ABS Not Sticking to Bed

I got some Kapton Tape and the ABS temperature is 245 degrees and 90 degrees on my Cocoon Printer (Wanhao Duplicator i3) http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__85007__Kapton_Heat_Resistant_Tape_Roll_For_3D_Pr inter_Hot_Plates_230mm_x_33m_.html

I just printed the following orange skirt for the quadcopter but only got 2.7mm/.11inch and the ABS curled up at the ends and came unstuck.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1223867

I have printed it in PLA and it worked great.

Anyone know what I am doing wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Firepower

I got some Kapton Tape and the ABS temperature is 245 degrees and 90 degrees on my Cocoon Printer (Wanhao Duplicator i3) http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...mm_x_33m_.html

I just printed the following orange skirt for the quadcopter but only got 2.7mm/.11inch and the ABS curled up at the ends and came unstuck.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1223867

I have printed it in PLA and it worked great.

Anyone know what I am doing wrong?

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Change your temp to 230c and 110c for the hotbed. You're way too hot on the nozzle and not hot enough on the bed.

Also make sure you are levelled nice and close.

Thanks much appreciated for the information.

I have just done that but will not be able to test it until tomorrow afternoon. I better not let it run over night the first time but it should be good.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Yep hotter bed sounds a good idea. 110 is perfect for ABS.

Nozzle temp wise that might take some experimenting because some ABS prints better at 220 whilst others print better at 250

Good stuff. At least I have some changes/improvements to work with now.

I'll check it out lates today. Have to go flying the quadcopters now. :)

I have been trying for hours to get a good item but there are still a few things I need to work out. I have those temperatures set now.

With the correct temperatures the problem seemed to be there is not enough ABS coming out. So I have increased the Flow to 110% and I'll see how it goes.
I have now worked out I can change the speed and flow while it is going.

I started it AGAIN but looks like I need to print something simpler for a start. I have started it again for about the 20th time today and looking good so far this time.

But in the mean time I have a problem with the PLA. All is good except for items that are pointed on the top. The top is all melted. I can not see what the standard setting is with the PLA as the printer is printing. What would be an example of good settings for the PLA?

Also how many time can the Kapton tape be used.

Thanks


EDIT: I give up. (until tomorrow) What a difference a day makes and one is printing great. (at the moment)



HELP HELP HELP

Now that I had it working GREAT and printed an eight of an inch of the ABS and the ABS stopped coming out. So it was printing in the air but no ABS coming out.

I tried to restart it at the correct level but could not. Guess I'll pull it apart and clean out the nozzle.

1) The easiest way to deal with the "point melt" is to add part cooling.
2) When using different filaments (ABS, PLA, Nylon, etc.) you need to make sure you purge the hot end at slightly higher temps then the highest filament temperature. You want all the old filament out if possible.
2b) The drive gear on the extruder motor may be clogged up with filament, not allowing it to grab the filament. It's a common problem when first starting out and having the bed slightly to close to the nozzle (some cheap filament can also cause this).

You should check to see if the hot end is blocked. If so clean out with acetone. It might be that dropping the temp to 220 is too low for your abs, 240 is about right generally although it is make/brand specific. Also, if it's cheap ABS then you will be more likely to get blockages due to dirty filament.

For warp prevention you can try a number of things. setting a generous Brim is always helpful, especially on parts that are large. Also playing with different types of adhesive. We would not expect ABS printed straight on to Kapton tape to work very well so you should try adding a layer of dilute PVA or Glue Stick and some have good results with hairspray. Alternatively, the other thing is to get some Acetone and make some ABS juice and paint that on your printbed.

Attachment 9289

If you think ABS is a problem wait until you try Nylon or Polycarbonate.

Other solutions are to try different print bed materials.

But as @Geoff says make sure your bed is level and that you have a good nozzle height, close to your bed.

Thanks ServiceXP and iDig3Dprinting. That gives me more to work with.

I'll get back to it tonight.

