Black ABS

Ordered some black ABS and having a really tough time trying to figure out the right settings to print with. I keep getting goopy/sloppy prints. I've played with extruder temps from 226 down to 200, BP temps from 110 to 100, I keep my feedrate at 50 and tool feed at 80.

Any thoughts? Bad ABS?

I've done much better with white ABS and I've heard that was the tricky one to deal with....

Also I've noticed at lower extruder temps but even with a 110 degree BP the edge curl is insane. Currently using masking tape instead of kapton for the build plate coverage. The kapton had some air bubbles in it from the factory.

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Originally Posted by ixlr8

Ordered some black ABS and having a really tough time trying to figure out the right settings to print with. I keep getting goopy/sloppy prints. I've played with extruder temps from 226 down to 200, BP temps from 110 to 100, I keep my feedrate at 50 and tool feed at 80.

Any thoughts? Bad ABS?

I've done much better with white ABS and I've heard that was the tricky one to deal with....

Also I've noticed at lower extruder temps but even with a 110 degree BP the edge curl is insane. Currently using masking tape instead of kapton for the build plate coverage. The kapton had some air bubbles in it from the factory.

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Yes, had the same problems. The black I got with my printer was HIPS ABS dissolvable, which printed.. sort of ok. It didn't like high resolutions, otherwise it printed messy.

The curling is pretty common with black for some reason with me too, so what I ended up doing was OVER heating the bed, like 112c.. which did seem to help.

Then I got some cheap black ABS from Flashforge. Wow is this stuff Bad!!!! Flashforge white ABS is OK! but their black I will never buy again, no matter how you try it prints like stringy black crap.. I hate it. Full of particles and crap.. such a waste of plastic. I have a whole roll of it. I can't even use it for quick test prints it is that bad. Then I tried the guys in New Zealand, the UP Plus and UP Mini guys, nope.. their black is just as bad. I had a really really bad run with black.

Then I Stumbled across cncbilby on ebay, so far they are winning. No, it doesn't print as well as white, but this is the first black that prints normally, or at least like a coloured filament. Prints at 230c and 110c hotbed and yeah, isn't all that bad actually for a $36 roll.
The only thing is the spools are the big type, as in tall, not short and fat so while the fit fine on the flashforge, they tend to want to slip back after a while, easy to stop with a roll of tape or similar.



http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....m=131146070754

Here's the reason, as far as I can tell: There is no standard for what chemicals people use to colorize the BLACK ABS, and so not only is each vendor likely to use different chemicals, different batches from the same vendor may have different chemicals as they experiment with their processes to reduce cost and/or get their desired output. Different chemical composition (even just the coloring elements) means different material characteristics, including time and temperature variables related to getting the material to melt, flow, and set up.

Black ABS has proven the most challenging material to get the recipes dialed in for.

White ABS has been the second most challenging, probably for the same reasons as the black.

Pink, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue and Purple ABS - all fine.

Haven't tried any Grey ABS yet.

NOTE: also, check the thickness with calipers. We have seen material advertized as 1.75mm ranging from 1.60 to 1.80, and that can really throw off your flow calculations.

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Originally Posted by Davo

Here's the reason, as far as I can tell: There is no standard for what chemicals people use to colorize the BLACK ABS, and so not only is each vendor likely to use different chemicals, different batches from the same vendor may have different chemicals as they experiment with their processes to reduce cost and/or get their desired output. Different chemical composition (even just the coloring elements) means different material characteristics, including time and temperature variables related to getting the material to melt, flow, and set up.

Black ABS has proven the most challenging material to get the recipes dialed in for.

White ABS has been the second most challenging, probably for the same reasons as the black.

Pink, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue and Purple ABS - all fine.

Haven't tried any Grey ABS yet.

NOTE: also, check the thickness with calipers. We have seen material advertized as 1.75mm ranging from 1.60 to 1.80, and that can really throw off your flow calculations.

