3d Printer options for scale models (DLP vs FDM)

Hi all,

First post here, new member and looking forward to contribute and learn.

I have been reading a lot recently about my options for a (my first) 3d printer. I would really appreciate your input/feedback concerning my choices. I got a shortlist of models and specs/needs that i have.

Main task for the printer to be able to provide pro-level prototypes for scale models in a pro-workshop environment. I understand that this might skyrocket the price if combined with build-volume. For this reason, i must say that i do not mind post-processing the parts printed at all as long as the material is sandable etc like polystyrene (HIPS) or resin (i am used at working with HIPS and resin scale models).

So what are my needs in short:

1. reliability-dependability, (i need it as a work tool)
2. quality of prints (50 microns at least). As i said, i could post-process something (to eliminate layers by sanding/priming/using putty)but if i can avoid/limit then thats better...
3. decent volume (although i could get a small DLP and simply assemble a bigger prototype based on smaller parts)
4. locally available (i am in Europe), including parts.
5, Would be ideal to be able to use HIPS (since i am used to styrene) instead of PLA if i opt for an FDM machine.
6. Linux only here, so the slicer should be open-source (cura?) and linux compatible.

Having (hopefully) understood the basics (post processing of resin prints with cleaning/curing, abs/hips needing specific temps/enclosures etc...), and reading a lot of reviews/forums/videos, i made a small shortlist of machines that theoretically should fit the bill.


FDM 1. Prusa i3 Mk3 (ok volume, 50 microns, nice features, kit building will teach me a lot, pre-built one has 2-years warranty...)
FDM 2. Creality CR-10S (or S4) (hearing a lot about this, superb volume, 50 microns quality of print?)
FDM 3. Wanhao Duplicator 6 (promising 20 micron quality to rival the dlp? - 20x20x17.5cm volume, decent but significantly less than the mk3 and cr-10s)

DLP 1. Wanhao Duplicator 7 Plus (looks ideal with respect to print quality. I wont need to post process the parts, but i would need to split my designs in parts having the building volume as my constraint.)

Some comments-closing remarks:

1. I do not mind upgrading a printer (i don't like to spend time troubleshooting though...).
2. I also do not mind kits since i will learn a lot with respect to the mechanics of the machine (as long as it is not problematic that gets me to endless loops of troubleshooting)
3. I understand the benefits of high-quality/cost options such as ultimaker 3, form-2 etc... but i want to start with something less costly (less than 1000euros).
4. I could also consider a combination of 2 printers...like a DLP D7 and a cheaper FDM as long as the total cost does not overshoot 1000eu significantly.

Thank you VERY much for your time and replies and apologies for the lengthy (and possibly tiring) post.

PS. If you think that another machine of similar cost would fit in better please feel free to recommend.

coule of points. fdm at 0.02mm layer height - forget it. that's fifty layers per mm - you might manage one print a week. Plus I honestly do not believe any lower range fdm machine can accurately do that anyway.

You'll probably find that 0.1mm is more than sufficient.
Hips filament is commonly available - never used it myself but don't recall anyone saying it's a problem material. Commonly used as supports as it's soluble in limonene.

Also bear in mind resolution on an fdm nachine is defined by 2 parameters. Layer height and nozzle diameter. If you were going to regularly print at 0.05mm then you'd also need a 0.2-0.25mm diameter nozzle. Otherwise, what's the point. So that dramatically increases the printing time yet agin. Oddly, the smaller the nozzle the slower you end up printing.
It's all to do with material viscosity and flow and back pressure.

It sounds like you might be better off with dlp or sla
The wanhao dup 7 is a smart looking bit of kit. Price wise it's about a 1/4 of comparable sla/dlp machines.
And while the width of a print is pretty narrow - the height is not and you can always print vertically. Plus it has speed and resolution. 35mm and hour -that's about 50x faster than fdm at equivalent resolution.

You could probably get by with an fdm machine, but you would be talking exceptionally long print times and a lot of post processing.
with a resin machine you lose most of the issues.

If the wanhao is anywhere near as good as they say - then at that price point it genuinely isa game changer.
Resins are currently really bloody expensive, but that can only change for the better as more people start producing cheaper resin machines, the resin prices have to drop.

Many thanks curious aardvark for the detailed reply! You raise some very important points that help me a lot with my decision.

I presume that even if i use variable layer size the FDM is going to be extremely slower than the DLP (ie 200 microns for interior layers and 50 microns for visible exterior ones). Right?