With pla cooling on the print area is essential and will improve all aspects of the print.

For getting abs to stick, I never had any luck with kapton.

Blue painters tape and a raft are the only things that worked for me.

Best advice would be to simply not use abs and use the myriad of other filaments that don't warp, don't stink, and stick really well to pva glue stick.

Thanks for the info that ABS being difficult to use. :( I'll persist just for a bit longer with the ABS.

It seemed to stick all right on the bare Kapton when I increased the Flow to 110% and reduced the Speed to 75% but will try 100% Speed and 110% Flow.

I just put some diluted PVA on the Kapton and it is a bit sticky so hopefully it will be good.

The head really needed cleaning out but it is a bit late tonight to get started so will try tomorrow night.

I again had problems with the ABS curling up at the ends. I put a coating of a diluted mixture of PVA on the Kapton and the outline ABS stuck really good.

I had the settings of 115 degrees and 240 degrees but had the Flow at 110%. I took it up because it would not start at 100% but later found out that was because of problems in the head.

In the following youtube short video it shows the green PLA quadcopter skirt printed great but the yellow ABS curver up at the ends. Looks like it has straightened out now it is cooled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRIiVmY2NHo

The yellow round objects all melted on the top. I did put a fan on two of them but I guess I can reduce the temperature slightly also at the end.

I'll print a PLA skirt again and see how it goes.

I print fairly large objects in ABS, and by taking some simple precautions I usually get great prints. ABS has an advantage over PLA in that it is more flexible and tends to have a much smoother surface.

Essentially, all that's involved is heating the bed to 75C for the first layer, then to 110C for the rest. Cover clean glass with ABS juice (around 15% ABS to acetone, but it does not really matter, you will probably end up using your own ratio) and print a brim with at least 10 lines. Some models will require a bit more geometry to prevent warping, such as mouse ears or extra bridges which you remove later by hand. Printing temperatures will depend on the machine, and I print at around 260C if using a 0.8mm nozzle at 0.4mm layer heights at 60mm/sec. For slower speeds, smaller nozzles and lower heights I go down to around 235C. What I watch out for is "angel hair", very fine wisps of plastic. That tells me that the temperature can go down a little. Again, this is something that you will have to figure out yourself.

I don't cover my printer with paper or anything else, it's an Ultimaker 2 and I leave the whole thing open.

You can see one of my prints here: https://www.youmagine.com/designs/to...thbrush-holder

I have printed bigger things than that, so you can see that with little effort ABS is perfectly printable.

You have done some nice colourful prints.

With my Cocoon Printer (Wanhao Duplicator i3) can I just put glass on top of my bed and if so what thickness is used?

Thanks for the additional information.

I failed. It did not warp but one end came off and went crunch crunch with the head until I stopped it

I was on 75 degrees on the bed and 240 degrees. I thought it was a bit hot and took it to 230 degrees and 10 seconds later one end came off. Reducing the temperature may not have caused it to come off?

Probably hard to do as it it fairly long and the sides are very thin.

I got to .08" before it came off. The rest was stuck good and put the diluted PVA on the Kapton.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Firepower

I failed. It did not warp but one end came off and went crunch crunch with the head until I stopped it

I was on 75 degrees on the bed and 240 degrees. I thought it was a bit hot and took it to 230 degrees and 10 seconds later one end came off. Reducing the temperature may not have caused it to come off?

Probably hard to do as it it fairly long and the sides are very thin.

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You will want the bed at 110C once the print has started. I start with 75C then ramp up to 110C after the bottom layer in order to reduce waiting times for the bed to heat up. So that's your first problem. Nozzle temperature should not affect bed adhesion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Firepower

I got to .08" before it came off. The rest was stuck good and put the diluted PVA on the Kapton.

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Was that a mis-type, and did you mean "diluted ABS"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danilius

You will want the bed at 110C .....