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I have one black that when extruded, displays some orange tinge to it, slightly rusty in appearance and will not extrude properly, it's unlike any other ABS I have tried -and this was from flashforge themselves, which was surprising.

I have heard that due to the fact it's black, you can use a myriad of things to dye it with, so that seems to be the issue as you said, who knows. I have not tried grey either, I've never had a need for it to be honest.

I find for me, and the flashforge, after buying the same colour of alot of different suppliers, Whites are the #1 for quality, followed by Reds, then Clear ABS, Purple (yes, purple prints great!) Orange/Yellow/Green, or anything in that colour range seems not too bad, just requires less heat.. im just looking at the pile of filament I have and I really couldn't be bothered writing them all down lol... needless to say they don't differ alot from the above, with the following exceptions..

The bastards - Navy blue, Black, Glowing filaments, Flexible Filaments - these took me ages to get right.

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Originally Posted by Geoff

Then I got some cheap black ABS from Flashforge. Wow is this stuff Bad!!!! Flashforge white ABS is OK! but their black I will never buy again, no matter how you try it prints like stringy black crap.. I hate it. Full of particles and crap.. such a waste of plastic. I have a whole roll of it. I can't even use it for quick test prints it is that bad. Then I tried the guys in New Zealand, the UP Plus and UP Mini guys, nope.. their black is just as bad. I had a really really bad run with black.

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Yep, this is flashforge black. I feel better now that I know its not all me. I may try the ebay guy! Thanks for the tip for sure.

I purchase black filament (well, all my filament for now) from 'IC3D' and it has printed perfectly for me. They also have good customer service. I had a question and they responded within minutes.

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Originally Posted by RobH2

I purchase black filament (well, all my filament for now) from 'IC3D' and it has printed perfectly for me. They also have good customer service. I had a question and they responded within minutes.

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Well the ebay suggestion was for a seller in Austrailia and since Geoff said it was "ok" filament I figured I would leave that as a last resort. For now I have ordered this since it got quite a few good reviews. At least I should be able to work with it.

Might try IC3D next time.

Can't beat the price if you have Amazon Prime. I got my IC3D filament via Amazon Prime. Two-day shipping, no tax and no shipping fees. Let us know how that filament works. I don't recall any bad reviews about their filament and I may try them next to see how I like it if you have good results.

90% of what i print is black. i have gotten quite a few rolls from www.pushplastic.com and the stuff has been really great. prints awesome and super reasonable. for the most part though i am going to run my supply of abs out completely and just print with the black madesolid pet+. way nicer than any abs, more durable parts and next to no warp.

Tell me something about 'pet+'. It's not on my radar. Is it printable by a traditional RepRap configured printer? I'll have to go research it.

Jim and all, this thread started out as an ABS thread so I'm going to move the Pet+ discussions to a new thread. This thread has way more Pet+ posts than ABS.

Look for "Pet+ as a good alternative to ABS."

Ok guys, Here is how my day went.


I took my extruders off my machine, and got my old ones out, the ones where one of the nozzles got damaged by this particular filament (I did not want to mess up my new extruders just testing this , These already cost me the stock dual extruders that come with the machine.. a replacement for Aussies is $405 AU, it aint cheap.)

The pictures speak for themselves.

Just a note for you guys, if you notice filament coming out like this STOP NOW - DO NOT USE IT. This is how you get foreign particles in your nozzle that can't be dislodged. Just stop using the filament and email them, no matter who you bought it off.

In doing these tests I used the nozzle from the old dual extruder that never had a problem, well.. guess what? It is now irreversibly blocked unless I drill it out. So there goes my spare backup extruder.

:( :( :(

Now... Some might say "Oh I can see the second shark has spots, but it doesn't look so bad"

This was the 25th or 26th attempt..

