Just wondering here: djbrowny: if / when this product is shipped, will you be issuing an apology to the creators, or will you just find another project to troll?
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Just wondering here: djbrowny: if / when this product is shipped, will you be issuing an apology to the creators, or will you just find another project to troll?
What that video isn't showing is more telling than what it is showing.
It isn't showing you the number of times someone has to redo something
or have someone else correct it. It doesn't show a single person taking a
parts bin to fruition resulting in a complete machine, then being calibrated
and set to print. I say "isn't" because they keep stopping the record.
It also isn't showing me a single person I'd want to know was behind the
build of MY 3D printer.
I find myself agreeing with everyting DJB stated.
I'm an engineer, granted an electrical engineer and not a mechanical one but
I do design my own circuits and the code that runs on them. I also do things
as a hobby like build prop replicas. I have looked at having things done overseas
and any order under 10,000 is laughed at. If you want to use COB then that standard
is a million or more.
I hope for the backers sake that cobblebot comes through but with all of the nagging
questions like no evidence it can actually print anything upwards of 15" and that the
founder ignored the forum is alarming. Where else can you tell your investors to send
me an email I'll reply but don't expect me at any meetings. Then his explanation for
the lack of a video is because his DSLR over heats. I smell BS. Now I looked into this
and it seems some DSLR camera do overheat taking video, mine does not but some do.
Then get a different camera! Jees mon, my iPhone does 1080p. Most smart phones do
and is he suggesting that as a lawyer, he doesn't have a blackberry or other smart
phone?
I do smell scam.
He is a bankruptcy lawyer, who better to know how to skate the law.
I find it interesting that your only posts on here are to attack this project.
Did you make this account for the express reason of attacking this project? And if so, why?
It looks like you have a business selling 3d printed parts.
So do cheaper 3d printers threaten your business model?
Will you be attacking all similarly priced printers on Kickstarter, or have you singled out the Cobblebot for some reason?
Oh, and your prices: are they AUD, or USD?
I think the backers will receive their kits, although the bot will not work right because the design is crap. I don't think this is a scam or that the lawyer guy will take the money and run. My guess is that he came across a bunch of printer parts that some guy/company close to bankruptcy is trying to dump, and joined up with John Hobgood to cash in on this opportunity. Mr lawyer has his own online reprap printer business (this is before the KS thing), maybe its one of his suppliers that's going down, or maybe its himself. Either way, I think he's getting the parts for next to nothing and trying to get people to buy. We all can tell that he doesn't care about this project like a normal startup founder should, and he's pushing you to buy but there is not a lot of info on the actual product. He's really just cashing in on the parts.
OK Im done here
Everything I have said on this matter has been formally retracted as of right now (see below for timestamp)
I think you can re-launch on KS too; no need to go to IGG.Quote:
he specifically states that he has received 100's of request from people who missed out on the Kickstarter, hence his desire to start the IndieGogo funding round.
14thcarrot,
Your explanation is very plausible and the more I think about it, seems very very likely.
It is the "missing link" explanation that accounts for all of the variables. The name of
his printer even fits...he happened upon these parts and cobbled a printer together with
the intention of selling the parts.
3DPBuser, I don't agree with that "strategy" either. That number of backers could have been made up with a good long video.
Zenica, I did say "for all assemblers". Believe me, I understand how important calibration is to everyday life.
djbowny, The camera thing is just silly excuses for sure. There is video and pictures of a GoPro in shot! There is no excuse for not putting up video. Even if an upload takes two days to get a large HD video posted on YouTube, that time will (and has) passed.
I really support you on that.
In my line of work we say "le monde des bisounours", and we build helicopters for a living, can you believe it ?
Attachment 2319
This right here is as critical as the possibility that backers may never see that parts bag.
The collateral side effect is a legitimate start up may fail because a "business" that never
intended on delivering is both absorbing money and leaving consumers with a negative
impression of the industry.
Funny thing is, if the cobble were truly a cobbling of already-made parts, it might help. Such as ready-to-purchase ABS corner blocks for rods to slide into; ready-cut rods; wiring and controller from another printer. Sounds like a reprap kit.