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we second this, 75C is too low for the heated bed for ABS, 100-110 is more usual.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danilius

You will want the bed at 110C once the print has started. I start with 75C then ramp up to 110C after the bottom layer in order to reduce waiting times for the bed to heat up. So that's your first problem. Nozzle temperature should not affect bed adhesion.



Was that a mis-type, and did you mean "diluted ABS"?

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I did use diluted PVA glue but I'll use the diluted ABS next time and I have plenty of lacquer thinners.

The PVA made it stick a lot better on the kapton.

Hi iDig3Dprinting

I am inn the process of changing back to PLA to do a few things. I could not push through the PLA but must have been I did not have the new PLA lined up with the hole. So I pulled the head apart but it was easy to push through the ABS.

The ABS kept bending up from the ends at the 100-110 and it was mentioned to try the 75 degrees for the first few layers. I'll get back to ABS sometime soon but will try PLA for a while.

Wondered if I could just put glass on my bed and what thickness glass if you are you are using glass. Mine is a Cocoon Printer (Wanhao Duplicator i3).

Seeing I am only new to the 3D printing it is good to see the PLA works great.

I'll get back to the ABS soon and thanks for all the information.Attachment 9316

I get better results with abs than with pla
but
with abs I get the corner lifting
with pla I get strings
To resolve my abs corner lifting I add a custom brim to my print, about 5 to 10mm wide, depending on the size of the print, and 0.5mm thick. That does the trick for me. Then I trim off post print. I think the secret formula has something to do with how tall the print is. The taller the print, the more time it has on the hot bed, and a wider brim is needed. It's proportional I think.
to make abs or pla stick to my bed I use http://www.geckotek3d.com/
I love it. no tape no glue no muss no fuss
But always remember Levelness is next to Godliness
:)
...and the almighty z offset

Thanks for the information. A mate also said he only uses ABS.

I have not eventuated into doing changes for extra brim as yet. I have not worked that out yet but I have loaded a couple of programs to make changes. I guess I was not printing the easiest thing with ABS being roughly five inches long and 1.5 inches wide and very thin sides. Nice GeckoTec plate you are using. There is no trouble with the Kapton and diluted PVA glue as it takes over 5 minutes for me to pry off say a 2 inch by 2 inch base even when it is cold. But I will try the ABS and thinners mixture next time with ABS. With the ABS lifting on the ends on the above print I do not think it was from lack of grip to the bed but really excessive force from the bending.

I have been getting the strings with the ABS but not a problem so far but after doing as much as you have printed I suppose it becomes a pain.

Lowering the temperature for the first few rows like what was mentioned here to help stop the ends curling up seemed to help and will get back to the ABS soon.

Sorry if I am hijacking the thread, but wanted to ask you about your geckoTek.

The idea of not having to use anything special (tape, glue, abs juice, etc) in order to print pla/abs/etc sounds REALLY appealing to me. Geckotek however isn't cheap and the return on investment seems as if it would take awhile.

I have been considering getting one, but am curious about its longevity. Any idea how long before you would have to replace it? Are there any downsides that you have experienced?

When I first installed it I forgot to adjust my z offset and dug a nice grove into my plate. Now I just try to avoid that area with my print orientation. I will buy another one eventually. I have had mine for a few months now and it seems to be holding up ok. Once in a while I still get the print that lets go, but 95% of the time it is bullet proof. I wipe it with alcohol or acetone about every couple of weeks or so. I have taken some grief for this plate by folks who print on glass. Granted, glass is flat as flat can be and will not warp. This plate will warp if you are not careful. But I am very impatient. It takes long enough for a print to finish then I have to wait 15 more minutes for the build plate to cool? No way! Not an issue with this plate. I can remove my print immediately. I stopped taking the plate off and flexing it to get the part to pop off. That works very well but it didn't seem right to be taking the plate off and on, when levelness is so important. I slip a razor blade under a corner of my print, then slide a scraper under the blade and the print will pop off.
I got a little discouraged because it seems I have to keep re-adjusting my z offset about every week or so. I thought it was this plate. Now I think it's my printer.
Bottom line - I am very happy with this plate and would do it again.

printbite works as well and is cheaper than the gecko system.