The nozzles kept blocking, I had to unblock them so many times I needed a beer.

http://www.devogeninteractive.com/pi...9_534615A6&jpg
http://www.devogeninteractive.com/pi...8_534615A6&jpg

So.. When I say the Entire roll is useless to me, I am not kidding! :)

Hello Geoof and everyone else experiencing the same problem as Geoff,

Please send me an e-mail at peterhsiao@flashforge-usa.com with a comparison shot along with your name, address and order number if you ordered from Amazon or from us directly. If you ordered from anyone other than the two above sellers, please contact them for a replacement.

I will forward these e-mail to our factory to address quality issues and provide everyone with a solution :).

- Peter

Thanks Pete,will send you another email with my details. I ordered mine direct from FF3DP.com

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Originally Posted by ixlr8

Well the ebay suggestion was for a seller in Austrailia and since Geoff said it was "ok" filament I figured I would leave that as a last resort. For now I have ordered this since it got quite a few good reviews. At least I should be able to work with it.

Might try IC3D next time.

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The sainsmart black ABS in the link above may be the answer for me. I printed with it last night and got ok results, at least I didn't have to STOP the print like I did with the FF black. Just got some warping on the left side of the print, which I am going to try to print cooler and see what happens. I was trying 228 with a 110 bed (masking tape), I'm going to step down to 226 and 110 bed. Also going to try ABS slurry to print raftless...a feat I have yet to accomplish successfully. I normally print small parts though...usually no more than 4" x 1" area actually on the bed.

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Originally Posted by ixlr8

The sainsmart black ABS in the link above may be the answer for me. I printed with it last night and got ok results, at least I didn't have to STOP the print like I did with the FF black. Just got some warping on the left side of the print, which I am going to try to print cooler and see what happens. I was trying 228 with a 110 bed (masking tape), I'm going to step down to 226 and 110 bed. Also going to try ABS slurry to print raftless...a feat I have yet to accomplish successfully. I normally print small parts though...usually no more than 4" x 1" area actually on the bed.

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Yeah the slurry does work well, but makes a mess of the hotbed thats all. I sell alot of parts, and I print them raftless so I need a pristine shiny surface to print on - the slurry makes surface matte finish when you print out, whereas pure kapton gives you a mirror like finish.

Here's a fun fact:

The FF black ABS may not actually be ABS!

I thought I would make some slurry from the useless stuff, seeing as how there is no way I am going to load it back in my machine.

So I cut up about (10) 1" pieces of filament and put them in a glass jar with acetone.

Anyone who has made slurry knows what should happen.

The attached pictures show what actually happened and were taken 24 hours afterwards, even after vigorous shaking. Notice that the acetone is still nearly clear.


Attachment 1070 Attachment 1071

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Originally Posted by ixlr8

Here's a fun fact:

The FF black ABS may not actually be ABS!

I thought I would make some slurry from the useless stuff, seeing as how there is no way I am going to load it back in my machine.

So I cut up about (10) 1" pieces of filament and put them in a glass jar with acetone.

Anyone who has made slurry knows what should happen.

The attached pictures show what actually happened and were taken 24 hours afterwards, even after vigorous shaking. Notice that the acetone is still nearly clear.


Attachment 1070 Attachment 1071

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Holy crap... that would explain the strange orange resin type substance in it... agreed, I am not putting mine back in my machine. I was wondering what on earth I am going to do with the roll I have, but with all the parts I build that use ABS pins, I might just use it for actual pinning rather than printing... a lifetime supply of 1.75mm abs joint pins.. lol

Just an update to my issue, Flashforge did replace my bad roll, and it was shipped here super fast at no cost to myself - you really cannot complain with that at all. If you are going through amazon, Tang is your man.

Lately I have printed everything using Elmers Washable School Glue Stick/Disappearing Purple. It is really easy to use and wash off of the glass. I've had nothing release since I've started using it and it's a lot easier than tape and slurry. I've used it for Pet+, ABS, Nylon and PLA.

Aside from strange things in the black, another reason black might be so hard to print is that it is probably colored with "carbon black". Carbon is the best conductor of heat of all materials except copper.

so basically print the black at lower temp then, say 225 or 220 maybe ?

