apposed to drawling air through the machine and filtering on the way out? (to keep interior temperatures from dropping)
2) Would guess this filtration system should be located high in the enclosure or in the canopy? (I would think that the particulate would be carried up with heat)
3) Not sure what filtering material that would be needed, but I would guess that <.3 microns would be required?

What makes you believe printing creates a lot of fine particles?

I would think any hazards would be more associated with gasses from melting plastic.

From what I've been reading, it's the nano-particles from melting ABS that's seems to be the concern.

I think that this is a little bit overblown. I have been in injection mold shops for over 20 years and they don't run air purification systems or protective respirators. . Injection molding ABS in molds the size of a TV set frame all day if this was a serious problem they would have had to address it. I am not saying it's good for you but beyond the smell I doubt you are in much danger in the amounts we are working with.

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Originally Posted by Todd-67

I think that this is a little bit overblown. I have been in injection mold shops for over 20 years and they don't run air purification systems or protective respirators. . Injection molding ABS in molds the size of a TV set frame all day if this was a serious problem they would have had to address it. I am not saying it's good for you but beyond the smell I doubt you are in much danger in the amounts we are working with.

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Perhaps, but I would be surprised to hear they don't have proper ventilation in those shops (which is not the case for my room). As I alluded to in my first post, I'm not convinced it's a problem either, at least not until I see some empirical evidence of such..

At this point it's more of an exercise to see if I can come up with a "solution" with the FFCP in mind. If not just for some odor control.

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Originally Posted by ServiceXp

From what I've been reading, it's the nano-particles from melting ABS that's seems to be the concern.

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don't use abs :-)

Now you sound like my doctors..... Me: "My knee hurts right here when I jog...." Dr: "Well, you should stop jogging....." :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ServiceXp

From what I've been reading, it's the nano-particles from melting ABS that's seems to be the concern.

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Thanks for bringing this up. Fortunately, so far I've only done a limited amount of ABS printing.

Article

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Conclusions: In this work, we present some of the first known measurements of which we are aware of UFP emissions from commercially available desktop 3D printers. Emission rates of total UFPs were approximately an order of magnitude higher for 3D printers utilizing an ABS thermoplastic feedstock relative to a PLA feedstock: ∼1.9 × 10¹¹ # min⁻¹ compared to ∼2.0 × 10¹⁰ # min⁻¹. However, both can be characterized as “high emitters” of UFPs. These results suggests caution should be used when operating some commercially available 3D printers in unvented or inadequately filtered indoor environments. Additionally, more controlled experiments should be conducted to more fundamentally evaluate aerosol emissions from a wider range of desktop 3D printers and feedstocks.

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Originally Posted by robosmith

Thanks for bringing this up. Fortunately, so far I've only done a limited amount of ABS printing.

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I wonder how this compares to 2d laser printers.....

I think this design has promise, but because the FFCP is so "leaky" it's going to be somewhat of a challenge making it work without a ton of modifications..

I started thinking about re-routing the electrical and filament passage ways to fit a solid (and sealable) top cover, but then I thought.........

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Originally Posted by ServiceXp

Now you sound like my doctors..... Me: "My knee hurts right here when I jog...." Dr: "Well, you should stop jogging....." :rolleyes:

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And your doctor would be right - jogging is one of the worst things you can do to your knees and ankles.

But it still remains - abs is problematical, dimensionally irrational, smells bad and - hypothetically - might put out the merest fraction of hazardous substances as even the smallest petrochemical based engine.
So why use it when there are so many infinitely better alternatives ?

Remember some years ago when mobile phones were going to cause brain cancer ?
And in 2000 when the world was going to be plunged into zombie infested armageddon because computers only had a 2 digit date code ?
Or when the ozone layer was going to vanish and we were all going to die from skin cancer ?
Or last week when someone said we'd all die if we ate or drank from a 3d printed object ?