That said at sometime in the near future I'll be making my own magnetic bed with printbite sheets instead of gecko sheets.

I haven't tried printbite but I have tried buildtak.
I had a very hard time getting the print off so I went back to my gecko plate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdtag

When I first installed it I forgot to adjust my z offset and dug a nice grove into my plate. Now I just try to avoid that area with my print orientation. I will buy another one eventually. I have had mine for a few months now and it seems to be holding up ok. Once in a while I still get the print that lets go, but 95% of the time it is bullet proof. I wipe it with alcohol or acetone about every couple of weeks or so. I have taken some grief for this plate by folks who print on glass. Granted, glass is flat as flat can be and will not warp. This plate will warp if you are not careful. But I am very impatient. It takes long enough for a print to finish then I have to wait 15 more minutes for the build plate to cool? No way! Not an issue with this plate. I can remove my print immediately. I stopped taking the plate off and flexing it to get the part to pop off. That works very well but it didn't seem right to be taking the plate off and on, when levelness is so important. I slip a razor blade under a corner of my print, then slide a scraper under the blade and the print will pop off.
I got a little discouraged because it seems I have to keep re-adjusting my z offset about every week or so. I thought it was this plate. Now I think it's my printer.
Bottom line - I am very happy with this plate and would do it again.

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I noticed on my printer if I press on the bed the adjusting screws immediately turn. It is a pain. I do not think mine turn without pushing down on it but will keep an eye on it.

Occasionally you need to push on the bed a bit to get an item off the bed then the adjusting screws just turn. I might have to look at getting locking wing nuts.

Pritt Stick Power is an excellent glue for ABS. It sticks to most beds and is easy to clean up as it is water soluble.

Apply a little to your nuts as screw lock to stop them spinning as well.





(The nuts on the machine, not any other nuts you may own, I am not medically trained to make such a comment)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Firepower

I got some Kapton Tape and the ABS temperature is 245 degrees and 90 degrees on my Cocoon Printer (Wanhao Duplicator i3) http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...mm_x_33m_.html

I just printed the following orange skirt for the quadcopter but only got 2.7mm/.11inch and the ABS curled up at the ends and came unstuck.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1223867

I have printed it in PLA and it worked great.

Anyone know what I am doing wrong?

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If you don't have anything to check the temperature of your bed and nozzle with, other than what came with your printer (I assume thermistors), I suggest that you purchase a digital multimeter with thermocouple measurement capabilities.

I purchased an Extech M36 Auto-ranging Multimeter, which came complete with a Type K themocouple, good for -20 to +750 deg C. Cost was about $40, and the non-auto-ranging version would have been even less. First thing I did was check the readings with the thermocouple submerged in a pan of boiling water (100 Deg C.) on the kitchen stove. I found the readings with the thermocouple and digital meter to be dead on.

Then I began checking my thermistors and the readings I get with nozzle and bed temperatures against the thermocouple readings and found some interesting things as I progressed.

I had purchased extra ones from the start, figuring they are cheap and a good item to have on hand. I found readings differed as much as 20 Deg C. (37 Deg F) from the thermocouple. Also, I made the mistake of using some of the Silver heat transfer paste that came with my printer kit on a thermistor in the hot head, and the resistance went from 100K to almost a dead short. These thermistors are not hermetically sealed and the paste had apparently shorted out the thermistor.

I no longer use any heat transfer paste on thermisiors. Now I check my thermistors against the thermocouple method before installing a new one, and my results have been much better. The adhesion is so good that often I need to knock off the finished models from the Kapton film with a light blow from a solid object at the end of a run.

I suggest that anyone doing 3D printing check their temperatures to make sure they are getting what they expect. This can save a lot of time and headaches in the long run.

I began by printing ABS, and have no experience with PLA. Using a delta style printer I built from a kit, with heated aluminum bed with Kapton film as the interface between the bed and the part.