Got a new roll of black from a new supplier (to me) off ebay yesterday - haven't tried it yet . But the transparent filament I bought is great (again, different supplier).
Prices are really coming down - the three rolls I bought were all under £14 each including postage (can't remmber excatly but somewhere around £13.60 ish)

The transparent is really good stuff, nice sharp, clean prints.

I'll try the silver and black later.

For the record the filament that came with the printer was a roll of blue - that was printing great, but something in it blocked the print nozzle - and I haven't touched it since.

The FF white, on the other hand is really excellent. Again, very clean sharp prints even at .3 & .4 I went through about 3/4 of the roll in 2 days with zero issues and zero stringing even on large multipart prints.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

so basically print the black at lower temp then, say 225 or 220 maybe ?

Got a new roll of black from a new supplier (to me) off ebay yesterday - haven't tried it yet . But the transparent filament I bought is great (again, different supplier).
Prices are really coming down - the three rolls I bought were all under £14 each including postage (can't remmber excatly but somewhere around £13.60 ish)

The transparent is really good stuff, nice sharp, clean prints.

I'll try the silver and black later.

For the record the filament that came with the printer was a roll of blue - that was printing great, but something in it blocked the print nozzle - and I haven't touched it since.

The FF white, on the other hand is really excellent. Again, very clean sharp prints even at .3 & .4 I went through about 3/4 of the roll in 2 days with zero issues and zero stringing even on large multipart prints.

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While I may have had issues with their black, I will never forget the roll of White ABS that came with my printer... I haven't been able to buy as good as a white since, off anyone, INLCUDING Flashforge. The next white batch they sent me was an off white, and the batch after that was white, but more glossy white off colour. Their original white that came with the machine, printed Dry and perfectly.

The White I got with my machine was this amazing snow white, it was really really bright white.. the best white ABS I have still ever seen printed. I have bought dozens of whites now, and still can't find one as white!!
Every white I buy now is a little off, or bone colour.. man I just want pure white, like cocaine white!

well that definitely sounds like the white I got with the printer. Maybe they keep the old stuff to ship with new printers :-)

Have't bought any white from anyone else yet.

Hell, still haven't tried the silver (actually grey - not at all what I was expecting) or black yet.

IT;'s such a pain to change filament I tend to just run the roll down.
It reverses the filament for a few cms and then just stops - the motor is still making running noises, but I have to pull the filament out with pliers.

I've had the extruder apart and I can't see why it needs so much force to remove it. Even with the springy tension lever open the filament does not just pull out without massive force.

That said - it feeds it in no problem and works great once loaded - it's just I'm concerned about how hard I Have to pullt it to remove it - don't want to break anything.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

well that definitely sounds like the white I got with the printer. Maybe they keep the old stuff to ship with new printers :-)

Have't bought any white from anyone else yet.

Hell, still haven't tried the silver (actually grey - not at all what I was expecting) or black yet.

IT;'s such a pain to change filament I tend to just run the roll down.
It reverses the filament for a few cms and then just stops - the motor is still making running noises, but I have to pull the filament out with pliers.

I've had the extruder apart and I can't see why it needs so much force to remove it. Even with the springy tension lever open the filament does not just pull out without massive force.

That said - it feeds it in no problem and works great once loaded - it's just I'm concerned about how hard I Have to pullt it to remove it - don't want to break anything.

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I change filament on the hour.

The Number 1 Rule...

When changing filament, LOAD for a few seconds and then UNLOAD.

It is trying to retract the filament that is causing you headaches. Inside that tube is is not 1.75mm, it's a bit bigger generally and it expands to fill the hole, not enough to lose pressure but wider than the original diameter. Feeding flushes this, and then you can unfeed and it comes right out - never ever jam again. As long as you push the spring you are OK.

that's what i do (i think). but i pretty much always end up having to snap the filament with pliers.
what you say makes sense though. I'll try it again later, cheers

Maybe I'm not feeding enough through before reversing it.

