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  1. #11
    Super Moderator DrLuigi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dm View Post
    Hi, DrL, if I understand your suggestion correctly, our machines are specifically designed to do just that. You can mount up to 4 completely independent extruders on all our machines, each with its own autonomous temperature control. That means you can use up to 4 completely different materials. In the future, they won't even have to all be plastics.

    For example:
    - you can use an expensive, pretty, sparkly PLA filament for perimeters
    - a cheap plain PLA filament for structural infill
    - a PVA support filament
    - a conductive PLA filament as an RF shield

    Later next year, when we ship a low-temp paste extruder, you'll be able to add paraffin wax as ballast and/or filler to make the part differently stable then the normal weight distribution will allow. Or you could 3D print a composite hybrid rocket motor grain made of a combination of ABS and paraffin wax. If the current efforts to develop low-resistivity conductive filaments succeed, you'll be able to print wires right inside the structural components, as well.


    Multi-material printing is a very important capability for us, and we're working hard to make it available to as many Makers as possible.
    Ah i already had a feeling that you would do 4 extruders on it since i just seen your Logo on your avatar.
    Its just that i didnt see one on your printer that was shown above,

    I would kinda suggest a heated bed tho, Its like a must for a 3D printer imo. Perhaps a milestone upgrade if you get * dollars pledged?

    After that it looks like a great printer and very sturdy with your own ideas behind it.
    Last edited by DrLuigi; 12-27-2013 at 03:06 PM.

  2. #12
    Super Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dm View Post
    Just joined. Thanks for the feedback, Geoff - your Photogrammetry-Fu is pretty good, congrats :-) The machine you're looking at in that picture is the 12"x12"x12" prototype (T-Rex-12). So far, the tallest object we've printed on it is 10.5" - you can see it in some of the other pictures we've posted, it's that translucent vase. We have another .75" in this prototype, and the remaining .75" will be in the production machine. The longest object so far has been the Snake at a little over 13" (printed diagonally) - you can see it in the picture with 2 snakes. Let me know if you'd like me to post them here. Both were printed in PLA without any corners lifting or layer de-lamination associated with ABS. Since both of these prints achieved the state of thermal equilibrium a long time before finishing, they show that scaling them larger will work just fine. Of course, once we have the production machines up, we'll be showing that too.

    Re: heated bed: so far, we've been able to print relatively large objects without it. Granted we're testing with PLA, and ABS is a whole different kettle of fish. I totally agree that for ABS you absolutely need a heated bed. So the design allows for it both mechanically (there's enough space between the glass and the aluminum plate to place a heater and an insulator, and there's space in the Z-axis housing to run the moving cable) and electrically (the controller has the power MOSFET to run it and there's plenty of power in the 24V power supply to run it on the 12" machine). In fact, I have the actual heater for the T-Rex-12 prototype sitting on my desk.

    As some of the other large machine project also found out, the supply is rather thin for the heating pads of larger size. In fact, we couldn't find one for any sort of reasonable $$$. So we're looking to solve the problem our own way. I can't talk bout it yet, as we don't have the solution tested. But we are working on it, albeit at a lower priority than other tasks.

    Lastly, you mention heated enclosure. I agree that a controlled thermal environment would help for some materials and some builds. The large PLA builds we've done so far don't seem to be troubled by its lack. But ABS's layer de-lamination issues can certainly be helped by it. There are two major issues with including it into the design:
    1. Our machine folds - and it's a critical feature for us. We tried to include a folding enclosure, but quickly realized that doing a good job of it would delay the project by several months. We couldn't afford to do that. So we based on user feedback we decided to leave it out of this version of the machine. If enough people want it, we can work on it in the future.

    2. The Stratasys patents are hanging over us in this area. The recent events show that SSYS is going to be aggressive about its patents. We simply can't afford to be involved in this fight at this time. If you think this is not the right way to approach this market, please provide this feedback to SSYS and Makerbot. They're much more likely to listen to you, the Customer, then to me.

