Rank noob needs research refs for 3d prototype

The little I know about 3D printing has been gleaned from reviews, mfg sites, and videos (just enough to be stupidly dangerous :confused:). I have a project in mind for which I will need help in researching filament, printer, software options. I also need guidance on the right forum folder for this post.

I want to make molds for fusing glass frit into intricate 3D shapes. My options are physically making custom ceramic fiber compound molds--research in progress, or 3D printing custom designed molds. In any case, the molds -- producing tiny objects -- need to made in easily replicated quantities for the product to be feasibly marketable.

I am posting because my first need is discovering if there is a filament available which can produce a high heat resistant (preferably up to 1400F) prototype mold. What kind of properties would such a filament need to have. Right now I just need pointers or links to resources so I learn more about filaments and what they can and can't be expected to do. Am I searching for a unicorn filament? If so, my project is not suitable for the 3D platform and no further research is necessary.

If I can get past the filament issue, I believe my next step would be prototype software and printer choices; followed by production software/hardware/supply choices.

Thank you for your time and assistance.

I'm assuming frit means fruit?

Now stop and think about your first requirement you posted. Most 3d printers work by melting filament, at around 150-300c depending on the material. 1400f is about 480c. Titanium starts to get soft around there.

I cannot figure out what your end goal is here. It seems you are asking a XY problem here.

State your intended goal, not your intended process, but your end product. What do you want it for, how will it be used? THEN we can help you out.

I'm pretty sure we can figure out an affordable solution for you that doesn't involve injecting produce into the heat shield of the sr-71 (Which is all I can figure out from your post).

I need to produce custom 3D molds for fusing glass in a microwave kiln. Unlike regular glass kilns, microwave kilns allow me to fuse finish-ready small glass pendants and components in 3-5 mins with a 1 hour cooling period. In this instance I would be using glass frit -- very finely ground glass powder -- to fill the molds. As a small business, I need the mold making process to be accurate and easily replicable.

My goal is producing the custom molds in quantity -- preferable on demand as opposed to inventoried stock. Once I design the custom molds, I see my production options as 1) creating the prototypes by hand for casting and fabricating (inventory); or 2) 3D printing and replicating the molds.

Microwave kilns can reach 1650F or 899C in 5-10 mins of operation. My process will fuse in 1-2 min increments with pauses to check progress, and continue in 15-30 sec increments until done; usually 3-5 mins maximum fusing time.

Priority question because of my ignorance is discovering if there is a filament capable of printing a mold that can withstand the heat produced in a microwave kiln for the max fusing period. If there is not, or a way to work with a filament maker to find one, then the 3D printing platform will not meet my needs.

Thank you for the welcoming courtesy and guidance of your response. Your help in focusing my question is deeply appreciated. :D

I am not familiar with a filament that will meet that requirement. But then, I'm not that familiar with the variety of filaments out there. Now that we know what it is you need, One of our guru's here might be able to point in the right direction.

One place you might want to take a look is Smooth-On. They make a lot of different molding materials, one of which may fit your needs for your molds. You could use normal filament in a 3d printer to create your positive to cast the mold with, as most of the materials only require a vacuum pot. As you were planning on making the mold with a printer, then making the positive is the exact same process, just "mirrored".

Smooth on has what they call their high temp epoxy resin for mold making. It's rated to 375F, but from the description, Yours and theirs, it might be worth picking up a sample size bottle from them and give it a whirl.

Another method I know of, is using plaster of paris and play sand mixed to create molds. I'm planning to use this material in an Aluminum foundry in the near future.

Thank you. Gave a quick look at the Smooth-On site link -- great tool to investigate. Your thought on printing a 'positive' gives me an appealing option. Again, thanks for your feedback.

Hi,

As Marm said, plaster of Paris will be your best option based on a 3D printed mother mold.
Look at Shapeways for suitable materials for the mother mold, they for example have a wax material used for lost wax casting.
As detail is imperative for these molds, you need to use SLS, SLA or polyjet mother models.
The Smooth-On materials will not resist 1400F but nonetheless are great materials to work with.

I have worked with plaster before for small parts and am planning to use it for larger molds as well.
I would like to know if anyone has experience with large plaster molds and what the drying time is for these molds.
For faster drying times you can use British plaster Herculite 2.

Post pictures and keep the thread alive!

Not sure I'd mix sand in as well. If it melts glass it will probably also melt sand, which is after all unmelted glass.

Curious as to why/how microwaves can heat glass.
No OH stretch bonds and those are what microwaves mainly act upon.

But yep the clay moulds are the way to go.

Right, I'd also go for just the gypsum which are calcium bonds and the H20 bonds will heat up in the microwave.
I suppose you need a dedicated microwave for this because you will have large capacities of heat in there that may impact the device itself.
Anyway, keep us posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by curious aardvark

Not sure I'd mix sand in as well. If it melts glass it will probably also melt sand, which is after all unmelted glass.

Curious as to why/how microwaves can heat glass.
No OH stretch bonds and those are what microwaves mainly act upon.

But yep the clay moulds are the way to go.

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Microwave kilns are insulated top-vented containers that go inside the microwave oven. These kilns are coated on the inside with microwave susceptor material. This allows microwaves to heat the fusing chamber to the necessary fusing temperatures. Commercial microwave kilns are usually 3-1/4" tall cylinders with a 4-3/4" radius. The kiln base has a 2" fusing platform.