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Originally Posted by Geoff

, I will never forget the roll of White ABS that came with my printer... I haven't been able to buy as good as a white since, off anyone, INLCUDING Flashforge. The next white batch they sent me was an off white, and the batch after that was white, but more glossy white off colour. Their original white that came with the machine, printed Dry and perfectly.

The White I got with my machine was this amazing snow white, it was really really bright white.. the best white ABS I have still ever seen printed. I have bought dozens of whites now, and still can't find one as white!!
Every white I buy now is a little off, or bone colour.. man I just want pure white, like cocaine white!

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You must have gotten some that is gone now, although I am new to these printers, the white that come with my Pro today is not a bright white.

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Originally Posted by 34Ford

You must have gotten some that is gone now, although I am new to these printers, the white that come with my Pro today is not a bright white.

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I order one or 2 white rolls every fortnight, and I change suppliers every single time just in the hope I will find it again. It is the closest thing to a 'white plaster' print I have found, for someone like me that loves to paint, it's sorta like my favourite abs to print and paint.

just a quickie - filament change advice works perfectly !

Thanks mate :-)

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

just a quickie - filament change advice works perfectly !

Thanks mate :-)

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Couldn't find the "change advice" post you talk about but I'll tell you what I've been doing lately. I either added to or started a thread about cleaning clogged nozzles. That talked about heating up nylon in the extruder, then cooling it "some" and then extracting it. The semi-cooled nylon would drag out a perfectly shaped model of the inside of the nozzle, and anything left inside, would come with it. It works fantastically for me.

So, I now have applied that workflow to all my filament even when I'm not clearing a jam. Before I remove or swap a filament, say ABS, I set the head to about 110C and let it sit for a few minutes. Then I slowly pull that filament out with some needle nosed pliers. I grab the filament near the hinge and rest the tip on the top of my extruder body's surface. I then lift the pliers very, very slowly, by the handles. It's sort of like a lever with the pliers tip resting on the extruder and my hand lifting the handles. I lift the filament out mm by mm until it comes free. And, it's shaped like the nozzle's inside with a little tip that was left from the nozzles .4mm opening (or whatever diameter the nozzle is). I then know I got ALL of say, the Black, filament out. So if I put White in now, I have virtually no contamination of color and I know it's clean inside.

This is a shot of the nylon cleaning but it shows what the extracted filament should look like:
Attachment 2365

@robh - here you go - not sure where you were looking it was a couple posts above my last one :-)
No blockage just routine filament change. Push a few cms of old filament through, immediately back up and it comes out easy as you like :-)
I can move my pliers back tot he other end of the workshop where they belong.

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Originally Posted by Geoff

I change filament on the hour.

The Number 1 Rule...

When changing filament, LOAD for a few seconds and then UNLOAD.

It is trying to retract the filament that is causing you headaches. Inside that tube is is not 1.75mm, it's a bit bigger generally and it expands to fill the hole, not enough to lose pressure but wider than the original diameter. Feeding flushes this, and then you can unfeed and it comes right out - never ever jam again. As long as you push the spring you are OK.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobH2

So, I now have applied that workflow to all my filament even when I'm not clearing a jam. Before I remove or swap a filament, say ABS, I set the head to about 110C and let it sit for a few minutes. Then I slowly pull that filament out with some needle nosed pliers. I grab the filament near the hinge and rest the tip on the top of my extruder body's surface. I then lift the pliers very, very slowly, by the handles.

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You mean 210C don't you? 110C and it won't even get soft????

No, I mean 110C to 120C. Remember, it's already been hot. It's still cooling and the residual heat keeps it from getting solid.

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

@robh - here you go - not sure where you were looking it was a couple posts above my last one :-)

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Gotcha, yea, I do that too. I'm trying to do 15 things at once today so I didn't scan for that post as well as I should have.