FFCP 2016 bed leveling question

I like this machine but I seem to have to level the bed often. Anytime I print something I have to go through the bed leveling process. Sometimes twice during a print job. I can level the bed with the provided paper. Then start the print job. I then notice that there is no filament extruding so I stop the print and re-level the bed. Seems the nozzle was touching the bed enough to block the flow. Don't know why as I just leveled the bed!

Will I really need to do bed leveling this often? If this is normal it's kind of a pain. If this is not normal, what can I do?
Thank you for your help
Bill

First, only level bed over the adjusting screws. Don't use the leveling script on the controls. Just manually move the print head to over the leveling screws and adjust to barely touch the paper. Make sure nozzle tip is clean.

OK...I can do that but how often should the bed need to be leveled? I have been checking it and leveling it every time I use it because ever time I use the printer the bed is in a slightly different spot.

Not often. Are you preheating the build plate before leveling? Don't preheat the nozzle.

No.....I have not pre-heated the build plate. I will try that.

And don't check leveling after the plate cools. Just let it be. I preheat to around 80c and it seems to be good even though I print at 95c.

OK...will try your approach. Do you level daily or...?? Just trying to get an idea of what "normal" should be.

Rarely.... Why would it become "un-level" under normal use? I'll check it every once and a while after a lot of printing. The nozzle tip does wear and eventully will become too far from the build plate. Then sometimes you put a new nozzle on and have to kind of start over on the gap.

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Originally Posted by huntleybill

OK...will try your approach. Do you level daily or...?? Just trying to get an idea of what "normal" should be.

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I agree. Why would it become un-level that quickly? But every time that bed went down and then back up to the nozzle the gap between it and the nozzle tip was different. Sometimes the gap was too wide, sometimes there was no gap at all. I thought maybe the bed was not stopping at the exact same height which would explain the varying gaps but that was a guess and not based on any evidence.

So....I leveled the bed as you instructed and am printing stuff now. I will try several different prints and I won't touch the bed adjustment. Stay tuned!!!

The switch is reasonably accurate, that's why it does a slow home after a fast travel stop. It's really hard to tell what is going on since can't see all things that could be affecting tram. There is a difference between a tram and leveling.

Tram?? Tram??
Never heard of Tram. What's a tram?

It is a machining term for squaring up things with the motion. I consider the moving of the build plate up to its start position a tram, if a plate is level then all 3 points should tram to the same location. So they are kind of similar terms. Adjusting tram to me is adjusting the gap, all 3 gaps to be either farther or closer to the nozzle. Leveling to me is making sure all 3 are the same. The terms can be used interchangeably though cause they are really similar tasks.

I am at my wit's end trying to level my bed. I have tried every way to do it that I can think of, using the 'paper' method, and it just won't work. If anyone on the forum is in or near Jacksonville, Florida, I would love it if someone could show me what I am doing wrong.

Hard to say without more info. What machine? What is the bed surface? What filament and temps? What is actually wrong? What does "it just won't work" mean? Got to help us out a bit.

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Originally Posted by wirlybird

Hard to say without more info. What machine? What is the bed surface? What filament and temps? What is actually wrong? What does "it just won't work" mean? Got to help us out a bit.

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I'll try. In order: Creator Pro, glass bed,ABS (white in left, transparent blue in right), bed:125C, Extruders: 230C, I either do not get any filament laid down, or it globs on the nozzle and doesn't stick.I have tried to level this bed so many times I have lost count. On top of everything else it prints on some of the bed, but not all of it. It worked wonderfully for a while, and then I did something that screwed everything up. I have tried the suggestions offered above (i.e. heat the bed, then adjust only over the knobs so that it just touches the paper). At this point, I have no confidence that I will ever get it to the point where it prints again.

despite what nerds say - 3 point levelling is an absolute nightmare.
They say things like: 'all stuff you oput thing on only use tripods'. Yes and they usually have built in bubble levellers because it's impossible without one.
I will never understand why they stopped using four point levelling - which is totally intuitive and dead easy.
Anyway, you don't have that so me telling you how much better it is - probably doesn't help :-)

If you have areas where nothing prints - then that means the nozzle is too close to the bed and filament cannot extrude. This will cause back pressure and blobs when it finds a spot that is further from the bed as the filament will spurt.