Based on what i understand and your valuable input i am better off starting with a D7 dlp and use the remaining budget for an FDM using it for 100-200 micron framework for larger models.

yep was going to suggest getting a cheap fdm as well.
It's not that they are bad - fdm is an amazing technology and the sheer variety of filaments makes it an extremely useful thing to have.
But for small detailed models, resin is the way to go :-)

formlabs have actually printed clear lenses with their form2. That's impressve. It's also about 6x more expensive than the wanhao :-)

You would have problems using two different layer heights on the same layers.
What you can do is have different layer heights for different vertical heights of the print. You can also have different layer heights for different models printed at the same time. But tryig to mix different layer heights on the same levels is just asking for trouble.
Even a delta with a long thin nozzle would struggle.

They're still pretty new but the d7 looks pretty good and wanhao do have a good track record with their printers.
Definitely interested to see how you get on with it :-)

Point taken on the two different layer heights and thank you very much for the informative details.

All my attention is now on the D7. I think i should opt for the "plus" model instead of the v1.5 so that i do not need the extra nano-dlp module. I suppose it will load/read any stl regardless of it's origin (linux) right?

yep.
I usually suggest you get simplify 3d, which has linux versions.
But check the wanhao software first - their fdm slicer is pretty good and there are differences in what you can print with a resin system than an fdm. Pretty much all positive I think. You can get away with steeper angles and larger overhangs than you can with fdm. You should be able to print straight out at right angles. Obviously unconnected ted parts will still need supports, but generally you have a lot more leeway in design with a resin based machine.

useful video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHXFTpLdR48
Watch that. The marvin at the end is immaculate ! No visible build lines - you could definitely make working lenses.
Looks like it might be worth making a curing box with a uv light in it.

many of the videos on youtube are from last year - when the machine was basically still in development. So look out for videos from 2018 :-)

Looks like they just use cura, which i can't stand. Also wanhao recommend simplify 3d. So that's good.
As far as I can see it's all available for linux :-)

Very nice video and very informative, thank you very much once more!

The software showed on the video though looks like windows only. From what i understood the D7 reads cws files which you create using this creation workshop d7 software. Did i understand this correctly?

http://www.buildyourownsla.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=97
there you go :-)
creation workshop will run under mono on linux.
I have no clue what that means - but it's in the link above :-)

https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_...seq=1&format=2

Monoprice rebadge a bunck of wanhao and flashforge printers - above is the one they sell - doesn't look like the plus. Also a review worth reading. Pretty much confirms what the guy in the video said, but adds a couple things worth knowing :-)
The plus has a usb port for files and does NOT need to be attached to a computer. You really don't want that for a long print.

Many thanks for the further info. I did some reading in the meanwhile,

It seems that the CW software is windows only. The older versions could run under mono on linux (the first link you provided) but i haven't read anything similar for the current ones (provided by wanhao).

I am also looking into the anycubic photon which is similar to the D7, and trying to figure out if it has a linux version. It seems that it is using a similar program to CW possibly running via wine.

I suppose not all slicers are able to export to cws formats that the D7 reads via the usb right?

I hope i ll be able to sort it out since the no-linux friendly software is a dealbreaker to me.

older slicer/creation workshop shouust as well.
Presumably the cws file consists of a series layer masks, rather than the instruction set of gcode based machine.

the photon doesn't look as good as the wanhao. Is cheaper though. But no hint of a linux version.

the thing to do is to try and get the software to work first.

Have a look at this: https://www.nanodlp.com/

http://slic3r.org/download
slic3r claims to support dlp - linux versions.
https://octoprint.org/

probably worth a look.

curious aardvark, many thanks for the much appreciated help once more!!!

I will definitely look into the software first. In the meantime with respect to the FDM choices, i was thinking about a CR-10S (possibly the S4). Would that be a sound choice (requiring post processing, working with HIPS and PLA) or i am better off with an i3 MK3?

I ll get back to the DLP when i ll get more info on software solutions and inform this post accordingly.

if you're getting an i3 - then the prusa i3 mk3 is definitely the best on the market.

Just got a lot more cool features than the cr10 :-)
Not cheap, but probably worth the money.

can you run a windows emulator under linux ?

yep, apparently you can: https://itsfoss.com/use-windows-applications-linux/

so either wine or a virtual box - if you need any install software, pm me :-)

Virtual boxes are fun. But wine sounds really interesting. Might install ubuntu on something and have a play. Haven't looked at linux for a while.

Yes supposedly wine helps with windows based software so i will give it a try before getting a D7.

In the meantime i am intrigued by the good reviews of the CR-10S and it's build volume in comparison to the MK3. (and it is 350eu cheaper).

Thank you VERY much again for the wealth of information and help!

you do get what you pay for. whole lot of newer tech and better quality kit in the prusa.
The cr10 is a decent kit, but nothing like the prusa mk3.