I've found several tutorials for diy microwave kilns and will be able to fabricate shape and size more suited to my needs.

I will expand my research on making clay molds. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ralphzoontjens

Right, I'd also go for just the gypsum which are calcium bonds and the H20 bonds will heat up in the microwave.
I suppose you need a dedicated microwave for this because you will have large capacities of heat in there that may impact the device itself.
Anyway, keep us posted.

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Yep! Dedicated microwave oven because fusing use and food preparation are a definite health hazard.;)

I feel like the Formlabs Form 2 might be your best option for both print quality and material. They have a castable resin which I think would achieve what you are after as long as you are talking very low production volume or unique pieces. If you want to do any sort of mass production, you should really look into having proper molds made. I don't know much about that however.

Formlabs castable resin: https://formlabs.com/materials/castable/

On a somewhat related note, they also have an engineering grade resin labeled 'high temp' which they claim as the highest temperature 3d printed material, but that only is rated for 289*c, or about 1/3rd of what you need.
They do show it being used to test the end of a propane torch, and in what I assume is a mold for injection molded plastics.

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Hi FactorFVP

Thanks for the link.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ralphzoontjens

Hi,

.... Look at Shapeways ...

Post pictures and keep the thread alive!

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Wow! a real eye-opener for me. Thanks a lot. :D

Wow! What I don't know :o ...

I need to learn a lot more, but your replies have shown me that 3D printing will take my business and my creativity where it needs to go. I will be reading threads throughout the forum, posting questions in the appropriate places and, hopefully, giving useful comments where I can.

Is there a sub-forum specifically for STL design software for jewelry casting? Because of your feedback, I think that is my logical starting point since you have shown me options for printing and fabrication while I get the designing skill under my belt.

Again... thank you!

:)

Just some food for thought, off the top of the Make home page: http://makezine.com/2012/04/05/how-t...-refractories/

I've heard Rhino (???) mentioned before for jewelry making, but I am unfamiliar with it, or other options. I'm a one trick pony when it comes to design work, and Sketch up could work for you, but I doubt it.

There's a 3d design sub forum here somewhere, that'd be the best place for this. IM we have way too many sub forums, and cause of that, stuff gets tossed every which way.

One thing about shapeways. If you're going to be printing the molds them selves, then using a 3rd party printing service may be your best bet. But if you're going to be printing a prototype, and then casting a mold around that, you might be ahead financially to buy a small printer ( I can't see you needing 8" bed sizes) yourself. The cost of a half dozen Shapeways prints might add up to the cost of a small printer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marm

Just some food for thought, off the top of the Make home page: http://makezine.com/2012/04/05/how-t...-refractories/

I've heard Rhino (???) mentioned before for jewelry making, ... you might be ahead financially to buy a small printer ( I can't see you needing 8" bed sizes) yourself. The cost of a half dozen Shapeways prints might add up to the cost of a small printer.

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Make, what a wonderful resource. I've already bookmarked it for frequent visits. A castable refractory is an interesting option. I checked out Rhino and downloaded the trial version to explore.

I agree that until I get my 3D act together, a small printer makes sense. The FlashForge line appeals to me from reviews, demos, and marketing videos; plus this forum's banner about the FlashForge Dreamer has me leaning that way. That decision is based more on gut than knowledge.

Should anyone have suggestions on better suited printers in the $500-650 range, I'd appreciate input. This printer purchase would let me learn, experiment, and gain experience until I can make informed business purchases.

:D

I'd agree with the people advising a resin printer over one that uses filament, if you're going the lost-resin casting route with a resin that burns out cleanly, or wax output from a Solidscape printer. The detail you'll get is a lot better than any filament based printer will produce. But they tend to be in a higher price range than you want to enter. You might use a service like Shapeways or 3D Hubs to produce some models to experiment with before investing in a printer; see how you like the results from models made with a printer like the FlashForge versus a resin or wax printer. Have you actually tried this microwave casting technique yourself, with a conventionally made wax model? I'd advise getting that down before getting involved with variations on the process involving 3D printed models. When experimenting, it's best to work on one variable at a time.

Glass casting is often done in a plaster-based investment. It's not pure plaster of Paris; it has to have some silica flour added to make it work. You can get these off the shelf, from jewelry supply companies; if I'm burning out resin models, I use Plasticast: https://www.riogrande.com/Product/Ra...-50-lbs/702349 I suppose you could use a castable refractory, but getting a good surface might be difficult, and these things are made to endure, not to be removed easily from a glass part. The ceramic fiber mold compounds work quite well for glass, but they're more tedious to make molds with.

Making the mold directly has some things to be said for it, but you'd have to use some kind of clay extruder to produce them with a 3D printer, and the layer lines will likely be quite visible, while the clay would be difficult to remove after casting. There are no filaments that would give you a mold you could cast glass into; even the most high-temperature plastics like PEEK would be ash well before getting to glass-melting temperatures.

There are lots of software products used for jewelry production; the choice would depend on what sort of parts you were trying to make, and how much you had to spend. You can check my site for some of them; Geomagic Sculpt is my favorite for organic sorts of things.

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

For a printer also look into the WANHAO DUPLICATOR I3

they have a US distributor and I have only heard good stories about this printer.

-Ralph