I have found that 90gsm paper works best for me. business cards are too thick and 80gsm paper is too thin.

I calibrate so that the paper can just slide between the bed and the nozzle, but should feel fairly tight.

125c for the bed is much too hot. As sebastien always says - 90c is what you need for abs.
What i say is nobody NEEDS abs :-)

I find it helps to remove the filament from the extruders before you calbrate. As I calibrate about once every 2-4 months. I don't find it a problem.
That way you're not trying to slide the paper between extruders leaking plastic and you get a true calibration.

I have no secret or special method for my 3 point machine. But do tend to do the fine adjustments while it's printing, as it's near impossible to do it any other way.

So if it's not printing on an area adjust the bed down - turn the knobs clockwise - just a little at a time, if it's not sticking - go the other way - again only make very very small adjustments.
And once you've got it - leave it alone !
lol
You might also consider this gadget: http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.p...lament-monitor
Not out just yet - but looks pretty good and ideal for a 3 point levelling system.

Ok, I'll try to pick away at this!! First for ABS the bed is to hot. I would go no more than 110, on smaller stuff I am finding I can go lower to 90-95, so you may want to drop the temp a bit after the first layer to 105 or 100. It will take some time to see what works well.

You also want all the sides, top etc on. I even tape up the back of the top to reduce the warm air getting out.


I am finding that the glue stick is working nicely on glass, put it on a cold glass and go in two directions. Eventually you may want to go to a PEI sheet. I am still working with it but it is promising.
Hair spray also but you will need something on the glass for ABS. Hair spray needs to be the all weather ultra hold stuff (aqua net in the purple can). Bet you never thought you'd get a 3D printer and have to learn about hair spray!
There are a few good videos on hair spray and on glue stick. Also I would google everything on ABS, there is some really good info.

Ok, I usually preheat the bed for a while for ABS. This helps the bed to stabilize and also starts to heat the chamber. I keep a thermometer in there so I can monitor the temps. I usually try to get up toward 30c before I start a print, especially if it is going to be a bigger one more apt to warp.

On to leveling.
Does the machine extrude good? Does the filament come out in a good steady stream? We want to make sure the PTFE tubes are good and the nozzles are clean. We especially want to check the outlet/surface of the nozzle and remove any goop and stuff hanging off.

I would first run a "home" from the printer control panel. See where the nozzle is in relation to the bed for height. move it over the adjusters and bring the bed close to the nozzle for each position. Gently move the bed back down and do the home again. Does it still look ok?

Ok, now run the level from the printer control panel. This is just my method. Move the gantry over the front adjuster. Use a regular piece of paper and set it between the bed and nozzle (the nozzle you will use). Now turn the adjuster a bit and REMOVE YOUR HAND - only touch the paper! Now just slide the paper around and look and feel for any resistance. No? Then keep doing this little at a time but remember to remove your hands from everything when checking. It does not take much pressure to throw it off. Look at the gap on the nozzle, look at the other nozzle is it hitting the bed? At any time you can move to the next one and adjust up slowly for a bit then the next. You may want to go around once tightening up the gap. Remember moving one will have an effect on the others a bit. As you adjust slide the paper out from under the nozzle and then back under. It should go back under with little fight.
Finally you will get to a point where you "feel" a little resistance or rub on the paper. One thing to watch for is if the nozzle is really clean the resistance may be minimal so watch that you are not running the bed into the nozzle trying to get that "feel". Also watch that the other nozzle isn't hitting the bed.

Go around to all three adjusters as many times as needed. We aren't trying for microscopic perfection here so don't kill yourself! Once you get it in the range then you will start to see how to fine tune. Remember how each position "feels" as you go to the next.
Now, we did this with everything cold or just the bed heated. Shouldn't make a huge difference. I generally do my level with everything cold then I preheat the bed for printing. Once the print starts I see how it is going on the first layer. If I like it I keep going if not I might re level or adjust slightly. Or I might just do another level after the bed preheats just to check.