    The main reason we've not pushed hard on these two issues is that so far all the feedback we've had from the potential users is that PLA, HIPS, and Nylon are higher priority than ABS for them. So we've been told not to spend out time on this issue until later. Certainly before production machines go out the door, but not now. And we've followed that advice.

    I will consider this discussion as feedback going the other way, and fold it in accordingly. Again, thank you for your feedback. Please keep it up.

    Finally, we've just opened a separate forum here dedicated to our project. Please come and join us there: http://3dprintboard.com/forumdisplay...3DMonstr-Forum
    I really appreciate your reply, I think you pretty much answered all my questions, and I totally understand not wanting to get into any legal discourse with SSYS right now, they are playing hard ball and I wouldn't want to get in the way at all! don't blame you.

    The only thing I have to make note of,

    so far all the feedback we've had from the potential users is that PLA, HIPS, and Nylon are higher priority than ABS for them. So we've been told not to spend out time on this issue until later. Certainly before production machines go out the door, but not now. And we've followed that advice.
    I personally would be worrying about ABS. Makerbot are focusing on PLA, that's great, but it will and is becoming their complete undoing. You said Nylon? I'm sure you are aware of the melting temperatures required for Nylon? if your machine can do Nylon, it can do ABS - To NOT be able to print in these is going backwards!! machines have been doing it for years now, including mine and why would I buy a machine less capable than the one I already own? Makerbot want to to push PLA because it's harder for the average joe to make at home and they can make oddles of profit from it. ABS filastruders are out, people are making their own filament quite cheaply now, thats what Makerbot was afraid of, the whole push on PLA vs ABS is evil is purely a scaremonger tactic, probably dreamed up by Bre himself.

    What does a heated bed element cost wholesale? $20? $30? not really a big outlay. This needs to be in the box, not an addon.

    I'll leave you with this thought...

    I didn't buy a Makerbot 2 because it couldn't print ABS out of the box. It wasn't a cost factor. I was prepared to spend $2800 - $3500 on a 3D printer, but found one for $1100 that did print PLA and ABS and did everything the makerbot did. The makerbot rep tried to sell me on PLA and convince me it was the best, but now after a year I am glad I went with my gut and bought a machine that can print in all filaments. HIPS, ABS, PLA, Nylon, Laywood3 - and it does, and it has.
    Last edited by Geoff; 12-27-2013 at 04:27 PM.

  3. #13
    Student 3dm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    I really appreciate your reply, I think you pretty much answered all my questions, and I totally understand not wanting to get into any legal discourse with SSYS right now, they are playing hard ball and I wouldn't want to get in the way at all! don't blame you.

    The only thing I have to make note of,



    I personally would be worrying about ABS. Makerbot are focusing on PLA, that's great, but it will and is becoming their complete undoing. You said Nylon? I'm sure you are aware of the melting temperatures required for Nylon? if your machine can do Nylon, it can do ABS - To NOT be able to print in these is going backwards!! machines have been doing it for years now, including mine and why would I buy a machine less capable than the one I already own? Makerbot want to to push PLA because it's harder for the average joe to make at home and they can make oddles of profit from it. ABS filastruders are out, people are making their own filament quite cheaply now, thats what Makerbot was afraid of, the whole push on PLA vs ABS is evil is purely a scaremonger tactic, probably dreamed up by Bre himself.

    What does a heated bed element cost wholesale? $20? $30? not really a big outlay. This needs to be in the box, not an addon.

    I'll leave you with this thought...

    I didn't buy a Makerbot 2 because it couldn't print ABS out of the box. It wasn't a cost factor. I was prepared to spend $2800 - $3500 on a 3D printer, but found one for $1100 that did print PLA and ABS and did everything the makerbot did. The makerbot rep tried to sell me on PLA and convince me it was the best, but now after a year I am glad I went with my gut and bought a machine that can print in all filaments. HIPS, ABS, PLA, Nylon, Laywood3 - and it does, and it has.
    I hear you Geoff. We're also getting similar feedback from several other experienced folks, like yourself. Accordingly, we're going to raise the priority of printing in ABS up for the production machines.