KS won't let you relaunch until you fulfill your current obligations. AFAIK, there's never been an attempt to "Refund & Relaunch" - and remember KS took their 5% off the top, along with 3-5% to Amazon.. In any event, he didn't sell all his KS slots, and is still languishing sub 5 additional units sold on IndieGogo - didn't realize backers there were that much smarter than Kickstarter - guess those 100's of folks looking for printers changed their minds.
I'm not sure I buy this one - if all he were trying to do was capitalize on a stock of parts, why go to all the sillyness of an unproven design? If he'd simply copied a more traditional design and kept the price at $299, he would have sold at least the same number. If he'd actually had a video of a working printer, I'm convinced he'd have touched $1m.
I do feel for 99% of the current backers. The 1% of the backers who don't own printers but were the comment section "experts" are at least as culpable as Jeremiah - and deserve what's delivered.
I was backing that project for a while up till the last day. Most of my questions were technical in nature and only the simplest ones were answered directly by the creator in emails. The rest were somewhat answered by over-enthusiastic backers. Without even looking into the finances of it, I believe that not one of those printers will ever create decent prints without major modifications to its design. It doesn't take much thought or research to understand that its just not going to work to the specifications stated. Anyone interested in 3D printing who doesn't have deep interest in fabrication AND have technical problem solving and reasoning skills akin to those of mechanical and electrical engineers and a propensity for stubbornness perhaps should take up another hobby. I probably did convince a few dozen people NOT to invest in it by just stating obvious facts and calling out people who seemed to be paid off to back that project. Unfortunately, fools and their money are soon parted. No amount of effort or reasoning will convince them otherwise.
Latest update says everything is perfect; they are buying a filament company, and filing patents and defamation suits!
"defamation suit"?
That is comical. John Pinette kind of funny...and that is saying something considering John was a riot to see in person!
Nothing to do or say but wait, time will reveal all hidden truths....and lies.
Not trolling, observing.
Frankly I am observing the cobblebot progress because I would like it to succeed. I am in contact with
a few of its backers to have some things printed, utilizing the 15" print area. So while I want these printers
to come to fruition, my gut tells me it won't. The fanboy club on the forum they setup is disturbing. People
expect more communication when getting their car serviced but sending this guy money and hearing crickets
is ok with them.
Ignorance is bliss.
I don't think anyone has much to gain by a company making wild claims and going under. If anything, it will fuel deception on this technology and crowdfunding and might prevent actual projects from going forward. And everybody loses somewhat from that.
I worked a lot in manufacturing and now in customer support. My guts tell me that 300$ is low for an assembly with so many components with "fixed price" (e g motors, slides, ...), but still doable (not talking about the quality of the end result here). What it does not include is support, warranty, room for failure and recovery. And that is not a way to do business : there's always mishaps, and that's life so you have to have some margin to recover. That is only my personal feeling and I wish everybody well. But this story and another similar seen on this forum did make me rethink my personal expectations towards crowdfunding in general.
First, let me say this: I don't usually expect a crowd-funded product to meet commercial standards. The cobblebot is no exception. However, I will support any company that brings down the cost of 3d printing.
One of the big problems I see with most crowdfunded projects is when they hire a person to do full time customer relations before they start shipping a product. If the Cobblebot fails to fulfill its first "early-bird" orders, then I'd expect to see concern over it. Then they could hire a customer service rep to do "updates". Until then, all these concerns people have are unfounded.
As far as the cost goes, they will probably take a slight loss on the "basic" $299 models, but will make up for that on upgrades. For instance, a heated bed costs $150 extra. An extra hotend? $90. An Enclosure? $145. Also, the creator has stated that he already has funding and the kickstarter was more of an effort to get his foot in the door as it were.
Anyway, we'll see. I am willing to give him a chance.
(Crowdfunding in general is like investing in the stock market... Don't spend what you can't afford to lose. You may receive a payout, you might not. It's a gamble either way.)
In light of what has gone on here,
If it wasnt painfully obvious, everything stated here was my opinion based on my experiences. If anyone ever construed what I said as fact, well that is their own fault. I made it fairly clear throughout here that everything was my opinion, I doubt something, or made assumptions.