For ABS you don't need to kill it with squish. But you can slow the first layer speed way down. I also do 2-4 skirt loops to see how it is going and to give it time to get extruding good.

The main thing I think is don't over think the leveling. All we are doing is setting the gap between the bed and the nozzle in three places to be the same or as close as we can get it. You are using glass so it is pretty flat the rest should be good but level over the adjusters and don't worry about the rest of the bed.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

despite what nerds say - 3 point levelling is an absolute nightmare.
They say things like: 'all stuff you oput thing on only use tripods'. Yes and they usually have built in bubble levellers because it's impossible without one.

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It's not a nerd thing.... It's simple math that was taught in 8th grade math in the states... Didn't they teach you geometry in pre college school where you are from? It's called Euclidean geometry.... read up on it.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

I calibrate so that the paper can just slide between the bed and the nozzle, but should feel fairly tight.

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Paper compresses and its porosity makes it inconsistent. use a feeler gauge.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

125c for the bed is much too hot. As sebastien always says - 90c is what you need for abs.

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While I do respect and agree with him on this provided you have everything else just right. At 110 for the first couple of layers will turn the ABS almost translucent and bond it to the bed very well. After that 90-95C is about all you need provided that you have an enclosed system.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

What i say is nobody NEEDS abs :-)

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Says someone that doesn't understand plane geometry let alone material selection based on intended use, is qualified to comment on that????

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

I have no secret or special method for my 3 point machine. But do tend to do the fine adjustments while it's printing, as it's near impossible to do it any other way.

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If you are adjusting any thing to do with bed leveling while something is printing you are a special kind of person. It's no wonder you can't get decent prints because you don't offer a controlled environment for changes and it's impact.

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Originally Posted by wirlybird

Ok, I'll try to pick away at this!! First for ABS the bed is to hot. I would go no more than 110, on smaller stuff I am finding I can go lower to 90-95, so you may want to drop the temp a bit after the first layer to 105 or 100. It will take some time to see what works well.

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Small parts actually work well with a little cooling from the extrude fan as well but your info is solid based from what I have seen. Heat is really based on print size and chamber control.

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Originally Posted by wirlybird

You also want all the sides, top etc on. I even tape up the back of the top to reduce the warm air getting out.

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About 45-60C in the chamber

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Originally Posted by wirlybird

Ok, I usually preheat the bed for a while for ABS. This helps the bed to stabilize and also starts to heat the chamber. I keep a thermometer in there so I can monitor the temps. I usually try to get up toward 30c before I start a print, especially if it is going to be a bigger one more apt to warp.

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And that is where it gets real.... heed this advice... good stuff

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Originally Posted by wirlybird

For ABS you don't need to kill it with squish. But you can slow the first layer speed way down. I also do 2-4 skirt loops to see how it is going and to give it time to get extruding good.

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First layer height depends on what you used to set the gap and what percentage of your layer height is. If your settings are. 80% squish at .1 vs .2 layer height are going to yield different results.

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Originally Posted by wirlybird

The main thing I think is don't over think the leveling. All we are doing is setting the gap between the bed and the nozzle in three places to be the same or as close as we can get it. You are using glass so it is pretty flat the rest should be good but level over the adjusters and don't worry about the rest of the bed.

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Originally Posted by Todd-67

It's not a nerd thing.... It's simple math that was taught in 8th grade math in the states... Didn't they teach you geometry in pre college school where you are from? It's called Euclidean geometry.... read up on it.


Paper compresses and its porosity makes it inconsistent. use a feeler gauge.



While I do respect and agree with him on this provided you have everything else just right. At 110 for the first couple of layers will turn the ABS almost translucent and bond it to the bed very well. After that 90-95C is about all you need provided that you have an enclosed system.



Says someone that doesn't understand plane geometry let alone material selection based on intended use, is qualified to comment on that????