    For T-Rex-12 we have a couple of off the shelf options:
    - Pannucatt (Azteeg vendor) has an 8"x8" PC-board, and I think Roy was showing a 12"x12" bed as well: http://www.panucatt.com/product_p/hbp200.htm I don't know what the cost of the 12" board will be, but I think it's probably reasonable ($50-$60?? maybe.)
    - The silicone pads that a lot of folks use (like QU-BD, for example: http://store.qu-bd.com/product.php?id_product=29 at about $60+). Similar pads abound on Ebay for $40 shipped.

    But for the larger machines, when we did the research in the Spring of this year, we heard numbers like $500-600 for custom pads plus additional power supplies (another $50) and the need to engineer a temperature control solution. That was the problem that stumped us. And given that we were hearing a strong "don't care about ABS" from the folks we were talking to at the time, we looked into how to go about solving this ourselves, and when we came up with a solution that looked reasonable after first-order analysis we shelved it for future reference.

    So having heard how strongly folks feel about it, we're going to move this task up in the queue and address the issue sooner. I don't yet know when we'll have a prototype, but we will have this for production machines, one way or another.

  4. #14
    Super Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dm View Post
    I hear you Geoff. We're also getting similar feedback from several other experienced folks, like yourself. Accordingly, we're going to raise the priority of printing in ABS up for the production machines.

    For T-Rex-12 we have a couple of off the shelf options:
    - Pannucatt (Azteeg vendor) has an 8"x8" PC-board, and I think Roy was showing a 12"x12" bed as well: http://www.panucatt.com/product_p/hbp200.htm I don't know what the cost of the 12" board will be, but I think it's probably reasonable ($50-$60?? maybe.)
    - The silicone pads that a lot of folks use (like QU-BD, for example: http://store.qu-bd.com/product.php?id_product=29 at about $60+). Similar pads abound on Ebay for $40 shipped.

    But for the larger machines, when we did the research in the Spring of this year, we heard numbers like $500-600 for custom pads plus additional power supplies (another $50) and the need to engineer a temperature control solution. That was the problem that stumped us. And given that we were hearing a strong "don't care about ABS" from the folks we were talking to at the time, we looked into how to go about solving this ourselves, and when we came up with a solution that looked reasonable after first-order analysis we shelved it for future reference.

    So having heard how strongly folks feel about it, we're going to move this task up in the queue and address the issue sooner. I don't yet know when we'll have a prototype, but we will have this for production machines, one way or another.
    Thanks for the detailed answer, I wish all prospective sellers were as researched. Personally, I am looking for a machine that can build large straight, long parts. Currently I am limited to an 8.66 inch build length, and really need between 12 and 16" for the quad and hexa copter parts I make.

    The reason I also need the heated bed is because to keep PLA, ABS or anything for that matter straight, both while printing and after printing, you need heat.. if I don't have heat the parts warp after printing, which means it needs to spend days in the curing box getting heated and straightened, and quadcopter arms need to be dead straight. So yeah, I am looking for a machine that can say, print a long flat arm, say 1.5cm in height, 12" long.. at minimum 50%infill and not have it lose shape when I take it off the bed..

    So yeah thats what im shopping for at the moment

  5. #15
    Student 3dm's Avatar
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    Hi, Geoff,

    I've spent a little time thinking about this. I think that with a heated bed an arm that is only 15mm tall might end up being straight to much larger size than what you currently do. I've already printed an object to 13" just on the 12" prototype that we have (it was printed diagonally) - see the snakes: http://www.flickr.com/photos/3dmonst...n/photostream/ the larger snake is 13", the smaller (printed earlier) is 5"-ish and is there for comparison.

    Would you like to send me a test design that I can try on my prototype machine in PLA (even w/o a heated bed)? I'm curious to see what will happen.

  6. #16
    Super Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3dm View Post
    Hi, Geoff,

    I've spent a little time thinking about this. I think that with a heated bed an arm that is only 15mm tall might end up being straight to much larger size than what you currently do. I've already printed an object to 13" just on the 12" prototype that we have (it was printed diagonally) - see the snakes: http://www.flickr.com/photos/3dmonst...n/photostream/ the larger snake is 13", the smaller (printed earlier) is 5"-ish and is there for comparison.