Worrying about particles given off by very small amounts of melted plastic is on a level with those scares :-)
ie: there are a thousand things you should be worried about that will kill you long long before anything from your 3d printer will even cause you to have a sniffle.

Actually abs is bloody dangerous - but only because you end up using a lot of acetone and exposure to acetone vapour is extremely bad for your health ! Not to mention highly flammable.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

But it still remains - abs is problematical, dimensionally irrational

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Only if you don't know what you're doing. There is a reason that ABS is one of the most used plastics in the molding industry. The post processing options for printing are also greater.

I've got a Dreamer and downloaded this: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:415950 to vent to the outside....

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There is a reason that ABS is one of the most used plastics in the molding industry.

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yeah it's cheap and a pretty good all rounder.

But modern pla is better for 3d printing.

You do need to use the right pla. The best I've used to date is the reprapper tech co ltd.
It's every bit as durable and bendy as abs. almost zero warp, harder and prettier than abs and it smells a lot nicer.

The problem is that the materials chemists have moved on in leaps and bounds but people who have been 3d printing for a few years - haven't. They still believe that abs is better than pla in many ways. When in actual fact - these days it just isn't.
And sure I can resize every model I design by 1% to get it fairly close to the model dimensions. OR I can just print with pla and it'll be bang on without my having to mess with anything.
Plus I don't have to breath in acetone vapour - and that will cause anosmia (among other things), which is no joke.

Then there are numerous other materials - all easier to use and stronger and tougher than abs, yeah they might cost a few quid more. But the advantages massively outweigh the cost factor.
In short - there just is no need to use abs for 3d printing.

Sorry we agree to disagree. Yours is an opinion based on ease of use. Mine is fact based on real world application of prototyping professional engineered parts and light production. You admittedly don't post process your prints nor use them for commercial use. PLA does not have the impact resistance of ABS, does not have the the flexibility to make reliable snap fits and is not environmentally stable. ABS also allows better options for finishing.

I do agree that PLA is way easier for noobies to print with. For most making figurines and other decorative, arty prints it probably is a better fit if they are not knowledgeable about the performance of modern thermo-plastics but is no way superior to anything. This is why there are no real broad based uses of it in industry yet.

I do appreciate your contributing to forums but sometimes your advice is just plain wrong such as advising against heating the hot end before changing nozzles. Aluminum has a higher thermal rating than does brass so it expands at a greater degree allowing for easier removal. This is why they use Aluminum in heated beds and hot ends. Much like why a mechanic uses a torch to heat stuck lug nuts. The nut has less mass than does the stud that is attached to the hub so it expands faster allowing for easy removal. Rather than regurgitating what you have read on the internet like it is fact you might want to invest in an engineering degree.

I work with these resins for a living and have been for over 25 years with world patents to back it up. I do agree that the things that they have advanced in with PLA have been remarkable and that it has a solid place in the 3D printing market but it is in no way a one size fits all solution. All thermal-plastics have a use that is why there are so many of them. I wouldn't use ABS for a bearing or gear where nylon is superior for it's lubricity nor would I use ABS for optical quality glasses where polycarbonate is superior for clairity and impact strength. Are you getting where I am going with this........

I used ABS solely for a dishwasher internal part. It did not deform like the PLA version did.

90% of my 3D prints will end up outside for 6-7 weeks a year, and in the Australian summer the UV levels are not exactly low, so I don't think PLA is exactly the right choice for me. Plus I want some of the items to last for longer periods of time inside cases, so I intend to push forward with ABS printing almost all my parts. Even a short term test of an opaque PLA and ABS LED Light cover, of which I will have 400-600 in my Christmas Light show this year, showed that the PLA did not even last 3 weeks before it started to show serious signs of environmental damage, and anti-UV coatings did help a little and I think I could get 2 seasons out of the PLA items with a bit of luck, but I have had ABS items out for 5 months straight now, and they are still not showing any damage.

I've kinda wondered about that too. ABS in the Summer, PLA in the Winter....