SLA printers worth it?

[red]

FDM printer users can have ton of issues when trying to get their printer to print properly.
Almost every printer kickstarter or launch video is a stock happy background music and showing the probably most successful prints the team or company has managed to print or the ones which show less issues of their printer or FDM technology in general. And the person talking to the camera says how they want to make or think they have made the best printer for the best price and innovative features which nobody cares about or isn't innovative.
What you get though is not 'press print and get what you want' experience. Many people have mechanical, other hardware of software issues and either rage quit or become tinkerers.
Many, many calibrations needed to avoid issues like backlash, delamination, blobbing, overextrusion, underextrusion, bed leveling issues, bed adhesion issues, hotend clogging issues, support issues.
The point of this thread is not to rant about FDM printer expectations and results. The way the printers are advertised are legal and we are being gullible expecting it to be true like with almost every other commercial .
Where I'm getting with this is, many FDM printer owners seem to suggest to switch to SLA printers if we want more reliability and quality.
I have a feeling some making those suggestions haven't actually tried or own an SLA printer and are just making the assumptions they probably made when buying FDM printers.
Are SLA printers really plug and play or require less maintanence or are more reliable?
They don't have/need hotends, extruders, heated beds, belts and pulleys to have issues there.
But is there nothing in that technology that a non-tinkerer can use them without problem?
Just a guess, are the lasers calibrated properly? Is it easy to calibrate the beam if it isn't? Are the laser scanners decent quality and reliable machines?
Is the liquid they use cured evenly/uniformly? Any known problems with layer curing?
Is the print attached to the bed with no issues unlike the ABS/other print on an FDM printer heatbed?
Any better with DLP?
Are all the printed parts destroyed by sunlight? Or is this just a claim from someone who isn't aware of the variety of resins available.
I've also heard support is pain to get to work and remove from the print.
Anything else I'm not even aware of?
I won't make the same mistake twice. Not gonna spend money on an SLA printer in the future if it's going to be as much of a pain to use regardless how good the print quality is compared to FDM.

Yes, I'm aware of the print size being a consideration. I'm planning to print small stuff.

[awerby]

SLA printers do offer better surface quality than FDM printers. That's what attracted me to them, and why I bought one. When it works, it works really well. But it's not immune to problems, any more than FDM printers, and when it doesn't work, it's not as clear what went wrong or how to fix it. I've been through 3 different replacements of this thing, but even the new upgraded one still produces partial prints, failing inexplicably to print some pieces of my parts, and sometimes printing the supports just fine but the actual parts not at all. Tech support has tried to help, but doesn't seem to have a handle on what causes these problems. So yes, quality is there, potentially, but reliability, not so much. As for your other questions:

"Are SLA printers really plug and play or require less maintanence or are more reliable?"

[There is less setup you need to do before printing, but if something goes wrong, it's harder to fix yourself.]


"But is there nothing in that technology that a non-tinkerer can use them without problem?"

[A non-tinkerer can use them, as long as nothing goes wrong. Once it does, tinkering is less helpful.]


"Just a guess, are the lasers calibrated properly? Is it easy to calibrate the beam if it isn't?"

[My printer(s) had laser problems. I'm not sure if it was a calibration issue or something else. There's nothing that users can do about it themselves, besides send it back.]

"Are the laser scanners decent quality and reliable machines?"

[Assuming you mean printers and not scanners, I'd have to say no.]


"Is the liquid they use cured evenly/uniformly?"

[Not in my experience. Some portions of the build cured fine, others not at all.]

"Any known problems with layer curing?"

[Yes; often the layers will stick onto the bottom of the tank, or produce free-floating blobs of semi-cured resin that interfere with printing.]

"Is the print attached to the bed with no issues unlike the ABS/other print on an FDM printer heatbed?"

[There often were issues with the print not adhering to the bed, or adhering for a while then tearing off.]

"Any better with DLP?"

[DLP has similar issues.]

"Are all the printed parts destroyed by sunlight? Or is this just a claim from someone who isn't aware of the variety of resins available."

[None of these plastic resins are UV-proof, but that's true of the resins used for FDM printing as well. The resin I was using required some post-curing in the sun, or with another UV source.]

I've also heard support is pain to get to work and remove from the print.

[If the supports are light, they come off easier than FDM supports; heavy supports are about the same.]