Therefore in the interest of making things perfectly clear, I retract all that I said on this project. I have always believed it is possible to deliver them at $299 and I did state that, I just worried that the machine is going to have issues printing objects full size and the timeframe to deliver given lead times on injection molds. My assumptions on viability assumed a large-person team on a salary and this project might not have that. Again, clearly I never made that it was fact what I said.
Then again, with $383,000 you can have a decent amount of bargaining power.
Good luck to the backers of this project. With some DIY mods it probably could work really well.
I think it's pretty clear that all stated in this thread is speculation and opinion based on information that's publicly available about the project. There are very few "facts" released about the printer other than what the creator has stated on the pitch page of the kickstarter project. I guess in two months we'll all know how that plays out.
That's a good question, although I wouldn't exactly say they will "cash in" necessarily. That kind of implies they aren't actually intending to do much work once they get the money. I have run a Kickstarter campaign before though, and you receive the seed money a few days after the goal is met. You do not have to meet any production criteria to receive the money. The system works on an honor basis. Obligation to fulfill your promises are implied by a project creator's decision to use Kickstarter as a funding platform.
Anyone see this? http://3dprint.com/58371/cobblebot-shipment/
Holding back shipments now if you 'defame' them on internet forums.
Wow, that's ballsy. Here's some defamation for you Cobblebot:
You're morons with no business sense of any kind. For the act of suing or even threatening to sue those who helped build your business based on on the promise of a product that they paid for your principles deserve to fall into the deepest pit of bankruptcy. It is my sincere hope that you are publicly shamed for your immoral acts and lawfully blocked from continuing to do business (or whatever it is that you've been doing with all those people's money) in texas or anywhere else.
The whole thing was pretty shifty. The fact that he has a lawyer despite the meager budget only puts the legitimacy of the campaign into further question.
The first campaign was haphazardly run, it looks like he didn't even have a running 3D printer when it was first posted. The first video of a running 3D printer was posted a 9 days later, of a *calibration cube* being built. Despite that, he gave the impression that printer built a Yoda and a Dalek in the original video, and there's no reason to believe that was true.
The fact is he is a lawyer, which makes it pretty easy and cost effective to issue C&D letters as and where he feels appropriate. I find it more surprising that they have shipped printer kits but not included the instructions for assembling them than the fact that this is their fourth round of sending letters to suppress what they feel are defamation.
It would seem shipping a working printer would solve 90% of the problems alluded to in the posts I've read.
Yeah but thats how business people work. Lawyers don't understand that suing isn't the only way to silence your critics. Nor do they seem to get that it frequently results in more and much more vocal critics than what you started with.
Wow, I didn't know he's a lawyer.
This site shows him as an inactive license as of last month:
http://www.avvo.com/attorneys/77063-...t-1773415.html
It might be worth following up on that if he gives anyone any more lawyery grief. Practicing law, or even 'practicing law' without a license might get him in trouble.
I wouldn't be surprised if "fourth round" was BS. I doubt a business can threaten to sue its customers without it coming out much quicker than the "fourth round".
While I am much more pleased with the recent article compared to the last one, there are still some thing I have issue with.
Yes, they have shipped some printers, but the article implies (at least to me) that numerous printers have shipped and people are happy with it. So far I know of 2 people receiving the kit. A pre-order and a SEB backer. Neither got any instructions on how to build. After contacting Cobblebot and some back and forth, Cobblebot told Mike why but doesn't want anyone to know why and said he would receive instructions soon.
I wouldn't be so sure.
Some people would be too scared to publicly admit that someone had sent them a cease and desist letter as they may feel that that could result in further legal action, or them not getting their printer.
I was banned from their forums (and all my posts deleted) "pending review for defamation by their legal department" in early December.
They then later sent a cease and desist letter in early January for negative remarks towards them on the cobblebot google+ group (not hosted or run by cobblebot). (giving 3 statements I made)
Then, in early February when their little monster Kickstarter was almost complete they sent another email stating " Cobblebot Inc. is currently reviewing the totality of your actions and determining damages, which is expected to be in excess of $100,000" conveniently the goal for the little monster Kickstarter, money they wouldn't have had if the Kickstarter wasn't successful.