If you are adjusting any thing to do with bed leveling while something is printing you are a special kind of person. It's no wonder you can't get decent prints because you don't offer a controlled environment for changes and it's impact.

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sigh. You are obviously a nerd and object to anyone who does things differently to you. Which by the sound of it is most people.
Three point levelling mught look good in theory, but it's a frigging nightmare in practice on a 3d printer.
How do you just adjust the right hand edge while maintaining the level ?
On a 4 point system you simply adjust both right knobs the same amount.
On a 3 point, if you adjust the back knob abd right knob the same amount, you actually end up tipping the plate backwards. If you jjust adjust one knob it tips in that direction. To get any kind of consistent levelling is bloody difficult.

Lets put it this way so you might understand: Mathemetics claims a tripod is ideal. Nature and evolution prefers quadrepeds.
I'm with nature.

My prints are bang on, every time. What I say works - so I recommend it.
You seem to base your opinions on theory rather than actual practice.

I'm trying to help someone calibrate a printer they are having problem calibrating. You are not.

And I think you will find that many of the experienced people on this forum do fine tuning while printing.
It's easy, quick and effective - on a makerbot clone.

If you have a printer where the printbed doesn't move in the vertical axis - then yes it would be extremely difficult. But I am not talking about one of those type printers - so it's really really easy.

Instead of simply senselessly attacking me, try reading the actual thread for a change and don't be such a nerd :-)

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

sigh. You are obviously a nerd and object to anyone who does things differently to you. Which by the sound of it is most people.

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Nope just you. I have no tolerance for ignorance.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

Three point levelling mught look good in theory, but it's a frigging nightmare in practice on a 3d printer.
How do you just adjust the right hand edge while maintaining the level ?
On a 4 point system you simply adjust both right knobs the same amount.
On a 3 point, if you adjust the back knob abd right knob the same amount, you actually end up tipping the plate backwards. If you jjust adjust one knob it tips in that direction. To get any kind of consistent levelling is bloody difficult.

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You are so stupid you aer confusing leveling with traming. You are not trying to level anything. You are trying to adrust the buils pate to be parallel to the gantry.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

Lets put it this way so you might understand: Mathemetics claims a tripod is ideal. Nature and evolution prefers quadrepeds.
I'm with nature.

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Let me put it to you in a way you can understand. Engineering and science is the basis for everything mechanical that humans use. Education is what you're lacking and by spewing the trash that you do is mis-guiding others.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

My prints are bang on, every time. What I say works - so I recommend it.
You seem to base your opinions on theory rather than actual practice.

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Wow you are an way off base. I do this stuff for a living. I have worked with rapid prototyping for over 20 years. I also many patents for my designs. My prints rarely fail and I actually use them for actual products not just prototyping.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

Instead of simply senselessly attacking me, try reading the actual thread for a change and don't be such a nerd :-)

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I have helped bill both on and off the forum. Try posting non-hack information you wont get criticized. I would much rather be viewed as a nerd than an uneducated fool with a lot of meaningless mis-guided posts.

Attachment 10040


I don't post much of what I print because it is proprietary and property of the companies I am doing the work for but I think my printer is working just fine. My fiance teaches cardiac ultra sound and I do a lot of printing prop work for her college. This is just one example.

Comparing 3 point leveling to an animal is a bad analogy. Yes four point build plate "support" is better, just like an animal does better on 4 legs, however 3 point leveling is much easier. 3 points makes a plane. That's why a 3 leg table will never rock, but a 4 legged table will always need adjusting every time it moves.

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Originally Posted by jfkansas

Comparing 3 point leveling to an animal is a bad analogy. Yes four point build plate "support" is better, just like an animal does better on 4 legs, however 3 point leveling is much easier. 3 points makes a plane. That's why a 3 leg table will never rock, but a 4 legged table will always need adjusting every time it moves.

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The table analogy is spot on. 4 or more act as stabilizer for lateral load conditions as they allow that table to be more stable as the loads shift. Animals bodies are compliant and don't form a plane.