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

[taskman]

I bought a Makerbot 2X just when it came out as my first 3D printer. I didn't want to buy something to tinker with so I didn't buy a kit.
Things went bad really quickly from the start. I had take the design of whpthomas and print an extruder just to get the machine to work (http://www.thingiverse.com/taskman/designs). Later whpthomas created 2 aluminium extruders for me. From the start I didn't have much fun with FDM. I bought the Makerbot so that I could print phasers and equipment for my laser skirmish business. Nothing worked, everything cracked or distorted or broke apart.


Long story short, I found the DLP technology and decided to build a DLP printer and I couldn't be happier. Yes I do still have failures here and there, but I am upgrading my software so that I limit the failures to a minimum. The printer is so stable I have had insects fly into the resin and I printed over them. So my prints had bugs in them, real bugs, not programming bugs


I have already printed more working parts with my DLP printer than I have with my Makerbot 2X. Actually thinking about it, the only thing that I still have that was printed on the Makerbot is a bracelet I made for my partner. Everything else is in black bags.


I want to compare FDM to Christmas. You start a print at night, when you wake up in the morning and walk to your printer you might have a piece of coal sitting there or a nice present


DLP I think can be compared to ebay/Amazon. You place the order and the next day the item is at your door ready to be used










I will answer the questions for DLP
Are DLP printers really plug and play or require less maintanence or are more reliable?
- The basic version of my machine only has a Z motor and it uses the sanguinololu controller. Very few moving parts. Plug the printer into the USB port of your machine, start the app and connect




They don't have/need hotends, extruders, heated beds, belts and pulleys to have issues there.
- My upgraded version has a resin heater, but it is a seperate component and it isn't being controlled by the sanguinololu. If it fails and you are printing at 10 micron Z you will probably have a problem
- I have other upgrades on my machine that I won't mention at the moment that make life nicer




But is there nothing in that technology that a non-tinkerer can use them without problem?
- I am trying to write my software so that it works for everybody. When you start the app it asks you to connect to the printer, probably the most complex part. Currently you need to select the comm port. You are then taken to a tab that contains all your models. You can click on the model and select it for printing. You then select the level of detail, check the preview, make sure the projector is focussed and print. I could add something to the software so that it never asks for the detail, or show the preview so that if you have it configured once then it will just always use those settings




Just a guess, are the lasers calibrated properly? Is it easy to calibrate the beam if it isn't? Are the laser scanners decent quality and reliable machines?
- Since I am talking about DLP. The projector is calibrated/focussed by the user and it is very easy, you just turn the knob. Projectors have been in use for many many years by consumers. They are very reliable and just getting better constantly


Is the liquid they use cured evenly/uniformly? Any known problems with layer curing?
- If you over cure it will bend and distort. It can take some time to get the correct display time. I normally start off at 600 milliseconds and work up from there. If you don't have a wiper then you need to print at an angle or you will get bumps on top of the part. Printing at an angle will require supports and more clean up and longer printing. So you need to decide if you can live with the bumps and sand them off or live with the supports and sand them off




Is the print attached to the bed with no issues unlike the ABS/other print on an FDM printer heatbed?
- Sometimes there is still bending of the items and they sometimes come lose. I am printing a Toyota scale engine at the moment and the last part had probably 1mm lift in the one corner




Are all the printed parts destroyed by sunlight? Or is this just a claim from someone who isn't aware of the variety of resins available.
- Not sure, I use sunlight to cure the parts. I also printed parts for my laser skirmish/laser tag business and we use the respawn boxes in the sun. No issues


I've also heard support is pain to get to work and remove from the print.
- I use Meshmixer currently to create my supports. I did write it in my app and then figured rather don't reinvent the wheel at the moment. For big things I create 3mm thick supports and small things I create 0.5mm supports. They just pull off and you can sand the marks away




I won't make the same mistake twice. Not gonna spend money on an SLA printer in the future if it's going to be as much of a pain to use regardless how good the print quality is compared to FDM.
- I haven't switched my Makerbot 2X on in probably 6 months. I will probably not sell it because I will get nothing for it, it will probably go into the cupboard. From my limited experience with FDM, just Makerbot, I can't recommend it. Reading forums about FDM printers you see how many issues people have with all the parts that make up an FDM machine. DLP is easy. one controller, one motor, one projector. If the projector fails, replace it or the lamp. I can't see how it can be possible to make an even more reliable printer than a DLP machine. Things get difficult when you try to print at 30 micron X/Y and 30 micron Z, but that is to be expected. High detail takes work to get perfect

[truly_bent]

taskman;

Thanks for the info. I'm interested in DLP printing, and like the look of the Reify-3D Solus (although their indiegogo campaign failed). Could you address the (high) resin cost issue and maybe elaborate on the modifications you've made to your printer? Any comments on the Reify-3D unit would be appreciated too.