I asked for evidence of the falsity of the claims I had made that they deem defamatory and are yet to receive a response.
So there is at least 2 or 3, and of course we have DJBrownies sudden retraction of all his comments and stating it is "just his opinion". I suspect he received a cease and Desist as well.
P.S. the links in the article seem to be missing their "//" to make it link here.
It's all scare tactics. My roomate is a jr lawyer and this happens on a regular. People who are not knowledgeable gets spooked, this they accomplished their mission. C&D letters are nothing. They can be written up by any lawyer. It doesn't even have to be a valid case yet. Lawyers have nothing to lose doing this. It's when they follow through with a valid suit is when it gets serious. In most of these matters, there's no defamimation if the party has just been stating events that has happened. he would be wasing a lot of money to file a suit which would get thrown out. The other party should file a countersuit for criminal harassment and threathening conduct which he would win easily. Judges hate snobby lawyers who threaten consumers. They beat DJBrowny with this scare tactic becuase he wasn't knowlegeable and is a coward.
Heck if this ever goes to trial, Jeff, start a gofundme. You can personally hold me to at least $500 in donation and I'm sure more will support you in wiping the smirk off Jeremiah's face. It's a slam dunk case from the messages i've seen from you in public. You have more going for your countersiuit than he has for defamination.
Yes, in my experience, threats to sue are 99% empty. The fact he doesn't respond to a serious inquiry suggests he's not serious. Also, if you're not in Texas, Texas law doesn't apply to you.
That said, this is a good reason to use handles for accounts that aren't under your real name.
Handles won't hide you from anything if the case was real. A lawyer would just have the webhost and isp subpoenaed to get your mailing addresss. Of course this would mean for a lawyer to have a real case and all the legal paper work for this to happen. Unless a user make his mailing address public or somehow finds him to hand the letter in person. He just has Jeff's mailing address because he was a backer which made it convenient to be easily sent a C&D.
Again I'm sure Jeremiah himself knows he doesn't have a case here. But it costs him nothing to serve a C&D letter to someone who doesn't know any better to shutup. Unless you are some competitor running some smear campaign and reporting falsefied information about them you are protected by the First Amendment. Do you know how many defamation lawsuits Obama would win if someone said anything bad about him?
It appears they have updated their TOS.
Section 5 now also states:
"You agree only individuals that pledged for the $499 and $999 Kickstarter reward tiers will receive an assembled unit."
and
"Our products do not come with a warranty by default, but you may purchase a warranty separately. The electronics included in our kits are delicate and we have no method of determining if customers handle them safely and properly. Improper handling can easily cause damage to the electronics. All electronics shipped are considered to arrive in working condition. Therefore, should you choose to not purchase our separate CobbleCare warranty, electronics will not be replaced if you later determine they are damaged or otherwise not working."
Section 13 also has the statement about the electronics arrived in working condition.
They made a few changes turning "Terms of Service" into "Terms and Conditions"
And they added this to section 22:
"You agree that should Cobblebot Inc. make an exception and refund any money associated with the purchase of a Cobblebot 3D printer, that there is a $300 restocking fee associated with the refund of Cobblebot 3D Printers.
Should Cobblebot Inc. make an exception and refund your post-Kickstarter upgrade purchases, you agree that receiving a refund of your post-Kickstarter upgrade purchase is also an agreement that you are forfeiting your Kickstarter pledge. Agreeing that you are forfeiting your Kickstarter pledge means you agree that you are not entitled to a refund or any other form of compensation for the donation you made to Cobblebot Inc. on Kickstarter."
So now the SEBs that wanted an assembled unit are no longer entitled to one and if they complain and want a refund it will cost around $600.
Also, if the electronics are broken, tough. You need to replace it.
Don't you just love their attitude?
Yeah, I now retract all defense of them. Criticize away. They had their chance to deliver on their promises, they've failed.