    Would you like to send me a test design that I can try on my prototype machine in PLA (even w/o a heated bed)? I'm curious to see what will happen.
    That would be great!

    This quad arm takes me pretty much exactly 1.2 hours to print. I print them at 25 percent infill, obviously higher will yield a stronger arm but the idea is to keep it as low as possible, but without warping.
    When I print them, they are dead straight, when I pull them off however, even after a full cooldown, the flat section will warp slightly. PLA didnt seem as bad, but since the ABS needs heat and I really sort of need to print them in ABS :/ PLA is no good even for small crashes with a quadcopter, ABS is alot more forgiving.

    http://www.mediafire.com/download/3h...u3/quadarm.zip

    The arms in question are like these:



  7. #17
    Student 3dm's Avatar
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    Thanks, Geoff, they look pretty cool. I love the truss design. I'll take a crack at them some time next week, I think.

  8. #18
    This is the streamline for 3D printing industries, including the used of 3D printer filaments. Coming From individual consumption to bigger industries such as automotive, architecture, medical, commercial and consumer products and even for concept modeling 3D printing machines works accurate and precise.

  9. #19
    I do not intend to work in PLA at all unless necessary. My first goals are ABS and nylon.

    i already have another machine on order that is much smaller, but has a heated bed and has been tested with PLA and I believe nylon. Though of course they are trying to push their own filament.

    However, I do like the larger size of your -24 for some of the projects I want to try. I am still worried that it hasn't been tested with anything that would prove that it would work at near the full envelope size. I would love to see a 23" open cube displayed to show no warpage. Once you have the machine, of course.

    One thing I'm worrying about is that at such a large perimeter there would be too much time for the previous layer to cool before the next layer gets laid down, and I don't know how this will effect things. And yes, I'm worrying about SSYS being lawsuit happy right now. But I suppose I can make my own enclosure...

  10. #20
    Student 3dm's Avatar
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    Hi, @DT,

    I'll try to answer these one at a time:

    Quote Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
    I do not intend to work in PLA at all unless necessary. My first goals are ABS and nylon.
    Understood. We've heard it loud and clear from a lot of folks. Done deal. We'll have a heated bed. In fact, I just got off the Skype with Ed, one of our engineers, who's started prototyping our solution. I'll keep posting updates as we get progress. The next time you hear about it from me will be either because someone else has asked this question, or because we have something working in the lab.

    Quote Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
    i already have another machine on order that is much smaller, but has a heated bed and has been tested with PLA and I believe nylon. Though of course they are trying to push their own filament.
    Oh, boy, do I understand this! But no, we're not going to do that. Basically, we've designed our extruder to have the widest possible material spectrum we could, based on what we knew. And we're going to continue testing with various materials (I have some cool new filaments from Taulman sitting under my desk waiting to be cracked open).

    Quote Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
    However, I do like the larger size of your -24 for some of the projects I want to try. I am still worried that it hasn't been tested with anything that would prove that it would work at near the full envelope size. I would love to see a 23" open cube displayed to show no warpage. Once you have the machine, of course.
    Yes, we're very much looking forward to being able to test this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
    One thing I'm worrying about is that at such a large perimeter there would be too much time for the previous layer to cool before the next layer gets laid down, and I don't know how this will effect things.
    We've done some PLA prints in the 13" range (diagonally on the 12" bed) and we didn't see any issues with layer adhesion, even when layers were fairly complex and took a long time. I'm pretty optimistic that there's not a step function there, as layers cool in a continuous decaying function, so a small incremental increase in time between layers should have diminishing negative effect on adhesion. But, of course, the proof is in the printing. Soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
    And yes, I'm worrying about SSYS being lawsuit happy right now. But I suppose I can make my own enclosure...
    Re: enclosure: yes, this is an unfortunate situation. Although I can't help directly, I suspect that either some commercial entity may produce an enclosure for some other purpose that you may be able to re-purpose, or that the user community will come up with a shared solution.

    Ben.

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