Recomend printer? Noob w/ spacific needs & budget.

Hello all! I'm new to both this forum & 3d printing. I have been shopping around for my first 3d printer, and am quite surprised by the wide variety on the market. Can I get some answers & recommendations from those more experienced than I am? I have questions regarding printers, scanners and capabilities of both. I know there's a lot of question that I'm asking, so please bear with me. I build full blown custom scale model cars for a hobby (1:25 scale) and want to use a 3d printer to make 1 of a kind custom parts & bodies. I have 30 years experience with building models, and think that 3d printers can take my hobby in a whole new direction. I have limited experience with CAD & blueprints so I can probably handle the design end of 3d printing.

First question: Model car bodies can be quite thin, in some areas they can tapper to less than 1 MM in thickness. The thicker areas are usually no more than a couple MM in thickness. Can I print a body? I'm thinking there would be warping & rigidity issues. Can this be addressed by reinforcing the body with some sort of gusset during the printing process? Reinforcements that can be removed after printing? Any suggestions for making something so thin that wont get warped or twisted?

Second question: Models can have very small & fine detail, such as emblems, lettering, moldings, locks, ect. What is the likelihood of being able to successfully print such small details?

Third question: In addition to printing bodies, I also want to print parts such as engine blocks, carbs, air cleaners, seats, wheels, superchargers, mirrors, ect. These parts can get pretty small. Can 3d printers make a model car part as small as a 1/4 of an inch & still show good detail?

fourth question: Would the 3d scanner in the XYZ Da Vinci AiO printer with the built in scanner be able to pick up on the fine details of model car bodies & parts (such as the details of an engine block, or the lettering, door jambs, or moldings of a model car body)? or would I be better off with a separate scanner.

fifth question: If a separate scanner is better, then which one would work best for fine details?

sixth question: Can someone recommend some CAD software that will work with both the printer & scanner?

Printer requirements so far:
1. print size of 8 inches long x 4 inched wide x 4 inches tall for a car body.
2. minimum print size for car parts would be 1/4 inch
3. My budget for a printer is no more than $700. But obviously, the cheaper, the better.
4. not interested in building a printer (d.i.y kit). Looking for plug & play.
5. No need for duel filament printers. Single color / material is fine.
6. PLA is fine, no need for ABS or exotic filaments.
7. since I am a rookie, I think the "simpler is better" approach is the way to go. So a printer that is not excessively complicated is a good idea. I'm no dummy & I'm quite familiar with machinery, but, with all the learning I have to do with 3d printing, I'm looking to simplify things if possible.
8. which printer is my best option?
9. which scanner is my best option?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions here, but I do have specific needs with a 3d printer. Just trying to avoid buying the wrong one.

I think my biggest issue is the fine detail in print quality, and of course, an affordable price.

Any answers & help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

I don't know that much about scanners, but there are a lot of requirements you have. It is hard to get good accuracy and an 8x4x4 build size for under $700. I would definitely take a look at this. The Printrbot Simple fits all of your requirements except for build size (It's 6"x6"x6"). The Zortrax M200 is exactly what you want except that it is $2,000. My advice is to wait a year or two and watch the price go down. A year ago, a printer with a 5x5x5 build volume was about $1,000, and now you can get one for $400.

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Originally Posted by cmot

I don't know that much about scanners, but there are a lot of requirements you have. It is hard to get good accuracy and an 8x4x4 build size for under $700. I would definitely take a look at this. The Printrbot Simple fits all of your requirements except for build size (It's 6"x6"x6"). The Zortrax M200 is exactly what you want except that it is $2,000. My advice is to wait a year or two and watch the price go down. A year ago, a printer with a 5x5x5 build volume was about $1,000, and now you can get one for $400.

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I was looking at the printerbot simple as one of the printers I am interested in, so we are on the same page on that. The simple comes standard with a 6x6x6 bed for $600. As a $125 upgrade, they offer a 10x6x6 bed. With this upgrade, this printer fits my size & price requirements. Have you (or anyone else reading this) used the printerbot simple? How good is it for fine detail? Quality? Customer support?
Thanks for the reply!

Cool! I never knew about the bed upgrade! I have used a Printrbot Simple, although I have a MakerBot Replicator Mini. I would not reccomend a MakerBot, though. I've had to many problems with extruders jamming. The Printrbot has pretty good detail, although like I said, it is hard to get amazing detail with a 3D printer. To answer some of your other questions, something that is 1mm thin would print, but would be pretty flimsy. The Printrbot Simple uses Cura as their software, and that works pretty well and is easy to use. If you had a perfectly calibrated printer, like Make: does, you could get results like the spaceman on this page. That model probably used supports (Stuff that the printer prints to support overhangs) which would take some time to get off. Try looking at the 3D view on the Make: page. I have not had any experience with Printrbot customer support because I don't own one.

first off - you're going to need to spend more than $700

secondly it sounds like you're one of these detail obsessives we get round here so you'll most likely only be happy with a resin based sla machine.