Well, I'm here to add my tale to the tale of others. I too backed cobblebot. I'll be honest, I really want that printer as there are a lot of things about it that I like. I'm not going to give a lot of info about the conversation's I've had with them, but let's suffice it to say they are treating me pretty bad. They won't give any information on when I'll get my printer or simple detailed questions about the printer itself.
I was encouraged by several state attorney generals that I have spoken to over the last several weeks to file official complaints against them, as due to the fact they met their funding goals, they are legally obliged to deliver product. That is per Kickstarter's terms and conditions that anyone seeking funding must agree to. Sounds like several state attorney generals are very interested in a nice little wrapped up class action suit that could form out of this.
The are rather nasty and unhelpful when asking them simple questions as well as if they have no time for the people who helped fund their company and their product.
- Blackstar
Seems like the guy should start his own law firm. The way that he made a warning about circumventing the security feature of the PDF. Get real. Even if they deliver they are not setting themselves up very well to run a business long term. All the warnings and law suits are only a sign that the people in charge are afraid. And you can't make a successful business if you are afraid of your customers!
Just participating with instant of threatening customer would have helped a lot. I'm sure someone would have come with instructions (so they dont even have to do it !!).
Can't wait from them to have all printer delivered to see them die and/or having a massive law sue again them !
I wonder what their motive is at this point. Are they actively trying to commit fraud and use false legal claims to silence their users, and have no intention of delivering any printers? Though I haven't seen the build guide, releasing it would seem to imply they are still trying to deliver or at least produce printers, which if that's the case, why would they alienate their users with such heavy handed tactics.
Or is the product that bad, and they know it's that bad, but don't want to take the time to correct the issues that they just keep pushing ahead and use their 'legal' tactics to silence any reviews or comments about it...
I would say they are trying to deliver something to try and avoid a lawsuit for non-delivery of goods.
I also believe that they are significantly overcharging for it especially on shipping where they are charging around double (or more) for some people.
But yes, it is quite a bad product.
In order to make it work you need to support the entire gantry system from one side, making it lean meaning it will be next to impossible (without additional items) to have good prints.
The attachment for the build plate is absolutely pathetic.
The bearings they have provided are horrible and are difficult to turn.
They have provided the wrong size shims/spacers so when tight the bearing assembly seizes, and for the idlers, they didn't have any shims so the bearing is pressed against the plate making it useless.
The electronics are substandard, with at least some being counterfeit arduinos, with at least one being DOA.
Numerous people have been getting A4988s instead of DRV8825 (numbers may be wrong).
People are also having issues with the stepper motors.
And they have modified their T&Cs to state that if electronics are broken, you need to fix them.
So I would say it is a very bad product.
They appear to want to make money and don't care how they go about doing it and seem to be quite happy to threaten their customers/others if they dare to point out their negative attributes.
I have had it with Jeremiah (CEO of Cobblebot). He just posted that people, like me, that have been shipped the wrong parts, will have to wait until the very end to receive the correct parts. I was backer #84 and in the October Super Early Bird group. And, because they screwed up and sent me the wrong part, I will have to wait until they have shipped all of the other parts to everyone else. When will that be? December?
This is the worst Kickstarter I have ever backed. They had me hooked with a fully assembled 3D printer for only $299. Then after the campaign ended, I was told that getting the fully assembled printer would cost me $225+ to get it shipped. So, I was forced to go with the "cheaper" shipping ($75) for a pile of parts. Then I'm told that I should get the "highly recommended" metal upgrades, so I pay an additional $160. Now it turns out that if I hadn't paid the extra $160 dollars, I would have received the same parts everyone else is receiving. And to top it off, because I didn't upgrade to the metal LCD enclosure, I'm now told that I won't receive anything to protect the electronics. I'll have to come up with something on my own. So, at this point I've sunk $535 into this and I still have no working printer. I'm still waiting for instructions and firmware, in addition to the fitting I need to connect the tubing to the hotend.
I really feel like I was deceived on so many levels. I wonder if that was the plan all along? This whole fiasco reminds me of bait and switch fraud. I'm so frustrated right now, I could scream. This has been a very costly lesson for me. I hope sharing my experience saves someone else from making this same mistake.