[car3less]

I ordered some print samples from Form1+ / Formlabs and I was pretty impressed. Didn't hear about Reify until now though. The building volume looks much bigger. It's a pity their campaign failed.

[taskman]

There isn't much info on their site so I can only go by the photo they have and some mention about the printer on another site

So it is bottom up, bottom up printers have issues, top down printers have issues. They mentioned on the one site that they have created a build vat that doesn't need to be coated. If they did it would be great. Where is the video of that? Why didn't Formlabs or B9 do it yet? Those guys have been doing this for many many years.

The plastic box on the machine doesn't seem to have a hinge. My Makerbot 2x cover/top is broken because I have to constantly take it off and find a place to put it down and it always falls over. So it is cracked. How long is that top going to last?

It has an open mirror that will get dust on. The projector is going to be open and it will get dust on. Everything you go sit at your desk and you bump into the projector your image size is going to change and you need to recalibrate.

Since it is bottom up the light has to go through the mirror, bottom of machine and build vat. Prints take longer.

I don't see a ballscrew there. Not sure what the Z resolution will be.

There is no reservoir so if you want to print an item that takes up the full volume you will have to set an alarm for yourself every couple hours to come and fill the machine.

No way to easily mix the resin in the build vat. You need to take it out, put back in a bottle and mix it. Is there another one? One of my clients said he is doing it that way with his bottom up and he always makes a mess.

Normally bottom up printers can't print the full volume because of suction forces. You need to turn the item so that there is very little flat surfaces. So the advertising says one thing and in reality you get less volume. I have read where the Form1 sometimes breaks it's little great that tilts the vat because of suction forces. Now these guys don't seem to have that problem, but I don't see a video of that.

I couldn't find their campaign so I don't know why it failed. It scares me when campaigns fail because I will also run one. I am doing something different. I am getting 4 beta machines built and I am sending them across the world to get reviewed by independent people and websites so that I have that when I launch. Then it isn't my word, it is the word of others.

I lost a bunch of what I wanted to post, will add more later

[truly_bent]

Indiegogo Reify-3D Solus campaign.

[taskman]

I wrote my previous post on my cell, at a PC now so can write a big easier

Their campaign
Seems they spent alot of money on the video. Wish I had that money. I didn't see any independent reviews and only one tiny working video. Would be nice to see someone start a print, end the print and show the item all in one take. That is what I am going to do. I also plan to print things like quad copters, car engines and so on. Not just these tiny things that everybody else print. I think people are getting smarter. If the manufacturer can print a tiny ring it doesn't mean you can. If the machine can print a tiny ring it doesn't mean it can print an RC car.

I plan to have a couple months beta testing with independent reviewers to make sure the machines are perfect. They will then be able to blog about the machines and I will link to those blogs/reviews. I don't know if any other company that launches on Kickstarter does that

Could you address the (high) resin cost issue
The cost of standard blend Fun To Do on my website is $65. On Ebay in Australia I can get filament for $30 so it is double the price. My failure rate with the resin is alot lower. Yesterday morning I started a print of the car engine block, I arrived home and it was perfect. I started to print the fan for the car engine and this morning it was fine. Things just work. I have gone through many more kilograms of filament producing nothing compared to how much resin I have gone through producing something usable. Maybe I was just unlucky with the Makerbot and if I had something better I would have a different point of view. So it is purely from my experience.