Which will definitely do everything you want it to.

secondly - scanners, just aren't quite there yet. I have high hopes that when the intel real sense setup starts appearing on mid range tablets - hopefully this year sometime - we'll finally start to see some easy to use and quality scanning software appear to work with the system.

As things stand today, you'd be much better suited working on your cad skills.

the autodesk suite of programs - including scanning software that works with a conventional camera - is very good and pretty comprehensive.
http://www.123dapp.com/

On the print size side of things. I print stuff with 1mm (actually 1.2 which is 3 x 0.4mm layers or 4x 0.3mm - depending whether it's a horrizontal or vertical layer) a fair bit. And it's pretty strong. 2mm thick parts are very strong.

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As a $125 upgrade, they offer a 10x6x6 bed.

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By the way- you said that the X axis upgrade was $125, but that is only with the heated bed. You can get it for $99 without a heated bed and you only need a heated bed for printing with ABS.

well a heated bed makes printing with a wide variety of filaments - including pla - much easier.

So if you go fff then I would consider a heated bed essential.

But for what you want, sla is going to be better - just more expensive, both for the machines and the resin. But it will do tiny detailed models. And cuts right down on post processing.

But if you absolutely can't manage more than $700 - then a printrbot is a very good choice.

Whoah! I just realized you could get a Printrbot Play, and get the y axis upgrade, and it would meet your requirements! That only amounts to $450 without a heated bed, or $475 with a heated bed! It would have a 4x8x5 build volume! http://printrbot.com/shop/play-y-axi...-bed-optional/ http://printrbot.com/shop/assembled-printrbot-play/ EDIT: The printrbot play also comes with the new version of the printrbot extruder, which makes it a lot more reliable.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-Printer-L...IAAOSw2XFUZcbh

this is a decent machine - basically a replicator clone with just the one extruder. metal frame, decent build volume and lcd screen so you can run it without being connected to the computer. Which as far as I can see none of the printrbots have.
For me that's a pretty crucial omission. For anything that's going to take more than about 20 minutes I always print from the sd card.
Means I can switch the computer off and leave the printer to it.
ALso means the only thing you need to use the printer is a single power outlet.

And printing a full shell for a car will take a few hours :-)

I've been watching the Printerbot videos on Youtube, and like what I see so far. Also like the 50 micron print resolution. Looks to be an American company, but have not verified that yet. The CEO is the one doing the vids, he looks / sounds American. I mention this because I am hoping to avoid a Chinese manufacturer, which is what I've been finding with a lot of the cheaper 3d printers. The Printerbot Play, with the upgrades is defiantly on my short list. With the price coming in WAY under budget, I may just have enough $$$ to get a 3d scanner as well!

I would love to get some feedback from someone who has actually owned, or at least used, a Printerbot.

Thanks for all the responces to my post!

The Printrbots have SD card slots on them. I've never used the SD card slot, but I do know it is there.

I have used Printrbots a few times, and they seemed very robust and they didn't have any problems while I was using them. The print quality was good even at low settings, and the examples looked amazing.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-Printer-L...IAAOSw2XFUZcbh

this is a decent machine - basically a replicator clone with just the one extruder. metal frame, decent build volume and lcd screen so you can run it without being connected to the computer. Which as far as I can see none of the printrbots have.
For me that's a pretty crucial omission. For anything that's going to take more than about 20 minutes I always print from the sd card.
Means I can switch the computer off and leave the printer to it.
ALso means the only thing you need to use the printer is a single power outlet.

And printing a full shell for a car will take a few hours :-)

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Checked out the printer you showed the link to on eBay, doesn't look too bad. But the auction doesn't appear to state the print resolution. Also, it's Chinese. USA seller, but a Chinese machine. I've had way to many issues with Chinese electronics, so I'd like to avoid it if possible (I do understand that my price range is pointing me towards Chinese). But, everything else looks good. I saved it in my eBay account, so it's a possibility.
Also, a few hours to print a car shell sounds really good, I was figuring more like 5 or 6 hours.

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Originally Posted by cmot

I have used Printrbots a few times, and they seemed very robust and they didn't have any problems while I was using them. The print quality was good even at low settings, and the examples looked amazing.

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Thanks for the feedback, I'll continue looking into the printerbot.

The one thing about buying Chinese is that you would probably have no way whatsoever of getting customer support if something goes wrong. With the Printrbot, you are paying for the printer and the support. 3D printers are still relatively new, and they don't always just work. Sometimes you have to fix something, and the customer support is a big help with that.