Thing is most 3d printers are pretty good.
You wnat a bigger print volume: https://tevo3dprinterstore.com/produ...3d-printer-kit
I'm a huge fan of deltas. faster, quieter, less vibration and at least as good a quality print as the cartesian machines.
To put into perspective. My he3d k200 £200 kit, can print quality on the slowest setting I use with it, faster than my makerbot clones print at top speed.

Gotcha curious aardvark! Will look into the Mk3 kit and the delta solutions as well!

Many thanks!

Ok, took some time checking out printers, softwares etc.... i decided not going the resin/dlp route for the time being.

Instead i am focusing on the Prusa i3 Mk3 and the CR-10S.

I am leaning towards the Mk3 despite being 30% to 40% more expensive than the CR10S (in kit form). It looks more linux-friendly and more refined (Slic3r PE and PrusaControl do look VERY nice instead of trying to figure out/refine profiles in Cura for the CR-10S). Am i right in thinking that it will provide better quality prints and being more reliable down the road?

As a reminder, i plan to be printing in HIPS almost exclusively, and i am a bit worried if the CR-10S will be able to match the Prusa. I read that the 12V heat-bed and the hot-end/extruder on the CR-10s do make it less easy to print ABS/HIPS.

Looking forward to your feedback

For printing models, you should consider a resin printer: Anycubic Photon is becoming very popular with model makers. I have one and love it.

FDM is okay for large models where up close detail isn't as necessary. Personally having a FDM with a large build plate AND a resin printer gives you both options to mix and match based upon your needs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 3d_Rail

As a reminder, i plan to be printing in HIPS almost exclusively, and i am a bit worried if the CR-10S will be able to match the Prusa. I read that the 12V heat-bed and the hot-end/extruder on the CR-10s do make it less easy to print ABS/HIPS.
Looking forward to your feedback

---

FYI: For about $70 you can upgrade a creality to a 120v heated bed. I have the Creality S4 (16" bed) and it heats to 110c in about 2 minutes.

Thank you very much for the reply!

I recently saw some photos of FDM printed details on a MK3 and it looked very promising on geometric shapes. For other uses for sure the DLP/SLA looks better, the Photon does look very good and their slicer supposedly works in linux (under Wine or similar).

there is a video you need to watch.
Guy has a $200 creality ender 3 and is making little game models that once painted look as good as sla - to me anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDW7g3JOqLA&t=450s

Actually check out all his stuff - seesm to just print game related models: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr_...N-E1y7w/videos

Very interesting link there! I must say it really puzzled me to see this result being 3 times cheaper than the MK3! Indeed these results look very close to DLP prints. I am wondering though how long it will take in reality to print structures and vehicles given these settings.

lol don't hold your breath - if you want a high quality print, expect it to take time.
But bear in mind it will still be quicker than post processing resin prints. Not to mention, cleaner and less smelly.

The more resin videos i see, the more I don't want a resin printer lol

There is a cheap option.
get a budget smartphone, around $100.
Then get an olo/ono resin printer for $100
https://www.ono3d.net/homepage-2/

True, cleaning up and post processing on a resin does sound like too much in comparison to an FDM. I am looking into the ender 3 now, possibly as a first step before a MK3. Still puzzled about the performance of the Ender in comparison to more expensive solutions like the MK3.

it's all down to tuning and stability.
The ender has a very stable frame. Uses 20x40 aluminium extrusion.

bear in mind these are all opensource machines. So everybody knows what everybody else is doing.

Different stepper drivers don't make anywhere near as much difference as people say they do.
The mk3 has some cool gear, but take away the removeable bed, levelling system and extruder and you've got a fairly basic machine underneath.

Yes all the little tweaks do add up.
Also bear in mind that josef prusa is a relatively small scale operation compared to the big chinese factories that are curning this stuff out wholesale. Economies of scale :-)

Valid points aardvark!

The extruded aluminium frame does look like an improvement with respect to stability over the MK3.

The 24V power to the heated bed is another important improvement in my book (since i am interested in printing HIPS and not PLA).

The removable steel bed and the auto-leveling are VERY important bits, but i valued even more the software/support quality that comes along with the MK3 vs lets say the Ender, hence my preference towards the MK3. But then again, as i said, at 250eu, i could try the ender as a 1st printer and then move onto a MK3.

software and support are relative non-issues.
Those you will get 99% from the user community and youtube.

Get simplify3d, best slicer around and the slicer is the most important piece of 3d printing software.
Not cheap, but worth the money.

Fair points. I watched the video you mentioned above and a few more on the topic (reviews and recommended upgrades). It seems that the ender does get very nice results (but after having dealt with some issues). Again, i really appreciate the results obtained, it's advantages and the great price, but now i come to understand some of the reasons behind the price difference (ihmo), including the ones that you presented earlier on. Still, it is a VERY interesting choice (the Ender) that i will seriously consider as i previously said.