The standard blend is fine to print big things or things that don't need extremely high detail or extremely high strength. Industrial blend starts getting expensive, but you also don't use it for everyday printing. I printed the famous Formlabs rook with stairs at 3cm tall, their one is 6cm tall. The stairs inside and the DNA is as thin as a hair. Photos on my website. That is what the industrial blend can do. I have not been able to do that with the standard blend. So choose the right resin for the job

and maybe elaborate on the modifications you've made to your printer?
I don't want to reveal too much before the Kickstarter, but I can tell you the following
I will release 3 sizes. All of them will have a possible build area of around 400mm x 200mm. When I say 400mm x 200mm I mean it. My software allows you to print up to the border of the projection area. Attached a photo where I tested it. The tiny item on the left top side is in the weakest projection spot and it printed perfectly while the things in the middle still printed perfectly. You will see the little teeth on the items in the middle. The items still have resin on them in the photo.



My current vat size gives me a build area of 190mm x 105mm x 95mm. I have an aquarium heater in there to test heating of the resin so the height is reduced at the moment. The prototype/production machines will have a different heater that I already designed and will be manufactured next week

So back to the machines
3 sizes, sizes are not 100%, don't have the designs with me at the moment
400mm x 200mm x 200mm (total height around 1m)
400mm x 200mm x 400mm (total height around 1.5m)
400mm x 200mm x 850mm (total height around 2m)

I am working on giving clients the choice of stainless steel components or different powder coating colours on the steel parts
The client can choose no skin to save money or have a skin of certain colours. Friends of mine in Ukraine said they want a high quality machine but at a low cost so only thing I could remove was the skin.
Machines all have precision ground ballscrews
All machines have the same rails as the biggest one. The rails are rated at 50kg each so a bit of over engineering for the tiny machine, but the big machine print volume allows printing of an 80kg part so I needed to design for that
Not too costly to upgrade your machine from the smallest to the biggest. All parts are the same, except for the lengths of the legs and the rails
The client can add a wiper
Add the resin heater if you want. The heater is separate of the controller so if it fails you don't have issues with the print, except if you are printing at really high resolutions like 10 micron
I am working on a magnetic resin mixer
The machine has hundreds of attachment points where you can put your own things like cameras. Just design a bracket that can fit into the attachment point and you are done
I am working on the triple colour vat so that you can print 3 items in 3 colours at the same time
Other things are top secret at the moment


Don't get me wrong, top-down does have issues. Pros and cons to everything in life
Top-down cons
You need alot of resin. My machines will come with enough resin to fill the tiny vat (190mm x 105mm x 95mm build area) + 1L. So you can start printing from day one. I designed the micro vat this week that will be used for printing jewellery. Takes less than 1L of casting resin. It also comes with its own heater.

Big flat parts are still a problem. Using a wiper will help with that. If you print it flat you will have bulges that you need to sand off at the end. If you angle it so you don't get bulges you will need to sand off the supports and longer printing time and less print volume. So you have a choice, get a wiper and smile or place it flat without a wiper and sand or angle it and sand. The other problem with big flat parts is that it generates alot of heat when you are heating a 190mm x 105mm area in one go. I am working on fixing that in my software. My override manager allows you to change print settings per layer. So you can let the resin cool down before printing the next layer. That seems to solve the issue at the moment. We will see how well it works when I start printing at 400mm x 200mm

Top-down pros
Fast printing speed. The display time for 190mm x 105mm is 4.6 seconds at 50 micron layers. You still have mechanical time, what I call mechanical time. Currently for the car engine I am printing I let the resin rest for 20 seconds the first 40 layers and then I speed up to let the resin rest for 10 seconds. I could maybe go faster than that even. The resting time makes sure the resin levels to the correct depth. The first 40 layers the parts I am printing are normally solid and then the hollow walls start forming. I hollow in Meshmixer. If you want to force the printing of the part you can reduce the dip depth to 0 and the wait time to 5 seconds. The parts don't look great, but you get something quickly that is usable

Print big parts, print the full build area. You don't have the vacuum forces issue that bottom up printers have. When I remove parts from the build plate I use two paint scrapers from each side of the part to get them lose. There is no way anything can pull those parts off the build plate without deforming the print or the machine.

If your resin container is full you can print the full size of the container. Start the print and leave it to finish. No need to worry about coming back to the machine to fill it up again. I added something in my software to allow you to create virtual build platforms on top of your parts, still needs alot of testing. This is specifically so that you can use your machine to manufacture. Install the deep vat and start the print. Come back a couple days later and you have hundreds of parts stacked on top of each other.