About 3D scanners, they aren't really working yet. No company has come out with a scanner that is cheap and gets good reviews. Cubify does have these, but I have no idea if they work at all.

So, please allow me to interject :) I have owned 8 printers now and Ill tell you right now you will NOT be happy with a filament based printer. You will be extremely dissappointed in the level of detail, and the finish work that will be required to do what you want.

Your only option is really a resin based SLA printer.

You would have 2 options in this case.. Neither perfect.

1. SLA Laser - Formlabs makes the most popular machine.. It has limitations of course. CTC Also makes a competitor to the FOrmlabs Form1+ (lets be honest its a 100% direct knockoff clone (older versions even used formlabs firmware for crying out loud)). You can buy a used (dont let them convince you its new, because its absolutely NOT) on ebay for about $880 US. I have one, and it works quite well. However ive known many people who bought them and they didnt fair so well. Its kind of a crap shoot. Although because its done through ebay and paypal you have the power. I demanded half my money back and got it when my LCD burned out (lcd is useless and not needed anyway). The other drawback is depending on what you are printing, the resolution in the XY axis is not as good as the Z (still better than filament). The z axis (contrary to what the ebay sellers say) is only .1mm, which when coupled with resin SLA is actually quite good and i think you would be happy there. oh and the build area wouldnt get you where you want.

2. Better option (more expensive) is DLP. DLP would fit most of your requirements, and depending on what you want, could fit your build area. The most popular DLP printers are the Titan 1 from Kudo3d, B9Creator Pro, and i would say gaining popularity is the Muve3d DLP, which i own. DLP gives you the benefit of INSANE resolutions in the Z, but also the XY. I am printing insanely detailed items (people use them for jewelry as well).
You cant get any DLP printer anywhere near your $700 unless you build it yourself.

Sorry to be debbie downer, but take it from a detail whore, you wont be happy with FDM.

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Originally Posted by cmot

About 3D scanners, they aren't really working yet. No company has come out with a scanner that is cheap and gets good reviews. Cubify does have these, but I have no idea if they work at all.

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I was specifically looking at Cubify, the one that looks like a staple gun.

And I completely agree with you about the Chinese customer support. Language barrier, time zone difference, inferior build quality, inferior parts quality, Shipping a printer back to China for a return, ect. Sounds like a lot of hassle to me. I know I sound like I'm preaching about Chinese electronics here, but that's because I'm biased. I work for an AMERICAN electronics manufacturer. A dying breed. I'm proud of the fact that the electronics we make are vastly superior to the Chinese. I can tell you from personal experience that the Chinese can't touch the quality control that we use everyday. We get top dollar for our electronic parts for a reason.

From what I've seen on Printerbots website, and their Youtube videos, Printerbot looks like they are on the right track with their products.

Dunginhawk -
I'm still doing my homework on the various types of 3d printers. Due to the price difference I've shied away from resin. I have not seen many finished products that have the detail I'm looking for. And, what I have seen that had nice detail, the people who posted them on line didn't say what kind of printer they used. From what I've seen with FDM, FFF, ect, the thing about their detail is all the horizontal lines. Am I correct in thinking that filling with body putty & sanding will fix that? I'm quite used to doing that with model cars, and not afraid of finish work. Most of the 3d items that I've seen are raw plastic, nothing more than some minor clean up. What I'm looking to do is model cars, which would be painted. If it's painted, then filling & sanding would not be visible in the finished product.

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Originally Posted by ScaleModelBuilder

Dunginhawk -
I'm still doing my homework on the various types of 3d printers. Due to the price difference I've shied away from resin. I have not seen many finished products that have the detail I'm looking for. And, what I have seen that had nice detail, the people who posted them on line didn't say what kind of printer they used. From what I've seen with FDM, FFF, ect, the thing about their detail is all the horizontal lines. Am I correct in thinking that filling with body putty & sanding will fix that? I'm quite used to doing that with model cars, and not afraid of finish work. Most of the 3d items that I've seen are raw plastic, nothing more than some minor clean up. What I'm looking to do is model cars, which would be painted. If it's painted, then filling & sanding would not be visible in the finished product.

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Well, you mentioned needing to get things down to a taper of 1mm or less, and to see details in your logos, emblems etc... You may be able to taper on FDM, but i doubt you are going to get much detail in the emblems etc.

Im not working for a resin based printing company lol, but i just think overall you will be dissapointed in FDM for what you need/want. especially at your budget level

what he said - which is exactly what I said :-)

The staple gun scanners get reviews from 'bloody awful' all the way up to 'almost works'
Like i said, at the moment you can't get a decent scanner for under about $600 and they're still very much in the beta phase as far as software goes.

Print resolution for makerbot clones varies between 0.1mm down to 0.05mm - depending on the frame mostly.
My wooden framed creator x will do 0.1mm while my solid metal framed klic-n-print will go down to 0,05.
Not that I will EVER print anything that takes that long.

Also bear in mind that resolution is not just down to the horizontal layers. It's also down to the bead diameter as well. On most machines this is between 0.4 - 0.5 mm from 0.4mm nozzle.
This is the main limit to fine detail.

Forget the scanner for now and start saving up for an sla machine.
Check out brumbaers prints. Small figures awesome detail: http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.php?16648-Ogres-for-a-tabletop-game

As far as support goes, you'll most likely fix it yourself - no matter what goes wrong. And parts for the makerbot clones are readily available pretty much everywhere. As indeed are parts for the printrbots.
Anything that's not hardware related - you'll be looking for answers in forums.
Support for the better cheap desktop machines isn't really there and isn't really needed.

I've looked at the CTC resin printer on eBay and youtube. Lots of negative things being said about them. Pretty poor quality. They also seen to be dishonest, from what people on youtube have to say about them. They are saying the exact same things I had said I was concerned about in an earlier post. The resin systems seem to be much nicer & have the fine detail I'd like to have, but it's just not in the budget. This is the reason why I came to a forum to ask about options that are in my budget. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input. But unless someone comes up with a resin printer I can afford & doesn't have such a bad reputation, I doubt resin is for me.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

what he said - which is exactly what I said :-)

The staple gun scanners get reviews from 'bloody awful' all the way up to 'almost works'
Like i said, at the moment you can't get a decent scanner for under about $600 and they're still very much in the beta phase as far as software goes.

Print resolution for makerbot clones varies between 0.1mm down to 0.05mm - depending on the frame mostly.
My wooden framed creator x will do 0.1mm while my solid metal framed klic-n-print will go down to 0,05.
Not that I will EVER print anything that takes that long.

Also bear in mind that resolution is not just down to the horizontal layers. It's also down to the bead diameter as well. On most machines this is between 0.4 - 0.5 mm from 0.4mm nozzle.
This is the main limit to fine detail.

Forget the scanner for now and start saving up for an sla machine.
Check out brumbaers prints. Small figures awesome detail:

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Yeah, I figured a scanner was likely to be something to get down the road, but also figured it would be worth asking about now since I was already asking about printers anyway.

The only reason i brought it up is because I truly think you wont get a filament printer to produce the results you want, period. My flashforge creator pro is widely regarded as one of the most detailed printers out there, and ive made some amazing things from it, i just dont think i could get emblems etc from it.
The ONLY hope you may have is with a Flashforge type printer, with a .2mm nozzle. Definitely dont try a .5, you wont get much detail at all.

Hi,
I own a printrbot and I'm really satisfied with their support - and I live in France. From the States it's probably better.

That being said, I would suggest this : design or find the design of a small object, find someone on 3DHubs that has this machine to make you one and choose a filament based printer only if you accept the result.

I would agree with the others, if you are a true scale model buff, filament printing is probably not for you and will be disappointing. Resin printers are probably more your thing but they are more expensive to operate, to maintain and the resin is also oh so much more expensive for a kilo... With a 700$ budget, difficult to do this. If you want to see the difference, order the same model on 3D Hubs from someone who owns a resin printer and you'll be able to judge.

id be happy to print a few pieces for you to test to see if you would like them or not... id discount it for you as well. If you want to work with me after that, we can work something out going forward for a good price.
If you are thinking about spending 500-700 on a printer, then you can get a lot of parts printed from me or others for that money. Not to mention filament costs and the insane time it can take to dial in a printer to the exacting specs that you require for these prints.

I have enough work to keep me busy (its a spare hobby anyway) so it wont matter if you take me up on my offer or not, but i am very very very confident that FDM wont cut it for you, so im trying to offer alternatives.

thank you

what he said :-)

Now what you you might want to consider is getting fff machine for the bigger stuff and farming out the detailed tiny parts to someone with an sla machine :-)

Howdy
If I would be at your place I would start by testing different printers with the same sample of your part.
Take one, very representative, with all those details you would like to see included.
Then go to 3dhubs or similar and pick few of most interesting printers.
Only by comparing printed part from different printers will give you best impresion of what is all about.

According to my experiance in hobby auto parts: DLP is the best, fine details and good surface.
PLA or any other plastic require additional work on it, after printing, in most cases.

Take care and have fun...

I think the Flashforge Finder may be good for you? The print size is more than 4 x 4 inches, able to print PLA and the price is quite good.