I bet others will be able to come up with more pros/cons than I did

[PureVision]

Do you already have an idea on when you will do the Kickstarter campaign?
And also in what pricerange you will be selling your printer?

[taskman]

These are the numbers I am looking at. I will work hard to push the prices down where I can, hoping the basic packages will be $500 less than I have listed here. I am considering allowing people to buy the beta printers and then replacing parts for them for free as we go on. Might limit that to 5 printers

Basic versions without skins and no extra packages,
Includes everything you need to print:
Tiny vat 100mm deep, 95mm usable
Tiny build plate (190mm x 105mm) from stainless steel with stainless steel arms, resin to fill the tiny vat + 1L and HD Acer projector
40mm x 40mm aluminium frame
Most steel plates are 2mm to 3mm
Movable feet so you can level the machine
Size changing frame so you can change the vat size to what you want

Small $2500
Medium $2800
Large $3100

Skin package (haven't designed it yet so just throwing numbers out)
Thinking about thick perspex sides that attach to the frame using big thumbscrews and with brushed aluminium doors. Many of the light based printers go for the brushed aluminium look now because of Formlabs, but if I do that with a 2m tall machine it is going to look like a fridge
Small $100
Medium $150
Large $200

Stainless steel package
All laser cut bent parts to be made out of stainless steel
$400

Resin heat package
Heater electronics
Heater has its own plug in the machine and completely independent. Vat will plug into heater. All vats come with a heat pad already installed
$100

Wiper package. Need a specific wiper per vat, but not needed to replace the full package for each vat size only the future patent pending part
Rails for the wiper
Bearings
Parallel Motors
Controller
Steel wiper
Wiper brackets
Future Patent pending attachments to the wiper$200 - $400

Micro vat and build plate package for jewellery
Build plate and build plate arms made from stainless steel
Vat
Including silicone heater installed in vat$200

Wide vat package
Build plate and build plate arms made from stainless steel
Vat
Including silicone heater installed in vat$300

Magnetic mixer package
$100

Top Secret package
consists of xxxx $1000
+ xxxx $1000
+ $500
So probably $2500

Warranty
I am looking at a world wide 1 year warranty on the frame and metal parts/moving parts/controller/cabling/motors/heater for $300
This will exclude the projector lamp
The projector will have its own 1 year warranty and the secret package will have its own 1 year warranty from those manufacturers
I don't think I can give a 100% money back guarantee on a Kickstarter campaign. I will do everything in my power to make sure I don't sell rubbish. I don't want to put anybody through a Makerbot 2X experience


So those are about the numbers I am looking at. It will be completely possible to print without any of the extras. Only 1 of the 4 beta machines I am building next month will have everything installed and then each beta tester will have less and less installed so that I can make sure any configuration will keep clients happy. I spoke to Instructables to have a competition to give printers away, thinking of giving the beta machines away when done. Doesn't seem like they are interested. Might run the competition here.

I am working hard to get this done by July, but it will depend on how many changes the beta testers have. The people that will review the printers will only give me a 100% good review if they are happy with everything. The testers are: Engineering company in NZ that designs parts and rapid prototypes for their clients, someone in Australia that develops special bicycles, someone in Australia that works in the 3D movie industry (he worked on the Lego), someone in the US that has built huge FDM machines and he really knows his stuff, someone that has over 60 000 followers on his blog. I also contacted Tested.com so we will see what they say, hopefully they are interested. If you guys can come up with other US or Australian companies that might be interested in having a look at printers please name them.

I am now printing the scale Toyota engine so that I can show engineering companies what is possible. When I get my wide vat I want to print a quadcopter and the Ant man mask. I will probably video the quadcopter and ant man mask being printed from start to finish. I don't think I will be able to record for a week so will probably need to cut after each print and start recording before each print. Maybe tell me what you guys want to see. What will make you believe?

Something I have wanted to print for a long time was a PCB CNC machine so hoping to get that done. I worked on the software for the Cyclone PCB factory http://reprap.org/wiki/Cyclone_PCB_Factory, https://groups.google.com/forum/?fro...ne-pcb-factory.

I want to show videos of parts being printed from start to finish and no cuts so that people can see the truth and what is being done. So many companies show you a couple photos and alot of text and then expect you to give them $3000. Those days are over I think